View Full Version : Tan Kian Lian suggests a 30% resale levy
phantom_opera
13-03-13, 21:36
- The new flats should be priced at a 30 per cent discount to current market prices.
- The owners who bought new flats under this pricing regime will be required to pay a levy of 30 per cent to the HDB when they sell their units in future. In essence, the HDB is a 30 per cent co-owner of these flats.
... would this work?!
if can rent out after 5y MOP, the rental yield will be 10%, leverage yield will be 20% ... who will sell then ??
- The new flats should be priced at a 30 per cent discount to current market prices.
- The owners who bought new flats under this pricing regime will be required to pay a levy of 30 per cent to the HDB when they sell their units in future. In essence, the HDB is a 30 per cent co-owner of these flats.
... would this work?!
if can rent out after 5y MOP, the rental yield will be 10%, leverage yield will be 20% ... who will sell then ??Sounds good! MOP extended to 10yrs at the same time lagi best!
maybe after kbw he take over lagi best..:D:D:D
- The new flats should be priced at a 30 per cent discount to current market prices.
- The owners who bought new flats under this pricing regime will be required to pay a levy of 30 per cent to the HDB when they sell their units in future. In essence, the HDB is a 30 per cent co-owner of these flats.
... would this work?!
if can rent out after 5y MOP, the rental yield will be 10%, leverage yield will be 20% ... who will sell then ??
It will be even better if the levy is imposed on PRs that sell their flats.
LOL
It will be even better if the levy is imposed on PRs that sell their flats.
LOL
so childish.
It's only fair actually.. U want a discount? Make sure u aren't making money from it.. If not u're just a hypocrite who's hoping to profit..there are so many of these people around
Many just want to buy at grandmother's price of $20k & sell at $800k 5 years later!
It's only fair actually.. U want a discount? Make sure u aren't making money from it.. If not u're just a hypocrite who's hoping to profit..there are so many of these people around
Many just want to buy at grandmother's price of $20k & sell at $800k 5 years later!
You are crazy.....What "many" ?
It is The WHOLE WORLD FROM USA TO CHINA that wants to do that: buy at $20k and sell at $800k.
otherwise how to earn money as property investor ? might as well go gamble in stock markets tiobo?
I think those 3 & 4 bedder at sengkang and punggol is reasonably affordable. But humans being greedy want those prices for flats in queenstown...
- The new flats should be priced at a 30 per cent discount to current market prices.
- The owners who bought new flats under this pricing regime will be required to pay a levy of 30 per cent to the HDB when they sell their units in future. In essence, the HDB is a 30 per cent co-owner of these flats.
... would this work?!
if can rent out after 5y MOP, the rental yield will be 10%, leverage yield will be 20% ... who will sell then ??
apply 30% tax to the rental as well..
- The new flats should be priced at a 30 per cent discount to current market prices.
- The owners who bought new flats under this pricing regime will be required to pay a levy of 30 per cent to the HDB when they sell their units in future. In essence, the HDB is a 30 per cent co-owner of these flats.
... would this work?!
if can rent out after 5y MOP, the rental yield will be 10%, leverage yield will be 20% ... who will sell then ??
yes this is v good. help widen the rich poor divide. make the not so well of worst off. brilliant suggestion ?
Hi..I hope it sets for a big correction. Back to basic.
so childish.
Why childish? PR should not be allowed to buy public housing in the first place.
You check if PR in hong kong can buy public housing.
:doh:
Why childish? PR should not be allowed to buy public housing in the first place.
You check if PR in hong kong can buy public housing.
:doh:
so cannot buy rent from you is it? PR buys from the 1st owner who is singaporean. it benefits the Singaporean.
so narrow minded. can only see 5cm infront ? take off that myopic glasses and look further pls.
so cannot buy rent from you is it? PR buys from the 1st owner who is singaporean. it benefits the Singaporean.
so narrow minded. can only see 5cm infront ? take off that myopic glasses and look further pls.
Going by your counter comment, are you also supportive that foreigners should be allowed to buy (HDB) from 1st owner who is singaporean? since it benefits the Singaporean.
Why childish? PR should not be allowed to buy public housing in the first place.
You check if PR in hong kong can buy public housing.
:doh:
This bring us back to the fundamentals of HDB flats.
If subsidized HDB flats is meant to help people own a home, then the 30% levy and etc etc levies will work. It gives lower income Singaporeans a home they can own.
If the idea of HDB is to give subsidies which ultimately means profit directly into citizens' pocket, then selling the flats to citizens at current market prices (with a bit of discount) is the right way to do it.
DKSG
perhaps could just increase MOP for new flats to 10yrs, resale to 7 years instead?
Nobody gets hurt i suppose? jus stay n enjoy hdb abit longer.. lol:D
perhaps could just increase MOP for new flats to 10yrs, resale to 7 years instead?
Nobody gets hurt i suppose? jus stay n enjoy hdb abit longer.. lol:D
10 years is too short. I propose 15 years for both new flats and resale. 15 years is long enough to ensure there is no speculation.
Going by your counter comment, are you also supportive that foreigners should be allowed to buy (HDB) from 1st owner who is singaporean? since it benefits the Singaporean.
Good question. Does it matters? as long red IC is singaporean. or want to go back to the 1800s and find the so call REAL Singapuraean?
10 years is too short. I propose 15 years for both new flats and resale. 15 years is long enough to ensure there is no speculation.
I think why not 20? Make it such that zero speculation since it for stay and eventually retire n die in it.?
This bring us back to the fundamentals of HDB flats.
If subsidized HDB flats is meant to help people own a home, then the 30% levy and etc etc levies will work. It gives lower income Singaporeans a home they can own.
If the idea of HDB is to give subsidies which ultimately means profit directly into citizens' pocket, then selling the flats to citizens at current market prices (with a bit of discount) is the right way to do it.
DKSG
Question here is do we view HDB home as a assets or just a roof? that will clearly structure where the policy should go. If everyone want it as utility then by all means. but dont cry mother cry father at end of 30yrs where there are no value in it.
Treat ur home like ur CAR! end of COE is scrap value.
Can people accept that for thier home?
10 years is too short. I propose 15 years for both new flats and resale. 15 years is long enough to ensure there is no speculation.
but 15yrs is seriously very painful... lol
Good question. Does it matters? as long red IC is singaporean. or want to go back to the 1800s and find the so call REAL Singapuraean?
Not committing your position to my "good question"? Or my "good question" has floored you?
called sgbuyer "childish" and then gave him/her such a strong counter comment... and now no reply to my "good question".
of coz as long red IC is singaporean - fully agreed.
but PR and foreigner are both not red IC.
but 15yrs is seriously very painful... lol
15 years is not a long time.
but PR and foreigner are both not red IC.
well, "Permanent" residents should have the right.
Otherwise there is no need to have anything "Permanent". PR is an incentive to attract talented people.
btw I dun believe PR is the cause of the "high" HDB prices.
well, "Permanent" residents should have the right.
Otherwise there is no need to have anything "Permanent". PR is an incentive to attract talented people.
Yup, PR should be ranked ahead of foreigners - agreed.
how far ahead will then depend on govt policies.
btw I dun believe PR is the cause of the "high" HDB prices.
I believe the ground sentiments are more on the question if PR should enjoy "subsidised" (HDB) flats.
For people like myself who already enjoyed this "subsidised" flat, it doesnt really concerns me. High HDB prices i like more than low HDB prices..
Not committing your position to my "good question"? Or my "good question" has floored you?
called sgbuyer "childish" and then gave him/her such a strong counter comment... and now no reply to my "good question".
of coz as long red IC is singaporean - fully agreed.
but PR and foreigner are both not red IC.
Thus the non red IC buys resale from the RED IC who bought lower from government. So thats fair. Coz new cash injection a new person paying supporting the local singaporean.
Its a fair .
Why I say childish? Coz these days mentality is I win u must all loose. I piss on your pot to make myself feel good. u cannot gain only I gain mentality dont work. no such thing. its a mutual benefit. Original singaporean owner makes $ and the PR gets a place to stay. If market goes up the PR decided to sell and upgrade its his/her profit coz they took the risk to pay for the original owner. If down they also have to take the lost. fair enough.
I believe the ground sentiments are more on the question if PR should enjoy "subsidised" (HDB) flats.
For people like myself who already enjoyed this "subsidised" flat, it doesnt really concerns me. High HDB prices i like more than low HDB prices..
How is that enjoyed if the PR must buy resale? coz the enjoyment would have been the 1st owner. subsequent enjoyment is part of the risk the PR buyer made. cant be green eye abt it.
So if I sell to a singaporean and the 2nd time singaporean make $ subsequently means ok? so the 3rd singaporean buying is the sucker?
to add PR buys resale adds to the liquidity of the HDB. Sells have someone to sell to and also cash out from it. If every Singaporean have a HDB no 1 to sell to. how illiquid can that be?
end up we want government to buy back? I am sure the guy who sold his/her HDB for 1M is a happy camper . But can he/her be jealous if the HDB suddenly go higher? Its a matter of timing and what he/she did with the 1M.
1st time buyer can still go for a BTO which is from 160K for 3bed room or 330K 5 bed room. which is reasonable.
phantom_opera
14-03-13, 18:23
Possible fresh property curbs won't affect existing flat owners: Khaw
Question here is do we view HDB home as a assets or just a roof? that will clearly structure where the policy should go. If everyone want it as utility then by all means. but dont cry mother cry father at end of 30yrs where there are no value in it.
Treat ur home like ur CAR! end of COE is scrap value.
Can people accept that for thier home?
oic so in the past when whole HDB unit cannot be let out, when hdb flats serve the basic need of affordable public housing, they end up having no value?
utility = no value? lol
making ridiculous assertions only make yourself look foolish and extreme.
