View Full Version : Latest govt policies/measures.. Should I sell HDB now?
(I just figured out how to start a new thread, so i'm re-posting this here..)
I am new to this whole property talk and am feeling quite lost. Would appreciate honest and direct advice/opinion from everyone in here.
I currently have a fully paid 5-rm HDB in Woodlands. Exploring the option of buying a pte condo. Should I sell my HDB? Or should I hold and rent it out?
Just 1 week ago, I was certain that holding on to this HDB unit would make more $en$e. Especially after the announcement came out that Woodlands will be developed into the next regional centre (our unit is less than 10min walk to MRT).
But yesterday's news re govt measures to bring down prices of HDB is causing me some worry.
KBW says it's "Time to relook housing policies for the future" (ST, 9 March 2013) and 1 of the 4 key questions he raised (Should Housing Board flats continue to be an appreciating asset or return to being treated simply as a social need?) made me wonder again if holding on to this Woodlands HDB unit is a good idea...
Any thoughts??
My worry: more cooling measures will cause prices of condo to drop in the next few years AND price of my HDB goes back down and I make a loss (bought high and this is the first time in many years that it's seeing real profit)
Don't want to be slapped twice by making a wrong move now.
Advice, pls?
First, never fully pay your HDB.
Second, always get as much loan as you can when you are able.
Third there will always have CM after CM when the property is hot, when the property market crash, there will be lot of way to encourage you to buy e.g. DPS, remove stamp duty, PC can buy HDB......
Conclusion - The more money you have the more will be inflate away by the money printing machine. Debt = Money, therefore more debt (Good debt) you have more money flowing into your account.
DuaNehNehChioBu
10-03-13, 20:53
First, never fully pay your HDB.
Second, always get as much loan as you can when you are able.
Third there will always have CM after CM when the property is hot, when the property market crash, there will be lot of way to encourage you to buy e.g. DPS, remove stamp duty, PC can buy HDB......
Conclusion - The more money you have the more will be inflate away by the money printing machine. Debt = Money, therefore more debt (Good debt) you have more money flowing into your account.
You are really CRAZY .
The more loan = more financial burden + interests
HDB infact is better coz NO maintenance fee except that $60+ conservancy fee monthly which is very low. Property tax no need i say for HDB.
The HIGHER you Climb, the HEAVY the pain when you fall....:rolleyes:
You are right, I am crazy when you know what is money.
Have you watch "Money As Debt"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8
Allthepies
10-03-13, 21:18
2nd property you have to pay a total of 10% stamp duty, you have to judge is this amount worth it......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3fFg8XIS0k
If you have another place to stay other than this fully paid HDB flat, selling off this flat only means that you start from zero base which may not be a bad idea since there is profit to be realised. Starting from zero also means that you are like any other first timer buying your first private property and hence no ABSD involved.
The announcement by Mr Khaw on the reduced prices of future BTO flat is a tricky one. You need to make your own call and take it from here.
You are more fortunate than many others who need to buy first and than sell later.
(I just figured out how to start a new thread, so i'm re-posting this here..)
I am new to this whole property talk and am feeling quite lost. Would appreciate honest and direct advice/opinion from everyone in here.
I currently have a fully paid 5-rm HDB in Woodlands. Exploring the option of buying a pte condo. Should I sell my HDB? Or should I hold and rent it out?
Just 1 week ago, I was certain that holding on to this HDB unit would make more $en$e. Especially after the announcement came out that Woodlands will be developed into the next regional centre (our unit is less than 10min walk to MRT).
But yesterday's news re govt measures to bring down prices of HDB is causing me some worry.
KBW says it's "Time to relook housing policies for the future" (ST, 9 March 2013) and 1 of the 4 key questions he raised (Should Housing Board flats continue to be an appreciating asset or return to being treated simply as a social need?) made me wonder again if holding on to this Woodlands HDB unit is a good idea...
Any thoughts??
My worry: more cooling measures will cause prices of condo to drop in the next few years AND price of my HDB goes back down and I make a loss (bought high and this is the first time in many years that it's seeing real profit)
Don't want to be slapped twice by making a wrong move now.
Advice, pls?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=on513ZiQA8M
buttercarp
10-03-13, 21:35
2nd property you have to pay a total of 10% stamp duty, you have to judge is this amount worth it......
You are assuming wisteria is a PR?
(I just figured out how to start a new thread, so i'm re-posting this here..)
I am new to this whole property talk and am feeling quite lost. Would appreciate honest and direct advice/opinion from everyone in here.
I currently have a fully paid 5-rm HDB in Woodlands. Exploring the option of buying a pte condo. Should I sell my HDB? Or should I hold and rent it out?
Just 1 week ago, I was certain that holding on to this HDB unit would make more $en$e. Especially after the announcement came out that Woodlands will be developed into the next regional centre (our unit is less than 10min walk to MRT).
But yesterday's news re govt measures to bring down prices of HDB is causing me some worry.
KBW says it's "Time to relook housing policies for the future" (ST, 9 March 2013) and 1 of the 4 key questions he raised (Should Housing Board flats continue to be an appreciating asset or return to being treated simply as a social need?) made me wonder again if holding on to this Woodlands HDB unit is a good idea...
Any thoughts??
My worry: more cooling measures will cause prices of condo to drop in the next few years AND price of my HDB goes back down and I make a loss (bought high and this is the first time in many years that it's seeing real profit)
Don't want to be slapped twice by making a wrong move now.
Advice, pls?Assuming you can sell it for 550k.
use half the proceed to downpay a condo for own stay, register it under your name.
the other half, use your spouse name to get a MM, rent it out.
You save on your ABSD and end up with two pte properties. Congrats!
Most important is whether you need a place to stay and whether you are comfortable living and working where you are now.
If you are, it will be taking a large gamble. At least now, you can rest well. Why take the risk for your roof over head just because of paper values?
Political speech often have embedded meanings, cannot take at face value.
bakasa2002
10-03-13, 22:00
You are assuming wisteria is a PR?
sis, i think he mean to say 3% SD + 7% ABSD for 2nd ppty ... Not PR ...
If you have another place to stay other than this fully paid HDB flat, selling off this flat only means that you start from zero base which may not be a bad idea since there is profit to be realised. Starting from zero also means that you are like any other first timer buying your first private property and hence no ABSD involved.
The announcement by Mr Khaw on the reduced prices of future BTO flat is a tricky one. You need to make your own call and take it from here.
