View Full Version : Landed Property - Going Forward (2013)
thomaspaine
14-02-13, 12:50
Hi ...
Long time follower of this forum. Genuinely enjoy the information from all of you.
How do gurus here see landed prices short/medium term after CM7 ?
Thank you
Allthepies
14-02-13, 12:54
Hi ...
Long time follower of this forum. Genuinely enjoy the information from all of you.
How do gurus here see landed prices short/medium term after CM7 ?
Thank you
If most landed owners are buying for own consumptions then shouldn't affect too much. :2cents:
thomaspaine
14-02-13, 13:38
If most landed owners are buying for own consumptions then shouldn't affect too much. :2cents:
Thanks ....
prior to CM7 ...landed was really changing hands at new highs (almost everywhere) ...which is worrying ....
I guess CM7 is a good doze of medicine ....
Landed was the last to jump in price during the last bull run. Condo sellers need to have money before buying landed.
It will also be the last to fall when the price corrects. When condo prices drops... then faster sell landed.
If condo prices dun drop... how will landed drop since there is so much new condo supply from government but virtually no more new landed (Especially FH ones)
singapore got NO gold mine only landed property...if u think price of gold will go up then so will landed...:banghead::banghead::banghead:
Hi ...
Long time follower of this forum. Genuinely enjoy the information from all of you.
How do gurus here see landed prices short/medium term after CM7 ?
Thank you
In terms of supply of freehold landed - very little fresh supply coming on-stream in the forseeable near or long term.
In terms of demand - no. of singapore citizens expected to increase from 3.2m to 3.6/3.6m by 2030.
With govt internding to increase intake of new citizens by 25K pa from now until 2030, what do you think will be the first priority of these new citizens once they make SG their home?
No need to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out
Former Turf Club will have new landed development but not cheap.
Landed was the last to jump in price during the last bull run. Condo sellers need to have money before buying landed.
It will also be the last to fall when the price corrects. When condo prices drops... then faster sell landed.
If condo prices dun drop... how will landed drop since there is so much new condo supply from government but virtually no more new landed (Especially FH ones)
I dont see any evidence of that in the URA price index.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2013/pr13-06a7.pdf
Former Turf Club will have new landed development but not cheap.
99 yr leasehold at best
thomaspaine
14-02-13, 21:04
In terms of supply of freehold landed - very little fresh supply coming on-stream in the forseeable near or long term.
In terms of demand - no. of singapore citizens expected to increase from 3.2m to 3.6/3.6m by 2030.
With govt internding to increase intake of new citizens by 25K pa from now until 2030, what do you think will be the first priority of these new citizens once they make SG their home?
No need to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out
Thanks......
Your point did cross my mind ...but you put it succintly
In terms of supply of freehold landed - very little fresh supply coming on-stream in the forseeable near or long term.
In terms of demand - no. of singapore citizens expected to increase from 3.2m to 3.6/3.6m by 2030.
With govt internding to increase intake of new citizens by 25K pa from now until 2030, what do you think will be the first priority of these new citizens once they make SG their home?
No need to be a rocket scientist to figure this one out
Does it mean that landed property has risen to a level that it has gotten out of reach for local born and bred Singapore and we need to depends on rich foreign immigrants to buy up our landed property?
Does it mean that landed property has risen to a level that it has gotten out of reach for local born and bred Singapore and we need to depends on rich foreign immigrants to buy up our landed property?
You still don't get it. Immigration policy is key to the govt which is why they have to gone to such great lengths to discuss and pass the paper. Owning a HDB/landed is a privilege accorded only to citizens. If they want to attract more new citizens onto our shore, they must provide an incentive for them to take up citizenship. Housing would be the first priority to any newcomer in a foreign country.
Politically, I don't think they will want to mess with the current state of affairs in regard to landed as it only forms a very small percentage of the entire housing market. In fact, high networth immigrants bringing their capital, expertise and even their entire family operations onto our shores would probably be their preferred candidates. Why would the govt want to discourage them if they want to spend more money here? Besides, there are already absd/ssd restrictions which also applies to landed so why would they specifically target such a small segment?
Thanks......
Your point did cross my mind ...but you put it succintly
You are welcome. The next step of course would be to map out your strategy before the influx of immigrants start.
Does it mean that landed property has risen to a level that it has gotten out of reach for local born and bred Singapore and we need to depends on rich foreign immigrants to buy up our landed property?
Singaporeans are rich too as someone in my neighbourhood paid cash for his house. Another detached was purchased by someone saying in the opposite detached. In my friend's neighbourhood, her neighbour bought the next door detached and all these buyers are Singaporeans and not new citizens.
Singaporeans are rich too as someone in my neighbourhood paid cash for his house. Another detached was purchased by someone saying in the opposite detached. In my friend's neighbourhood, her neighbour bought the next door detached and all these buyers are Singaporeans and not new citizens.
Yes, your neighbours are very savvy as they have seen the writing on the wall which is now cast in stone with the passing of the white paper.
You still don't get it. Immigration policy is key to the govt which is why they have to gone to such great lengths to discuss and pass the paper. Owning a HDB/landed is a privilege accorded only to citizens. If they want to attract more new citizens onto our shore, they must provide an incentive for them to take up citizenship. Housing would be the first priority to any newcomer in a foreign country.
Politically, I don't think they will want to mess with the current state of affairs in regard to landed as it only forms a very small percentage of the entire housing market. In fact, high networth immigrants bringing their capital, expertise and even their entire family operations onto our shores would probably be their preferred candidates. Why would the govt want to discourage them if they want to spend more money here? Besides, there are already absd/ssd restrictions which also applies to landed so why would they specifically target such a small segment?
again you are speculating the economic contribution of the new citizen coming to Singapore. Which new citizen do you have in mind that has brought about huge economic contribution to Singapore?
landed owner segment is indeed small, but I wont dare say the land area they occupied is not significant.