Going by your counter comment, are you also supportive that foreigners should be allowed to buy (HDB) from 1st owner who is singaporean? since it benefits the Singaporean.
yes. I support that. if not its only Singaporean buy from Singaporean limited liquidity.
oic so in the past when whole HDB unit cannot be let out, when hdb flats serve the basic need of affordable public housing, they end up having no value?
utility = no value? lol
making ridiculous assertions only make yourself look foolish and extreme.
this statement i agree with minority.
this is not a ridiculuous assertion.
why is government allowing HDB rental, it is to unlock the value.
If HDB cannot rent out, so 0% rental yield. would anybody pay for something that has lease running down, 0% yield.
btw, gold also 0% yield, but it never runs down.
oic so in the past when whole HDB unit cannot be let out, when hdb flats serve the basic need of affordable public housing, they end up having no value?
utility = no value? lol
making ridiculous assertions only make yourself look foolish and extreme.
once u allow to use ur CPF to pay for ur HDB. ur home is no longer a roof it have become part of ur assets and retirement.
so u mean u will be will to accept ur house is like a car? stay for 60yrs and become scrap value?
in between when u want to sell u can only sell it at residue value? if thats fine with u then ok. great. coz its ur CPF man.. u expect 2.5-4% a year but u willing to get zero from ur home?
well, "Permanent" residents should have the right.
Otherwise there is no need to have anything "Permanent". PR is an incentive to attract talented people.
btw I dun believe PR is the cause of the "high" HDB prices.
PR is not the cause of the "high" HDB prices, it is one of the main cause.
if singaporean find resale price too high, they go for new sale HDB.
PR has no option but to buy in the resale HDB market, which is still the cheapest housing available.
PR is not the cause of the "high" HDB prices, it is one of the main cause.
if singaporean find resale price too high, they go for new sale HDB.
PR has no option but to buy in the resale HDB market, which is still the cheapest housing available.
the other cause are also the Singaporean en-blockers. Again I re-iterate I think its good. the enblocker made $ from selling their landed or big condo. buys a HDB to retire. same time help the original Singaporean owner fullill thier dream to upgrade. So be it PR or Singaporean i feel its a win win.
Regulators
14-03-13, 19:48
I agree that prs should not be allowed to profit from the hdb flat. there is no logic in having them profit from our hdb flats, mess up our pty market n just pack up n return to their countries anytime they want.
Why childish? PR should not be allowed to buy public housing in the first place.
You check if PR in hong kong can buy public housing.
:doh:
Regulators
14-03-13, 19:51
PRs are still foreigners, remember that. our government is not beholden to them n our country has no obligation to give foreigners cheap housing.
PR is not the cause of the "high" HDB prices, it is one of the main cause.
if singaporean find resale price too high, they go for new sale HDB.
PR has no option but to buy in the resale HDB market, which is still the cheapest housing available.
Possible fresh property curbs won't affect existing flat owners: Khaw
huat ahhh..existing owners..:D:D:D
a few years ago i went for a property investment seminar and a VERY influential person in the property market gave a talk...he mentioned he was STILL holding on to his HDB exec flat and collecting rental income..eventhough he has SEVERAL other properties...both LANDEd and PC...:cool:
U really hate PR, dun you ? If PR has the identical treatment as foreigner, then what is the point of PR ? "Permanent" has got to mean something. SG does need some incentive to attract talented ppl to stay. Allowing them to buy the cheapest form of housing at market rate, what's wrong with that ?
Look I said the above not because I profited from selling a HDB to PR. I have never enjoyed a single cent of "HDB bonus" from gov, unlike most of the ppl here who have. I am not complaining.
this statement i agree with minority.
this is not a ridiculuous assertion.
why is government allowing HDB rental, it is to unlock the value.
If HDB cannot rent out, so 0% rental yield. would anybody pay for something that has lease running down, 0% yield.
btw, gold also 0% yield, but it never runs down.
in the past u cannot rent out whole unit, did hdb become no value? no right? lol
u must know what happens when hdb lease runs down. this is rudimentary.
the only FORM of housing the govt can EXERT stringent authority over is public housing...GOD bless...:cool:
once u allow to use ur CPF to pay for ur HDB. ur home is no longer a roof it have become part of ur assets and retirement.
so u mean u will be will to accept ur house is like a car? stay for 60yrs and become scrap value?
in between when u want to sell u can only sell it at residue value? if thats fine with u then ok. great. coz its ur CPF man.. u expect 2.5-4% a year but u willing to get zero from ur home?
LOL, how is your hdb similar to a car? Your own stay leasehold home, be it hdb or private, is no different when it comes to retirement. In fact hdb gives u more assurance & will do SERS for your hdb while u can only hope some developer will enbloc your leasehold private.
asserting HDB will become no value just bcos it can no longer be rented out for income is nothing more than fear mongering and frankly quite laughable.
LOL, how is your hdb similar to a car? Your own stay leasehold home, be it hdb or private, is no different when it comes to retirement. In fact hdb gives u more assurance & will do SERS for your hdb while u can only hope some developer will enbloc your leasehold private.
asserting HDB will become no value just bcos it can no longer be rented out for income is nothing more than fear mongering and frankly quite laughable.
By the time your hdb SERS u may have died or pass away. Lol
Not all Hdb will go SERS.
LOL, how is your hdb similar to a car? Your own stay leasehold home, be it hdb or private, is no different when it comes to retirement. In fact hdb gives u more assurance & will do SERS for your hdb while u can only hope some developer will enbloc your leasehold private.
asserting HDB will become no value just bcos it can no longer be rented out for income is nothing more than fear mongering and frankly quite laughable.
well when u have buy back that will be the end of hdb is asset. LOL anyway good for the folks. complain and complain. you will get HDB Cheap. just that it will have no value at the end of the stay.
Work harder.. good
I agree that prs should not be allowed to profit from the hdb flat. there is no logic in having them profit from our hdb flats, mess up our pty market n just pack up n return to their countries anytime they want.
profit? coz they pay good $ to the 1st owner means they profit? wat a shallow minded view.
u mean 1st owner dont make ? of course 1st owner make coz 1st owner buy from government cheap!
so if the PR buy from 1st owner and loose $ subsequently means can? thats a really shallow view. :doh: :doh:
Regulators
14-03-13, 23:47
long before the first cooling measure came into being, the PRs were already buying and selling hdb flats to make money out of government housing. I think you must be living in mars all that time not to even know that :doh:
profit? coz they pay good $ to the 1st owner means they profit? wat a shallow minded view.
u mean 1st owner dont make ? of course 1st owner make coz 1st owner buy from government cheap!
so if the PR buy from 1st owner and loose $ subsequently means can? thats a really shallow view. :doh: :doh:
long before the first cooling measure came into being, the PRs were already buying and selling hdb flats to make money out of government housing. I think you must be living in mars all that time not to even know that :doh:
i dont think PRs are philantropists, do you?
if cannot make money,do you think they will buy HDB from Singaporean?
So even if they buy high from Singaporean, PRs are still hoping to be able to profit from their investment be it from rental or from capital appreciation.
so even though HDB price is high, the rental yield is able to justify their purchase.
Allthepies
15-03-13, 07:35
long before the first cooling measure came into being, the PRs were already buying and selling hdb flats to make money out of government housing. I think you must be living in mars all that time not to even know that :doh:
PR are smart then. At least we give PR to smart people.
long before the first cooling measure came into being, the PRs were already buying and selling hdb flats to make money out of government housing. I think you must be living in mars all that time not to even know that :doh:
So the PR buy from who again??? :doh: :doh: :doh:
Regulators
15-03-13, 08:32
you don't get my point. they buy to speculate before the countermeasures were in place. they buy, rent out, wait for price to go up then sell, while living in a condo n some living in Malaysia as they are Malaysian prs. so are you saying our govt should give foreigners the free reign to speculate in public housing?
i dont think PRs are philantropists, do you?
if cannot make money,do you think they will buy HDB from Singaporean?
So even if they buy high from Singaporean, PRs are still hoping to be able to profit from their investment be it from rental or from capital appreciation.
so even though HDB price is high, the rental yield is able to justify their purchase.
Regulators
15-03-13, 08:34
so based on your logic, our govt must be stupid to create a loophole for foreigners to speculate in public housing :doh:
PR are smart then. At least we give PR to smart people.
I was just thinking, can we adopt Australia's style where foreigners are allowed to buy but they have to sell to a local. In that case, the fate of the secondary market will be closely tied to the fate of the income of the locals? It becomes a self adjusting mechanism where if foreigners can see the potential of it being affordable for a local to buy and also make a profiit in the sale, they would still continue to invest here.
So the PR buy from who again??? :doh: :doh: :doh:
Can always buy private.
if they cannot afford it means they are not earning enough and may not be the kind of immigrants we want. :)
Regulators
15-03-13, 09:36
in Australia, foreigners are not even allowed to buy private resale, they can only buy new launches.
I was just thinking, can we adopt Australia's style where foreigners are allowed to buy but they have to sell to a local. In that case, the fate of the secondary market will be closely tied to the fate of the income of the locals? It becomes a self adjusting mechanism where if foreigners can see the potential of it being affordable for a local to buy and also make a profiit in the sale, they would still continue to invest here.
you don't get my point. they buy to speculate before the countermeasures were in place. they buy, rent out, wait for price to go up then sell, while living in a condo n some living in Malaysia as they are Malaysian prs. so are you saying our govt should give foreigners the free reign to speculate in public housing?
TWO thumbs up!!
yes. I support that. if not its only Singaporean buy from Singaporean limited liquidity.
Oh... u support an amendment of the policy to allow foreigners to buy resale HDB! Finally u responded to my "good question" after beating around the bush and say red IC this and that... Luckily our MIW is not silly enough to pass an amendment to this housing policy.
Oh... u support an amendment of the policy to allow foreigners to buy resale HDB! Finally u responded to my "good question" after beating around the bush and say red IC this and that... Luckily our MIW is not silly enough to pass an amendment to this housing policy.
I am lost. the orginal question was who is singaporean. So my answer is RED IC. which is the 1st owner of the HDB.