You are more fortunate than many others who need to buy first and than sell later.
2nd property you have to pay a total of 10% stamp duty, you have to judge is this amount worth it......
That's the thing.. We've factored all the costs including the BSD and ABSD. Went through our numbers many times over just to make sure that we can afford this. We can - just barely. We were even willing absorb that ABSD ('absurd' to us) because of the possibility of huge capital appreciation in our Woodlands HDB flat (due to e development of regional centre n our proximity to the MRT/mall(s)).
BUT, if KBW says govt relook the situation and they suddenly implement a policy that freezes capital appreciation (is this likely?) and lowers rental, we would then have paid the ABSD and left with a HDB that is not really 'working' for us..
Am I making sense?
I don't know enough to predict market movements so was hoping for some insight from those more experienced in this.
sis, i think he mean to say 3% SD + 7% ABSD for 2nd ppty ... Not PR ...
I'm Singaporean.
Most important is whether you need a place to stay and whether you are comfortable living and working where you are now.
If you are, it will be taking a large gamble. At least now, you can rest well. Why take the risk for your roof over head just because of paper values?
Political speech often have embedded meanings, cannot take at face value.
Def comfortable now. I ask that question too sometimes.. Just thinking of how we can leverage so that can provide better for children, perhaps?
Embedded meanings? Care to share your thoughts?
Assuming you can sell it for 550k.
use half the proceed to downpay a condo for own stay, register it under your name.
the other half, use your spouse name to get a MM, rent it out.
You save on your ABSD and end up with two pte properties. Congrats!
That sounds like an option.. But may I know what is MM?
...because of the possibility of huge capital appreciation in our Woodlands HDB flat (due to e development of regional centre n our proximity to the MRT/mall(s)).
Woodland is always woodland, downtown is always downtown. What huge capital gain?Woodland is just a heartland, far far north.
That sounds like an option.. But may I know what is MM?mm = shoebox
Woodland is always woodland, downtown is always downtown. What huge capital gain?Woodland is just a heartland, far far north.
Agreed.. They cannot be building Shenton Way or Orchard Road in the north right?
I would say you just missed the boat. The current CMs no longer favours Singaporean owning more than one property. Your options are either to upgrade (1 to 1 exchange) or pay the ABSD to own two. Either way, you are still subjected to the new financing requirement and restrictions.
Agreed.. They cannot be building Shenton Way or Orchard Road in the north right?
Wasn't thinking of Shenton Way/Orchard Rd definitely.
More like Tampines ie the 1st regional centre..? Also very quiet when I lived there through the 90s. But quite bustling and certainly more expensive there now, no?
You are right. They are punishing people who did their sums at that time considering all the rule and regulations at that time, and then at their whams and whims, rules and regulations changed to favor those who CPCB! Suddenly fair HDB BTO flats in non-mature estates should be 4 years of income! It is time they clarify also 4 years of whose income? If based on applicants' income, then their HDB BTO flats are all along significantly over-priced for so many many years! Did they just realize this fact recently or they know all along and said so only recently? Why then did they say but not do to immediately reduce the price of HDB BTO flats to 4 years of income to their advocated fair price?
Furthermore, it is time that HDB practise transparent pricing and price HDB flats on $PSF and not how many rooms! We all know very well that in 198x, 5rm HDB flats are typically 13xx sqft! Now, 5rm HDB flats can be as small as 10xx sqft! Over the past 10 years, the size has shrunk by another 100+ sqft! They should thus take this into considerations! :beats-me-man:
That's the thing.. We've factored all the costs including the BSD and ABSD. Went through our numbers many times over just to make sure that we can afford this. We can - just barely. We were even willing absorb that ABSD ('absurd' to us) because of the possibility of huge capital appreciation in our Woodlands HDB flat (due to e development of regional centre n our proximity to the MRT/mall(s)).
BUT, if KBW says govt relook the situation and they suddenly implement a policy that freezes capital appreciation (is this likely?) and lowers rental, we would then have paid the ABSD and left with a HDB that is not really 'working' for us..
Am I making sense?
I don't know enough to predict market movements so was hoping for some insight from those more experienced in this.
mm = shoebox
I see.. But what does the MM stand for? Clearly a noob..
I see.. But what does the MM stand for? Clearly a noob..mickey mouse
buttercarp
10-03-13, 22:38
sis, i think he mean to say 3% SD + 7% ABSD for 2nd ppty ... Not PR ...
Oic.... lol... ya he said stamp duties....
Omg... I am obsessed with ABSD!
SIGH...........
You are right. They are punishing people who did their sums at that time considering all the rule and regulations at that time, and then at their whams and whims, rules and regulations changed to favor those who CPCB! Suddenly fair HDB BTO flats in non-mature estates should be 4 years of income! It is time they clarify also 4 years of whose income? If based on applicants' income, then their HDB BTO flats are all along significantly over-priced for so many many years! Did they just realize this fact recently or they know all along and said so only recently? Why then did they say but not do to immediately reduce the price of HDB BTO flats to 4 years of income to their advocated fair price?
Furthermore, it is time that HDB practise transparent pricing and price HDB flats on $PSF and not how many rooms! We all know very well that in 198x, 5rm HDB flats are typically 13xx sqft! Now, 5rm HDB flats can be as small as 10xx sqft! Over the past 10 years, the size has shrunk by another 100+ sqft! They should thus take this into considerations! :beats-me-man:
phantom_opera
10-03-13, 22:48
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OT1HCQcSHW0
CMs keep fallin' on my head
And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his bed
Nothin' seems to fit
Those CMs are fallin' on my head, they keep fallin'
So I just did me some talkin' to the sun
And I said I didn't like the way he got things done
Sleepin' on the job
Those CMs are fallin' on my head, they keep fallin'
But there's one thing I know
The blues they send to meet me won't defeat me
It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me
CMs keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the CM by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me
[trumpet]
It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me
CMs keep fallin' on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never gonna stop the CM by complainin'
Because I'm free
Nothin's worryin' me
You are right. They are punishing people who did their sums at that time considering all the rule and regulations at that time, and then at their whams and whims, rules and regulations changed to favor those who CPCB! Suddenly fair HDB BTO flats in non-mature estates should be 4 years of income! It is time they clarify also 4 years of whose income? If based on applicants' income, then their HDB BTO flats are all along significantly over-priced for so many many years! Did they just realize this fact recently or they know all along and said so only recently? Why then did they say but not do to immediately reduce the price of HDB BTO flats to 4 years of income to their advocated fair price?