Not sure where you are coming from but maybe u can share more why are you so concern?? If they can afford then let them buy, nothing wrong with that...don't forget that this segment is not for mass market. What makes u think that they will go thru the trouble to revise policy to control such a small segment?
again you are speculating the economic contribution of the new citizen coming to Singapore. Which new citizen do you have in mind that has brought about huge economic contribution to Singapore?
landed owner segment is indeed small, but I wont dare say the land area they occupied is not significant.
Don't jump to conclusion, it is more of a preference I believe. :o
Ppl are willing to pay EC over 2mil, but anytime, u can get landed much bigger in size and at lower cost. So what do u think? Reserve landed and wait for this ppl to buy??
Does it mean that landed property has risen to a level that it has gotten out of reach for local born and bred Singapore and we need to depends on rich foreign immigrants to buy up our landed property?
again you are speculating the economic contribution of the new citizen coming to Singapore. Which new citizen do you have in mind that has brought about huge economic contribution to Singapore?
landed owner segment is indeed small, but I wont dare say the land area they occupied is not significant.
Do you have actual statistics on the no. of landed as well as actual land size owned by these new SC? If not, it is at most a speculation?
Thanks ....
prior to CM7 ...landed was really changing hands at new highs (almost everywhere) ...which is worrying ....
I guess CM7 is a good doze of medicine ....
You should take a hard look at the latest landed caveats lodged after CM7. Its the first time I see $2.5k land psf outside D9,D10,D11. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Do you have actual statistics on the no. of landed as well as actual land size owned by these new SC? If not, it is at most a speculation?
From what I gather from landed property owner here, they are all saying that new SC will push up landed property prices. I guess they cant be all wrong or they are just being naive?
thomaspaine
15-02-13, 15:22
You are welcome. The next step of course would be to map out your strategy before the influx of immigrants start.
Noted....but...
1. Many new landed (semiDs) are priced above 1800psf (some as high as 2200psf) ... landed is a long term play ...but how high can it go in say 5y/10y horizon ?
2. Of coz, if we follow HKG development - then Spore landed is still 'cheap' , I guess ?
thomaspaine
15-02-13, 16:16
Just got this ....
Sample size abit small tho .
Here it goes .....
GONG XI FA CAI & thank you for participating in the survey which I sent out on the 8th February. What is more interesting is the fact that I noticed a certain pattern in the groups of people who responded differently. Please note that this survey is NOT based on the market as a whole & rather the landed properties in the prime district (Bt Timah & Holland vicinity) or otherwise known as the Central Core Region (CCR). These are also based on those who responded from a list of 595 receivers. Findings as follows:
45.92% felt that prices will stabalized & a large number from this group are people from the financial industry. A fair balance between the sellers & the buyers group as well as the end-user & investor group.
27.46% felt prices will decline & the majority comprises of buyers; mostly those who owned more than 1 property & sellers, who have already sold their landed property. Few are 1st time-buyer who are buying a landed home for own stay. A fair bit of businessman/ self-employed & investors in this group. Off the record, we brokered an intermediate terrace (average condition) at Namly Place for S$2223 PSF on the 3rd day after the 7th cooling measure was implemented. That is a benchmark for a similar condition terrace house in the same vicinity.
26.62% felt that prices will rise & again we have a fair balance in this group who are sellers as well as buyers. One common agreement everyone in this group has is the fact that the “white paper” issue (6.9 million in 2030) is almost a guarantee that those who owned land will benefit the most out of it. The ABSD is not a factor which will deter their buying decision BUT they see more potential in certain selected districts. For them, holding the landed properties as a long-term investment is their objective. They see the increase in new citizens or SPRs with LDAU approval to buy landed as one of the main reason to the increase in pricing.
again you are speculating the economic contribution of the new citizen coming to Singapore. Which new citizen do you have in mind that has brought about huge economic contribution to Singapore?
landed owner segment is indeed small, but I wont dare say the land area they occupied is not significant.
I think you will be sorely disappointed. Our policy makers look at the big picture and our population problem is overriding. They admit citizens based on what they assess to be their future contributions. Whether it pans out is an educated 'bet' they are taking. Its like drilling for oil wells. They only need to strike a few big ones. They won't waste their time and effort to monitor the economic contribution of each and every new citizen.
They have mass housing problems to deal with. The landed segment will be the last segment they will look at given that it houses such a small percentage of the total population. Furthermore, why will they want to set policies which run counter to their white paper and make it unattractive to potential new citizens.
You should channel all your angst and frustration into more productive activities rather than griping here in this forum that the govt has not reserved a lovely piece of landed for you at a cheap price
I think you will be sorely disappointed. Our policy makers look at the big picture and our population problem is overriding. They admit citizens based on what they assess to be their future contributions. Whether it pans out is an educated 'bet' they are taking. Its like drilling for oil wells. They only need to strike a few big ones. They won't waste their time and effort to monitor the economic contribution of each and every new citizen.
They have mass housing problems to deal with. The landed segment will be the last segment they will look at given that it houses such a small percentage of the total population. Furthermore, why will they want to set policies which run counter to their white paper and make it unattractive to potential new citizens.
You should channel all your angst and frustration into more productive activities rather than griping here in this forum that the govt has not reserved a lovely piece of landed for you at a cheap price
as long as new singaporeans remain minority in this country, it will make sense for government to tweak the policy to favor Singaporean sons (who served NS) and daughters who are born and bred in Singapore rather than some rich foreigners who take up citizenship for the sake of preserving wealth and security for their family.
Ultimately it is the people who will have the final say in how this country should be run instead politicians, billionaire or millionaire.
Here is a classic example of how some rich Indonesian could come to Singapore and scope up GCB without much contribution to Singapore economy.
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/My%2BMoney/Property/Story/A1Story20120413-339518.html
Like I said, you still don't get it. Its all about the long term. These new citizens will become old citizens in due course and have children who will be citizens by birth right, then what happens?