I am all for PR to buy resale HDB coz it benefit the Singaporean. So I am all for it. Its the Xenophobic people cannot let go the fact that there is a chance the PR might make $ after buying from the singaporean. To me thats Win Win. coz singaporean make liao mah. the PR might sell to another PR. So thats no issue. If some singaporean want to pay high price for it. its up to market factor. coz there are other options like BTO etc. why go pay more when u have options.
in Australia, foreigners are not even allowed to buy private resale, they can only buy new launches.
want to compare australia. Australia have Cows. opps they also have 40-45% tax.? how abt those? dont selective compare.
I was just thinking, can we adopt Australia's style where foreigners are allowed to buy but they have to sell to a local. In that case, the fate of the secondary market will be closely tied to the fate of the income of the locals? It becomes a self adjusting mechanism where if foreigners can see the potential of it being affordable for a local to buy and also make a profiit in the sale, they would still continue to invest here.
why would the local want to buy from foreigners? They will go BTO.
Can always buy private.
if they cannot afford it means they are not earning enough and may not be the kind of immigrants we want. :)
oh I forgot. I thought all want cheap living environment? so now want high end FT come. So next complain High end FT take up our high end jobs depriving locals of high end jobs?
:doh: :doh: :doh:
so based on your logic, our govt must be stupid to create a loophole for foreigners to speculate in public housing :doh:
speculate? Then maybe they should just let the local folks suffer no assets appreciation. I think thats best. since all so xenophobic.
I am lost. the orginal question was who is singaporean. So my answer is RED IC. which is the 1st owner of the HDB.
I am all for PR to buy resale HDB coz it benefit the Singaporean. So I am all for it. Its the Xenophobic people cannot let go the fact that there is a chance the PR might make $ after buying from the singaporean. To me thats Win Win. coz singaporean make liao mah. the PR might sell to another PR. So thats no issue. If some singaporean want to pay high price for it. its up to market factor. coz there are other options like BTO etc. why go pay more when u have options.
so do u agree PRs should not be allowed to buy BTOs?
so do u agree PRs should not be allowed to buy BTOs?
since when a PR couple can buy BTO from HDB as 1st timer? get ur facts right.
Regulators
15-03-13, 10:47
so you are implying that property can only appreciate in value through speculative activities from foreigners? :doh: :doh:
speculate? Then maybe they should just let the local folks suffer no assets appreciation. I think thats best. since all so xenophobic.
I am lost. the orginal question was who is singaporean. So my answer is RED IC. which is the 1st owner of the HDB.
I am all for PR to buy resale HDB coz it benefit the Singaporean. So I am all for it. Its the Xenophobic people cannot let go the fact that there is a chance the PR might make $ after buying from the singaporean. To me thats Win Win. coz singaporean make liao mah. the PR might sell to another PR. So thats no issue. If some singaporean want to pay high price for it. its up to market factor. coz there are other options like BTO etc. why go pay more when u have options.
Yes, i am now aware that you are all for PR AND foreigner to buy resale HDB as it benefits the singaporean. I am on the fence for PR but your stand on the foreigner is laughable frankly.
oh I forgot. I thought all want cheap living environment? so now want high end FT come. So next complain High end FT take up our high end jobs depriving locals of high end jobs?
:doh: :doh: :doh:
No one will reject genuine talents, foreign or local. And if an employer is willing to fork out the sky to bring in such foreigners on P1 pass, u wont welcome them?
It is the half-past six foreigners on Q1 or P2 passes that are directly competing with majority of local PMETs at all levels that is diluting the Spore Core.
Regulators
15-03-13, 10:50
I was replying to kane's post about Australian property, dodo :doh:
want to compare australia. Australia have Cows. opps they also have 40-45% tax.? how abt those? dont selective compare.
so you are implying that property can only appreciate in value through speculative activities from foreigners? :doh: :doh:
he does not know fundamental enonomics.
so you are implying that property can only appreciate in value through speculative activities from foreigners? :doh: :doh:
No I am implying it would be more active and Singaporean get more $ injected into pool. given the limited singapore pool. also singaporean have BTO options also from a cash injection perspective foreigner injection of new cash to the singaporean pool helps the singaporean. if not its just singaporean taking $ from another singaporean. One singaporean get richer the other get singaporean poorer.
he does not know fundamental enonomics.
then u enlighten us pls. instead of just complain FT n more FT complains.
How can it help the Singaporean if HDB only target another Singaporean is paying for the resale?
since when a PR couple can buy BTO from HDB as 1st timer? get ur facts right.
what will happen is one of them will take up citizenship while the spouse remains as PR. Know one such china couple. Most of the time they are not in spore and their hdb being utilised by "relatives" lol.
speculate? Then maybe they should just let the local folks suffer no assets appreciation. I think thats best. since all so xenophobic.
hang on, so policies designed to benefit sporeans but not advantageous to foreigners and PRs are deemed xenophobic to u?
wow! playing the xenophobia card liao, just like the clown prince.
what will happen is one of them will take up citizenship while the spouse remains as PR. Know one such china couple. Most of the time they are not in spore and their hdb being utilised by "relatives" lol.
Well he/she is citizen he pay tax he/she should be entitled the benefit. what abt the singaporean guy married a china girl? or the Singaporean girl married the ang mor? All are singaporean they pay taxes they work here and contribute to the economy. children's are here. then they deserve the benifits. regardless or historical reason.
If like that ur ah kong is also same wat. when they come from china they still keep ties with china village. send $ back go back visit. So is ur ah kong a lesser Singaporean?
Dont count the beans. people so focus on counting the beans than focus on doing something constructive.
Regulators
15-03-13, 11:05
one singaporean sells to one pr, eventually the pr sells back to singaporean and balik kampong after that which brings about two effects:
1) the pr that returns home earns a tidy profit using hdb as money making instrument.
2) the pr helps to drive up property prices and by so doing, he is not genuinely buying hdb to home his family.
if singaporeans speculate, we are writing our own history, but why allow foreigners to manipulate? some are mimicking singaporeans in buying hdb to rent and living in condo, shouldnt that be singaporean's entitlement and not foreigners? this is the reason why many foreigners see no point taking up citizenship here as they are equally entitled to these benefits even without citizenship.
No I am implying it would be more active and Singaporean get more $ injected into pool. given the limited singapore pool. also singaporean have BTO options also from a cash injection perspective foreigner injection of new cash to the singaporean pool helps the singaporean. if not its just singaporean taking $ from another singaporean. One singaporean get richer the other get singaporean poorer.
then u enlighten us pls. instead of just complain FT n more FT complains.
How can it help the Singaporean if HDB only target another Singaporean is paying for the resale?
Did I "complain FT n more FT complains"???
HDB public housing can have asset appreciation (with or without PR and/or foreigner buying)... prices are always a function of demand and supply.
Did I "complain FT n more FT complains"???
HDB public housing can have asset appreciation (with or without PR and/or foreigner buying)... prices are always a function of demand and supply.
So if more singaporean need more affordable housing kao pay never build more BTO for subsidized housing. and more subsidized housing is build so more singaporean can enjoy cheaper then market price housing. How is that going to help the resale folks?
u never answer my question. how it would benefit the Singaporean then ?
No I am implying it would be more active and Singaporean get more $ injected into pool. given the limited singapore pool. also singaporean have BTO options also from a cash injection perspective foreigner injection of new cash to the singaporean pool helps the singaporean. if not its just singaporean taking $ from another singaporean. One singaporean get richer the other get singaporean poorer.
the basic incongruence in your premise does not gel with the the fundamental mission of the HDB - that is of affordable housing, and not as an investment. The minister has also reinforced this and said HDB may need to return to its roots. What is very clear, although he is not saying out loud, is today's BTO prices are no longer affordable. Hence the need to look at perhaps a new category of BTOs that are 30% cheaper. This will be for the greater good in the long run.
the govt's tune is changing but you are still stuck in the old rhetoric of asset enhancement from GCT's era. I think better to wise up and prepare for the coming changes. :)
p.s. not vested in HDB.
the basic incongruence in your premise does not gel with the the fundamental mission of the HDB - that is of affordable housing, and not as an investment. The minister has also reinforced this and said HDB may need to return to its roots. What is very clear, although he is not saying out loud, is today's BTO prices are no longer affordable. Hence the need to look at perhaps a new category of BTOs that are 30% cheaper. This will be for the greater good in the long run.
the govt's tune is changing but you are still stuck in the old rhetoric of asset enhancement from GCT's era. I think better to wise up and prepare for the coming changes. :)
p.s. not vested in HDB.
They day u use ur CPF to pay for HDB its a investment. the government tune is changing but not changing to what people think they want. Cheap and value housing.
government will give u cheap housing but no value. will people want? will it help the people who worked and later in life want to cash out and retire? how would it help the people? in the end the people will regret what they ask for. coz its just cheap housing.
I am not vested to. But I feel this don't help the Singaporean coz in the end the generation will have to work harder to retire.
Regulators
15-03-13, 11:15
if the government sell hdb flats super cheap to singaporeans and u can still rent it to foreigners at $2-3k mnthly, who wouldnt want?? This is a no brainer.
They day u use ur CPF to pay for HDB its a investment. the government tune is changing but not changing to what people think they want. Cheap and value housing.
government will give u cheap housing but no value. will people want? will it help the people who worked and later in life want to cash out and retire? how would it help the people? in the end the people will regret what they ask for. coz its just cheap housing.
I am not vested to. But I feel this don't help the Singaporean coz in the end the generation will have to work harder to retire.
So if more singaporean need more affordable housing kao pay never build more BTO for subsidized housing. and more subsidized housing is build so more singaporean can enjoy cheaper then market price housing. How is that going to help the resale folks?
u never answer my question. how it would benefit the Singaporean then ?
Ok, that is your question. I did not get it as a question to me the first time round as i thought it is very straightforward.
1. BTO prices are set by govt (at least this is what KBW says). Combined income <$10k can buy at this "subsidised" price.
2. Resale HDB prices are set by demand and supply by those earning combined income >$10k or 3rd timer etc. or those who die die wants that preferred location. They will have higher dispensable income considering that typically they would have earned and saved over the years.
