View Full Version : $200,000 for air-con space?
Amber Woods
09-04-13, 06:36
THE Government has introduced several rounds of measures to rein in the continued rise in property prices. There is some effect, yet property prices are holding their own.
Recently, I visited a couple of property launches. The showflats attracted quite a crowd and the boards indicated that many units were sold - clear evidence that there was no shortage of buyers.
I was told that, at the offer price of about $1,300 psf before any stamp duty, the apartments should be a worthwhile investment for my own stay or rental income.
When looking at the price list, I noticed that there was a sizeable area set aside for holding the air-conditioning equipment. A unit with a total saleable area of 61 sq m had 14 sq m provided for air-con space.
A quick back of the envelope calculation suggested that the buyer will be paying about $200,000 for the space to house the air-con. Considering that a multi-split air-con system costs about $3,000, I find this situation incomprehensible.
To be sure that I was not mistaken, I sought confirmation from the agent, who assured me that the 14 sq m of "air-con" area is indeed chargeable, and that the cost is to be borne by the buyer.
This must make Singapore one of the most expensive places in the world to install an air-con system.
To have living space costing in excess of $1,000 psf for suburban localities already makes Singapore property prices one of the highest in the world.
To have air-con space costing $200,000 should be a wake-up call for Singapore to seriously re-examine its land valuation model.
Philip Toh Kee Poon
acidic.straw
09-04-13, 07:12
THE Government has introduced several rounds of measures to rein in the continued rise in property prices. There is some effect, yet property prices are holding their own.
Recently, I visited a couple of property launches. The showflats attracted quite a crowd and the boards indicated that many units were sold - clear evidence that there was no shortage of buyers.
I was told that, at the offer price of about $1,300 psf before any stamp duty, the apartments should be a worthwhile investment for my own stay or rental income.
When looking at the price list, I noticed that there was a sizeable area set aside for holding the air-conditioning equipment. A unit with a total saleable area of 61 sq m had 14 sq m provided for air-con space.
A quick back of the envelope calculation suggested that the buyer will be paying about $200,000 for the space to house the air-con. Considering that a multi-split air-con system costs about $3,000, I find this situation incomprehensible.
To be sure that I was not mistaken, I sought confirmation from the agent, who assured me that the 14 sq m of "air-con" area is indeed chargeable, and that the cost is to be borne by the buyer.
This must make Singapore one of the most expensive places in the world to install an air-con system.
To have living space costing in excess of $1,000 psf for suburban localities already makes Singapore property prices one of the highest in the world.
To have air-con space costing $200,000 should be a wake-up call for Singapore to seriously re-examine its land valuation model.
Philip Toh Kee Poon
14m2 out of 61..that's more than 1/5 of the total area. This is how developers use the GFA rule to take advantage of their buyers :mad:
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 07:22
Not sure will the developer so silly to do such thing on a small unit of 61sq-m... May i know which development is this? Personally, I find the article has some distorted facts..
This project's ac ledge is probably as big as the blacony, if not bigger. Heh.
A unit of that size does not need such a large footprint area for housing the condensing unit. Authority has to set some guidelines otherwise developer is making $ just proving a concrete slab with some cement and sand screed finishes. Does not think you need such a large working space for maintenance. It is a problem with new development. :doh:
phantom_opera
09-04-13, 09:13
definitely not reputable developers all FEO projects will clearly show the size of AC / balcony in the price list ... for 1br normally is simply 1-2sqm, balcony normally about 4-5sqm
may be 14sqm is AC + balcony
i have doubts about the writer's claims. 14sqm = 4m x 3.5m. unless the developer plans to have 2 refrigerators cool the unit, the space is simply too much for a condensor - split or single.
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 09:31
definitely not reputable developers all FEO projects will clearly show the size of AC / balcony in the price list ... for 1br normally is simply 1-2sqm, balcony normally about 4-5sqm
may be 14sqm is AC + balcony
yup.. FEO's projects stated clearly the sizes. Agreed that 14sq-m likely to include the balcony + planter, etc... That's why i think article distorted the facts..
or there is a term called "air-con space" = ac ledge + balcony + planter + RC ledge?:D
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 09:41
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3213/Images/regent_residence_typeA1.jpg
an example of how a/c ledge has been abused.
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 09:45
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3283/Images/la_vida_typeB1.jpg
this unit is 60 sq m. it has TWO a/c ledges. add the 2 areas up, may have 14 sq m?
These are free GFAs given by URA to encourage more sustainable design.
yup.. FEO's projects stated clearly the sizes. Agreed that 14sq-m likely to include the balcony + planter, etc... That's why i think article distorted the facts..
or there is a term called "air-con space" = ac ledge + balcony + planter + RC ledge?:D
i have doubts about the writer's claims. 14sqm = 4m x 3.5m. unless the developer plans to have 2 refrigerators cool the unit, the space is simply too much for a condensor - split or single.
I thought BCA specify aircon width must not exceed 1m? I think it is probably 14mx1m if what he claim is true. I do agree developer nowsaday are playing with this loop hole and design exccessive air-con ledge size. Many units has 6m-8m of ledges when 3m is suffice.
I thought BCA specify aircon width must not exceed 1m? I think it is probably 14mx1m if what he claim is true. I do agree developer nowsaday are playing with this loop hole and design exccessive air-con ledge size. Many units has 6m-8m of ledges when 3m is suffice.
the point is the credibility of the '14sqm' claims. 14m can put in more than 10 refrigerators, side by side.
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 10:34
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3283/Images/la_vida_typeB1.jpg
u saw the link i posted? its close to being able to put 10 fridges if u combine the 2 a/c ledges. i m sure there are others who are able to do it.
the point is the credibility of the '14sqm' claims. 14m can put in more than 10 refrigerators, side by side.
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3283/Images/la_vida_typeB1.jpg
u saw the link i posted? its close to being able to put 10 fridges if u combine the 2 a/c ledges. i m sure there are others who are able to do it.
can't, your link kenna blocked - suspicions of malware
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 10:40
alamak, its from virtualhomes leh (knight frank's website?)
its for a 60 sq m 2 bedder for la vida @ 130.
can't, your link kenna blocked - suspicions of malware
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 10:47
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/ProjectWebsites/Maroon/FloorPlans.aspx?id=3283
is this link any better? its type B1
for argument sake: is the gov responsible for buyers who do not read floor plans ?
(I'm not saying the developer is not deplorable, but hey, floor plan/size is simple data.)
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/ProjectWebsites/Maroon/FloorPlans.aspx?id=3283
is this link any better? its type B1
also kenna block. u better scan your workstation
for argument sake: is the gov responsible for buyers who do not read floor plans ?
(I'm not saying the developer is not deplorable, but hey, floor plan/size is simple data.)
absolutely not. looking back at when optima was first launched, the queue was ridiculous and i believe many were hoping to get a small-sized unit without even looking at the floorplan. this is property euphoria getting out of hand.
reckon some of the complaints are "hey, my unit looks smaller than the showflat" or "wah, how come there is a pillar in my unit when the showflat doesn't have one"
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 11:22
i know of university grads who do not know how to read floor plans. after unit completed then complain unit is smaller than they thought. furniture from 1200 sq ft hdb, they were wondering why they couldn't fit into 1400 sq ft condo.
but in sadder cases, there are cases of lesser educated buyers who really do not know how to read floor plans or cannot visualise from floor plan to the real thing. to these hdb upgraders, 1000 sq ft of hdb is 1000 sq ft of hdb and 646 sq ft of condo suppose to also be 646 sq ft of condo.
for argument sake: is the gov responsible for buyers who do not read floor plans ?
(I'm not saying the developer is not deplorable, but hey, floor plan/size is simple data.)
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 11:27
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3283/Images/la_vida_typeB1.jpg
this unit is 60 sq m. it has TWO a/c ledges. add the 2 areas up, may have 14 sq m?
if i assume the door's width of 1m.. the floor plan only give ~6-7 sq-m only..
then how ? million dollar purchase, gov must ensure developer dun cheat ? ;)
are singaporeans really that gullible ?
In HK, the sqft sold is "construction area", including lift lobby and common areas too. why HK ppl have no problem understanding floor plans but SG ppl have ?
It is because many of us really are so protected from young that even a simple trick from developer manages to con them ?
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 11:33
then how ? million dollar purchase, gov must ensure developer dun cheat ? ;)
are singaporeans really that gullible ?
In HK, the sqft sold is "construction area", including lift lobby and common areas too. why HK ppl have no problem understanding floor plans but SG ppl have ?
It is because many of us really are so protected from young that even a simple trick from developer manages to con them ?
Developer got many ways to cheat.. they can build 3% smaller than floorplan and this is legally fine (if they are skillful enough) or they build smaller room and larger ledges. The total floor area still the same as what they sell you...:D
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 11:40
thought that's been the problem all along? singaporeans too protected from young? hahahahahahha.
then how ? million dollar purchase, gov must ensure developer dun cheat ? ;)
are singaporeans really that gullible ?
In HK, the sqft sold is "construction area", including lift lobby and common areas too. why HK ppl have no problem understanding floor plans but SG ppl have ?
It is because many of us really are so protected from young that even a simple trick from developer manages to con them ?
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 11:42
if i assume the door's width of 1m.. the floor plan only give ~6-7 sq-m only..
so 7 sq m for the big ledge and 3 sq m from the small ledge, total 10 sq m?
http://www.virtualhomes.sg/FileUpload/Project/3213/Images/regent_residence_typeA1.jpg
an example of how a/c ledge has been abused.
typical mickey mouse layout
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 11:48
so 7 sq m for the big ledge and 3 sq m from the small ledge, total 10 sq m?
nope.. i added both..my rough estimation only..