Yes, its about the people and the voters who count. Do you really think the policy makers are going to worry about some tiny squeak on the landed segment when they are being bombarded by loudspeakers daily on public housing and transport issues? Its all about what they think are key voter issues and contrary to what you believe, its not about some poor SG citizen who is being 'robbed' of his perceived rightful entitlement to a landed property in SG.
You are still young (33/34 going by yr nick?). Your efforts to demonise the landed segment already border on the extreme to such an extent that people here are wary of your 'cry wolf' syndrome. Don't waste your energy ranting here. Spend it productively making more $ to afford your dream home otherwise you will end up disillusioned, bitter and blaming everybody else (rich foreigners, govt etc) for depriving you of what you think is due to you.
Like I said, you still don't get it. Its all about the long term. These new citizens will become old citizens in due course and have children who will be citizens by birth right, then what happens?
Yes, its about the people and the voters who count. Do you really think the policy makers are going to worry about some tiny squeak on the landed segment when they are being bombarded by loudspeakers daily on public housing and transport issues? Its all about what they think are key voter issues and contrary to what you believe, its not about some poor SG citizen who is being 'robbed' of his perceived rightful entitlement to a landed property in SG.
You are still young (33/34 going by yr nick?). Your efforts to demonise the landed segment already border on the extreme to such an extent that people here are wary of your 'cry wolf' syndrome. Don't waste your energy ranting here. Spend it productively making more $ to afford your dream home otherwise you will end up disillusioned, bitter and blaming everybody else (rich foreigners, govt etc) for depriving you of what you think is due to you.
this is as good as saying that you will let your daughters sleep with any millionaires because there is a good chance that they will marry your daughters and then give birth to millionaire babies.
When Singapore import Chinese tennis players, we were talking about long term, and yes they came, they stayed, they made their money, they got screwed, they gave birth and they left.
LONG TERM.
Please stop being so gullible and try to guess someone age using his forum nick name. Age doesnt mean anything in our discussion here. fact does
Relax all.
To each his views. Landed is not a choice the majority is capable or willing to afford.
I have many financially savvy friends who have switched their investments from condo to stocks now. Yield is easily over 10% yearly, so far very consistent.
There are risks in landed as well, if interests rise, assuming that this segment has comparatively the lowest rental demand and yield according to what was reported. They are shouldering the biggest risk, therefore the gain is the highest (currently).
So let each individual invest in his or her own way, take his or her risks. I doubt the Govt will do anything more to restrict such ownership, but they will most likely also not do anything when such investments plunge. Not everything must be regulated. In fact, the Govt might have already been doing too much with the 7 CMs.
I don't think ppl buy landed for rental. Even if yes, it will be a small minority in the already smaller population of landed owners. More ppl would buy cluster for rental instead...
New SC or Existing SC should be treated equally when it comes to such policy. They come here and they contribute in one way or another. If not, they won't be allowed to be SC. They might be rich new SC and they might be able to achieve certain things easily. So what, isn't this the same every where?
Therefore, don't brood over it, rather, work hard and be rich! :D :2cents:
There are risks in landed as well, if interests rise, assuming that this segment has comparatively the lowest rental demand and yield according to what was reported. They are shouldering the biggest risk, therefore the gain is the highest (currently).
As many have said, most landed people don't look for rental yield at all.. that is why the yield is so low.
They are definately not relying on rental to pay the interest of their housing loans... which is not easy anyway given the low yield.
As many have said, most landed people don't look for rental yield at all.. that is why the yield is so low.
They are definately not relying on rental to pay the interest of their housing loans... which is not easy anyway given the low yield.
you cannot assume all landed property owners are so cash rich and they can afford to leave many millions worth of property lying around to collect dust.
If it is true, then are then we should see such major price correction during recession isnt it?
As many have said, most landed people don't look for rental yield at all.. that is why the yield is so low.
They are definately not relying on rental to pay the interest of their housing loans... which is not easy anyway given the low yield.
Thanks for replies. I agree most buy this category not for rental.
What I meant was, supposing interests go up, the chance of using rental to meet the loan installment is much lower than HDB or condos due to the low rental demand and yield. The less affluent who encounters economic or financing situations might find much less options or flexibility as compared to other types of housing.
If new citizens are rich and wish to invest in the future of SG, why not? But if they get multiple units and deprive natives like Ringo33 with this type of aspiration, they will have to near the risks.
Landed is precious; FH landed is like treasure; and FH landed in prime district is priceless in Singapore. :cheers1:
Landed is precious; FH landed is like treasure; and FH landed in prime district is priceless in Singapore. :cheers1:
I would use the word senseless instead of priceless. If it is so precious why so many people are selling?
Be prepared, the 6.9m population might not actually materialized
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/521358_529797850376682_1597120843_n.jpg
this is as good as saying that you will let your daughters sleep with any millionaires because there is a good chance that they will marry your daughters and then give birth to millionaire babies.
When Singapore import Chinese tennis players, we were talking about long term, and yes they came, they stayed, they made their money, they got screwed, they gave birth and they left.
LONG TERM.
Please stop being so gullible and try to guess someone age using his forum nick name. Age doesnt mean anything in our discussion here. fact does
Your first para is very uncalled for and I am not even going to dignify it with an answer but perhaps its an indication of how bitter and frustrated you are about not being able to own a landed.
Obviously your angst appears to be deep rooted and has clouded you. If you read carefully, I was not talking about age as in your maturity level of posting. That, I leave it to the kind readers here to form their own conclusion. What I was pointing out was that if you are still young, you have a good many years to work hard to build up your reserves. Nothing gets handed to you on a silver platter and whining about it won't help either. The govt doesn't owe you a thing. They have bigger fish to fry.
The fact of the matter is that the landed segment forms such a small segment of the market that any noise (which truly, I have not heard in any govt feedback forum of any unhappiness over landed prices) will be deemed insignificant and not worthy of their attention as their perception is that the brownie points they can score politically by pleasing this small minority is going to be miniscule.