3. The benefits will be No. 2 minus No. 1 = capital gain.
PR and foreigner need not come into play.
if the government sell hdb flats super cheap to singaporeans and u can still rent it to foreigners at $2-3k mnthly, who wouldnt want?? This is a no brainer.
yeah so those who need to cash out sell to who? Singaporean? but the Singaporean buy at so call market rate. 2-3K? cover what? 2-3K are good for the 1st timers.
Thats goes back to my point which is the Singaporean benefit from it as 1st timer.
Also now after all the complain there are cap on rental. so dont expect rental yield be getting higher.
Ok, that is your question. I did not get it as a question to me the first time round as i thought it is very straightforward.
1. BTO prices are set by govt (at least this is what KBW says). Combined income <$10k can buy at this "subsidised" price.
2. Resale HDB prices are set by demand and supply by those earning combined income >$10k or 3rd timer etc. or those who die die wants that preferred location. They will have higher dispensable income considering that typically they would have earned and saved over the years.
3. The benefits will be No. 2 minus No. 1 = capital gain.
PR and foreigner need not come into play.
So if all singaporean are buying BTO what drives the 1? its just a value without much liquidity. u might have the delta of 2-1. but when u want to sell not much buyers. Then wats the use?
Want a bigger delta n liquidity over longer time frame u need new population that buys the Resale. and this new population have no access to BTO thus it helps with the 1.
Also move this time bar ahead to 2030 or 2060 where most are retirees. All want to cash out. sell to who? a even smaller population of Singaporean? but those would rather buy new BTO at subsided rates. Then back to ur supply n demand question. Then how then government stop building BTO and force the new generation of younger Singaporean to buy from the older folks?
How would it benefit the new singaporean generation then?
They day u use ur CPF to pay for HDB its a investment. the government tune is changing but not changing to what people think they want. Cheap and value housing.
government will give u cheap housing but no value. will people want? will it help the people who worked and later in life want to cash out and retire? how would it help the people? in the end the people will regret what they ask for. coz its just cheap housing.
I am not vested to. But I feel this don't help the Singaporean coz in the end the generation will have to work harder to retire.
haha if u want to insist it is an investment by all means.
but to me a hdb at best is a very poor investment grade asset. Unlike private pty, the bank does not accept a hdb flat as collateral. You cannot take an equity loan from it. there are also too many rules & restrictions governing it. But i can empathise why some folks will insist it is an investment. perhaps it will be the first large purchase they will make in their life time, so naturally expectations and aspirations are high. But such expectations are unrealistic and need to be tampered.
you are not the govt, we just have to wait and see how these new BTOs that are 30% cheaper will be received by the public.
haha if u want to insist it is an investment by all means.
but to me a hdb at best is a very poor investment grade asset. Unlike private pty, the bank does not accept a hdb flat as collateral. You cannot take an equity loan from it. there are also too many rules & restrictions governing it. But i can empathise why some folks will insist it is an investment. perhaps it will be the first large purchase they will make in their life time, so naturally expectations and aspirations are high. But such expectations are unrealistic and need to be tampered.
you are not the govt, u just have to wait and see how these new BTOs that are 30% cheaper
Well singaporean consist the rich folks like u. but there are also the poor ones without any investment mindset or know how. HDB is their safety net.
yes I am not government. but to me rich folks like you are just being selfish. the poor folks will suffer in the end. but then again. TAX u guys man. 45% TAX! That will help.
Well singaporean consist the rich folks like u. but there are also the poor ones without any investment mindset or know how. HDB is their safety net.
Precisely, so wouldnt new BTOs that are 30% cheaper serve the poorer ones better by not subjecting them to big mortgage burden at an early stage of their life? Since they are 1st-timers they have their life ahead to look forward to. I hardly think they will consider these flats as their retirement homes. After all dont everyone aspires to eventually own a private some day?
Regulators
15-03-13, 11:35
if hdb can only be bought by citizens, most singaporeans will still be having a windfall. with the great influx of foreigners who need housing, they can either rent hdb, rent condo or buy condo. with the huge demand in rental of hdb flats, prices will naturally be driven up because rental yield is good. for foreigners who intend to live here for the long term and make singapore their home and intend to buy hdb, they need to work harder to qualify for citizenship then they can be rewarded with subsidised housing from the govt.
as of now, the govt is giving any tom dick or harry prs with no root in singapore the right to buy hdb flats whether they deserve the reward or not. there are many hdb flats still owned by prs not living in it which is why singaporeans are complaining that they have nowhere to buy in matured estates. govt should rightfully target prs buying hdb flats to make money and not singaporeans.
So if all singaporean are buying BTO what drives the 1? its just a value without much liquidity. u might have the delta of 2-1. but when u want to sell not much buyers. Then wats the use?
Want a bigger delta n liquidity over longer time frame u need new population that buys the Resale. and this new population have no access to BTO thus it helps with the 1.
Also move this time bar ahead to 2030 or 2060 where most are retirees. All want to cash out. sell to who? a even smaller population of Singaporean? but those would rather buy new BTO at subsided rates. Then back to ur supply n demand question. Then how then government stop building BTO and force the new generation of younger Singaporean to buy from the older folks?
How would it benefit the new singaporean generation then?
yes I am not government. but to me rich folks like you are just being selfish. the poor folks will suffer in the end. but then again. TAX u guys man. 45% TAX! That will help.
haha do u see me complaining about ABSD, or higher pty tax, or 50% downpayment for new cars?
instead all the complaints i see are from those who are so scared of not being able to rent out their hdbs, afraid of cheaper BTOs will affect their own hdb resale value, and not able to see their resale hdb continue to shoot for sky high prices even though deep down they must know such a rise is unsustainable and harmful for future generations.
so who is selfish?
why would the local want to buy from foreigners? They will go BTO.
First timer or maybe second timer can buy BTO if they get balloted. Those third or more timer have to buy from resale liao.
On the Australian example, what I find interesting is even when the country is so big, so much land to build, tax rates are so high, they still have these rules in place. The implication for us is we cannot rely on building properties as a main driver of economic growth. We can build infrastructure and industries. But less emphasis on residential properties.
First timer or maybe second timer can buy BTO if they get balloted. Those third or more timer have to buy from resale liao.
On the Australian example, what I find interesting is even when the country is so big, so much land to build, tax rates are so high, they still have these rules in place. The implication for us is we cannot rely on building properties as a main driver of economic growth. We can build infrastructure and industries. But less emphasis on residential properties.
Aus is a different eco system. I was talking to them when I was there. And I complain wow the steak is so expensive!. the Aus told me its ok coz their pay is v high too. But tax also very high.
but u cannot just compare that. They have their own commodity and they make thier own cars. basically they are a commodity export country which the country sells their commodity. Australia also depends on immigrants to grow their population too. Becoz they can self sub stain the system is works for them. high taxes , high wages and export commodity.
Singapore? we basically sell services which is basically our labour cost and expertise. we dont have commodity and we import every thing we consume. Also do you see much Australian in regional services? hey are not competitive coz their over head are high.
First timer or maybe second timer can buy BTO if they get balloted. Those third or more timer have to buy from resale liao.
On the Australian example, what I find interesting is even when the country is so big, so much land to build, tax rates are so high, they still have these rules in place. The implication for us is we cannot rely on building properties as a main driver of economic growth. We can build infrastructure and industries. But less emphasis on residential properties.
The restriction for 2nd Timer tax etc plus income limits makes it unlikly most will go for it. but if 2nd Timer can get good for them coz they are the group that need the house most.
haha do u see me complaining about ABSD, or higher pty tax, or 50% downpayment for new cars?
instead all the complaints i see are from those who are so scared of not being able to rent out their hdbs, afraid of cheaper BTOs will affect their own hdb resale value, and not able to see their resale hdb continue to shoot for sky high prices even though deep down they must know such a rise is unsustainable and harmful for future generations.
so who is selfish?
I am not complain abt those too. but its selfish to say that HDB is not investment should be cheap cheap. Coz essentially if u depend on it later in life then it would matters a lot.
I dont depend on it but there are large population of folks who are.
Aus is a different eco system. I was talking to them when I was there. And I complain wow the steak is so expensive!. the Aus told me its ok coz their pay is v high too. But tax also very high.
but u cannot just compare that. They have their own commodity and they make thier own cars. basically they are a commodity export country which the country sells their commodity. Australia also depends on immigrants to grow their population too. Becoz they can self sub stain the system is works for them. high taxes , high wages and export commodity.
Singapore? we basically sell services which is basically our labour cost and expertise. we dont have commodity and we import every thing we consume. Also do you see much Australian in regional services? hey are not competitive coz their over head are high.
So in our case, we rely on internal economic activities. So we will can continue to do all that we are doing now except rely on building residential properties if we put strong curbs on ownership, which may be valid if we have such a limited supply. We can invest in all the value added service industries that we have been doing all this while. The only propulsion missing is resi property which I think will not ha e too detrimental an impact on our local economy.
So in our case, we rely on internal economic activities. So we will can continue to do all that we are doing now except rely on building residential properties if we put strong curbs on ownership, which may be valid if we have such a limited supply. We can invest in all the value added service industries that we have been doing all this while. The only propulsion missing is resi property which I think will not ha e too detrimental an impact on our local economy.
Its a balance. As much as the discussion we are having are on the merit of letting HDB resale rise and have liquidity. The other industry also need to grow that is no doubt.
Thats also go back to the discussion on population growth enough work force to grow the industry. and productivity.
Anyway time for me to go back to generating more productivity.
Amazing. How can someone reply to every single post almost instantly? :rolleyes:
I am not complain abt those too. but its selfish to say that HDB is not investment should be cheap cheap. Coz essentially if u depend on it later in life then it would matters a lot.
I dont depend on it but there are large population of folks who are.
it will be more selfish if the public housing bubbles are allowed to continue as they are.
first they scrap DBSS, now they intend to introduce a new category of cheaper BTOs. All signs point to an unsustainable HDB bubble. Going forward the govt is unlikely to allow HDB resale prices to escalate like in the past.