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 12:16
using the same floorplan, i overlay with my 60sq-m unit (with 15sq-m AC ledge). Any normal buyer will immediately notice the AC ledge is super big without go back home to calculate..
u don't need 2 A/C ledges for such a small unit. the developer has plans to convert it into a cold room or meat freezer?????
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 12:32
its simply developers ripping off buyers lor.
bro amk, even if we understand floor plans also no use. why can't they close this a/c ledge loophole? we dun have a choice when resources (buyer's money) is wasted on a/c ledge right? even if its not 14 sq m but 7 sq m instead, the a/c ledge is still 100k out of 840k in the e.g. above rite? that's 12% of the price.
and we haven't even talked about the TWO balconies yet. :ashamed1:
u don't need 2 A/C ledges for such a small unit. the developer has plans to convert it into a cold room or meat freezer?????
well, it's buyer beware. if you don't like it, just walk away. i believe there will be choices in the vicinity.
no one is forcing the buyer to purchase
The fact is even for buyers who are able to read the plan and they knew the ac ledge is oversized, there is nothing much he can do as most developers are doing the same. People rather think of ways to utilize the ac ledge for other purpose.
BCA can do a better job in ensuring developer do not use the loop holes to build more units into their pocket at the expense of the buyers.
When developers build extra 4 sqm ac ledges for a 500 units project, it has extra GFA of 4sqm x 500=2000sqm. That is 20 units of 100sqm units.
The fact is even for buyers who are able to read the plan and they knew the ac ledge is oversized, there is nothing much he can do as most developers are doing the same. People rather think of ways to utilize the ac ledge for other purpose.
BCA can do a better job in ensuring developer do not use the loop holes to build more units into their pocket at the expense of the buyers.
When developers build extra 4 sqm ac ledges for a 500 units project, it has extra GFA of 4sqm x 500=2000sqm. That is 20 units of 100sqm units.
why else can u do with A/C ledges apart from putting some orchids there? vote with your money and walk away.
Developer should convert all these floor plans to 3-D computer model and one can walk through it. The technology has been around for a long time and should be relative cheap to do now. The question is by releasing more information, developer may not be able to sell the less favourable ones.
i know of university grads who do not know how to read floor plans. after unit completed then complain unit is smaller than they thought. furniture from 1200 sq ft hdb, they were wondering why they couldn't fit into 1400 sq ft condo.
but in sadder cases, there are cases of lesser educated buyers who really do not know how to read floor plans or cannot visualise from floor plan to the real thing. to these hdb upgraders, 1000 sq ft of hdb is 1000 sq ft of hdb and 646 sq ft of condo suppose to also be 646 sq ft of condo.
Must always buy with eyes and ears open to see and listen to reliable information and not from agents or people with conflicting interest. Pressure selling has enticed many property buyers. ;)
absolutely not. looking back at when optima was first launched, the queue was ridiculous and i believe many were hoping to get a small-sized unit without even looking at the floorplan. this is property euphoria getting out of hand.
reckon some of the complaints are "hey, my unit looks smaller than the showflat" or "wah, how come there is a pillar in my unit when the showflat doesn't have one"
Must always buy with eyes and ears open to see and listen to reliable information and not from agents or people with conflicting interest. Pressure selling has enticed many property buyers. ;)
that is what we should and would do, but many unknowing lambs have been caught in the feeding frenzy......
plus, there is nothing more 3D than an actual showflat. standing in one beats trying to figure out a 3D drawing. just have to make sure there is no misrepresentation in the showflat
for argument sake: is the gov responsible for buyers who do not read floor plans ?
(I'm not saying the developer is not deplorable, but hey, floor plan/size is simple data.)
Since there is no rule, do you think all buyers/agents hope every developer continue adding more space to A/C? Maybe till one day all developers claim it is a norm to have nonsense space for A/C.
If that happen, then reading the floor plan will no matter anymore, as people will have no choice.
Maybe you will still argue "not happy, then don't buy", then everybody can assume you are at the developer side.
Please try to see buyers/agent's real concern, if things gone too far may impact future, so some authorities should step in to keep things balance/check.
Since there is no rule, do you think all buyers/agents hope every developer continue adding more space to A/C? Maybe till one day all developers claim it is a norm to have nonsense space for A/C.
If that happen, then reading the floor plan will no matter anymore, as people will have no choice.
Maybe you will still argue "not happy, then don't buy", then everybody can assume you are at the developer side.
If things go too far, some authorities should step in to keep things balance/check.
i'm not an advocate for the developer. i have walked away from showrooms because i think it's not worth paying for an unrealistically huge balcony/planter space that i have little use for (apart from hanging laundry) - e.g. ola and st patrick residences
in the first place, i doubt any developer would allocate 14sqm of space just for A/C solely. unless there is fraud or deliberate misrepresentation by developers, the govt should just leave it to the market to decide whether they want to part with their money
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 13:28
actually, why can't they just plug the a/c ledge loophole?! :simmering:
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 13:30
point is, if it becomes the norm in future, we will have fewer and fewer choices as more and more developers make the large balconies and a/c ledges a norm.
i'm not an advocate for the developer. i have walked away from showrooms because i think it's not worth paying for an unrealistically huge balcony/planter space that i have little use for (apart from hanging laundry) - e.g. ola and st patrick residences
in the first place, i doubt any developer would allocate 14sqm of space just for A/C solely. unless there is fraud or deliberate misrepresentation by developers, the govt should just leave it to the market to decide whether they want to part with their money
actually, why can't they just plug the a/c ledge loophole?! :simmering:
let me relate a personal story (that isn't related to property) from years ago,
almost 20 years ago, some sections of the public were harping for more measures to curb speeding near loyang industrial park and govt never bothered.
then on a fateful day, a budding teenage, who was studying in one of the top schools in the east, was killed by a speeding vehicle. she didn't die immediately, suffered from a crushed pelvic and a ruptured liver. the important point, she was related to someone influential in the society.
less than half a year later, the current system of punishing speeding was legislated.
the moral of the story, unless someone dies or there is an element of fraud, i doubt there is any political will to do it. look at sunshine empire and the recent gold scam, those of us who are savvy would be able to smell a rat from miles away. did MAS clamp down even before the culprits were able to swindle millions of dollars? no. don't tell me these brilliant MAS scholars are that naive?
point is, if it becomes the norm in future, we will have fewer and fewer choices as more and more developers make the large balconies and a/c ledges a norm.
coming back, big balconies have been the norm years ago. it's only recently that developers can do away with planters (or is it bay windows?).
so in the end, i got a place in CDS - no balcony and squarish efficient layout.
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 13:46
yes, i remember congratulating u. :D
planters and bay windows rule went hand in hand. after the incentive to build them was removed, developers enlarged the balconies even more and turned to the a/c ledge loophole.
coming back, big balconies have been the norm years ago. it's only recently that developers can do away with planters (or is it bay windows?).
so in the end, i got a place in CDS - no balcony and squarish efficient layout.
coming back, big balconies have been the norm years ago. it's only recently that developers can do away with planters (or is it bay windows?).
so in the end, i got a place in CDS - no balcony and squarish efficient layout.
It is exactly what happened after bay windows becomes part of GFA. They disappear as developer cannot gain from it. I am sure AC ledges will strink to minium when BCA set the same rule.
It is exactly what happened after bay windows becomes part of GFA. They disappear as developer cannot gain from it. I am sure AC ledges will strink to minium when BCA set the same rule.
One question, Who the hell makes a "balcony" for just an aircon?
Why can't they just use steel bracket for aircon like they do for most landed property?
:D
my AC ledge is only 1m sq :D iirc
One question, Who the hell makes a "balcony" for just an aircon?
Why can't they just use steel bracket for aircon like they do for most landed property?
:D
no one does that. that's why i doubt the truth about a 14sqm ac ledge.
When you buy from cheap developer, that charges you cheap prices, you get cheap products.
The authorities to clamp down on these developers. But the BEST clampdown is to tell everyone not be to be cheated and DONT BUY such units! (Or like what Office Boy would do - work out the net psf and make them a lower offer citing the A/C ledges - then threaten to go to the press to expose which misdeeds!)
For those who are aware and yet buy, then they cannot complain.
DKSG
When you buy from cheap developer, that charges you cheap prices, you get cheap products.
The authorities to clamp down on these developers. But the BEST clampdown is to tell everyone not be to be cheated and DONT BUY such units! (Or like what Office Boy would do - work out the net psf and make them a lower offer citing the A/C ledges - then threaten to go to the press to expose which misdeeds!)
For those who are aware and yet buy, then they cannot complain.
DKSG
precisely. it's just like office boy's company buy cheap liquid paper and realize it's translucent after application. what does company do? switch to a better brand of liquid paper........and deduct 10% from office boy's pay for the mistake
HAHAHAHAHA
acidic.straw
09-04-13, 14:18
One question, Who the hell makes a "balcony" for just an aircon?
Why can't they just use steel bracket for aircon like they do for most landed property?
:D
Steel brackets very messy with different sizes and alignment depending on type of aircon used. May be made of steel but can also collect layer of oxide that gives a brown unsightly stain to the walls when water drips from it. Sometimes, can drop even on people's head if not properly fixed.:(
Just make it compulsory but take it out of GFA will solve the problem.
actually, why can't they just plug the a/c ledge loophole?! :simmering:
yes they should, and should also just do it without the need of "passing a law".
but my view on this subject is really this: can you imagine how gullible SG buyers are ? and next time shall the gov also forbid developer doing "list price 1800psf, now 20% discount $1400 only" tactics ?
the Geneva gold thing is an outright scam. This AC ledge thing is just a trick. And it's not even a complicated trick! Gov can't be everywhere "safeguarding" buyers.
i) When you buy from cheap developer, that charges you cheap prices, you get cheap products.
ii) For those who are aware and yet buy, then they cannot complain.