The other fact is that any policy or measure which differentiate between a new or old citizen will run counter to their objectives in the white paper which, may I point out has been passed in parliament. The paper already states that they intend to grow the citizen population to 3.6/3.8m with an intended influx of about 25k NC pa. How you think they are going to persuade 25K foreigners pa to give up their passports to become a SC if they implement differentiated policies which disadvantage these new citizens? These potential candidates will feel like second class citizens and will tell our citizenship officers to go fly a kite. They might as well shred the white paper if they come up with such measures or policies.
You can continue griping and even write to the Minister but landed measures for new/old citizens - IMHO - NOT going to happen....
So far, I have not heard any argument or fact from you to dispute the two points above.
Let it go....work hard, be happy with what you have and strive for your dream.
Your first para is very uncalled for and I am not even going to dignify it with an answer but perhaps its an indication of how bitter and frustrated you are about not being able to own a landed.
Obviously your angst appears to be deep rooted and has clouded you. If you read carefully, I was not talking about age as in your maturity level of posting. That, I leave it to the kind readers here to form their own conclusion. What I was pointing out was that if you are still young, you have a good many years to work hard to build up your reserves. Nothing gets handed to you on a silver platter and whining about it won't help either. The govt doesn't owe you a thing. They have bigger fish to fry.
The fact of the matter is that the landed segment forms such a small segment of the market that any noise (which truly, I have not heard in any govt feedback forum of any unhappiness over landed prices) will be deemed insignificant and not worthy of their attention as their perception is that the brownie points they can score politically by pleasing this small minority is going to be miniscule.
The other fact is that any policy or measure which differentiate between a new or old citizen will run counter to their objectives in the white paper which, may I point out has been passed in parliament. The paper already states that they intend to grow the citizen population to 3.6/3.8m with an intended influx of about 25k NC pa. How you think they are going to persuade 25K foreigners pa to give up their passports to become a SC if they implement differentiated policies which disadvantage these new citizens? These potential candidates will feel like second class citizens and will tell our citizenship officers to go fly a kite. They might as well shred the white paper if they come up with such measures or policies.
You can continue griping and even write to the Minister but landed measures for new/old citizens - IMHO - NOT going to happen....
So far, I have not heard any argument or fact from you to dispute the two points above.
Let it go....work hard, be happy with what you have and strive for your dream.
Well said. As long as HDBs are within reach of the average Singaporeans, the Govt will have done v well. Lower cost = lower interest = huge gains. Air better, lower incidence of pests, easy to maintain, easy to rent, high yield. Be thankful.
Your first para is very uncalled for and I am not even going to dignify it with an answer but perhaps its an indication of how bitter and frustrated you are about not being able to own a landed.
Obviously your angst appears to be deep rooted and has clouded you. If you read carefully, I was not talking about age as in your maturity level of posting. That, I leave it to the kind readers here to form their own conclusion. What I was pointing out was that if you are still young, you have a good many years to work hard to build up your reserves. Nothing gets handed to you on a silver platter and whining about it won't help either. The govt doesn't owe you a thing. They have bigger fish to fry.
The fact of the matter is that the landed segment forms such a small segment of the market that any noise (which truly, I have not heard in any govt feedback forum of any unhappiness over landed prices) will be deemed insignificant and not worthy of their attention as their perception is that the brownie points they can score politically by pleasing this small minority is going to be miniscule.
The other fact is that any policy or measure which differentiate between a new or old citizen will run counter to their objectives in the white paper which, may I point out has been passed in parliament. The paper already states that they intend to grow the citizen population to 3.6/3.8m with an intended influx of about 25k NC pa. How you think they are going to persuade 25K foreigners pa to give up their passports to become a SC if they implement differentiated policies which disadvantage these new citizens? These potential candidates will feel like second class citizens and will tell our citizenship officers to go fly a kite. They might as well shred the white paper if they come up with such measures or policies.
You can continue griping and even write to the Minister but landed measures for new/old citizens - IMHO - NOT going to happen....
So far, I have not heard any argument or fact from you to dispute the two points above.
Let it go....work hard, be happy with what you have and strive for your dream.
If you can truly afford to live in landed property, then you shouldnt have to be too worried about government policy against new SC from buying landed property, ultimately it is those who have over leveraged on landed property that has to be worried about any cooling measures. Perhaps that the reason why so many landed property owners are drumming up the possibility of 6.9m and paranoid when someone spoke about restriction on landed property.
IIRC, not too long ago government did introduce tougher measure to curb PR from buying landed property. If this segment is so small and foreigners contribution is go great, then why should government wants to scare them away?
Ultimately like you said as long as HDB is affordable, we should just spread our legs and welcome the rich. And if there is a war or crisis, Singaporeans should send our sons and daughter to protect the property of new SC.
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/prs-buy-fewer-landed-homes/a/50482
As for imported vs born and bred Singapore, if the new SC is so capable (as you like to assume) I am sure they can easily make more money outside property and why should they refuse to take up SC just because of landed property? On the same wave length, should Singaporeans who couldnt afford landed property also ask our government to go fly kite?
someone posted this in another thread.
Here’s my Rule of Thumb: Buy to make money today, not by selling tomorrow. Take care of the bad times, and let the good times take care of themselves.
Some say landed property owner are not bother by rental yield and only looking at long long long term appreciation.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=16843
If you can truly afford to live in landed property, then you shouldnt have to be too worried about government policy against new SC from buying landed property, ultimately it is those who have over leveraged on landed property that has to be worried about any cooling measures. Perhaps that the reason why so many landed property owners are drumming up the possibility of 6.9m and paranoid when someone spoke about restriction on landed property.
IIRC, not too long ago government did introduce tougher measure to curb PR from buying landed property. If this segment is so small and foreigners contribution is go great, then why should government wants to scare them away?