So if all singaporean are buying BTO what drives the 1? its just a value without much liquidity. u might have the delta of 2-1. but when u want to sell not much buyers. Then wats the use?
Want a bigger delta n liquidity over longer time frame u need new population that buys the Resale. and this new population have no access to BTO thus it helps with the 1.
Also move this time bar ahead to 2030 or 2060 where most are retirees. All want to cash out. sell to who? a even smaller population of Singaporean? but those would rather buy new BTO at subsided rates. Then back to ur supply n demand question. Then how then government stop building BTO and force the new generation of younger Singaporean to buy from the older folks?
How would it benefit the new singaporean generation tgraphshen?
In response to what "drives the 1"? New population - exactly as what you said.... but remember new population consists of young singaporean, new singapore citizens, new PR, new foreigners. Young Singaporean and new Singapore Citizens can drive the demand. Again as I said, when PR and foreigner are kept out of the Demand, prices can be managed from the Supply side.
BTO and Resale have 2 different supply/demand graphs... although correlated.
you don't get my point. they buy to speculate before the countermeasures were in place. they buy, rent out, wait for price to go up then sell
haiz.. you really hate PRs..
There are LOTS of honest, hardworking, nice PRs, who bought resale HDBs for their own stay, (not to speculate), and live among us peacefully. These PRs deserve this right.
Once you have this hatred in it, nothing is going to convince you.
and the other post from another member: "fundamental mission of HDB" etc. HDB is uniquely Singaporean. No government in the world is "obliged" to provide a housing for you. (ok Brunei gives u free, that's exception). HDB started to force ppl out of kampong land and help the urbanization. After that it helped to anchor the ppl in this island. Then later it is transformed into an asset class with an agenda that ppl will take care of it themselves. The "mission" changes. We dun want to see public housing running into slum, as in MANY other countries where public/"FREE" housing all ended up as slums, or at least areas ppl who have means dun want to live in. SG is trying to do something different. So far I think it has been good. No one is ashamed to say "I live in HDB". In HK ppl dun want to reveal where they live if they live in public housing. While you all can criticize this and that, one thing is certain: mission of HDB changes. Just an utility is definitely not one of them now.
haiz.. you really hate PRs..
There are LOTS of honest, hardworking, nice PRs, who bought resale HDBs for their own stay, (not to speculate), and live among us peacefully. These PRs deserve this right.
Once you have this hatred in it, nothing is going to convince you.
and the other post from another member: "fundamental mission of HDB" etc. HDB is uniquely Singaporean. No government in the world is "obliged" to provide a housing for you. (ok Brunei gives u free, that's exception). HDB started to force ppl out of kampong land and help the urbanization. After that it helped to anchor the ppl in this island. Then later it is transformed into an asset class with an agenda that ppl will take care of it themselves. The "mission" changes. We dun want to see public housing running into slum, as in MANY other countries where public/"FREE" housing all ended up as slums, or at least areas ppl who have means dun want to live in. SG is trying to do something different. So far I think it has been good. No one is ashamed to say "I live in HDB". In HK ppl dun want to reveal where they live if they live in public housing. While you all can criticize this and that, one thing is certain: mission of HDB changes. Just an utility is definitely not one of them now.
to toss the 'hate' word around is inappropriate. What's next? 'xenophobia'?
being nice, hardworking, honest, have nothing to do with their rights. Nice, hardworking, honest foreigners in Australia do not enjoy the same rights as locals, right? Likewise the spore govt is not obliged to confer to PRs and foreigners the same rights as locals.
Policies can change. PRs and foreigners who wish to continue to work and stay here just have to deal with it. Otherwise they can exercise their freedom of choice to return home or go elsewhere.
Regulators
15-03-13, 17:25
why would I want to hate them when they are renting my properties? hate is not the word to use. what I am suggesting is for the foreigners not to be given same rights as citizens, every govt in the right frame of mind would do that, placing citizens interest before foreigners. just to add, many foreigners I know tell me they get to enjoy the best of both worlds by not taking up citizenship here n yet enjoy subsidised housing, don't you think Singaporeanslook like fools for them to even say that?
haiz.. you really hate PRs..
There are LOTS of honest, hardworking, nice PRs, who bought resale HDBs for their own stay, (not to speculate), and live among us peacefully. These PRs deserve this right.
Once you have this hatred in it, nothing is going to convince you.
and the other post from another member: "fundamental mission of HDB" etc. HDB is uniquely Singaporean. No government in the world is "obliged" to provide a housing for you. (ok Brunei gives u free, that's exception). HDB started to force ppl out of kampong land and help the urbanization. After that it helped to anchor the ppl in this island. Then later it is transformed into an asset class with an agenda that ppl will take care of it themselves. The "mission" changes. We dun want to see public housing running into slum, as in MANY other countries where public/"FREE" housing all ended up as slums, or at least areas ppl who have means dun want to live in. SG is trying to do something different. So far I think it has been good. No one is ashamed to say "I live in HDB". In HK ppl dun want to reveal where they live if they live in public housing. While you all can criticize this and that, one thing is certain: mission of HDB changes. Just an utility is definitely not one of them now.
it's ok we can disagree.
let me just ask you this (to be sure I understand your position): would it be even better to totally remove this moniker of "PR" ? since from your perspective PR and foreigner is the same thing ?
it's ok we can disagree.
let me just ask you this (to be sure I understand your position): would it be even better to totally remove this moniker of "PR" ? since from your perspective PR and foreigner is the same thing ?
I can only say, citizen n PR is not the same
why would I want to hate them when they are renting my properties? hate is not the word to use. what I am suggesting is for the foreigners not to be given same rights as citizens, every govt in the right frame of mind would do that, placing citizens interest before foreigners. just to add, many foreigners I know tell me they get to enjoy the best of both worlds by not taking up citizenship here n yet enjoy subsidised housing, don't you think Singaporeanslook like fools for them to even say that?
Question is what is the right balance to strike in terms of allocating rights to PRs. I think govt has been too liberal in the past so much so that PRs become free riders in many areas. But they are not the main ones driving up HDB prices, and making them unaffordable. It's really Singaporeans benefitting from other Singaporeans. Those who bought BTO at crazily low prices selling to fellow citizens at crazily high prices.
why would I want to hate them when they are renting my properties? hate is not the word to use. what I am suggesting is for the foreigners not to be given same rights as citizens, every govt in the right frame of mind would do that, placing citizens interest before foreigners. just to add, many foreigners I know tell me they get to enjoy the best of both worlds by not taking up citizenship here n yet enjoy subsidised housing, don't you think Singaporeanslook like fools for them to even say that?
Answer my question then : would totally removing of "PR" suit you ?
No, hate is not the word. Discrimination , looking-down is. only SC can make profit from HDB, PR cannot. PR can only rent from you. Is that right ?
look PR is not foreigner. PR is semi foreigner. Where do you want them to stay if you do not allow them to buy the cheapest form of housing ?
If you believe there is no need for PR, then I stop my argument, case close. If you believe there is a need, then please face reality. We need somethng to attract someone to become PR. PR is just another law abiding resident semi submerged into our society. He should have the right for resale. All the talk that PR driving up HDB resale price is pure myth.
This is what I think went wrong: gov seemed to have granted PR too liberally/easily. It should be very difficult to become a PR, like in Germany. If a person is good enough to be PR, we should then grant him enough benefits such that other talented ppl view this as an reward. This is how we attract real talents. So what needs to be done now is tightening the PR channel.
Regulators
15-03-13, 20:20
I don't distinguish between pr n foreigners as they are synonymous. discrimination is also the wrong choice of words unfortunately, the correct word to use is 'differentiation'. to me hdb is the most basic need that the govt can satisfy for the people n subsidised housing however you look is a right meant for only citizens. any tom dick or harry as you would agree, can apply for pr n own hdb flat n I can say I know a number who have not done much to even deserve it. an hdb flat is a home for Singaporeans, but with prs treating Singapore as only a stopover n with no intention to take up citizenship even if we hand it to them on a platter, why should they be even allowed to own a piece of Singapore heritage (an hdb flat). my view is that they should just be allowed to buy or rent pc n rent hdb. I am not attributing the vast increase in hdb prices to foreigners, but they should not even be part of the equation that cause hdb prices to go up in the first place.
Answer my question then : would totally removing of "PR" suit you ?
No, hate is not the word. Discrimination , looking-down is. only SC can make profit from HDB, PR cannot. PR can only rent from you. Is that right ?
look PR is not foreigner. PR is semi foreigner. Where do you want them to stay if you do not allow them to buy the cheapest form of housing ?
If you believe there is no need for PR, then I stop my argument, case close. If you believe there is a need, then please face reality. We need somethng to attract someone to become PR. PR is just another law abiding resident semi submerged into our society. He should have the right for resale. All the talk that PR driving up HDB resale price is pure myth.
This is what I think went wrong: gov seemed to have granted PR too liberally/easily. It should be very difficult to become a PR, like in Germany. If a person is good enough to be PR, we should then grant him enough benefits such that other talented ppl view this as an reward. This is how we attract real talents. So what needs to be done now is tightening the PR channel.
Regulators
15-03-13, 20:44
very simple, only Singapore citizens should be allowed to own hdb flats. PRs should only be allowed to rent hdb or buy/rent PC.
Question is what is the right balance to strike in terms of allocating rights to PRs. I think govt has been too liberal in the past so much so that PRs become free riders in many areas. But they are not the main ones driving up HDB prices, and making them unaffordable. It's really Singaporeans benefitting from other Singaporeans. Those who bought BTO at crazily low prices selling to fellow citizens at crazily high prices.
Answer my question then : would totally removing of "PR" suit you ?
No, hate is not the word. Discrimination , looking-down is. only SC can make profit from HDB, PR cannot. PR can only rent from you. Is that right ?
look PR is not foreigner. PR is semi foreigner. Where do you want them to stay if you do not allow them to buy the cheapest form of housing ?
If you believe there is no need for PR, then I stop my argument, case close. If you believe there is a need, then please face reality. We need somethng to attract someone to become PR. PR is just another law abiding resident semi submerged into our society. He should have the right for resale. All the talk that PR driving up HDB resale price is pure myth.