DKSG
i) This is not about cheap prices anymore, but about buyers paying more and more for bigger and bigger useless space. In some cases, this is intentional created, almost hidden at the fine prints.
ii) Agreed. Maybe you can share with all of us here how to benefit from such big and bigger unnecessary A/C to future buyers/agents.
precisely. it's just like office boy's company buy cheap liquid paper and realize it's translucent after application. what does company do? switch to a better brand of liquid paper........and deduct 10% from office boy's pay for the mistake
HAHAHAHAHA
Wei! Why you keep want to deduct my already quite low pay ?
We dont buy cheap liquid paper - but then now still got people use Liquid Paper ?! Hardly anyone in the office use them now.
My company is a high end company. Something like Orchard Residences if not The MarQ.
DKSG
on the flip side, this may potentially spell a greater demand for units that are more space-efficient.
unit A : 100sqm, 1-2sqm A/C
unit B : 100sqm, 4-5sqm A/C
while common sense prevails and all else remaining equal, it is a no-brainer
Wei! Why you keep want to deduct my already quite low pay ?
We dont buy cheap liquid paper - but then now still got people use Liquid Paper ?! Hardly anyone in the office use them now.
My company is a high end company. Something like Orchard Residences if not The MarQ.
DKSG
hahahaha, just joking. chill chill.
i) i'm not an advocate for the developer. i have walked away from showrooms because i think it's not worth paying for an unrealistically huge balcony/planter space that i have little use for (apart from hanging laundry) - e.g. ola and st patrick residences
ii) in the first place, i doubt any developer would allocate 14sqm of space just for A/C solely. unless there is fraud or deliberate misrepresentation by developers, the govt should just leave it to the market to decide whether they want to part with their money
i) Noted.
ii) Hope it doesn't mean it is okay to buy everything at sky-high prices, then all will be working like slave to big corporates. All markets are run by greed, no need to be checked and balance?
i) Noted.
ii) Hope it doesn't mean it is okay to buy everything at sky-high prices, then all will be working like slave to big corporates. All markets are run by greed, no need to be checked and balance?
if we practice free market capitalism, then there is no place to check greed unless there is an illegal element at play.
e.g. maxwell road chicken rice - $3
mandarin hotel chicken rice - $20++
should or rather, can the government dictate whether customers should pay $20++ for chicken rice? if we are communist, yes but fortunately, we aren't
my AC ledge is only 1m sq :D iirc
Exactly, spot on.
In future, why can't developer work out something which is a win-win with buyers? Minimise the useless space by design, so that developer sell bigger unit to all happy buyers.
if we practice free market capitalism, then there is no place to check greed unless there is an illegal element at play.
e.g. maxwell road chicken rice - $3
mandarin hotel chicken rice - $20++
should or rather, can the government dictate whether customers should pay $20++ for chicken rice? if we are communist, yes but fortunately, we aren't
Please be reminded that you are living in uniquely Singapore. Did you have a say before CM1-7 implemented?
the Geneva gold thing is an outright scam. This AC ledge thing is just a trick. And it's not even a complicated trick! Gov can't be everywhere "safeguarding" buyers.
Agreed.
But, sad to inform developers that they are just giving more and more supporting reasons (intentional/un-intentional) for Gov to whack them harder later. Bear in mind, thing can be easily escalated from some minor collective problems, especially all eyes from the top are watching these property trade now.
Please be reminded that you are living in uniquely Singapore. Did you have a say before CM1-7 implemented?
please be reminded that the CMs were not to control price, but rather to deflate the risk of a property bubble. unless u mean to say that growing AC ledge size correlates directly to rising property prices, then u may have a case.
CMs do not dictate whether buyers should buy a unit with 10sqm AC ledge or 1sqm AC ledge. if there is proof that developers conned buyers or misrepresented themselves in the sales process, it is still a case of buyer beware.
[QUOTE=eng81157] ....unless u mean to say that growing AC ledge size correlates directly to rising property prices, then u may have a case...
QUOTE]
Hope you realized that you have already seen my point "they can do it, if they want". Mentioning those “Communist...free market trade.... etc ” just out of topic.
[quote=eng81157] ....unless u mean to say that growing AC ledge size correlates directly to rising property prices, then u may have a case...
QUOTE]
Hope you realized that you have already seen my point "they can do it, if they want". Mentioning those “Communist...free market trade.... etc ” just out of topic.
i've reiterated that they can do what they want. i've quoted examples of sunshine empire and the gold scams whereby government allowed them to occur.
till now, you have not shown due cause why the govt should clamp down on big balconies,A/C ledge. my stand is buyers can always walk away. the flip side is as you suggested, buyers can't and they are getting conned, which isn't happening
my AC ledge is only 1m sq :D iirc
erm... reasonable? :D
[quote=wsx123]
i've reiterated that they can do what they want. i've quoted examples of sunshine empire and the gold scams whereby government allowed them to occur.
till now, you have not shown due cause why the govt should clamp down on big balconies,A/C ledge. my stand is buyers can always walk away. the flip side is as you suggested, buyers can't and they are getting conned, which isn't happening
yup, the buyers do hv a choice.
Usually I see home shelter, bay window, big aircon ledge, weird shape, I will not even turn up at the showroom.
but I do noe there r ppl who din even look at the floor plan more than once. they r juz interested in the $ n location. In short, they cant even be bothered with the nonsense the developer put in.
if my balcony is 6sqm, issit considered as very big? roughly equiv to how many square tiles?
if my balcony is 6sqm, issit considered as very big? roughly equiv to how many square tiles?
depends how big is your unit in relation to it.
desirenlure
09-04-13, 17:47
In my opinion, this loop hole is caused by the lack of the requirement (rightly or wrongly) from the authority which will a yield fair value to the buyer of a premise for areas currently outside of GFA such as the AC ledge, planter box and balcony. As it is difficult to determine a limit either in absolute or a percentage of the floor area, the regulation should include all the current "free" space as part of GFA as in the past (which is why the older premises are bigger). When that happens, the developer will be happy getting what they pay for, the buyers will not remorse, clearer marketing communication material and no dispute.
[quote=wsx123]
till now, you have not shown due cause why the govt should clamp down on big balconies,A/C ledge.
Call it a "clamp down" too harsh. Maybe in a form of guidelines that help developers design better (for instance no wastage of A/C space with define maximun allowable space), maybe in tender specifications which they had to comply, surely developer will be a "good boy" to the authority at that stage, therefore without you and me worry about should gov interfere or not.
In my opinion, this loop hole is caused by the lack of the requirement (rightly or wrongly) from the authority which will a yield fair value to the buyer of a premise for areas currently outside of GFA such as the AC ledge, planter box and balcony. As it is difficult to determine a limit either in absolute or a percentage of the floor area, the regulation should include all the current "free" space as part of GFA as in the past (which is why the older premises are bigger). When that happens, the developer will be happy getting what they pay for, the buyers will not remorse, clearer marketing communication material and no dispute.
Agreed, spot on.
If design requirement from authority is too loose, developer abuses it for profit. Did our authority done enough homework to know the maximum size that should be enough? Take note that our houses are shrinking, so A/C space cannot be increasing without limit.
[QUOTE=eng81157]
yup, the buyers do hv a choice.
Usually I see home shelter, bay window, big aircon ledge, weird shape, I will not even turn up at the showroom.
but I do noe there r ppl who din even look at the floor plan more than once. they r juz interested in the $ n location. In short, they cant even be bothered with the nonsense the developer put in.
Agreed.
Some always say "not happy don't buy", fair enough. But agents still got to sell those "extra-ordinary huge A/C space unit", how are them going to make a living, it is difficult to sell those as many buyers are wise like you.
[QUOTE=eng81157]
yup, the buyers do hv a choice.
Usually I see home shelter, bay window, big aircon ledge, weird shape, I will not even turn up at the showroom.
but I do noe there r ppl who din even look at the floor plan more than once. they r juz interested in the $ n location. In short, they cant even be bothered with the nonsense the developer put in.
But when it has becomes a norm, you do not have a choice. What recent launches has small aircon ledges?
It is like many buyers prefer to have living space rather than balcony, I have yet to see a BUC condo without balcony.
This is where authority's policy plays a part in ensuring fairness for developer and buyers and promote space efficient design.
Or you can buy these projects with big air con ledges during a bear market and factor in the unusable areas in your bid price.
Wah so bad? They should just legislate that everything is included in GFA, including balconies (and not giving free 10% space for them to sell)! After that, you will find that balconies and air-con ledges will become useful in size etc. This is no different from them clamping down on bay windows and planter areas and you don't see such nonsense anymore!
But they choose not to do anything, what can we say? :beats-me-man:
THE Government has introduced several rounds of measures to rein in the continued rise in property prices. There is some effect, yet property prices are holding their own.
Recently, I visited a couple of property launches. The showflats attracted quite a crowd and the boards indicated that many units were sold - clear evidence that there was no shortage of buyers.
I was told that, at the offer price of about $1,300 psf before any stamp duty, the apartments should be a worthwhile investment for my own stay or rental income.
When looking at the price list, I noticed that there was a sizeable area set aside for holding the air-conditioning equipment. A unit with a total saleable area of 61 sq m had 14 sq m provided for air-con space.
A quick back of the envelope calculation suggested that the buyer will be paying about $200,000 for the space to house the air-con. Considering that a multi-split air-con system costs about $3,000, I find this situation incomprehensible.
To be sure that I was not mistaken, I sought confirmation from the agent, who assured me that the 14 sq m of "air-con" area is indeed chargeable, and that the cost is to be borne by the buyer.
This must make Singapore one of the most expensive places in the world to install an air-con system.