Furthermore, it is time that HDB practise transparent pricing and price HDB flats on $PSF and not how many rooms! We all know very well that in 198x, 5rm HDB flats are typically 13xx sqft! Now, 5rm HDB flats can be as small as 10xx sqft! Over the past 10 years, the size has shrunk by another 100+ sqft! They should thus take this into considerations! :beats-me-man:
should be base on median household income for 5 room flats. which currently is 7K. 7Kpm X 12mth X 4yr = 336K is fairly avg for the current 5room apt in out skirt.
u also left out a part of KBW message. which is also the a combination of raising today's Singaporean salary. so down the road if the median salary is higher. for the lower income going for a i.e. 3 bed room or a middle income person going for a 5 bed room.
That sounds like an option.. But may I know what is MM?
http://www.moneysmart.sg/housing-property/are-shoebox-apartments-worth-it/
Shoebox apartments are also called Mickey Mouse apartments.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xx_5PuLIzc
Money, money, money.
should be base on median household income for 5 room flats. which currently is 7K. 7Kpm X 12mth X 4yr = 336K is fairly avg for the current 5room apt in out skirt.
u also left out a part of KBW message. which is also the a combination of raising today's Singaporean salary. so down the road if the median salary is higher. for the lower income going for a i.e. 3 bed room or a middle income person going for a 5 bed room.
The problem is that some jokers drawing that salary, expect to buy queenstown, bt merah, redhill, kallang at $3xxk. If not they will carry on curse and swear.
The problem is that some jokers drawing that salary, expect to buy queenstown, bt merah, redhill, kallang at $3xxk. If not they will carry on curse and swear.
Actually wrong, they expect $2xxk or even $1xxk.
In 2006, I overheard a fellow in his 40s talking to a Singaporean in his 30s who just got a new 5-rm flat for $1xxk. The guy in the 40s said,"Can't the Govt price it cheaper? Why price it above $1xxk."
So that's the mentality. The best if Govt gives everyone a house - I think they believe the Govt owes them everything.
You are right, I am crazy when you know what is money.
Have you watch "Money As Debt"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqvKjsIxT_8
I must thank Arcahom for the video. Indeed from a macro economic perspective, debt drives the economy and increases the value chain.
At a corporate level, debt allows companies to increase their assets (also increase their lability) and produces more, sell more and makes more profit.
From a financial perspective, debt has to be managed in order maintain as a going concern. When we want to invest in a company, among other things, we look at the company's debt. We do acid test such as Current Ratio and Liquid Ratio to determine if the company is highly geared. We avoid investing in company if its Liquid Ratio is less than One because such companies are very vulnerable and may go under when situation changes
Similarly, for individual, one must also ensure than your 'Liquid Ratio' is sound. If one is over leveraged, one will also goes under if the situation changes.
The problem is that some jokers drawing that salary, expect to buy queenstown, bt merah, redhill, kallang at $3xxk. If not they will carry on curse and swear.
Thoughts have to be given to the existing owners in the area. Coz some older folks without saving depends on this to retire. Just becuse one group want it cheap end up imocling the existing owners is it fair? Also mature estate with more connectivity n mryres amenities are fair to expect it to be priced differently.
The 945k a unit in resale are not that common. But if some one willing to pay n fund the older owners by all means. As long BTO in same area is priced lower.
As long there are housing in developing estate that will be fine. Want hot locktion then pay! Right!
Go work for it. Everything. Expect fall from the sky. At 7k median household income how much tax they pay? Have to be realistic. Everyone ask for sky then only way is raise tax across the board. Even that won't get sky coz have to split it among everyone.
Actually wrong, they expect $2xxk or even $1xxk.
In 2006, I overheard a fellow in his 40s talking to a Singaporean in his 30s who just got a new 5-rm flat for $1xxk. The guy in the 40s said,"Can't the Govt price it cheaper? Why price it above $1xxk."
So that's the mentality. The best if Govt gives everyone a house - I think they believe the Govt owes them everything.
When its priced at 1xxK they will say why cannot like my ah mah time! 8k!
All forgot labour n material cost are up from then?only the world outside have progressed too since the 80s!
Get real. I think all trying their luck to pressure or blackmail government for freebiz. They forgot free don't come cheap?end it will come back in form of tax.
KBW said last night that 80,000 units leased out either one room or entire flat and too many BTO flats will affect this group. More will follow suit and garment is openly did not disagree with it. This guy who pays $945k can lease out unit at 3-4k after 5 years of MOP. Not bad.
propertyhans
11-03-13, 09:45
Hey wisteria bro, if i were you, I will not sell woodlands HDB. You will regret big time. The amount of money that is going to be pumped into woodlands is unprecedented. next time you are going to be staying at Tampines and looking back at woodlands and wondering what the hell you just did.....
Paying the ABSD for second ppty is absurd as well... I agree that HDB appreciation is now lesser chance due to govt curbs...if you die die want condo...maybe you want to consider selling your HDB and buy a condo at woodlands with one pax name at 80% loan. Lacasa, woodsvale and northoaks still cheap and no curbs and can still rent out to foreigner. Why cheap you say....HDB already $5xxk -$6xxk..3 rm condo only $8xxk - $9xxk. Can rent out to foreigner and sell to foreigner. Plus upside for capital gain after all the infrastructure is completed is amazing. Proximity to iskander infrastructure. If ppty price do drop, buy another one with wife name.
I say just take it that you missed this property boat and look at alternative investments like stocks or business for the time being. Be patient.
regency321
11-03-13, 11:20
If you can afford to hold, you should not sell. Investing in property must think long term. While property cycles goes up and down and prices fluctuates, but over time prices will go up. Unless you're planning to sell in the next few years (then you better sell now), otherwise it might be better to hold.
Regulators
11-03-13, 13:16
KBW said he will not rock the boat for existing hdb owners, so why sell? my guess is he might reduce the tenure for new flats, that is the way to go in reducing new flat prices while not upsetting existing flat owners who bought high.
Agreed.. They cannot be building Shenton Way or Orchard Road in the north right?
no but a high speed bullet train to kl...:D:D:D
phantom_opera
11-03-13, 14:57
to the TS, read LKY's daft statement 10x then chant the following 10x
"I am daft to sell my HDB"
daft [daft, dahft]
adjective, daft·er, daft·est.
1.
senseless, stupid, or foolish.
2.
insane; crazy.
To : Phantom u very funny leh!