Ultimately like you said as long as HDB is affordable, we should just spread our legs and welcome the rich. And if there is a war or crisis, Singaporeans should send our sons and daughter to protect the property of new SC.
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/prs-buy-fewer-landed-homes/a/50482
As for imported vs born and bred Singapore, if the new SC is so capable (as you like to assume) I am sure they can easily make more money outside property and why should they refuse to take up SC just because of landed property? On the same wave length, should Singaporeans who couldnt afford landed property also ask our government to go fly kite?
You are not answering my questions :
I am not asking you whether landed owners should be worried about restrictions or measures on landed property. The key question here is what is the driving political motivation or even possibility of govt imposing such measures. If there is no motivation on the govt's part and the possibility is so slim, then what does it even matter how or why landed owners react. Landed is restricted to citizens only. PRs never could buy landed in the first place so what additional curbs are you talking about?
So far, you have not provided any concrete evidence or argument as to why it would be in the govt's political interest to impose such curbs.
On the second point, it is not whether you are capable or rich enough such that being put at a disadvantage is of no consequence to you. Basic human nature is such that nobody wants to lose out. From all my years of dealing with people, it is the rich and powerful people who are the most calculative. The govt recognises this and it was not so long ago that just being put on an equal footing was insufficient to attract foreign talent. All kinds of incentives was thrown at them to attract them to our shores. Put yourself in the shoes of any potential candidate. You will always want to get the best deal for yourself. You are deluding yourself if you think that they are willingly going to accept being a 2nd classs citizen.
FYI. I never posted the statement on the HDB so please keep your crude analogies to yourself.
Learn to to let go and accept that life is never fair. If you channel all the effort you put in concocting all these answers and trolling the landed fourm into some productive, I am sure you will be able to afford a landed soon.
You are not answering my questions :
I am not asking you whether landed owners should be worried about restrictions or measures on landed property. The key question here is what is the driving political motivation or even possibility of govt imposing such measures. If there is no motivation on the govt's part and the possibility is so slim, then what does it even matter how or why landed owners react. Landed is restricted to citizens only. PRs never could buy landed in the first place so what additional curbs are you talking about?
So far, you have not provided any concrete evidence or argument as to why it would be in the govt's political interest to impose such curbs.
On the second point, it is not whether you are capable or rich enough such that being put at a disadvantage is of no consequence to you. Basic human nature is such that nobody wants to lose out. From all my years of dealing with people, it is the rich and powerful people who are the most calculative. The govt recognises this and it was not so long ago that just being put on an equal footing was insufficient to attract foreign talent. All kinds of incentives was thrown at them to attract them to our shores. Put yourself in the shoes of any potential candidate. You will always want to get the best deal for yourself. You are deluding yourself if you think that they are willingly going to accept being a 2nd classs citizen.
FYI. I never posted the statement on the HDB so please keep your crude analogies to yourself.
Learn to to let go and accept that life is never fair. If you channel all the effort you put in concocting all these answers and trolling the landed fourm into some productive, I am sure you will be able to afford a landed soon.
As a country, Singapore itself is already one of the most attractive place to live work play and to keep you money because of security, economic stability, and low tax, there is really no need to prostitute our land to attract NC.
Based on some of the wrong facts you are saying, I am beginning to doubt if you are even a Singaporean? or perhaps you are just a very young property investors.
1) You dont tell people that Ringo33 is about 33 years old because 10 years from now, Ringo33 will still be 33
2) Landed property is a small segment, that doesnt mean that its not under the radar of the government and I have already highlighted that government DID tweak its policy to make it hard for PR to buy landed property
3) i am not sure who ever told you that PR were NEVER allowed to buy landed property.
If you are a born and bred Singaporeans, I am not sure why are you so worried about the lack of NC if we decided to impose restriction on landed property. Does NC need to live in landed property in order to be Singaporeans?
Pardon me, what has garmen do that deter PR from buying landed? I only know they need to seek approval from SLA before they buy? Is that still the same? Or I wrong?
And frankly not about being concern on the rules but rather, why should they spend their energy on this small segment? Do you have any statistics that say majority of the landed are bought by new SC? And lastly, garmen has been trying very hard to integrate new SC and SC and what u predicting here will only widen the gap. U really think this will happen??:2cents:
As a country, Singapore itself is already one of the most attractive place to live work play and to keep you money because of security, economic stability, and low tax, there is really no need to prostitute our land to attract NC.
Based on some of the wrong facts you are saying, I am beginning to doubt if you are even a Singaporean? or perhaps you are just a very young property investors.
1) You dont tell people that Ringo33 is about 33 years old because 10 years from now, Ringo33 will still be 33
2) Landed property is a small segment, that doesnt mean that its not under the radar of the government and I have already highlighted that government DID tweak its policy to make it hard for PR to buy landed property
3) i am not sure who ever told you that PR were NEVER allowed to buy landed property.
If you are a born and bred Singaporeans, I am not sure why are you so worried about the lack of NC if we decided to impose restriction on landed property. Does NC need to live in landed property in order to be Singaporeans?
Pardon me, what has garmen do that deter PR from buying landed? I only know they need to seek approval from SLA before they buy? Is that still the same? Or I wrong?
And frankly not about being concern on the rules but rather, why should they spend their energy on this small segment? Do you have any statistics that say majority of the landed are bought by new SC? And lastly, garmen has been trying very hard to integrate new SC and SC and what u predicting here will only widen the gap. U really think this will happen??:2cents:
Question 1, 2 and 3 :
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/prs-buy-fewer-landed-homes/a/50482
Queston 4 : It is a small but important segment because it occupy huge land area which could be redeveloped to provide housing needs for Singaporeans
Question 5 : You should direct this question to landed property owners in this forum. Based on what many have posted, it seems many are betting that there will be a huge influx of NC buying landed property
Question 6 : How do you integrate NC living in landed property with 80% of Singaporeans who live in HDB flat? Wont forcing NC to live in HDB flat or even condo provide a better platform for integration
Question 7 : Yes, I believe the law needs to be tweak so that we discourage foreigners from taking up citizenship for the wrong reason.