To have living space costing in excess of $1,000 psf for suburban localities already makes Singapore property prices one of the highest in the world.
To have air-con space costing $200,000 should be a wake-up call for Singapore to seriously re-examine its land valuation model.
Philip Toh Kee Poon
Be optimistic, the next CM may address this shortcoming on ac ledge. So far this forum has talked about jumbo penthouse in ECs and that got addressed. So only a matter of time. Wait till the buyers get a shock on the amount of "skirting" they have paid for.
bargain hunter
09-04-13, 22:11
no leh. the few of us already kpkb about big balconies and a/c ledge for 1 to 2 years already.
Be optimistic, the next CM may address this shortcoming on ac ledge. So far this forum has talked about jumbo penthouse in ECs and that got addressed. So only a matter of time. Wait till the buyers get a shock on the amount of "skirting" they have paid for.
NorthernStar
09-04-13, 22:26
BCA or URA giving the free GFA is for developer to has some freedom or promote the creative design on the building.. but nowadays, ppl too calculative on the psf and of course developer also trying to maximize profits.. I applause for caplands as they are so far the only developer trying to create unique residences for Singapore...
imagine if you remove all the free GFA, what will happen??? what u get will be very similar to HDB!
thomastansb
09-04-13, 22:53
This one clear cut some people are sleeping on their job.
Agreed, spot on.
If design requirement from authority is too loose, developer abuses it for profit. Did our authority done enough homework to know the maximum size that should be enough? Take note that our houses are shrinking, so A/C space cannot be increasing without limit.
no leh. the few of us already kpkb about big balconies and a/c ledge for 1 to 2 years already.
because still got willing buyer, just like bay window like that. big balconies still can be use, but big ac ledge nobody can use. a matter of time i reckon...
BCA or URA giving the free GFA is for developer to has some freedom or promote the creative design on the building.. but nowadays, ppl too calculative on the psf and of course developer also trying to maximize profits.. I applause for caplands as they are so far the only developer trying to create unique residences for Singapore...
imagine if you remove all the free GFA, what will happen??? what u get will be very similar to HDB!
Errr... Air con ledge is not GFA, it's part of your strata area, but exempt from GFA.
What the government should legislate is that the developers must declare the GFA (built-in area) with the strata area, so buyers know exactly what they are getting. You can then choose to base your per sq ft price on built in or strata area. the developers who abuse the system will show. Go in with your eyes open.
That is because buyers got no choice! You look at all the developers, tell me which one is not exploiting all these free or cheap spaces and selling them at fully-renovated premium $PSF price? :doh:
because still got willing buyer, just like bay window like that. big balconies still can be use, but big ac ledge nobody can use. a matter of time i reckon...
Govt should legislate that buyer only pay for SQFT space covered by GFA. Whatever not covered by GFA (eg balconies, air-con ledges) should be free and not payable. So, problem solved right? :p
Errr... Air con ledge is not GFA, it's part of your strata area, but exempt from GFA.
What the government should legislate is that the developers must declare the GFA (built-in area) with the strata area, so buyers know exactly what they are getting. You can then choose to base your per sq ft price on built in or strata area. the developers who abuse the system will show. Go in with your eyes open.
Govt should legislate that buyer only pay for SQFT space covered by GFA. Whatever not covered by GFA (eg balconies, air-con ledges) should be free and not payable. So, problem solved right? :p
How to legislate this, you buy based on lump sum, not per sq ft... But with both GFA and strata area, you can work out per sq ft for both... And you decide if its worth it.
no leh. the few of us already kpkb about big balconies and a/c ledge for 1 to 2 years already.
When/if the authority is sleeping, developer will be taking advantage for sure, but none of us (buyers and agents) here will benefit.
Just kpkb here or within your agent’s circle are not going to help us. Have to salute Mr. Philip Toh Kee Poon who got the balls and guts writing it to the press.
When/if the authority is sleeping, developer will be taking advantage for sure, but none of us (buyers and agents) here will benefit.
Just kpkb here or within your agent’s circle are not going to help us. Have to salute Mr. Philip Toh Kee Poon who got the balls and guts writing it to the press.
Suggest we kpkb on khaw's blog as well. :scared-1:
Govt should legislate that buyer only pay for SQFT space covered by GFA. Whatever not covered by GFA (eg balconies, air-con ledges) should be free and not payable. So, problem solved right? :p
no lah, the most is the developer will sell the usable area with a higher psf that's all. and this could spur another spurt upwards in home prices.
basically, if they gave you a breakdown on the ac ledge space and the liveable space, I think you can immediate calculate the effective price on the live in space.
so i for one would like to see them declaring the breakdown between useless space and useful space.
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 07:31
Errr... Air con ledge is not GFA, it's part of your strata area, but exempt from GFA.
What the government should legislate is that the developers must declare the GFA (built-in area) with the strata area, so buyers know exactly what they are getting. You can then choose to base your per sq ft price on built in or strata area. the developers who abuse the system will show. Go in with your eyes open.
i agreed on that developer should declare all the area and gov should give some guidelines on it.. My post was mainly referring to the balcony area which some forumers suggested to remove it.. AC ledges of 3sqm is enough for standard 4bedder..
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 07:34
When/if the authority is sleeping, developer will be taking advantage for sure, but none of us (buyers and agents) here will benefit.
Just kpkb here or within your agent’s circle are not going to help us. Have to salute Mr. Philip Toh Kee Poon who got the balls and guts writing it to the press.
The problem of his article is: Which development in Singapore that we can find a 14sq-m AC ledge??
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 07:35
no lah, the most is the developer will sell the usable area with a higher psf that's all. and this could spur another spurt upwards in home prices.
basically, if they gave you a breakdown on the ac ledge space and the liveable space, I think you can immediate calculate the effective price on the live in space.
so i for one would like to see them declaring the breakdown between useless space and useful space.
Hard to define which is useful space leh.... some condo provide access door to AC ledge leh...it become use-able space then...
I saw ppl put bicycle & other stuff onto their big aircon ledge to fully utilize the GFA
[quote=mermaid]
Agreed.
Some always say "not happy don't buy", fair enough. But agents still got to sell those "extra-ordinary huge A/C space unit", how are them going to make a living, it is difficult to sell those as many buyers are wise like you.
let us clarify whether there is truly a '14sqm' AC ledge first. i don't think buyers can be hoodwinked that easily, especially if the ledge is as big or even bigger than a balcony
[quote=mermaid]
But when it has becomes a norm, you do not have a choice. What recent launches has small aircon ledges?
It is like many buyers prefer to have living space rather than balcony, I have yet to see a BUC condo without balcony.
This is where authority's policy plays a part in ensuring fairness for developer and buyers and promote space efficient design.
then u should check out CDL's livia, NV and palette. only tiny planter without balcony.
we must recognize that our perception may not be entirely true.
I saw ppl put bicycle & other stuff onto their big aircon ledge to fully utilize the GFA
Is there railing to prevent the bicycles from dropping down if they want to use that space as a store.
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 09:18
Is there railing to prevent the bicycles from dropping down if they want to use that space as a store.
AC ledge should have railing... RC ledge will not..
[quote=bsslang]
then u should check out CDL's livia, NV and palette. only tiny planter without balcony.
we must recognize that our perception may not be entirely true.
Yes, but they have generous bay windows. They are from the days with bay windows or planter box and those area are not part of GFA. So you are paying for them into developer's pocket.
You can observe new launches nowdays has no bay windows or PB. It is in fact an improvement on maximizing space. And this happens only after policy changed to include BW and PB in GFA.
I am not surprise if the 14sqm AC ledge is true. It is common to see 6-8sqm AC ledges for 3 or 4 rooms unit nowadays.
[quote=eng81157]
Yes, but they have generous bay windows. They are from the days with bay windows or planter box and those area are not part of GFA. So you are paying for them into developer's pocket.
You can observe new launches nowdays has no bay windows or PB. It is in fact an improvement on maximizing space. And this happens only after policy changed to include BW and PB in GFA.
I am not surprise if the 14sqm AC ledge is true. It is common to see 6-8sqm AC ledges for 3 or 4 rooms unit nowadays.
eh, then i suggest u go get a 4 room HDB flat. definitely no planter, baywindow and balcony.
do all new launches have no baywindows or planter boxes? please don't make sweeping statements.
if the unit is a 400sqm PH, 14sqm AC ledge may be reasonable. but the writer stated a 60sqm unit has a 14sqm AC ledge. for that, i doubt his credibility. and if he bought the unit, then i question his wisdom.
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 09:53
You can observe new launches nowdays has no bay windows or PB. It is in fact an improvement on maximizing space. And this happens only after policy changed to include BW and PB in GFA.
That's one of the reason why psf keep going up... quantum same, size reduced..
[quote=wsx123]
let us clarify whether there is truly a '14sqm' AC ledge first. i don't think buyers can be hoodwinked that easily, especially if the ledge is as big or even bigger than a balcony
No point diverting the topic to argue/discuss on figures (9sqm, 10sqm and etc) now, all seem not interested.
The people here already knew the "extra-ordinary space" is a growing problem, only waiting to explode one day. Nevertheless, we still thank the developer for speeding it up by creating big and bigger A/C space, informing us they have done a good job making profit and pushing agents hard to sell for them as well.
"Delay No More" to voice it up properly, and we shall wait and see how this "time bomb" is passed to who to cover/fix up properly.
[quote=bsslang]
eh, then i suggest u go get a 4 room HDB flat. definitely no planter, baywindow and balcony.
do all new launches have no baywindows or planter boxes? please don't make sweeping statements.
if the unit is a 400sqm PH, 14sqm AC ledge may be reasonable. but the writer stated a 60sqm unit has a 14sqm AC ledge. for that, i doubt his credibility. and if he bought the unit, then i question his wisdom.