To TS: hold lah, coz u bought so cheap, yr rental will be ard 16% assuming $2.5k per month n yr hdb bought @ $180k.
Even if yr hdb bought @ $250k yr yield will still be >10%.
Where to get this kind of yield?
Treat it as Garment huat money to u lah!
HDB rental may become more difficult - Khaw is thinking about imposing quotas for sub-leasing of entire hdb or rooms. Max approved period will be reduced from 3 to 1.5 years.
I was originally thinking along those lines too - the infrastructure in woodlands in future, the development of iskandar - that's why wanted to hold and rent out this Woodlands unit in the meantime. But....? Do you think all these points are still valid points for consideration even in the light of the new HDB policies that the govt is intent on pushing forth with?
We're definitely moving out of Woodlands. Need a change of air. N to be nearer to husband's work place. Traffic is getting worse and long journey to and fro is getting more unbearable. So definitely need to buy somewhere else. Now just need to decide if let go or Woodlands OR hold and incur ABSD.
I'm a sis, btw :D
Hey wisteria bro, if i were you, I will not sell woodlands HDB. You will regret big time. The amount of money that is going to be pumped into woodlands is unprecedented. next time you are going to be staying at Tampines and looking back at woodlands and wondering what the hell you just did.....
Paying the ABSD for second ppty is absurd as well... I agree that HDB appreciation is now lesser chance due to govt curbs...if you die die want condo...maybe you want to consider selling your HDB and buy a condo at woodlands with one pax name at 80% loan. Lacasa, woodsvale and northoaks still cheap and no curbs and can still rent out to foreigner. Why cheap you say....HDB already $5xxk -$6xxk..3 rm condo only $8xxk - $9xxk. Can rent out to foreigner and sell to foreigner. Plus upside for capital gain after all the infrastructure is completed is amazing. Proximity to iskander infrastructure. If ppty price do drop, buy another one with wife name.
I say just take it that you missed this property boat and look at alternative investments like stocks or business for the time being. Be patient.
Yes. It's a good move. HDB is for own stay. Not for investment.
Appreciating asset does not equate rental yielding vehicle.
Haha! Took me a while to figure out what/who is TS.
So don't sell??? Sell? Am I supposed to inject sarcasm or irony into that chant?? I seriously cannot tell ley...
to the TS, read LKY's daft statement 10x then chant the following 10x
"I am daft to sell my HDB"
daft [daft, dahft]
adjective, daft·er, daft·est.
1.
senseless, stupid, or foolish.
2.
insane; crazy.
To : Phantom u very funny leh!
To TS: hold lah, coz u bought so cheap, yr rental will be ard 16% assuming $2.5k per month n yr hdb bought @ $180k.
Even if yr hdb bought @ $250k yr yield will still be >10%.
Where to get this kind of yield?
Treat it as Garment huat money to u lah!
Bought @ 310k! Still makes sense to hold and rent out?
1 more vote for hold, don't sell.
Too 'cheem' for me!
I must thank Arcahom for the video. Indeed from a macro economic perspective, debt drives the economy and increases the value chain.
At a corporate level, debt allows companies to increase their assets (also increase their lability) and produces more, sell more and makes more profit.
From a financial perspective, debt has to be managed in order maintain as a going concern. When we want to invest in a company, among other things, we look at the company's debt. We do acid test such as Current Ratio and Liquid Ratio to determine if the company is highly geared. We avoid investing in company if its Liquid Ratio is less than One because such companies are very vulnerable and may go under when situation changes
Similarly, for individual, one must also ensure than your 'Liquid Ratio' is sound. If one is over leveraged, one will also goes under if the situation changes.
This, i understand. Clear and straight to the point. Thanks! :)
Not planning to sell in the next few yrs. Thinking 10yrs at least. Safe?
If you can afford to hold, you should not sell. Investing in property must think long term. While property cycles goes up and down and prices fluctuates, but over time prices will go up. Unless you're planning to sell in the next few years (then you better sell now), otherwise it might be better to hold.
This makes sense to me... N reassuring!
Another vote for don't sell.
KBW said he will not rock the boat for existing hdb owners, so why sell? my guess is he might reduce the tenure for new flats, that is the way to go in reducing new flat prices while not upsetting existing flat owners who bought high.
phantom_opera
11-03-13, 16:06
This, i understand. Clear and straight to the point. Thanks! :)
Not planning to sell in the next few yrs. Thinking 10yrs at least. Safe?
only sell if fully paid up and you are sure your next investment can return better
no but a high speed bullet train to kl...:D:D:D
I read somewhere that the high speed bullet train to KL might not be in Woodlands. Might be in the West. But if it IS in Woodlands, that's 1 more reason not to sell..?
only sell if fully paid up and you are sure your next investment can return better
HDB fully paid for.
Ok, how abt this for an idea then..
I buy the condo I'm already eyeing now. ABSD all budgeted in.
TOP end of 2014. End of 2014 I sell HDB unit to buy new launch MM in WOODLANDS (any in the pipeline for end of next yr?).. Will this be able to fetch a better rental yield than my current 5I?
Yes. It's a good move. HDB is for own stay. Not for investment.
Appreciating asset does not equate rental yielding vehicle.
So I sell, cash out on the profit now and then...? Any suggestion?
HDB rental may become more difficult - Khaw is thinking about imposing quotas for sub-leasing of entire hdb or rooms. Max approved period will be reduced from 3 to 1.5 years.
I read abt that too..do u think 'difficult' might translate to very very low rental yield such that it negates even the possibility of cap appreciation?
So I sell, cash out on the profit now and then...? Any suggestion?
then u dabble in shares ...buy yourself a nice car...go for holidays...buy latest gadgets...lend money to your best friends...relatives...then 2 years later u realise all ur money gone..then u knock your head:banghead:...on the wall :D:D:D
BOTTOMLINE...property meant to be BOUGHT NOT SOLD...whether HDB/DBSS/EC/PC...etc etc...as long as you NOT over leveraged...CANNOT GO WRONG...good luck...:D
I read abt that too..do u think 'difficult' might translate to very very low rental yield such that it negates even the possibility of cap appreciation?
then u stay in ur HDB and rent out ur condo...:cool:
Bro, ask yourself some simple questions.
If you buy a condo without selling HDB, how much ABSD do you need to pay.