As a country, Singapore itself is already one of the most attractive place to live work play and to keep you money because of security, economic stability, and low tax, there is really no need to prostitute our land to attract NC.
Based on some of the wrong facts you are saying, I am beginning to doubt if you are even a Singaporean? or perhaps you are just a very young property investors.
1) You dont tell people that Ringo33 is about 33 years old because 10 years from now, Ringo33 will still be 33
2) Landed property is a small segment, that doesnt mean that its not under the radar of the government and I have already highlighted that government DID tweak its policy to make it hard for PR to buy landed property
3) i am not sure who ever told you that PR were NEVER allowed to buy landed property.
If you are a born and bred Singaporeans, I am not sure why are you so worried about the lack of NC if we decided to impose restriction on landed property. Does NC need to live in landed property in order to be Singaporeans?
Point 1 is totally irrrelevant to the question which I still pose to you.
2. If landed is so important (in your view) in the eyes of the govt, why has it not been singled out specifically in any of the 7 cooling measures or building guidelines like for eg HDB or MM apts?
3. Please show evidence of any changes or tweaks to written POLICY that the govt has made to curb PRs buying landed.
It is not me that is worried about the lack of NC but the govt. Do you think they will shoot themselves in the foot. On the one hand, they want to welcome NC. On the other, they impose restrictions which will disadvantage the NC. Why don't you question them about whether they are born and bred Singaporeans?
The question remains :
What concrete evidence or soild argument have you brought up so far that categorically proves the driving polictical motivation for the govt to impose curbs on NC buying landed?
Point 1 is totally irrrelevant to the question which I still pose to you.
2. If landed is so important (in your view) in the eyes of the govt, why has it not been singled out specifically in any of the 7 cooling measures or building guidelines like for eg HDB or MM apts?
3. Please show evidence of any changes or tweaks to wirtten POLICY that the govt has made to curb PRs buying landed.
It is not me that is worried about the lack of NC but your govt. Do you think they will shoot themselves in the foot. On the one hand, they want to welcome NC. On the other, they impose restrictions which will disadvantage the NC. Why don't you question them about whether they are born and bred Singaporeans?
The question remains :
What concrete evidence or soild argument have you brought up so far that categorically proves the driving polictical motivation for the govt to impose curbs on NC buying landed?
1) Yes, I do agree that age is irrelevant but I am not sure why do you even bother to guess my age using my nick name.
2) Why do you think Singapore landed property are limited to Singaporeans only
3) http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1158874/1/.html
4) Singapore is not worried about having one less billionaire coming into Singapore to buy landed property, they are only worried there are not enough skilled and white collar WORKERS coming to Singapore to fill the jobs created by both local and overseas companies.
I think you have accidentally hijack this thread to discuss about politics. Perhaps we could continue our discussion on the other thread discussing about restrictions on landed property.
I believe that I have posted some concrete facts to highlight your lack of knowledge on the policies and restriction on landed property, and I glad you said its OUR governments. So whats your nationality at birth? Perhaps we could discuss about your home country policy on land as well.
Quite nonsense, but no point for me to go into this...
U think maybe garmen will also change rule and say new SC children cannot go to good school because there are limited seats....can huh??
Anyway, I'm out of this thred...:D :2cents:
Question 1, 2 and 3 :
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/prs-buy-fewer-landed-homes/a/50482
Queston 4 : It is a small but important segment because it occupy huge land area which could be redeveloped to provide housing needs for Singaporeans
Question 5 : You should direct this question to landed property owners in this forum. Based on what many have posted, it seems many are betting that there will be a huge influx of NC buying landed property
Question 6 : How do you integrate NC living in landed property with 80% of Singaporeans who live in HDB flat? Wont forcing NC to live in HDB flat or even condo provide a better platform for integration
Question 7 : Yes, I believe the law needs to be tweak so that we discourage foreigners from taking up citizenship for the wrong reason.
1) Yes, I do agree that age is irrelevant but I am not sure why do you even bother to guess my age using my nick name.
2) Why do you think Singapore landed property are limited to Singaporeans only
3) http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1158874/1/.html
4) Singapore is not worried about having one less billionaire coming into Singapore to buy landed property, they are only worried there are not enough skilled and white collar WORKERS coming to Singapore to fill the jobs created by both local and overseas companies.
I think you have accidentally hijack this thread to discuss about politics. Perhaps we could continue our discussion on the other thread discussing about restrictions on landed property.
I believe that I have posted some concrete facts to highlight your lack of knowledge on the policies and restriction on landed property, and I glad you said its OUR governments. So whats your nationality at birth? Perhaps we could discuss about your home country policy on land as well.
1. Perhaps you are still missing the point or have deep insecurities about your age since you are still harping on it. Refer to my previous explanation on the age comment and move on.
2/3. I asked for specific changes to written POLICY curbing PRs BUYING landed. All you showed me was a requirement for them to sell off their land if they renounce their PR status or citizenship.
Those who renounce their citizenship or Permanent Residency are to sell their restricted residential properties in two years
Perhaps you don't get the underlying intention of this move. This is to discourage NC from giving up their citizenship. In fact, the govt knows that buying a home in SG is a big move and want them to be rooted hence this measure was introduced. You have still not rebutted my point.
4. I do not know where you get the impression that landed owners here are worried about NCs not buying their homes. Frankly, I find landed owners the most zen, reassured and calm amongst all the forumers here. They hardly post stuff in the landed sub-forum. The only one I know who is frantic and fraught with worry that NCs are buying up the landed in SG is you. If you were not worried, why did you start this thread in the first place (titled - Should there be restriction on landed property?) and pepper the entire landed forum with your derogatory comments ?:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=16809
The fact of the matter is that the govt is welcoming 25K NC pa into SG. Will there be a percentage of these NC that buy landed. Definitely! How much, I really don't know and am not unduly worried about it because like most landed owners here, its not for sale.