You are right, HDB has the best design of all in term of livable space.
[quote=bsslang]
if the unit is a 400sqm PH, 14sqm AC ledge may be reasonable.
Can only assume above statement said "14sqm A/C space is reasonable to sell to buyer, since the buyer can afford the unit at 400sqm", btw hope you know that many M&E contractors knew well enough how to design using less space if asked to. Are developers keen to know?
thought that's been the problem all along? singaporeans too protected from young? hahahahahahha.
From the word go, when u visit the show flat , to asking all the relavent question, the property u eying on is gone.
So, instead of been labelled as a typical difficult customer, it boils down to the developer been of high integrity, rather then a jungle mentality or trying to deal with a developer whose goal is to sell not based on equal footing, but based on hidden clause or extras that help boost the profit line.
I think its fair that there is a big brother behind a big ticket item to help maintain the interest of the people buying.
I hate to think that if we have to look at property like coding java programing, then it take donkey hours just to sign on the dotted line.
no lah, the most is the developer will sell the usable area with a higher psf that's all. and this could spur another spurt upwards in home prices.
basically, if they gave you a breakdown on the ac ledge space and the liveable space, I think you can immediate calculate the effective price on the live in space.
so i for one would like to see them declaring the breakdown between useless space and useful space.
This practice of listing out the various area sizes are already mandated since May 2012.
[quote=eng81157]
Can only assume above statement said "14sqm A/C space is reasonable to sell to buyer, since the buyer can afford the unit at 400sqm", btw hope you know that many M&E contractors knew well enough how to design using less space if asked to. Are developers keen to know?
i am not contesting that developers or contractors know how to design inefficient units.
if after looking at the floorplan, making all relevant enquiries, and if a buyer deems a unit inefficient in space, there is nothing to stop him from walking away and not sign the dotted line. but if he decides to purchase it against common sense, then no amount of guidelines can protect him.
Wah so bad? They should just legislate that everything is included in GFA, including balconies (and not giving free 10% space for them to sell)!
Balcony is not FREE GFA. Have to pay Development Charge for it. It is simply BONUS GFA on top of masterplan Plot Ratio cap.
From the word go, when u visit the show flat , to asking all the relavent question, the property u eying on is gone.
So, instead of been labelled as a typical difficult customer, it boils down to the developer been of high integrity, rather then a jungle mentality or trying to deal with a developer whose goal is to sell not based on equal footing, but based on hidden clause or extras that help boost the profit line.
I think its fair that there is a big brother behind a big ticket item to help maintain the interest of the people buying.
I hate to think that if we have to look at property like coding java programing, then it take donkey hours just to sign on the dotted line.
if it's safety or legal issues, i agree that govt must have clear guidelines. but if it's a matter of such, do we expect the govt to nanny us? it's just like MM units. KenoBiWan can only do so much to advise buyers about the 'un-livability', without banning MM outright.
[quote=wsx123]
i) i am not contesting that developers or contractors know how to design inefficient units.
ii) if after looking at the floorplan, making all relevant enquiries, and if a buyer deems a unit inefficient in space, there is nothing to stop him from walking away and not sign the dotted line. but if he decides to purchase it against common sense, then no amount of guidelines can protect him.
i)Noted.
ii)Similar statements had already been made many times here. Agreed with you that as for now there is no guidelines, but this seem aginst the wish of general views.
if it's safety or legal issues, i agree that govt must have clear guidelines. but if it's a matter of such, do we expect the govt to nanny us? it's just like MM units. KenoBiWan can only do so much to advise buyers about the 'un-livability', without banning MM outright.
he oni can advise developer not to build nia, surely wun ban MM units one. else, how is he gg to sell MM HDB units to singles? :hornybastard:
he oni can advise developer not to build nia, surely wun ban MM units one. else, how is he gg to sell MM HDB units to singles? :hornybastard:
you are right, MM has its place in the market. all MND can do is to eliminate speculative activity, through the multiple CMs.
if it's safety or legal issues, i agree that govt must have clear guidelines. but if it's a matter of such, do we expect the govt to nanny us? it's just like MM units. KenoBiWan can only do so much to advise buyers about the 'un-livability', without banning MM outright.
Appreciate to hear your personal view which strongly advise us "be good boy" once more, and we deserve no help from anybody, or even hinted to us that money game has no basic rule.
you are right, MM has its place in the market. all MND can do is to eliminate speculative activity, through the multiple CMs.
r THEY sure all the measures that they hv done (via CMs) can curb the MM speculative activity?
It is precisely housing is getting more exp liao tats y MM units appears to be very affordable due to the low quantum.
r THEY sure all the measures that they hv done (via CMs) can curb the MM speculative activity?
It is precisely housing is getting more exp liao tats y MM units appears to be very affordable due to the low quantum.
yes, especially with the ABSD and SSD. even for low quantum units, say $600k, it's still a hefty sum.
yes, especially with the ABSD and SSD. even for low quantum units, say $600k, it's still a hefty sum.
Now that many have bought big A/C ledge, can someone share his ways to make use of it?
Is it allowed to hack the wall/glass and install a door or simply a metal gate to access it? (HDB does not allow that) If so, it can be easily converted to a dry service yard for clothes-hanging.
There are no service yard for many new PC lah.
Now that many have bought big A/C ledge, can someone share his ways to make use of it?
Is it allowed to hack the wall/glass and install a door or simply a metal gate to access it? (HDB does not allow that) If so, it can be easily converted to a dry service yard for clothes-hanging.
There are no service yard for many new PC lah.
i doubt u can hack or install fixed structures on them.
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 17:38
Now that many have bought big A/C ledge, can someone share his ways to make use of it?
Is it allowed to hack the wall/glass and install a door or simply a metal gate to access it? (HDB does not allow that) If so, it can be easily converted to a dry service yard for clothes-hanging.
There are no service yard for many new PC lah.
i had seen some condo with door access to ac ledge.. so, whenever you see those big big ac ledge floorplan.. ask the developer and i guess something may surprise you... :D
i had seen some condo with door access to ac ledge.. so, whenever you see those big big ac ledge floorplan.. ask the developer and i guess something may surprise you... :D
Will developer entertain such request from buyers? I think it will be a nightmare during construction to built base on each buyer's preference.
THE Government has introduced several rounds of measures to rein in the continued rise in property prices. There is some effect, yet property prices are holding their own.
Recently, I visited a couple of property launches. The showflats attracted quite a crowd and the boards indicated that many units were sold - clear evidence that there was no shortage of buyers.
I was told that, at the offer price of about $1,300 psf before any stamp duty, the apartments should be a worthwhile investment for my own stay or rental income.
When looking at the price list, I noticed that there was a sizeable area set aside for holding the air-conditioning equipment. A unit with a total saleable area of 61 sq m had 14 sq m provided for air-con space.
A quick back of the envelope calculation suggested that the buyer will be paying about $200,000 for the space to house the air-con. Considering that a multi-split air-con system costs about $3,000, I find this situation incomprehensible.
To be sure that I was not mistaken, I sought confirmation from the agent, who assured me that the 14 sq m of "air-con" area is indeed chargeable, and that the cost is to be borne by the buyer.
This must make Singapore one of the most expensive places in the world to install an air-con system.
To have living space costing in excess of $1,000 psf for suburban localities already makes Singapore property prices one of the highest in the world.
To have air-con space costing $200,000 should be a wake-up call for Singapore to seriously re-examine its land valuation model.
Philip Toh Kee Poon
How is this compared to Hong Kong developers who charge the common lift area to the units too.
i had seen some condo with door access to ac ledge.. so, whenever you see those big big ac ledge floorplan.. ask the developer and i guess something may surprise you... :D
You mean like Trilight ?
Usually developers cannot deviate from approved plans and build u a door or what.
But if you build yourself, unlikely will have problem.
The question is .. why bother to buy in the first place ?
There are so many choices around..
DKSG
You mean like Trilight ?
Usually developers cannot deviate from approved plans and build u a door or what.
But if you build yourself, unlikely will have problem.
The question is .. why bother to buy in the first place ?
There are so many choices around..
DKSG
Second that, if there's no demand for units with overly generous aircon ledges, it will progressively reduce in the plans.
NorthernStar
10-04-13, 18:53
You mean like Trilight ?
Usually developers cannot deviate from approved plans and build u a door or what.
But if you build yourself, unlikely will have problem.
The question is .. why bother to buy in the first place ?
There are so many choices around..
DKSG
yup.. similar to Trilight.. then the ac ledge become a narrow balcony..:D
Trilight's floorplan is very obvious that there is a door..However some floorplan showing glass wall/window so, i suggested to ask the developer whether is there a access door?.. if not, ask developer go fly kite. if yes, at least still a use-able space.
Legal or not? i am not sure... anyway, i will avoid this type of units..
Second that, if there's no demand for units with overly generous aircon ledges, it will progressively reduce in the plans.
It is your assumption to say, "It will progressively (in future I guess you are referring to) reduce in the plan ". If that so, might as well assume the developers will turn nice/awaken one day and suddenly tell buyers "I realized my mistake now, time to give it back to buyers".
In reality the trend surfaced years back, but till now it is not going healthy progressively for few years already.
It is your assumption to say, "It will progressively (in future I guess you are referring to) reduce in the plan ". If that so, might as well assume the developers will turn nice/awaken one day and suddenly tell buyers "I realized my mistake now, time to give it back to buyers".