How many years of HDB rental will be needed to recover that ABSD.:rolleyes:
Each and every month after that is your rental income. Low risk as your risk is limited to 4 year lockin for condo. In the mean time, you can rent HDB and pay condo installment or vice versa. Sell high, buy high. Sell low, buy low :D.
then u dabble in shares ...buy yourself a nice car...go for holidays...buy latest gadgets...lend money to your best friends...relatives...then 2 years later u realise all ur money gone..then u knock your head:banghead:...on the wall :D:D:D
LOL! Ok, note to self: don't do any of the above.
BOTTOMLINE...property meant to be BOUGHT NOT SOLD...whether HDB/DBSS/EC/PC...etc etc...as long as you NOT over leveraged...CANNOT GO WRONG...good luck...:D
Thanks! I need all the luck. And a bit more good $en$e. :p
Bro, ask yourself some simple questions.
If you buy a condo without selling HDB, how much ABSD do you need to pay.
How many years of HDB rental will be needed to recover that ABSD.:rolleyes:
Each and every month after that is your rental income. Low risk as your risk is limited to 4 year lockin for condo. In the mean time, you can rent HDB and pay condo installment or vice versa. Sell high, buy high. Sell low, buy low :D.
Good point.. 3 years to 'redeem' ABSD. Noted.
Btw, I am a SIS :)
Good point.. 3 years to 'redeem' ABSD. Noted.
Btw, I am a SIS :)
oops...sorry:D:D:D...but no prob plenty of property-sis here...:D
rattydrama
11-03-13, 21:25
with all the restrictions and the impending new rules, i think to have a good cap appreciation is rather difficult.
I suggest you keep cash now and wait for the next opportunity. you may just hoot 2 units when the time comes... or if you are daring, venture overseas and go back to SG market again when you make your profit. But dont throw all your bullets. still keep some for raining days.
it a bad idea to fully paid your hdb. I made that mistakes before and have to sell away. well no regrets cos i made the right choice to sell and had seen good cap appreciation for my next buys.
good luck to you!
I read somewhere that the high speed bullet train to KL might not be in Woodlands. Might be in the West. But if it IS in Woodlands, that's 1 more reason not to sell..?
If it's west than maybe at Tuas check point la..:D !
Cyberknight
12-03-13, 00:04
with all the restrictions and the impending new rules, i think to have a good cap appreciation is rather difficult.
I suggest you keep cash now and wait for the next opportunity. you may just hoot 2 units when the time comes... or if you are daring, venture overseas and go back to SG market again when you make your profit. But dont throw all your bullets. still keep some for raining days.
it a bad idea to fully paid your hdb. I made that mistakes before and have to sell away. well no regrets cos i made the right choice to sell and had seen good cap appreciation for my next buys.
good luck to you!
now only fully paid up hdb if u need to borrow 80% or more money as in 1st bank loan.
Amber Woods
12-03-13, 10:07
HDB fully paid for.
Ok, how abt this for an idea then..
I buy the condo I'm already eyeing now. ABSD all budgeted in.
TOP end of 2014. End of 2014 I sell HDB unit to buy new launch MM in WOODLANDS (any in the pipeline for end of next yr?).. Will this be able to fetch a better rental yield than my current 5I?
A friend of mine asked me a similar question and for him, he does not need to stay in his current HDB flat. He is happy to sell anytime now.
Our discussion centred around the bigger issue what if BTO price really down by 30% and assuming that resale prices would follow by say 20%. Here are the various options.
1. Buy PC at $1m now and sell HDB flat for $500k now. Nett cash outlay is $500K
2. Buy PC now at $1m and sell HDB flat later at $400K. Cash outlay is $600K. ( Rental income from HDB flat for 2 years say $50K). Nett cash outlay is $550K.
3. Buy PC later at $800K and sell HDB flat now at $500K. Nett cash outlay is $300K.
4 Buy PC later at $800K and sell HDB flat later at $400K with rental income at $50K. Nett cash outlay is $$350K.
If we assume that the government succeed in reducing prices by 30% (usually the government will succeed), then it makes sense to opt for Option 3 or 4.
A friend of mine asked me a similar question and for him, he does not need to stay in his current HDB flat. He is happy to sell anytime now.
Our discussion centred around the bigger issue what if BTO price really down by 30% and assuming that resale prices would follow by say 20%. Here are the various options.
1. Buy PC at $1m now and sell HDB flat for $500k now. Nett cash outlay is $500K
2. Buy PC now at $1m and sell HDB flat later at $400K. Cash outlay is $600K. ( Rental income from HDB flat for 2 years say $50K). Nett cash outlay is $550K.
3. Buy PC later at $800K and sell HDB flat now at $500K. Nett cash outlay is $300K.
4 Buy PC later at $800K and sell HDB flat later at $400K with rental income at $50K. Nett cash outlay is $$350K.
If we assume that the government succeed in reducing prices by 30% (usually the government will succeed), then it makes sense to opt for Option 3 or 4.
in options 3 & 4, you are assuming prices of PC are going to fall by that quantum. if he has fully paid up his HDB, why don't just take a loan to buy the PC directly? sell HDB liao, means no turning back.
KenoBiWan has not dictated on what conditions new HDB BTO prices are going to fall by 30%. It could be shorter lease, it could be restrictions to resale transactions, etc etc. no use postulating scenarios that may not be useful comparisons.
Sell HDB means can never get back.
KBW declared that existing home owners would not be affected.
So this comment will spur people to commit earlier.. Before more measures kick in..
KBW declared that existing home owners would not be affected.
So this comment will spur people to commit earlier.. Before more measures kick in..
then all these people will suffer in future
KBW declared that existing home owners would not be affected.
So this comment will spur people to commit earlier.. Before more measures kick in..
Affected by which rule? So many rules until quite confusing.
then all these people will suffer in future
Unlikely.
The amount of cash in the system is too scary..
Did you miss the boat?
Unlikely.
The amount of cash in the system is too scary..
Did you miss the boat?
The huge funds in the system is in the hands of various institutions and not individual who benefit only through low interest rate.
These funds are not buying into residential developments in Singapore but possibly other commercial assets. Gone were the days when Morgan Stanley and other insititutions were buying into en bloc lands together with local developers or even the entire residential developments. In fact many of them are cutting their losses now or exiting the market althoughter.
Local listed OUE was reported yesterday to have purchased the tallest building in Califorina for more than US$360m after 'failing' to buy F&N. Why are these local institutions buying assets outside Singapore?
(I just figured out how to start a new thread, so i'm re-posting this here..)