Will the govt then discourage these NC from buying landed by imposing meaures to make it more difficult. Highly unlikely.
Please rebut the above if you can rather than avoiding the topic.
5. Talk about pot calling the kettle, there I was making an innocuous remark about your age in a totally different context and here you are trying to dig up on my political affiliation or nationality. To satisfy your curiousity, I am a born and bred Singaporean and am semi-retired. Before, I worked 12/15 hrs daysto get to where I am and none of it was spent in front of a computer trolling forums and digging up useless research. I am of the opinion that the govt doesn't owe you a living and you have to work hard to better yourself. It is indeed sad to see born and bred Singaporeans degenerate into whiners and complainers.
Instead of posting all these avoidance smoke screens about personal data, please get back to topic aand rebut my previous point as well :
2. If landed is so important (in your view) in the eyes of the govt, why has it not been singled out specifically in any of the 7 cooling measures or building guidelines like for eg HDB or MM apts?
Why is it so hard to let go.....if you only channelled half your energy posting all these baseless claims/comments into doing something more productive, you would be able to afford your landed soon
I feel somewhat sad too that here is someone who has been blessed by affordability (and countless benefits of HDB) but can only feel Singaporean if he gets a landed property.
I have once lived in a huge landed area in Singapore for about a dozen years. Based on my experience, there are pros and cons to each type of housing. Much as I enjoyed the life then, the current type of landed options available to most Singaporeans is not that spectacular compared to a place with large lands available, say Australia.
If landing is really so important, do consider migration or PRship elsewhere. 500sqm of landed housing costs less than a million elsewhere in the world, but not in SG. Cars are cheap too.
I still like SG for various reasons - HDB is still the best of the best when everything is compared.
1. Perhaps you are still missing the point or have deep insecurities about your age since you are still harping on it. Refer to my previous explanation on the age comment and move on.
2/3. I asked for specific changes to written POLICY curbing PRs BUYING landed. All you showed me was a requirement for them to sell off their land if they renounce their PR status or citizenship.
Perhaps you don't get the underlying intention of this move. This is to discourage NC from giving up their citizenship. In fact, the govt knows that buying a home in SG is a big move and want them to be rooted hence this measure was introduced. You have still not rebutted my point.
4. I do not know where you get the impression that landed owners here are worried about NCs not buying their homes. Frankly, I find landed owners the most zen, reassured and calm amongst all the forumers here. They hardly post stuff in the landed sub-forum. The only one I know who is frantic and fraught with worry that NCs are buying up the landed in SG is you. If you were not worried, why did you start this thread in the first place (titled - Should there be restriction on landed property?) and pepper the entire landed forum with your derogatory comments ?:
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=16809
The fact of the matter is that the govt is welcoming 25K NC pa into SG. Will there be a percentage of these NC that buy landed. Definitely! How much, I really don't know and am not unduly worried about it because like most landed owners here, its not for sale.
Will the govt then discourage these NC from buying landed by imposing meaures to make it more difficult. Highly unlikely.
Please rebut the above if you can rather than avoiding the topic.
5. Talk about pot calling the kettle, there I was making an innocuous remark about your age in a totally different context and here you are trying to dig up on my political affiliation or nationality. To satisfy your curiousity, I am a born and bred Singaporean and am semi-retired. Before, I worked 12/15 hrs daysto get to where I am and none of it was spent in front of a computer trolling forums and digging up useless research. I am of the opinion that the govt doesn't owe you a living and you have to work hard to better yourself. It is indeed sad to see born and bred Singaporeans degenerate into whiners and complainers.
Instead of posting all these avoidance smoke screens about personal data, please get back to topic aand rebut my previous point as well :
Why is it so hard to let go.....if you only channelled half your energy posting all these baseless claims/comments into doing something more productive, you would be able to afford your landed soon
baseless claim?
1) Did you speculate that Ringo33 is 33 years young?
2) Did you claim that PR was NEVER allowed to buy landed property in Singapore
3) Did you refer Singapore government as YOUR government and then change it to THE government. Why change it from YOUR to THE instead of OUR? So what is your nationality at Birth??
AFAIK, your reply seems to get longer and longer, and much of what you said are personal assumption which contain no facts.
baseless claim?
1) Did you speculate that Ringo33 is 33 years young?
2) Did you claim that PR was NEVER allowed to buy landed property in Singapore
3) Did you refer Singapore government is YOUR government and then change it to THE government. Why change it from YOUR to THE instead of OUR? So what is your nationality at Birth??
AFAIK, your reply seems to get longer and longer, and much of what you said are personal assumption which contain no facts.
Here's a short one for you. Get back to topic and rebut my points if you can.
Here's a short one for you. Get back to topic and rebut my points if you can.
the only point that you are trying to make in this entire thread is that new citizens are such a big deal to Singapore that government needs to roll out red carpet to welcome them, reward them and let them leave as they wish, while born and bred Singapore should serve of national service to protect those wealthy NC who bring their millions to Singapore to hoard our land so that they can preserve their wealth.
Instead of going round in circle, why not just tell us what is your nationality at birth so that we understand what is your true intention of trying to promote NC in this forum.
the only point that you are trying to make in this entire thread is that new citizens are such a big deal to Singapore that government needs to roll out red carpet to welcome them, reward them and let them leave as they wish, while born and bred Singapore should serve of national service to protect those wealthy NC who bring their millions to Singapore to hoard our land so that they can preserve their wealth.
Instead of going round in circle, why not just tell us what is your nationality at birth so that we understand what is your true intention of trying to promote NC in this forum.
You are obviously trying to avoid the issue. Get back to topic.