In reality the trend surfaced years back, but till now it is not going healthy progressively for few years already.
too many innocent buyers out there. so developers can continue to build those oversized ac ledges.
too many innocent buyers out there. so developers can continue to build those oversized ac ledges.
i) Would not say they were innocent, but many had lost their mind when buying. Developers would think it was fair based on common saying "Not happy, don't buy". Now, I believe there are many begin to desperately verify their exact ac ledges measurement using whatever available ruler in their house, the "Kia-Su" feeling returning to their mind.
ii) The demand and supplier between Buyer/Seller will/should stabilise, as each will/should do their adjustment progressively to find a balance. If one side decided to kick start a “naughty” trend selling useless thing as “norm”, then some butts will/should be kick eventually.
Buy already then verify too late liao. Nowadays the first thing I look for in the floor plan is ac ledge. Haha.
i) Would not say they were innocent, but many had lost their mind when buying. Developers would think it was fair based on common saying "Not happy, don't buy". Now, I believe there are many begin to desperately verify their exact ac ledges measurement using whatever available ruler in their house, the "Kia-Su" feeling returning to their mind.
ii) The demand and supplier between Buyer/Seller will/should stabilise, as each will/should do their adjustment progressively to find a balance. If one side decided to kick start a “naughty” trend selling useless thing as “norm”, then some butts will/should be kick eventually.
there is no bigger butt-kicker than poor sales. so should the govt, as you claimed, be responsible for those who 'lose their mind'? should i hold the authorities responsible if i suffer from buyer's remorse after getting a ferrari that i can't afford?
Buy already then verify too late liao. Nowadays the first thing I look for in the floor plan is ac ledge. Haha.
Agreed.
Then, we should congratulate those smart developers for successfully selling "useless" stuffs to many owners. Should we hope more buyers fall in giving them a better success?
Buy already then verify too late liao. Nowadays the first thing I look for in the floor plan is ac ledge. Haha.
I would imagine the mass population grew up in HDB or bought a HDB. This was very straight forward. Then when it came to pte condo, its a totally different set of constrains and therefore for the lack of a better word, a noob when confronted with the size and what you are in fact getting.
I am sure that all of us are matured enough to think thru a purchase, but some of the buyer only think thru on the financial T&Cs. The rest is pretty much unaware of.
things like adding a door to the aircon ledge is new to me as well. seems like a case of dealing in a ali baba trading post :scared-2:
For example: If they give you 20% of ac ledge space but sells the whole unit at 60% of the price to peers, then it could still be an attractive proposition where you are getting a 20% discount. So what would be useful and fair is declare the exact ac ledge size and leave nothing to guesswork.
Agreed.
Then, we should congratulate those smart developers for successfully selling "useless" stuffs to many owners. Should we hope more buyers fall in giving them a better success?
u should congratulate agents for successfully using their persuasive skills to seal a deal
I would imagine the mass population grew up in HDB or bought a HDB. This was very straight forward. Then when it came to pte condo, its a totally different set of constrains and therefore for the lack of a better word, a noob when confronted with the size and what you are in fact getting.
I am sure that all of us are matured enough to think thru a purchase, but some of the buyer only think thru on the financial T&Cs. The rest is pretty much unaware of.
things like adding a door to the aircon ledge is new to me as well. seems like a case of dealing in a ali baba trading post :scared-2:
That's why the noobs need to be a bit more street smart. Spend so much money better do homework properly. Cannot pepetually rely on other people to protect their interest.
i) there is no bigger butt-kicker than poor sales.
ii)so should the govt, as you claimed, be responsible for those who 'lose their mind'? should i hold the authorities responsible if i suffer from buyer's remorse after getting a ferrari that i can't afford?
i) Your poor sales got nothing to do everybody here.
ii) Mentioned before many times "Not happy, don't buy" is alright, very fair one.
Selling expensive "useless thing" is only safe for you, if you successfully doing it secretly, don't get caught, manage to cover up if necessary, and yet there are buyers. Wonderful. You will hope it becomes your long term business right? Haha….The world is waiting to kick your butt.
i) Your poor sales got nothing to do everybody here.
ii) Mentioned before many times "Not happy, don't buy" is alright, very fair one.
Selling expensive "useless thing" is only safe for you, if you successfully doing it secretly, don't get caught, manage to cover up if necessary, and yet there are buyers. Wonderful. You will hope it becomes your long term business right? Haha….The world is waiting to kick your butt.
:banghead: :banghead: you speak as though property buyers are kindergarten kids. poor sales will send a signal to developer that customers do not like the product.
how on earth is it being done secretly and how are developers actually defrauding customers??!! everything is in the floorplan. buyers can consult their bankers, lawyers, family members, friends, etc etc, if in doubt.
if a chicken rice seller has poor sales compared to his neighbour selling the same stuff, he better learn to refine his product to suit his customers' taste.
That's why the noobs need to be a bit more street smart. Spend so much money better do homework properly. Cannot pepetually rely on other people to protect their interest.
u are right. But at least have some form of basic protection so the buyer don't get rip off lah.
Its like goin to sim lim square. u think u got the greatest bargain till u check, how come no battery and no warranty and no free gift like those in the other shop for 50 dollars less. Then u realise, if you get that specs in other shop its at least 200 dollars cheaper ...
u are right. But at least have some form of basic protection so the buyer don't get rip off lah.
Its like goin to sim lim square. u think u got the greatest bargain till u check, how come no battery and no warranty and no free gift like those in the other shop for 50 dollars less. Then u realise, if you get that specs in other shop its at least 200 dollars cheaper ...
buyers have bankers and lawyers on their side, while URA releases sales transaction data. for more details, they can always purchase info for a nominal fee or consult property agents. if they bought a product that is more expensive, they only have themselves to blame for not doing homework.
it's a different thing if the developer claims to sell a 1000sqft unit with the frills and the end product turns out to be 800sqft unit with only bare concrete
TravieJackie
11-04-13, 09:54
I agree a lot of people are not street smart and don't realise the wasted space they're paying for.
Having said that, buying a place for own stay involves emotion le. If I like, a bit of wasted sace, I'll still like. just as long as the bulk of wasted space don't go to A?C ledge but to bay window still ok la. And planter worse than bay window coz I rather have indoor space.
Some new development are so small that beds have to be placed on top of bay windows, I look already also feel uncomfortable. Let alone sleep on it!
:banghead: :banghead: i) you speak as though property buyers are kindergarten kids. poor sales will send a signal to developer that customers do not like the product.
ii) how on earth is it being done secretly and how are developers actually defrauding customers??!! everything is in the floorplan. buyers can consult their bankers, lawyers, family members, friends, etc etc, if in doubt.
iii)if a chicken rice seller has poor sales compared to his neighbour selling the same stuff, he better learn to refine his product to suit his customers' taste.
i) Agreed. There are lots of wise buyers who have done enough work before buying. Just based on market greed supported by current trend, if it has became a "norm", then those wise buyer will have to accept "the world is not perfect" after all.
ii) Defraud? How can this happen in our country? We are all clean and honest people. No worry, "not happy, then don't buy" is perfect rule.
iii) Mentioned before, market will stabilise with progressive correction.
i) Agreed. There are lots of wise buyers who have done enough work before buying. Just based on market greed supported by current trend, if it has became a "norm", then those wise buyer will have to accept "the world is not perfect" after all.
ii) Defraud? How can this happen in our country? We are all clean and honest people. No worry, "not happy, then don't buy" is perfect rule.
iii) Mentioned before, market will stabilise with progressive correction.
even the good "obi 1 know me" also was stump about the huge price gap and started to reel in the developer and made changes after the hoo har about the EC penthouse.
So whats there to even consider the man in the streets??
If the developers operate with good moral compass, I highly doubt anyone one worry about intervention.
Its like saying wear safety belt and having a car with Airbags and Traction control.
And then some Financial analyst will tell u its expensive to buy all this and maintain. how fast will a taxi go ?? don't need all this fancy stuff .. the driver very experience and matured enough to be safe ...and then what happen, when things goes wrong ..:cool:
response is - its because it was deem unnecessary at that point in time and after all its just a small number ...
:scared-4: :confused: :scared-5: :eek:
i) If the developers operate with good moral compass, I highly doubt anyone one worry about intervention.
ii) Its like saying wear safety belt and having a car with Airbags and Traction control.And then some Financial analyst will tell u its expensive to buy all this and maintain. how fast will a taxi go ?? don't need all this fancy stuff .. the driver very experience and matured enough to be safe ...and then what happen, when things goes wrong ..:cool:
iii) response is - its because it was deem unnecessary at that point in time and after all its just a small number ...:scared-4: :confused: :scared-5: :eek:
i) Let's pray to “heavenly being”, for developers to operate with moral compass. If they did not short change us one brick from our wall, we have to thanks them for being afraid of breaking the safety rules.
ii) Bro, be watchfully, you maybe already drifting away without knowing. Need a co-driver? Let me know...Haha
iii) Fine, if it due to at that point of time. Now, it is wake-up time. Every dollar count.
Developer does not even give you brickwall these days for internal wall. They use dry construction like plasterboard to save cost and can reduce floor area as the thickness of a brickwall is more than a dry wall. :doh: Good luck with the thermal and sound insulation.
i) Let's pray to “heavenly being”, for developers to operate with moral compass. If they did not short change us one brick from our wall, we have to thanks them for being afraid of breaking the safety rules.
ii) Bro, be watchfully, you maybe already drifting away without knowing. Need a co-driver? Let me know...Haha
iii) Fine, if it due to at that point of time. Now, it is wake-up time. Every dollar count.
Developer does not even give you brickwall these days for internal wall. They use dry construction like plasterboard to save cost and can reduce floor area as the thickness of a brickwall is more than a dry wall. :doh: Good luck with the thermal and sound insulation.
Thanks for sharing, we realised that some don't even worth a cent....
Moral compass, my foot.
u are right. But at least have some form of basic protection so the buyer don't get rip off lah.
Its like goin to sim lim square. u think u got the greatest bargain till u check, how come no battery and no warranty and no free gift like those in the other shop for 50 dollars less. Then u realise, if you get that specs in other shop its at least 200 dollars cheaper ...