I am new to this whole property talk and am feeling quite lost. Would appreciate honest and direct advice/opinion from everyone in here.
I currently have a fully paid 5-rm HDB in Woodlands. Exploring the option of buying a pte condo. Should I sell my HDB? Or should I hold and rent it out?
Just 1 week ago, I was certain that holding on to this HDB unit would make more $en$e. Especially after the announcement came out that Woodlands will be developed into the next regional centre (our unit is less than 10min walk to MRT).
But yesterday's news re govt measures to bring down prices of HDB is causing me some worry.
KBW says it's "Time to relook housing policies for the future" (ST, 9 March 2013) and 1 of the 4 key questions he raised (Should Housing Board flats continue to be an appreciating asset or return to being treated simply as a social need?) made me wonder again if holding on to this Woodlands HDB unit is a good idea...
Any thoughts??
My worry: more cooling measures will cause prices of condo to drop in the next few years AND price of my HDB goes back down and I make a loss (bought high and this is the first time in many years that it's seeing real profit)
Don't want to be slapped twice by making a wrong move now.
Advice, pls?
Dear wisteria,
It is not wise to sell away your HDB. I can tell U will regret later.I bought my old HDB 4bdrm in early 2010 to be near to my parent.I need to take care of them. Later ,I sold my condo in Mid 2011 at a good price (now 5% higher I guess). Immediately, I bought a 1 bedrm in D11 within 1km to Nanyang Pri school & 300m to Botantic garden MRT. There is no different living in Condo Vs HDB for my case. Living in Condo cost is high.
Condo property tax = est $4800/yr. tax will Progressive increase.
HDB propert tax = $160/yr
Condo maintenace fee = est $480/mth
HDB Town council fee = $61/mth
Condo Master bedrm = small. Cannot close door if put king size bed.
HDB master bdrm = look bigger than Condo. Still can hv king size bed
Condo swimming pool = Seldom use. Maybe twice mth.
Swimming pool at HDB = $1 per entry whole day.
Condo gym = Seldom use. Sometimes crowded due to small size.
Town council gym = $2.5 per entry whole day.
If U decide to stay with parent & rent out current HDB/condo
=====================================
Condo = Moderate or Poor rental yield if U rent out.
HDB = good rental yield if U decide rent out.
Buy condo.another higher mortgage loan to serve.More financial burden
HDB. maybe fully paid. Less burden. $ channel to kids education.
So if U are not cash rich. Forget & live in HDB happily. Maybe wait till 2014/15 for a better price if U really want to upgrade.
rdgs,
Vic
Absolutely unless you must stay in private condo for whatever reason.
Dear wisteria,
It is not wise to sell away your HDB. I can tell U will regret later.I bought my old HDB 4bdrm in early 2010 to be near to my parent.I need to take care of them. Later ,I sold my condo in Mid 2011 at a good price (now 5% higher I guess). Immediately, I bought a 1 bedrm in D11 within 1km to Nanyang Pri school & 300m to Botantic garden MRT. There is no different living in Condo Vs HDB for my case. Living in Condo cost is high.
Condo property tax = est $4800/yr. tax will Progressive increase.
HDB propert tax = $160/yr
Condo maintenace fee = est $480/mth
HDB Town council fee = $61/mth
Condo Master bedrm = small. Cannot close door if put king size bed.
HDB master bdrm = look bigger than Condo. Still can hv king size bed
Condo swimming pool = Seldom use. Maybe twice mth.
Swimming pool at HDB = $1 per entry whole day.
Condo gym = Seldom use. Sometimes crowded due to small size.
Town council gym = $2.5 per entry whole day.
If U decide to stay with parent & rent out current HDB/condo
=====================================
Condo = Moderate or Poor rental yield if U rent out.
HDB = good rental yield if U decide rent out.
Buy condo.another higher mortgage loan to serve.More financial burden
HDB. maybe fully paid. Less burden. $ channel to kids education.
So if U are not cash rich. Forget & live in HDB happily. Maybe wait till 2014/15 for a better price if U really want to upgrade.
rdgs,
Vic
propertyhans
12-03-13, 11:58
I read somewhere that the high speed bullet train to KL might not be in Woodlands. Might be in the West. But if it IS in Woodlands, that's 1 more reason not to sell..?
Hi Sis,
It will not be in woodlands for sure.
Anyway, it does not matter. Woodlands will be very busy with the future up and coming projects. You can try market your HDB now. I am sure you will be overwhelmed by offers. Becaaaaaaaussse.........HDB can rent to malaysians without restrictions! hehe.
Bought @ 310k! Still makes sense to hold and rent out?
1 more vote for hold, don't sell.
Based on yr purchase price above n assuming rental @$2.5k per mth, yr yield still good ard 9%.
To calculate yr rental yield just take 12mths x @$2.5k divided by purchase price n convert to percentage.
Now Govt allowed u to hold then u should Hold.
Since existing owners are not likely to be affected, what if the flat that you own now under the "old" conditions becomes an endangered species?
Suppose the conditions of the "new" 30% cheaper HDB are for example:
Smaller area, shorter lease, MOP 10 years, not allowed to rent out,
only can sell back to HDB....etc etc.
Your current flat under the "old" scheme could even appreciate since they no longer sell new BTOs with these conditions.
So....those people hoping for "cheap" HDBs, you better brace yourselves. What you get could come true, but the Terms and Conditions might not be what you are expecting....
Well....this is just speculation.
Our afternoon break to TCSS...:rolleyes:
imagine if the starting lease is as long as those old toa payoh flats with 60years left to go.
So the Govt makes both parties "happy" in theory.
The existing flat owners still can expect their units to appreciate. The "new" buyers get theirs at 30% cheaper.
But Singaporeans being what they are, the new buyers will still not be happy because their units will not have good prospect of capital appreciation.
haha... wonder which clever Govt scholar came up with this scheme.
:rolleyes:
So the Govt makes both parties "happy" in theory.
The existing flat owners still can expect their units to appreciate. The "new" buyers get theirs at 30% cheaper.
But Singaporeans being what they are, the new buyers will still not be happy because their units will not have good prospect of capital appreciation.
haha... wonder which clever Govt scholar came up with this scheme.
:rolleyes:
actually it is quite smart la, chiaberry sister. I think they will allow them to encash the equity later on like normal HDB now.
So the Govt makes both parties "happy" in theory.
The existing flat owners still can expect their units to appreciate. The "new" buyers get theirs at 30% cheaper.