This is what I think went wrong: gov seemed to have granted PR too liberally/easily. It should be very difficult to become a PR, like in Germany. If a person is good enough to be PR, we should then grant him enough benefits such that other talented ppl view this as an reward. This is how we attract real talents. So what needs to be done now is tightening the PR channel.
PR is foreigner, period. End of the day they are holding on to their foreign passport and their foreign citizenship.
Where do they stay is not our business. If they can afford it, they have many options. If they cannot afford it, perhaps they should think about not staying in Spore. No one, definitely not the Spore govt, owes them a living or a roof. And we certainly should be careful about letting in too many economic refugees.
Has any PR in Australia, NZ , US demanded for equality? maybe the govt will ask them to f off
So all of you are barking at the wrong tree : you should all petition to remove "PR" altogether. "Singapore does not need PR". This is not a HDB problem.
Right ?
(and @cupcake, PR can only buy from resale at market rate, which is subject to market risk, what "equal" treatment as SC ? SC got almost guaranteed profit selling to PR.)
Since this difference is so fundamental, I suppose I can stop here. Never thought ppl are so so against PR.
So all of you are barking at the wrong tree : you should all petition to remove "PR" altogether. "Singapore does not need PR". This is not a HDB problem.
Right ?
Think u got it wrong. Again.:doh:
Regulators
15-03-13, 21:47
PR simply means letting foreigners stay here for long term without having to renew their permit all the time, that doesn't mean they should enjoy the same rights as citizens to pubic housing. think you are confused mate.
So all of you are barking at the wrong tree : you should all petition to remove "PR" altogether. "Singapore does not need PR". This is not a HDB problem.
Right ?
(and @cupcake, PR can only buy from resale at market rate, which is subject to market risk, what "equal" treatment as SC ? SC got almost guaranteed profit selling to PR.)
Since this difference is so fundamental, I suppose I can stop here. Never thought ppl are so so against PR.
Think u got it wrong. Again.:doh:
Enlighten me then.
If we need PR, what should we give to PR, to differentiate from foreigner ?
PR simply means letting foreigners stay here for long term without having to renew their permit all the time, that doesn't mean they should enjoy the same rights as citizens to pubic housing. think you are confused mate.
No you are confused.
You make it sound like every one is dying to come SG to live here.
No. We are trying to attract them to come.
If a talent find it so difficult to settle down here, why would he come ?
And again, what "same rights " ? They are buying at market rate, no subsidy, enabling SC to make profits some more.
Enlighten me then.
If we need PR, what should we give to PR, to differentiate from foreigner ?
Enlighten u what? I have been in forum for a few months and have seen so many bro trying to ENLIGHTEN you and you are still not ENLIGHTEN yet. Think you need to go other country be a PR and then you come back and relate to us your enlightenment. Thank you very much!
Regulators
15-03-13, 21:54
jim rogers n modi came here to settle n did oir govt beg them to come? if Singapore is attractive, they will come, we don't need to invite them.
No you are confused.
You make it sound like every one is dying to come SG to live here.
No. We are trying to attract them to come.
If a talent find it so difficult to settle down here, why would he come ?
See , that is your problem. You honestly believe we are so good, ppl are dying to come here. Only the rich are welcome. All others not welcome.
You honestly believe we do not need "ordinary" PRs.
I completely disagree.
Tis discussion is going nowhere, so let's stop here, agree to disagree.
And @cupcake, dun be childish. In this world there are plenty of ppl having different opinion than yours.
See , that is your problem. You honestly believe we are so good, ppl are dying to come here. Only the rich are welcome. All others not welcome.
You honestly believe we do not need "ordinary" PRs.
I completely disagree.
Tis discussion is going nowhere, so let's stop here, agree to disagree.
And @cupcake, dun be childish. In this world there are plenty of ppl having different opinion than yours.
You are asking for enlightenment, nope? And looks like you are the one that refuse different opinion. You do not have to be so personal. N looks who is being more childish.
Regulators
15-03-13, 22:07
I think the problem lies with you. nobody is against pr, u r the only one having that perception. I have stated my case very clearly, they can rent but not own hdb, if they want to own public housing, then they must be Singapore citizens, as simple as that.
See , that is your problem. You honestly believe we are so good, ppl are dying to come here. Only the rich are welcome. All others not welcome.
You honestly believe we do not need "ordinary" PRs.
I completely disagree.
Tis discussion is going nowhere, so let's stop here, agree to disagree.
And @cupcake, dun be childish. In this world there are plenty of ppl having different opinion than yours.
In response to what "drives the 1"? New population - exactly as what you said.... but remember new population consists of young singaporean, new singapore citizens, new PR, new foreigners. Young Singaporean and new Singapore Citizens can drive the demand. Again as I said, when PR and foreigner are kept out of the Demand, prices can be managed from the Supply side.
BTO and Resale have 2 different supply/demand graphs... although correlated.
yes but dont forget people reject the new citizen idea. young Singaporean? we cannot even achieve a 2.1 TFR. What does that tell u? there wont be enough Singaporean. anyway new citizen or Singaporean will buy BTO. so when you consider demand its purely new housing BTO demand. What abt existing units? sell to who? come 2060 when more want to retire who wil buy the existing units from 1st owner? new citizen or young Singaporean?
so ur demand are purely new BTO dont not the existing units.
Why would they? Since they can go for new BTOs?
I think the problem lies with you. nobody is against pr, u r the only one having that perception. I have stated my case very clearly, they can rent but not own hdb, if they want to own public housing, then they must be Singapore citizens, as simple as that.
Other than so call give Singapore the feel good privilege. How would that help the existing Singaporean owners?
Feel shiok?
Precisely, so wouldnt new BTOs that are 30% cheaper serve the poorer ones better by not subjecting them to big mortgage burden at an early stage of their life? Since they are 1st-timers they have their life ahead to look forward to. I hardly think they will consider these flats as their retirement homes. After all dont everyone aspires to eventually own a private some day?
its not abt upgrading. dont u get it.. at the later part of life when retirement comes it abt down sizing. freeing up the cash. 80% lives in HDB for sure not all will be in private.
yeah BTO 30% cheaper are for first timmers. Precisely! u got my pt.
I think the problem lies with you. nobody is against pr, u r the only one having that perception. I have stated my case very clearly, they can rent but not own hdb, if they want to own public housing, then they must be Singapore citizens, as simple as that.
By stripping PR's right to buy the cheapest housing at market rate, what advantage does PR have ? Do you actually realize all that you are arguing, comes from a simple belief that " we dun need poor PRs" therefore there is no need to provide incentives ? You state your case clearly, sure, but you have to look deeper what your case really mean. You are not against PR. You simply believe we dun need ordinary PR.
as of now, the govt is giving any tom dick or harry prs with no root in singapore the right to buy hdb flats whether they deserve the reward or not. there are many hdb flats still owned by prs not living in it which is why singaporeans are complaining that they have nowhere to buy in matured estates. govt should rightfully target prs buying hdb flats to make money and not singaporeans.
how is that a reward? U buy at a market rate that is not subsidized or greatly discounted. These are models to get the PR more attached to Singapore grow roots and eventually convert to citizens.
I dont see any rewards. ITs to provide liquidity and $$ value to the HDB market for the existing citizens.
By stripping PR's right to buy the cheapest housing at market rate, what advantage does PR have ? Do you actually realize all that you are arguing, comes from a simple belief that " we dun need poor PRs" therefore there is no need to provide incentives ? You state your case clearly, sure, but you have to look deeper what your case really mean. You are not against PR. You simply believe we dun need ordinary PR.
Basically he is saying WE Singaporean must be made to feel special. be treated special. we are one n only. Many forgot their ah kong , ah mah all from china, india or malaysia etc. All are once foreigners in this land and took a generation to truly settle down here.
They think Singaporean is so great that anyone new citizen must think , breath and act like a true blue Singaporean who have been living here for ages .
But ironically they expect PR who are here must be treated poorer so that Singaporean feel special. funny thing is if PR is treated poorly here why would they even consider converting to Citizens ?
Regulators
15-03-13, 22:30
owning an hdb flat is already a reward, otherwise they have to pay through their nose for a pc. for Singaporeans, the cheapest form of housing is still hdb.
how is that a reward? U buy at a market rate that is not subsidized or greatly discounted. These are models to get the PR more attached to Singapore grow roots and eventually convert to citizens.
I dont see any rewards. ITs to provide liquidity and $$ value to the HDB market for the existing citizens.
During facial session just now, my beautician from Perak said that she regretted not getting PR when it was easier to convert :rolleyes:
Regulators
15-03-13, 22:32
so policemen should continue wearing shorts? Times have changed n we need policies to move with the changes.
Basically he is saying WE Singaporean must be made to feel special. be treated special. we are one n only. Many forgot their ah kong , ah mah all from china, india or malaysia etc. All are once foreigners in this land and took a generation to truly settle down here.
They think Singaporean is so great that anyone new citizen must think , breath and act like a true blue Singaporean who have been living here for ages .
But ironically they expect PR who are here must be treated poorer so that Singaporean feel special. funny thing is if PR is treated poorly here why would they even consider converting to Citizens ?
to toss the 'hate' word around is inappropriate. What's next? 'xenophobia'?
being nice, hardworking, honest, have nothing to do with their rights. Nice, hardworking, honest foreigners in Australia do not enjoy the same rights as locals, right? Likewise the spore govt is not obliged to confer to PRs and foreigners the same rights as locals.
Policies can change. PRs and foreigners who wish to continue to work and stay here just have to deal with it. Otherwise they can exercise their freedom of choice to return home or go elsewhere.
Yes no 1 say PR have same rights a Citizen. But as PR they have rights defiantly more than non PR.
Excuse me I beg to differ on Australia PR. They have more benifits than in Singapore. Same as us they cannot vote which is very fair. Dont say until like Singapore very generous.