Sell you without battery pack is likely sell without air con units or sell without built in cabinet. The acc ledge really glaringly obvious on the floor plan ah... heh.
What I would agree is useful is the est sqft of the ac ledge. So that I can clearly gauge whether my price is worthwhile or not.
May I know does the thickness of the wall included into the floor area as well?
May I know does the thickness of the wall included into the floor area as well?
It appears clear that this "extra-ordinary A/C space" is just a tip of the iceberg, interesting to know all those latest “smart” things which our developers have done, as many here may not know. Maybe blow some whistles to our so called "big bro", give them some ideas on how much/where/when to educate them harder/better, as a continuation of their good job done to our dear used-car dealer.
It appears clear that this "extra-ordinary A/C space" is just a tip of the iceberg, interesting to know all those latest “smart” things which our developers have done, as many here may not know. Maybe blow some whistles to our so called "big bro", give them some ideas on how much/where/when to educate them harder/better, as a continuation of their good job done to our dear used-car dealer.
yes, thickness of the wall is counted in your strata title. usually 1/2 if shared with neighbour.
in cases where rubbish chute is shared by 2 units, the developers will double count the area. if actual rubbish chute is 0.5sqm, then unit A rubbish chute will be 0.5sqm and unit B also will be 0.5sqm, not 0.25sqm each.
basically, i read an article where anything shown in the plan/brochure will be in the strata title.
strata title and GFA are 2 different animals.
yes, thickness of the wall is counted in your strata title. usually 1/2 if shared with neighbour.
in cases where rubbish chute is shared by 2 units, the developers will double count the area. if actual rubbish chute is 0.5sqm, then unit A rubbish chute will be 0.5sqm and unit B also will be 0.5sqm, not 0.25sqm each.
basically, i read an article where anything shown in the plan/brochure will be in the strata title.
strata title and GFA are 2 different animals.
Interesting…Everyday there is something new to learn.
What I would agree is useful is the est sqft of the ac ledge. So that I can clearly gauge whether my price is worthwhile or not.
Actually, its more of a pichar lobang kind of checklist. Like open spaces that is been charge.
Side track a bit. I did not know that buying commercial space , when it is declared at 1000 sqft, it may be potential build up space and not actual space. So again, a average price that is been term reasonable, may become totally ridiculous.
I still in the doubt on reinforce wall at the side of a condo. is this chargable?
Interesting…Everyday there is something new to learn.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dchbgfa/Part1-7gfa.pdf
read section 7.12 regarding ledges, ac ledge, rc ledge.
ac ledge not exceeding 1m is not part of GFA, is not even free GFA given to the developer, yet it can be part of strata title.
read section 7.27 regarding refuse chute
my intepretation it is not GFA since it usually ends at bin chamber.
yet developer charge buyer for the rubbish chute (hollow space) for each unit.
so there are paid gfa, free gfa, non-gfa components that developer cahrge to you in your strata title.
yes, thickness of the wall is counted in your strata title. usually 1/2 if shared with neighbour.
in cases where rubbish chute is shared by 2 units, the developers will double count the area. if actual rubbish chute is 0.5sqm, then unit A rubbish chute will be 0.5sqm and unit B also will be 0.5sqm, not 0.25sqm each.
basically, i read an article where anything shown in the plan/brochure will be in the strata title.
strata title and GFA are 2 different animals.
my left and right not connected to next door. so... am i paying for the thickness of the wall? i was told by THE AGENT that the sqm is the USABLE AREA. SO I ASSUME WALL THICKNESS IS NOT LIVABLE. LOL :banghead:
my left and right not connected to next door. so... am i paying for the thickness of the wall? i was told by THE AGENT that the sqm is the USABLE AREA. SO I ASSUME WALL THICKNESS IS NOT LIVABLE. LOL :banghead:
you dont ask the agent, internal walls are not liveable, so do you pay for the internal walls? :).
what is shown in floorplan is included in your strata title.
my favourite is the 3% rule.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353175&postcount=67
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353193&postcount=69
you only received surveyors' fee, not actual report itself.
try asking for surveyors' report you will get silent treatment.
you dont ask the agent, internal walls are not liveable, so do you pay for the internal walls? :).
what is shown in floorplan is included in your strata title.
my favourite is the 3% rule.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353175&postcount=67
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353193&postcount=69
you only received surveyors' fee, not actual report itself.
try asking for surveyors' report you will get silent treatment.
so layman term.... 3% difference is actually for the wall and misc?
you dont ask the agent, internal walls are not liveable, so do you pay for the internal walls? :).
what is shown in floorplan is included in your strata title.
my favourite is the 3% rule.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353175&postcount=67
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353193&postcount=69
you only received surveyors' fee, not actual report itself.
try asking for surveyors' report you will get silent treatment.
Seems like some ideas are pouring.
"GFA in SingaporeGFA in Singapore, defined by Urban Redevelopment Authority as of January 2010 is:[5]
3 Definition of Gross Floor Area 3.1 All covered floor areas of a building, except otherwise exempted, and uncovered areas for commercial uses are deemed the gross floor area of the building for purposes of plot ratio control and development charge. The gross floor area is the total area of the covered floor space measured between the centre line of party walls, including the thickness of external walls but excluding voids. Accessibility and usability are not criteria for exclusion from GFA. 3.2 URA reserves the right to decide on GFA matters based on the specific design of a development proposal on a case-by-case basis."
URA has the final say.. haha our "big bro" got hinged in this matter.
Seems like some ideas are pouring.
"GFA in SingaporeGFA in Singapore, defined by Urban Redevelopment Authority as of January 2010 is:[5]
3 Definition of Gross Floor Area 3.1 All covered floor areas of a building, except otherwise exempted, and uncovered areas for commercial uses are deemed the gross floor area of the building for purposes of plot ratio control and development charge. The gross floor area is the total area of the covered floor space measured between the centre line of party walls, including the thickness of external walls but excluding voids. Accessibility and usability are not criteria for exclusion from GFA. 3.2 URA reserves the right to decide on GFA matters based on the specific design of a development proposal on a case-by-case basis."
URA has the final say.. haha our "big bro" got hinged in this matter.
URA had always the final say, nothing new lah
Seems like some ideas are pouring.
"GFA in SingaporeGFA in Singapore, defined by Urban Redevelopment Authority as of January 2010 is:[5]
3 Definition of Gross Floor Area 3.1 All covered floor areas of a building, except otherwise exempted, and uncovered areas for commercial uses are deemed the gross floor area of the building for purposes of plot ratio control and development charge. The gross floor area is the total area of the covered floor space measured between the centre line of party walls, including the thickness of external walls but excluding voids. Accessibility and usability are not criteria for exclusion from GFA. 3.2 URA reserves the right to decide on GFA matters based on the specific design of a development proposal on a case-by-case basis."
URA has the final say.. haha our "big bro" got hinged in this matter.
we are not buying GFA sqft, we are buying strata sqft.
the 3% error is not based of GFA, it is based on strata area.
the developer sell you 1000sqft, on the title deed, it will say strata title is 1000sqft, not GFA 1000sqft.
IMO:
any discrepancy in GFA is between developer and govt.
any discrepancy in strata title is between developer and us. that 3% error.
dont tell me all of you here are 1st time buyers? never see that they only ask for surveyor fee and never give your unit's surveyor report?
URA had always the final say, nothing new lah
Seem like you were also all along aware of our "big bro" role.
NorthernStar
12-04-13, 11:52
Seems like some ideas are pouring.
"GFA in SingaporeGFA in Singapore, defined by Urban Redevelopment Authority as of January 2010 is:[5]
3 Definition of Gross Floor Area 3.1 All covered floor areas of a building, except otherwise exempted, and uncovered areas for commercial uses are deemed the gross floor area of the building for purposes of plot ratio control and development charge. The gross floor area is the total area of the covered floor space measured between the centre line of party walls, including the thickness of external walls but excluding voids. Accessibility and usability are not criteria for exclusion from GFA. 3.2 URA reserves the right to decide on GFA matters based on the specific design of a development proposal on a case-by-case basis."
URA has the final say.. haha our "big bro" got hinged in this matter.
Nothing wrong with this.. all the contract you signed has the last statement as:
"The authority reserved the rights .........."
To promote creativity design of building structures, you can't be too rigid on what is what.. if the design is nice but some structures exceeded the GFA, why not, in this case, URA allow the structures to be GFA exempted? U want everything specified exactly.. why not just build containers?
Sometimes rule can't be too rigid.. flexibility will make things more nicer in long run...
NorthernStar
12-04-13, 12:14
you dont ask the agent, internal walls are not liveable, so do you pay for the internal walls? :).
what is shown in floorplan is included in your strata title.
my favourite is the 3% rule.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353175&postcount=67
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=353193&postcount=69
you only received surveyors' fee, not actual report itself.
try asking for surveyors' report you will get silent treatment.
The final surveyor report usually received when the project obtained it's final CSC... yes.. this 3% rule is always written in the contracts to safe-guard developer for their construction tolerant.. but most of the time, u will find the final strata area is, most of the time, less than what u bought but still within 3%...:D
The final surveyor report usually received when the project obtained it's final CSC... yes.. this 3% rule is always written in the contracts to safe-guard developer for their construction tolerant.. but most of the time, u will find the final strata area is, most of the time, less than what u bought but still within 3%...:D
do you mean most of the time, you will only get the final surveyor report when final CSC? when the actual surveying is done before TOP?
if until CSC, most likely the 1 year guarantee is over already, can owner still sue developer if more than 3% error? most people would forget about the surveyor report already, that's why not many people complaint.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=389078&postcount=1
"Mr Lim Biow Chuan (Mountbatten) asked if the margin of error developers were allowed to have on property area could be reduced from 3 to 1 per cent. Mr Lee said there were currently not many complaints on this, but added it would be considered if there were technological advancements."