But Singaporeans being what they are, the new buyers will still not be happy because their units will not have good prospect of capital appreciation.
haha... wonder which clever Govt scholar came up with this scheme.
:rolleyes:
they want cheap and they want fat profits. they simply want to have the cake and eat it. instead of teaching the people to fish, they decided to bbq it for them and serve it on the platter as well.
affordability has 2 parts of the equation. price and income. i think it's better to focus on income.
actually it is quite smart la, chiaberry sister. I think they will allow them to encash the equity later on like normal HDB now.
shorter lease properties have their set of issues. just a quick one off my mind, are banks willing to provide loans to potential buyers of such properties? if this is a hurdle, then valuation and price takes a hit.
phantom_opera
12-03-13, 17:03
shorter lease properties have their set of issues. just a quick one off my mind, are banks willing to provide loans to potential buyers of such properties? if this is a hurdle, then valuation and price takes a hit.
most 1st timers get loan from HDB, in China lease is 70y
most 1st timers get loan from HDB, in China lease is 70y
sorry i wasn't clear in my earlier statement. let me rephrase, if the owners of such properties with short leases are going to sell, potential buyers may find difficulty in obtaining bank loans
sorry i wasn't clear in my earlier statement. let me rephrase, if the owners of such properties with short leases are going to sell, potential buyers may find difficulty in obtaining bank loans
Aren't they supposed to be sold back to HDB in the new regime?
:rolleyes:
ha....you want cheap HDB....but Govt won't let you have your cake and eat it. This cheap HDB is not meant to be an appreciating asset lah.
Give me the "old" HDB with potential capital appreciation any time. No matter if the COV is high because hopefully I can resell it for high COV too. :tsk-tsk: The youngsters will just have to learn how to save up and give up their luxuries for the purpose of buying the roof over their heads just like those of us older generation who don't have rich or benevolent parents/relative. Don't cry mother cry father to the Govt because the Govt just might give it to you and ram it down your throat so it will choke you.
sorry i wasn't clear in my earlier statement. let me rephrase, if the owners of such properties with short leases are going to sell, potential buyers may find difficulty in obtaining bank loans
all loans can be granted by HDB given that banks may not lend against it.
And charge them 2.6% interest rate vs bank's 1.1% like now? :banghead:
all loans can be granted by HDB given that banks may not lend against it.
And charge them 2.6% interest rate vs bank's 1.1% like now? :banghead:
Give and take lor. Private was once 3.99% when they were charging 2.6%.
Since many youngsters cry father cry mother that HDB flats even BTO expensive, then have to make it cheaper lor. But cheaper must make do some other place right? Can't be that sell them cheap cheap and 5 years later they can sell very expensive? Where got such deal in this world hah? :doh:
If this is the case, best is govt sell them cheap cheap, 4x their annual salary, but if they sell must sell back to govt at market price, and cannot rent out, not even a room because sell them cheap cheap means not for them to rent out to make money right?
Then HDB flats will become a non-appreciating asset in future, if that is what they want, think govt is fine with that isn't it? Anyway the govt makes most money from selling land to private / commercial /..., not HDB.... :beats-me-man:
Now, above give us a very good idea: Govt should sell HDB flat to every family based on 4x their family annual income! Now HDB flat becomes personalized to the best affordability of every family, become always affordable (i.e. if your family income is $100k a year, you pay $400k. Another family earns $50k a year, they pay $200k for the same size HDB flat!). Isn't this good for the youngsters? :tongue3:
Aren't they supposed to be sold back to HDB in the new regime?
:rolleyes:
ha....you want cheap HDB....but Govt won't let you have your cake and eat it. This cheap HDB is not meant to be an appreciating asset lah.
Give me the "old" HDB with potential capital appreciation any time. No matter if the COV is high because hopefully I can resell it for high COV too. :tsk-tsk: The youngsters will just have to learn how to save up and give up their luxuries for the purpose of buying the roof over their heads just like those of us older generation who don't have rich or benevolent parents/relative. Don't cry mother cry father to the Govt because the Govt just might give it to you and ram it down your throat so it will choke you.
That's called raiding the reserves. Very soon I also want to ask to fly on SQ first class but pay economy class fares. Can or not har?
That's called raiding the reserves. Very soon I also want to ask to fly on SQ first class but pay economy class fares. Can or not har?
People don't care. Want government sell them cheap cheap but when sell back to government they want market price.
Flying is a necessity or not? You need a good reason hor! :p
Because these CPCB people can give very good reason: say having a roof over their head is a necessity otherwise how to have family, give birth, and achieve govt's wishing of having more locally born citizens? :D
That's called raiding the reserves. Very soon I also want to ask to fly on SQ first class but pay economy class fares. Can or not har?
If HDB flats must be sold back to HDB only, and cannot be rented out, not even a room, what do you think the "market price" of the HDB flats will be when they are aging? :p
People don't care. Want government sell them cheap cheap but when sell back to government they want market price.
Flying is a necessity or not? You need a good reason hor! :p
Because these CPCB people can give very good reason: say having a roof over their head is a necessity otherwise how to have family, give birth, and achieve govt's wishing of having more locally born citizens? :D
Necsssity. I will make babies in the first class suite with that bed on board the a380. Haha.
Oh I see, first class suite than can produce first class babies! Ok approved, only for singapore-born citizens only........... :D
Necsssity. I will make babies in the first class suite with that bed on board the a380. Haha.
If HDB flats must be sold back to HDB only, and cannot be rented out, not even a room, what do you think the "market price" of the HDB flats will be when they are aging? :p
Let me rephrase :ashamed1:
They want the current market price. But want to buy at their grand mother time price.
Oh gosh! :doh:
In this case, the govt should just make sure they pay higher and higher price the more they complain! :p
Let me rephrase :ashamed1:
They want the current market price. But want to buy at their grand mother time price.
KBW said last night that 80,000 units leased out either one room or entire flat and too many BTO flats will affect this group. More will follow suit and garment is openly did not disagree with it. This guy who pays $945k can lease out unit at 3-4k after 5 years of MOP. Not bad.
KBW already endorsed HDB rental by this statement. those who are worried that HDB rental to be disallowed can sleep well. however, rental demand already curbed with the recent 1.5yr control over non malaysians. i have to really respect KBW for being quite wholistic in implementation. can't be perfect, but decently good.
I was originally thinking along those lines too - the infrastructure in woodlands in future, the development of iskandar - that's why wanted to hold and rent out this Woodlands unit in the meantime. But....? Do you think all these points are still valid points for consideration even in the light of the new HDB policies that the govt is intent on pushing forth with?