"Most permanent residents are eligible to become citizens after a waiting period. When the waiting period is complete, the process of sitting the citizenship test and attending the ceremony will add an additional three to twelve months.
Permanent residents enjoy many of the rights and privileges of citizens, including access to free or subsidised legal and health services and education. "
Benefits
Benefits of permanent resident status include:
Few limitations on employment in Australia. Some job opportunities, largely state or federal governmental work, require citizenship as opposed to permanent residence.[9]
The right to apply for Australian citizenship after fulfilling some criteria.
The right to apply for a Commonwealth supported place at approved higher education institutions.[10]
For permanent residents accepted under the humanitarian program and enrolled in a Commonwealth supported place, the right to defer payment of their student contribution under the HECS-HELP scheme.[11]
The right to sponsor relatives for permanent residence, subject to fulfilling residence criteria and assurance of support requirements.
Children born inside Australia will be Australian citizens by birth.
The right to access medical and social security benefits, though there is a 2-year waiting period for some benefits.
The right to apply for Australian consular assistance overseas. (Although this right maybe subject to restrictions)[12]
The right to travel to New Zealand without applying for a New Zealand visa. (This right is granted by the New Zealand government.)
Unrestricted rights to live, work and study in New Zealand. (This right is granted by the New Zealand government.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_permanent_resident
Regulators
15-03-13, 22:35
prs get incentives from their employers based on their work performance, not coming here to tap on social n welfare benefits meant for citizens. our govt can support them by doing it through the companies they work for, not through our social net meant for citizens. our govt n country dont owe foreigners a living, remember that. we should always strive to take in the best people, not any tom dick or harry. I think you are still confused.
By stripping PR's right to buy the cheapest housing at market rate, what advantage does PR have ? Do you actually realize all that you are arguing, comes from a simple belief that " we dun need poor PRs" therefore there is no need to provide incentives ? You state your case clearly, sure, but you have to look deeper what your case really mean. You are not against PR. You simply believe we dun need ordinary PR.
[quote=amk]
(and @cupcake, PR can only buy from resale at market rate, which is subject to market risk, what "equal" treatment as SC ? SC got almost guaranteed profit selling to PR.)
quote]
This comment is definitely flawed, same as minority. That would mean the policy should be amended to allow foreigner to buy resale too, which is subject to market risk as what you said.
prs get incentives from their employers based on their work performance, not coming here to tap on social n welfare benefits meant for citizens. our govt n country dont owe foreigners a living, remember that. we should always strive to take in the best people, not any tom dick or harry. I think you are still confused.
There are not much social wealfare. u mean they pay $$ buy a HDB from a sgp citizen is social welfare? hah hah... got to be kidding right.
[quote=amk]
(and @cupcake, PR can only buy from resale at market rate, which is subject to market risk, what "equal" treatment as SC ? SC got almost guaranteed profit selling to PR.)
quote]
This comment is definitely flawed, same as minority. That would mean the policy should be amended to allow foreigner to buy resale too, which is subject to market risk as what you said.
Then what is the diff between a PR and foreigners? Foreigners can come here on holiday totally without the intention to work here. PR works here. with the intention to stay here to work.
Basically he is saying WE Singaporean must be made to feel special. be treated special. we are one n only. Many forgot their ah kong , ah mah all from china, india or malaysia etc. All are once foreigners in this land and took a generation to truly settle down here.
They think Singaporean is so great that anyone new citizen must think , breath and act like a true blue Singaporean who have been living here for ages .
But ironically they expect PR who are here must be treated poorer so that Singaporean feel special. funny thing is if PR is treated poorly here why would they even consider converting to Citizens ?
I am a Singaporean and I must be "made to feel special", simply for one strong reason: I served 2.5 years of National Service. Period.
I am a Singaporean and I must be "made to feel special", simply for one strong reason: I served 2.5 years of National Service. Period.
what a childish thought. So the PR kid have to do army to. so? the PR lesser being?
so ur ah kong and ah mah are all aliens then? coz they never server army. shall we boot them out?
what a childish thought. So the PR kid have to do army to. so? the PR lesser being?
so ur ah kong and ah mah are all aliens then? coz they never server army. shall we boot them out?
At that time, my ah kong dun need to serve NS. I didn't say PR is a lesser being, dun put words in people's mouth.
At that time, my ah kong dun need to serve NS. I didn't say PR is a lesser being, dun put words in people's mouth.
u are saying we Singaporean are special becoz we do NS. so ur ah kong didnt. so not special?
what a childish thought. So the PR kid have to do army to. so? the PR lesser being?
so ur ah kong and ah mah are all aliens then? coz they never server army. shall we boot them out?
Don't talk yourself out lahh...
U have already committed (albeit it took you quite a while) to say that foreigner should be allowed to buy resale HDB. That makes you a joker.
Don't talk yourself out lahh...
U have already committed (albeit it took you quite a while) to say that foreigner should be allowed to buy resale HDB. That makes you a joker.
I said PR. u want to take tat as foreigner so be it. but I clearly say PR buying resale.
u are saying we Singaporean are special becoz we do NS. so ur ah kong didnt. so not special?
That time no NS lah... how to do...
That time no NS lah... how to do...
So the PR all come here are past the age of enlistment do what NS? The reason we get them here is we want their economic value. to work and meet the work force need.
[QUOTE=Ilikeu]
Then what is the diff between a PR and foreigners? Foreigners can come here on holiday totally without the intention to work here. PR works here. with the intention to stay here to work.
A indon friend of mine, holding sg PR went back to indo settle down and gave birth there. I have encountered many sg PR enquiring on the process of migration to overseas. So it's not true PR work here. Is there any data to show that the no of PR leaving sg for other country?
I said PR. u want to take tat as foreigner so be it. but I clearly say PR buying resale.
You have short memory.
yes. I support that. if not its only Singaporean buy from Singaporean limited liquidity.
So the PR all come here are past the age of enlistment do what NS? The reason we get them here is we want their economic value. to work and meet the work force need.
Then give up their passport and take up the Singapore passport. But why so many hesitate to do that... simply because they want to keep their option open to retire in their own country.
[QUOTE=minority]
A indon friend of mine, holding sg PR went back to indo settle down and gave birth there. I have encountered many sg PR enquiring on the process of migration to overseas. So it's not true PR work here. Is there any data to show that the no of PR leaving sg for other country?
u mean the PR in Australia not diff? Singaporean get PR in Australia all 100% will stay in Australia?
PR is a test drive. they come they work here try to grow roots. cannot get use it they will go home or give up the PR after 10yrs or 5yrs. As they get more vested in the country and work here longer they integrate better.
But for sure there will be some that cannot and eventually go. So is that a lost to Singapore? I dont think so. While they are here they have economical value. Work, Spend and live here. Pay taxes etc.
Dont make it sound like all PRs are on holiday here. They 1st have to have employment here.
Then give up their passport and take up the Singapore passport. But why so many hesitate to do that... simply because they want to keep their option open to retire in their own country.
cannot believe so narrow. How would u know the country is right for u? its try out. like all PRs status in the world.
Singapore PR program is not the 1 and only in the world. Singapore citizenship is a single citizenship u cant even get dual passport like some other countries.!
You have short memory.
I say I support PR buying from Singaporean.
Bingo!! So PR shouldn't leech on our own resources as there are not sincerely wanting to stay?
[QUOTE=Cupcakes]
u mean the PR in Australia not diff? Singaporean get PR in Australia all 100% will stay in Australia?
PR is a test drive. they come they work here try to grow roots. cannot get use it they will go home or give up the PR after 10yrs or 5yrs. As they get more vested in the country and work here longer they integrate better.
But for sure there will be some that cannot and eventually go. So is that a lost to Singapore? I dont think so. While they are here they have economical value. Work, Spend and live here. Pay taxes etc.
Dont make it sound like all PRs are on holiday here. They 1st have to have employment here.
Regulators
15-03-13, 23:04
I know of pei du ma ma who get pr then citizenship with zero contribution except sending kid here to study. the father working in China some more. this is how easy it was to get citizenship last time (less than ten years ago). no wonder we throw our citizenship to some lousy s league footballer he just throw back at us with a bunch of empty peanut shells. as a Singaporean, it is so sia suay to know that our govt giving away our citizenship in this manner n giving pr like nobody's business, either to some cheapskate prc or to foreigners who don't even consider Singapore their home. the only right thing for the govt to do now is to stop prs from buying hdb flats.
A indon friend of mine, holding sg PR went back to indo settle down and gave birth there. I have encountered many sg PR enquiring on the process of migration to overseas. So it's not true PR work here. Is there any data to show that the no of PR leaving sg for other country?
cannot believe so narrow.
Can't believe you have short memory, can't remember what you said earlier in the day. Now you say no I didnt say foreigner.... i said PR.
Bingo!! So PR shouldn't leech on our own resources as there are not sincerely wanting to stay? [QUOTE=minority]
leech u mean free? pls advice me what is free to leech on?
I know of pei du ma ma who get pr then citizenship with zero contribution except sending kid here to study. the father working in China some more. this is how easy it was to get citizenship last time (less than ten years ago). no wonder we throw our citizenship to some lousy s league footballer he just throw back at us with a bunch of empty peanut shells. as a Singaporean, it is so sia suay to know that our govt giving away our citizenship in this manner n giving pr like nobody's business, either to some cheapskate prc or to foreigners who don't even consider Singapore their home. the only right thing for the govt to do now is to stop prs from buying hdb flats. [QUOTE=Cupcakes]
excuse me pls dont miss quote me. i and not the person saying the indo friend. dont put my name on a quote not written by me.
See , that is your problem. You honestly believe we are so good, ppl are dying to come here. Only the rich are welcome. All others not welcome.
You honestly believe we do not need "ordinary" PRs.
I completely disagree.
Tis discussion is going nowhere, so let's stop here, agree to disagree.
And @cupcake, dun be childish. In this world there are plenty of ppl having different opinion than yours.
We are very attractive, relatively speaking. In SE Asia, we are catching up with HK in terms of attractiveness despite the fact that HK has the advantage of being the gateway to china.