The final surveyor report usually received when the project obtained it's final CSC... yes.. this 3% rule is always written in the contracts to safe-guard developer for their construction tolerant.. but most of the time, u will find the final strata area is, most of the time, less than what u bought but still within 3%...:D
You have data on some/many cases when it is not? Consider to share here?
Nothing wrong with this.. all the contract you signed has the last statement as:
"The authority reserved the rights .........."
To promote creativity design of building structures, you can't be too rigid on what is what.. if the design is nice but some structures exceeded the GFA, why not, in this case, URA allow the structures to be GFA exempted? U want everything specified exactly.. why not just build containers?
Sometimes rule can't be too rigid.. flexibility will make things more nicer in long run...
Design is very grey and subjective.how sure can we say all Officers who approved creativity, all super professional. We are all honest people.
NorthernStar
12-04-13, 15:09
do you mean most of the time, you will only get the final surveyor report when final CSC? when the actual surveying is done before TOP?
if until CSC, most likely the 1 year guarantee is over already, can owner still sue developer if more than 3% error? most people would forget about the surveyor report already, that's why not many people complaint.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showpost.php?p=389078&postcount=1
"Mr Lim Biow Chuan (Mountbatten) asked if the margin of error developers were allowed to have on property area could be reduced from 3 to 1 per cent. Mr Lee said there were currently not many complaints on this, but added it would be considered if there were technological advancements."
This is what mine and friends' experiences.. the letter from your lawyer will send to you ~ 1 year after TOP and stated what is the planed and actual size... if the error > 3%.. developer need to compensate..
anyway, what happen if people get 3% more?? --> they happily keep quiet and will not thank developer..;)
what ppl
This is what mine and friends' experiences.. the letter from your lawyer will send to you ~ 1 year after TOP and stated what is the planed and actual size... if the error > 3%.. developer need to compensate..
anyway, what happen if people get 3% more?? --> they happily keep quiet and will not thank developer..;)
what ppl
Will that gona happen?:D
NorthernStar
13-04-13, 08:53
Will that gona happen?:D
I would said nope in most cases....:D and I do think developer got the technologies to make the margin within 1% especially with the lego system (pre-cast)...
perhaps i have too much faith in technology to demand a 1% error.
is there any part of the building where it is critical to have a 1% error.
eg if they build the lift shaft 3% smaller, does it affect the operation lift?
does the 3% error also affect the ceiling height also?
floor to ceiling 3m, actual is 2.95m.
any grounds for complaint?
perhaps i have too much faith in technology to demand a 1% error.
is there any part of the building where it is critical to have a 1% error.
eg if they build the lift shaft 3% smaller, does it affect the operation lift?
does the 3% error also affect the ceiling height also?
floor to ceiling 3m, actual is 2.95m.
any grounds for complaint?
5cm? Should be quite difficult to miss by this much, especially we are talking about using basic modern technology in civil construction. Ancient builders were pin-point sharp already.
Developer may argue it is due to their many civil sub-contractors low standard work, but here all of our buyer’s money is paid to them as main contractor, they are responsible to check and make sure it is all well integrated and measured to a minimum error after product completed.
They may also mention "Give and take", but then which part/where is giving to you for free?
bargain hunter
15-04-13, 22:27
hey, our discussion did attract channel 8 to report a little something on this. :)
good job everyone.
propertyhans
15-04-13, 22:47
Yes saw that in the news too haha. Nowadays reporters have to rely on forum for news ah.
bargain hunter
15-04-13, 22:49
yah, they politely acknowledged, netizens, i guess that means us? :ashamed1:
Yes saw that in the news too haha. Nowadays reporters have to rely on forum for news ah.
probably we have reporters as our forum members who are looking for advice to buy their first condo or upgrade their condos.
since it is out in the news, maybe the ac ledge loophole may be plugged sooner rather than later. i am always hopeful. sad to live without hope.
Time for them to plug both the air-con ledge and super big balconies! Imagine a small unit of 500 sqft has a 50 sqft balcony and 50 sqft of air-con ledge?! :doh:
probably we have reporters as our forum members who are looking for advice to buy their first condo or upgrade their condos.
since it is out in the news, maybe the ac ledge loophole may be plugged sooner rather than later. i am always hopeful. sad to live without hope.
They should warn the public not to buy such units.
I am disappointed that the developers are using this to earn extra money.
They didnt pay for thr GFA afterall, why must rip buyers off like that ?
No wonder after TOP many owners wont let developers off and make them cough out huge sums rectifying whatever small defects they can find.
DKSG
They should warn the public not to buy such units.
I am disappointed that the developers are using this to earn extra money.
They didnt pay for thr GFA afterall, why must rip buyers off like that ?
No wonder after TOP many owners wont let developers off and make them cough out huge sums rectifying whatever small defects they can find.
DKSG
You should have been disappointed for many years, this is happening since the baywindow, planter time. Only condos TOP before 2005(?) have more "real" spaces.
Time for them to plug both the air-con ledge and super big balconies! Imagine a small unit of 500 sqft has a 50 sqft balcony and 50 sqft of air-con ledge?! :doh:
i am not a fan of balcony but i know people who are, plus only 50% of the balcony space is free, the other 50% comes from GFA if i remember correctly. and you can have some outdoor furniture to chill out when the weather is cool, so that is still acceptable. ac ledge is totally useless, that is a gaping loophole.
You should have been disappointed for many years, this is happening since the baywindow, planter time. Only condos TOP before 2005(?) have more "real" spaces.
bay window can still customise it and put a mattress on top of it (for the newer gen bay windows, the older ones up to chest height, that one really suck thumb. planter can put some decking and make it into a small balcony. what can ac ledge do? set up mahjong table and play with 3 other kakis?
bargain hunter
15-04-13, 23:52
seems like ura gave them a lukewarm answer. more like will try to keep it proportionate lah, that floor plans need to mark out total a/c ledge size. that's about it.
i also want to live in hope.
probably we have reporters as our forum members who are looking for advice to buy their first condo or upgrade their condos.
since it is out in the news, maybe the ac ledge loophole may be plugged sooner rather than later. i am always hopeful. sad to live without hope.
seems like ura gave them a lukewarm answer. more like will try to keep it proportionate lah, that floor plans need to mark out total a/c ledge size. that's about it.
i also want to live in hope.
they need to think through before they come up with a firm guideline i reckon. but marking out the exact ac ledge space will be a good start.
No lah you are wrong. The 10% extra space for balcony are free and not covered by GFA (allowed by URA). If developers believe their project can sell better with big balconies, by all means, but not because they are trying to exploit the free 10% balcony space given to them that even such small 1-BR units got >20% space in balcony and air-con ledge! That is a different story! This is same as URA never say condos must have tennis court but all decent condos will definitely come with tennis court despite taking up so much land space! (If yours don't, you know what I mean... :p).
i am not a fan of balcony but i know people who are, plus only 50% of the balcony space is free, the other 50% comes from GFA if i remember correctly. and you can have some outdoor furniture to chill out when the weather is cool, so that is still acceptable. ac ledge is totally useless, that is a gaping loophole.
No lah you are wrong. The 10% extra space for balcony are free and not covered by GFA (allowed by URA). If developers believe their project can sell better with big balconies, by all means, but not because they are trying to exploit the free 10% balcony space given to them that even such small 1-BR units got >20% space in balcony and air-con ledge! That is a different story! This is same as URA never say condos must have tennis court but all decent condos will definitely come with tennis court despite taking up so much land space! (If yours don't, you know what I mean... :p).
oh ok, so at least the 10% is capped and usable, the ac ledge really have no justification or use.
bargain hunter
16-04-13, 00:26
does that mean sentosa condos are not decent? i believe none (please correct me if i'm wrong) come with a tennis court.
No lah you are wrong. The 10% extra space for balcony are free and not covered by GFA (allowed by URA). If developers believe their project can sell better with big balconies, by all means, but not because they are trying to exploit the free 10% balcony space given to them that even such small 1-BR units got >20% space in balcony and air-con ledge! That is a different story! This is same as URA never say condos must have tennis court but all decent condos will definitely come with tennis court despite taking up so much land space! (If yours don't, you know what I mean... :p).
does that mean sentosa condos are not decent? i believe none (please correct me if i'm wrong) come with a tennis court.
decent... decent profits for the developer. heh heh.
A condo with no tennis court is definitely not decent to potential tenants. :p
does that mean sentosa condos are not decent? i believe none (please correct me if i'm wrong) come with a tennis court.
if the potential tenants aren't really into tennis......
Time for them to plug both the air-con ledge and super big balconies! Imagine a small unit of 500 sqft has a 50 sqft balcony and 50 sqft of air-con ledge?! :doh:
50sqft balcony - appeals to some who have an insatiable need to suntan or to those who run a laundry business and need the space to dry clothes.
50sqft air-con ledge - total rip-off (is there any development that has such a design?) unless the ledge serves as a platform for some funky flying fox feature
Condo should start to build facilities like golf driving range. :D
Condo should start to build facilities like golf driving range. :D
NOOO, you can't tee or drive off from the ledge. wah piang, everyone will have broken windows
Condo should start to build facilities like golf driving range. :D
sounds good :D
NOOO, you can't tee or drive off from the ledge. wah piang, everyone will have broken windows
Then I can practice golf at my balcony. :cheers5:
Then I can practice golf at my balcony. :cheers5:
The bayshore has one.
Many condo have putting green.
I can't think of any has driving range
the palette is supposed to have a golf simulator
Is RC ledges count into your GFA and do you pay for it?
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