We're definitely moving out of Woodlands. Need a change of air. N to be nearer to husband's work place. Traffic is getting worse and long journey to and fro is getting more unbearable. So definitely need to buy somewhere else. Now just need to decide if let go or Woodlands OR hold and incur ABSD.
I'm a sis, btw :D
KBW already give green light to rent HDB to malaysians leow. malaysians like to stay in woodlands. plus the new devps in woodlands. dun sell.
TOP end of 2014. End of 2014 I sell HDB unit to buy new launch MM in WOODLANDS (any in the pipeline for end of next yr?).. Will this be able to fetch a better rental yield than my current 5I?
dun assume HDB prices will not drop between now and end 2014
So....those people hoping for "cheap" HDBs, you better brace yourselves. What you get could come true, but the Terms and Conditions might not be what you are expecting....
Our afternoon break to TCSS...:rolleyes:
this is becoming so true for so many things.. like COE
Govt cannot let the HDB resale prices crash too heavily. Even letting HDB become a non-appreciating asset will hit citizens hard. Remember we have a demographic time bomb with ageing citizens. If they are not able to monetize their HDBs in their senior years, they could be in for a hard time as inflation will have eroded their savings and investments for their retirement. This also applies to the younger generation who are now spending on non-appreciating items like the latest electronic gadgets, holidays abroad, cars, etc rather than investing. It is well proven that the earlier they invest at a young age, the more will be their retirement fund later on compared to starting investment later on in life. But our young generation don't seem to see it that way. They would rather enjoy now and suffer later (although they won't believe us about the suffering later as they think they have plenty of time to earn $$$ later :beats-me-man: ).
Govt cannot let the HDB resale prices crash too heavily. Even letting HDB become a non-appreciating asset will hit citizens hard. Remember we have a demographic time bomb with ageing citizens.
I think you're becoming senile. Govt cannot control housing prices in the short to medium term.
Just as they cannot prevent HDB resale from rising due to shortage of BTO, they cannot prevent it from crashing once the massive 200,000 units are built in 3-4 years.
I think you're becoming senile. Govt cannot control housing prices in the short to medium term.
Just as they cannot prevent HDB resale from rising due to shortage of BTO, they cannot prevent it from crashing once the massive 200,000 units are built in 3-4 years.
Relax the rules and let more people buy, just like flicking a switch...
An ageing population and the property market in Singapore
From
Lee Chin Wai
-
14 March
I refer to the report “Link between ageing population and taxes debated” (March 5).
It was suggested by an economist that the impact of the old-age support ratio on working adults in Singapore is different in countries like the United States, which have a “pay-as-you-go” social security system where current receipts are used to pay for current benefits for retirees.
However, much of our Central Provident Fund savings go towards buying a house, with the balance unlikely to be sufficient to fully meet retirement needs. If there is a need to sell, downgrade or rent out the house to fund retirement, the likely buyers/lessees would be those who are young and working. Hence, the old-age support ratio is still relevant in Singapore’s case.
For those who need to sell or downgrade their house to fund their retirement, the ratio to watch would be those between the ages of 25 and 49 (potential buyers/upgraders) versus those above 60 (potential sellers/downgraders). As the population ages, this ratio would fall — meaning there are fewer buyers for every seller, bringing down property values.
Even the middle-aged population which is not planning to buy or sell their houses in the next decade may be affected. If property values decline faster than loan repayments, loan-to-value ratios would rise and might trigger margin calls from the banks, potentially trapping home owners with “negative equity”.
Meanwhile, property taxes have become more progressive. Private house owners will pay more tax and receive less benefits compared to those staying in public housing.
This would not be a problem when the owners are still working and/or receiving rental income. But when this group starts to retire, there will be a growing dilemma as to whether they should be taxed more.
The housing challenges in the short-term and long-term are very different. To navigate these challenges successfully, we need to recognise that we are all in the same boat together and cannot row in different directions.
I think you're becoming senile. Govt cannot control housing prices in the short to medium term.
Just as they cannot prevent HDB resale from rising due to shortage of BTO, they cannot prevent it from crashing once the massive 200,000 units are built in 3-4 years.
If the Govt cooling measures are not for controlling housing prices, then what are they for???
Well sorry for being ignorant and not on the same intellectual level as you. :beats-me-man:
If the Govt cooling measures are not for controlling housing prices, then what are they for???
Well sorry for being ignorant and not on the same intellectual level as you. :beats-me-man:
The cooling measures don't work well. If the govt can't cool the market, what makes you think they can prevent prices from falling if the market goes into reserve due to an external factor, for example, new Persian Gulf war, or major Earthquake in Tangshan, near Beijing and Tianjin?
Having said that, I think the govt is really trying to make prices to fall before 2014, because if prices gets too high near the 2016 and an external event happens, it will be disastrous to PAP votes.
The 2016 election is the reason why I think the local property market has peaked, at least for the next 2 years.
History has shown that governments all over find it hard to contain asset bubble because of social and political reasons and not because the cooling measures are not effective. Sometime or most of the time, the bubble bursts when some other factors come along. No one will blame the government and the economy rebuilds itself.
phantom_opera
15-03-13, 11:48
what is the problem? by 2022, Singapore KL high speed rail up, cannot afford to retire go to KL lah ... by 2032, SG Ipoh HSR up, cannot retire in KL go to Cameron Highlands lah
:p
what is the problem? by 2022, Singapore KL high speed rail up, cannot afford to retire go to KL lah ... by 2032, SG Ipoh HSR up, cannot retire in KL go to Cameron Highlands lah
:p
Seriously, by 2030, no one knows what will happen. By 2030, maybe China revert back to communism, WWIII breaks out. Malaysia side with China, Singapore and Indonesia side with USA.
Too far to think that long.
:D
phantom_opera
15-03-13, 12:01
Seriously, by 2030, no one knows what will happen. By 2030, maybe China revert back to communism, WWIII breaks out. Malaysia side with China, Singapore and Indonesia side with USA.
Too far to think that long.
:D
my point is Singapore everything is meritocratic, the same apply to retirees .. Kenobi-wan already said cannot afford hospital here go JB lah :rolleyes:
my point is Singapore everything is meritocratic, the same apply to retirees .. Kenobi-wan already said cannot afford hospital here go JB lah :rolleyes:
Are you sure? How about those who inherit their positions?
:D
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