The criteria for entry and PR is there. those who meet the criteria will get in. Simple as that, nothing to do with whether we welcome them or not. Having said that, policies are not rigid and will change to fit changing needs. i believe we are at such a stage now, and the govt is starting to tighten.
u are saying we Singaporean are special becoz we do NS. so ur ah kong didnt. so not special?
i think you got it the other way round. in Spore the "special ones" are the foreigners and PRs. It is not hard to think this way looking at how for so many years they are praised as "talents" and lauded by the PAP govt. No other nation on this planet treats foreigners better than its own citizens, lol.
So the PR all come here are past the age of enlistment do what NS? The reason we get them here is we want their economic value. to work and meet the work force need.
I am sure you have read in papers how in recent years hawkers and masseurs can also become PRs.
Very obviously they were giving out PRs like free tissue paper, lol.
But they are starting to tighten now. About time!
I am a Singaporean and I must be "made to feel special", simply for one strong reason: I served 2.5 years of National Service. Period.
2.5 years of NS and 10 -13 years of reservist ICTs, and 3 months of RT each year for those that fail IPPT. That's a huge tax on Singaporeans that PR, foreigners and many new citizens do not have to bear.
PRs and foreigners have a big unfair advantage of no NS and reservist callups which has made them more attractive to most private employers.
The 10 -13 years of NS reservist have affected the careers of my friends and myself during the prime years of our lives. I had to take precious time off each year to serve ICTs instead of working on my business. Some ICTs were a month long. I had finally completed my reservist cycle after 13 long years.
http://leongszehian.com/?p=3242
Leveling the playing field for Singaporean workers?
Posted on March 6th, 2013
I refer to the article “Manpower Minister explains how to build a SG core in workforce (http://www.tremeritus.com/2013/03/06/manpower-minister-explains-how-to-build-a-sg-core-in-workforce/)” (TR Emeritus, Mar 5).
It states that “Mr Tan added that the second part to build a Singaporean core lies in how the work pass framework and foreign manpower framework are restructured.
He said, “As we are all familiar, we have put in place a series of changes in terms of the foreign worker levies as well as changes to the Dependency Ratio Ceilings (DRCs). So changes are being made at the Work Permit, S Pass and Employment Pass levels.”
Companies can employ 100% foreigners?
As the DRCs do not apply to employment pass holders, a company can staff 100 per cent of its workforce with employment pass holders. Also, since locals means Singaporeans and permanent residents (PRs), a company can have 60 per cent PRs, 20 per cent S-pass and 20 per cent work permit holders, or 30 per cent employment pass holders, 30 per cent PRs, 20 per cent S-pass and 20 per cent work permit holders, without any Singaporeans.
Discrimination against Singaporeans?
In this connection, the article “TAFEP admits some financial intitutions hire own FTs rather than SGs (http://www.tremeritus.com/2013/03/05/tafep-admits-some-financial-institutions-hire-own-fts-rather-than-sgs/)” (TR Emeritus, Mar 5) said “Today (4 Mar), an article in Lianhe Zaobao admits that Singaporeans are being discriminated in job market.
This is the first time a quasi government organization admitted publicly that rampant discrimination against Singaporeans exists in financial institutions.”
Ensure level playing field?
With regard to “At the S pass and Employment Pass levels particularly will have an impact on our PMEs. And the idea really, as I have said earlier, is how do we structure such that it complements our workforce and how do we ensure that there is a level playing field? This is something that I will address fully next week at the MOM Committee of Supply (COS) debate”, employment pass holders may be cheaper for employers because they can save up to 16 per cent on the employer CPF contributions.
No employer CPF?
For example, the monthly cost savings for an employment pass holder with a salary of $5,000 is as much as $800. If we count the annual bonus, the cost savings may be even higher.
No maternity leave?
Singaporean women may also be at a disadvantage because foreign work permit holders effectively cannot get pregnant and need the Ministry’s permission to get married. So, employers may not have to contend with the four months’ maternity leave.
Also, most female S-pass and employment pass holders may be single and alone when they come to work in Singapore. So, it may be less likely for them to get maternity leave. Also, those who do get pregnant may not get their typical two-year contract renewed by their employers when it expires.
No NS?
Male foreign workers do not have reservist National Service. So, employers may not have to contend with NS men employees’ leave of absence.
No turnover problems?
What is perhaps arguably, the most disadvantageous aspect for Singaporeans, may be that foreign workers effectively cannot resign during their typical 2-year contract. So, employers may not have to cintend with turnover problems.
Unless, the above policies are reviewed, how can “we ensure that there is a level playing field?”
Pay more for experience, qualifications?
In respect of “He said that the Govt has taken some steps last year in terms of restructuring the Employment Pass framework where not just entry-level pay is factored in, but also now, the foreign worker’s experience.
He said, “This is important to ensure a more level playing field for Singaporeans. And we have extended these changes to the S pass framework as well”, some foreign workers, local or foreign employment agencies, or employers, may get around this new measure by undeclaring their qualifications or experience.
In this connection, I have come across foreign graduate engineers earning over $1,000 on work permits. This is unfair competition for jobs and depression of wages for Singaporeans, which the Ministry is now presumably trying to address with the new measures.
Let me illustrate this with an example. Let’s say we have a foreign worker with ‘A’ levels, a diploma, bachelors degree, masters degree and a PhD.
The worker, employment agency or employer, may just declare only his ‘A’ levels with no experience to work under a work permit.
Or, he may just declare his bachelors degree with some experience, to work under a S-pass, or just his bachelors degree with more experience to work under a lower-pay employment pass.
Downgrade employment pass to S-pass?
The fact that last year’s employment pass statistics indicate an increase of about 25 per cent in S-pass holders due partly to downgrading from employment pass to S-pass may be an indication of the issue described above. (“Employment pass numbers down: Really (http://leongszehian.com/?p=2869)?” Jan 31)
Why didn’t we simply disallow the downgrading of employment pass to S-pass?
More time to study?
As to “Mr Tan also mentioned that MOM is currently studying how other countries are implementing their work pass frameworks.
He said, “A new area that we are looking at would be to look at the way other countries implement some of their work pass frameworks for foreign talents at the Employment Pass level category”, this problem has been going on for years. So, how many more years do we need to study the problem?
Perhaps what we need direly is effective action, instead of more talk like “So we want to look at how to make sure that Singaporeans are given fair consideration during the hiring process. The principle of not discriminating against Singaporean workers should similarly apply in downsizing exercises”
Weak guidelines?
With regard to “Mr Tan also talked about putting in place to investigate non-compliance with the Guidelines set by the Tripartite Alliance for Fair Employment Practices (TAFEP). Companies flouting the Guidelines will be penalized by having their work pass privileges curtailed.
He said, “The Tripartite Guidelines on Fair Employment Practices requires firms to make reasonable efforts to train and develop a Singaporean core. And as mentioned during the White Paper debate on population, we are already putting in place a process where we will investigate non-compliance with the Guidelines, and if proven, we will curtail work pass privileges”, do these remarks mean that as I understand it, TAFEP may not have much real power to penalise errant companies, since they are “guidelines”?
These remarks may also indicate the weakness of the legislation and processes, as curtaling work pass previleges may not be effective for employers which may not be substantially reliant on foreign workers, or if the unfair employment practice may have nothing to do with foreign workers’ hiring. Or, do these remarks hint that much of the cases may be related to foreign worker policies?
Leong Sze Hian
Leong Sze Hian is the Past President of the Society of Financial Service Professionals, an alumnus of Harvard University, Wharton Fellow, SEACeM Fellow and an author of 4 books. He is frequently quoted in the media. He has also been invited to speak more than 100 times in 25 countries on 5 continents. He has served as Honorary Consul of Jamaica, Chairman of the Institute of Administrative Management, and founding advisor to the Financial Planning Associations of Brunei and Indonesia. He has 3 Masters, 2 Bachelors degrees and 13 professional qualifications. He blogs at http://www.leongszehian.com.
I know of pei du ma ma who get pr then citizenship with zero contribution except sending kid here to study. the father working in China some more. this is how easy it was to get citizenship last time (less than ten years ago). no wonder we throw our citizenship to some lousy s league footballer he just throw back at us with a bunch of empty peanut shells. as a Singaporean, it is so sia suay to know that our govt giving away our citizenship in this manner n giving pr like nobody's business, either to some cheapskate prc or to foreigners who don't even consider Singapore their home. the only right thing for the govt to do now is to stop prs from buying hdb flats.
You should know why they give citizenship so easily to PRC.
LOL
I know of pei du ma ma who get pr then citizenship with zero contribution except sending kid here to study. the father working in China some more. this is how easy it was to get citizenship last time (less than ten years ago). no wonder we throw our citizenship to some lousy s league footballer he just throw back at us with a bunch of empty peanut shells. as a Singaporean, it is so sia suay to know that our govt giving away our citizenship in this manner n giving pr like nobody's business, either to some cheapskate prc or to foreigners who don't even consider Singapore their home..
Therefore, the right way to rectify this situation is review and tighten the PR process isn't it ? The HDB resale policy involving PR has nothing to do with the errors by the immigration department. I also thnk the PR process was indeed a bit too loose. If you were to solve a problem, solve at the place where it is the source. You also agree PR is not the cause of high HDB resale price.
Once a PR is granted ( let say deservingly), he should then be given at least some *fair treatments*. Buy HDB resale is hardly a privilege. Btw I think in HK, PR can buy public housing from open market. Same as in UK.
With the increasing no. Of PR, your proposal is not a bad one.
Therefore, the right way to rectify this situation is review and tighten the PR process isn't it ? The HDB resale policy involving PR has nothing to do with the errors by the immigration department. I also thnk the PR process was indeed a bit too loose. If you were to solve a problem, solve at the place where it is the source. You also agree PR is not the cause of high HDB resale price.
Once a PR is granted ( let say deservingly), he should then be given at least some *fair treatments*. Buy HDB resale is hardly a privilege. Btw I think in HK, PR can buy public housing from open market. Same as in UK.
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