There are two main points which you fail to address or rebut :
1. Landed segment is not signifcant enough for the govt to impose any new restrictions or curbs on NC buying landed. If it was really such a big deal, why has the govt not singled it out in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
2. The white paper has been passed and the govt has indicated a target of 25K NC pa. Whether you like it or not, a percentage of these NC will buy landed. Is it logical for the govt to roll out the red carpet and then impose a measure which disadvantages them?
You are obviously trying to avoid the issue. Get back to topic.
There are two main points which you fail to address or rebut :
1. Landed segment is not signifcant enough for the govt to impose any new restrictions or curbs on NC buying landed. If it was really such a big deal, why has the govt not singled it out in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
2. The white paper has been passed and the govt has indicated a target of 25K NC pa. Whether you like it or not, a percentage of these NC will buy landed. Is it logical for the govt to roll out the red carpet and then impose a measure which disadvantages them?
Ok, let me repeat this one more time.
1) Landed segment is not significant?
Q1 : Who are you to decide what is and not significant?
Q2 : If it is indeed not significant can you please explain why the government has recently imposed further restriction to make it much harder for PR to buy landed properties in Singapore. You could refer to the post I made a few pages back for the links to the article.
Q3 : Did you claim in your earlier post that PR has NEVER been allowed to buy landed property in Singapore?
2. The white paper is endorsed by PAP, not by Singaporeans, that has got nothing to do with Singaporeans speaking out on flawed policy.
There is nothing that I have proposed that will disadvantage a NC because majority of Singaporeans doesnt live or own in landed property. And if the wish to, they could
1) waiting for their sons to finish they national service, or their daughter given birth to Singaporean babies OR
2) Rent a landed property.
Q4: So what is your nationality at birth? (this is perhaps the 3rd and 4th time I am asking you)
There are a total of 4 questions, appreciate if you could answer them.
Ok, let me repeat this one more time.
1) Landed segment is not significant?
Q1 : Who are you to decide what is and not significant?
Q2 : If it is indeed not significant can you please explain why the government has recently imposed further restriction to make it much harder for PR to buy landed properties in Singapore. You could refer to the post I made a few pages back for the links to the article.
Q3 : Did you claim in your earlier post that PR has NEVER been allowed to buy landed property in Singapore?
2. The white paper is endorsed by PAP, not by Singaporeans, that has got nothing to do with Singaporeans speaking out on flawed policy.
There is nothing that I have proposed that will disadvantage a NC because majority of Singaporeans doesnt live or own in landed property. And if the wish to, they could
1) waiting for their sons to finish they national service, or their daughter given birth to Singaporean babies OR
2) Rent a landed property.
Q4: So what is your nationality at birth? (this is perhaps the 3rd and 4th time I am asking you)
There are a total of 4 questions, appreciate if you could answer them.
Sigh.. I have already rebutted you countless times but it appears it has not filtered in.
Qn 1,2,3
The authorities decide on the significance and the actions of the authorities so far has proven that landed does not figure significantly in their considerations. With the heated market and 7 cooling measures, what conclusions can you draw when landed has not been singled out at all?
I have already rebutted you on Q2. The article you pointed out does not specifically highlight any new restrictions on BUYING by PRs. It only states that anyone who renounces their citizenship or PR status will have to sell the restricted properties within a time frame. You still have not shown me any recent tweaks or changes to govt policy which curbs PRs from buying landed.
Qn 4. Go read my previous post. Pt 5.
Now that I have given you the courtesy of my answers, please address mine :
Q1.
1. If landed segment is really such a big deal and so heated, why has the govt not singled it out specifically in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
Qn 2.
You can speak out all you want but you will have your say only if a referendum is called or wait till the next GE elections. A referendum can only be called under very specific circumstances.
Assuming no referendum is passed, do you think the govt will impose a restriction on NCs buying landed given the objectives of the white paper. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Sigh.. I have laready rebutted you countless times but it appears it has not filtered it.
Qn 1,2,3
The authorities decide on the significance and the actions of the authorities so far has proven that landed does not figure significantly in their considerations. With the heated market and 7 cooling measures, what conclusions can you draw when landed has not been singled out at all?
I have already rebutted you on Q2. The article you pointed out does not specifically highlight any new restrictions on BUYING by PRs. It only states that anyone who renounces their citizenship or PR status will have to sell the restricted properties within a time frame. You still have not shown me any recent govt policy which curbs PRs from buying landed.
Qn 4. Go read my previous post. Pt 5.
Now that I have given you the courtesy of my answers, please address mine :
Q1.
1. If landed segment is really such a big deal and so heated, why has the govt not singled it out specifically in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
Qn 2.
You can speak out all you want but you will have your say only if a referendum is called or wait till the next GE elections. A referendum can only be called under very specific circumstances.
Assuming no referendum is passed, do you think the govt will impose a restriction on NCs buying landed given the objectives of the white paper. A simple yes or no will suffice.
i would appreciate if you can reply my question in orderly manner instead of grouping them together
Q1 : Who are you to decide what is and not significant?
This question is addressing to you because I have not read any report from SLA or MND saying that landed property segment is insignificant. Can you show us some fact instead of using your own and sometime wrong interpretation as facts. You might also want to consider Q2 before answering this question. And just because CM7 doesnt single out landed property, that doesnt mean they are not important as CM7 did touch on commercial property either. Are they not significant?
Q2 : If it is indeed not significant can you please explain why the government has recently imposed further restriction to make it much harder for PR to buy landed properties in Singapore. You could refer to the post I made a few pages back for the links to the article.
Appreciate if you can explain what was the motivation behind our government trying to reduce the number of PR buying landed property when landed property is insignificant like you said.
Q3 : Did you claim in your earlier post that PR has NEVER been allowed to buy landed property in Singapore?
I only need a YES and NO answer.
Q4: So what is your nationality at birth? (this is perhaps the 3rd and 4th time I am asking you)
I only need the name of the country which you were born.
i would appreciate if you can reply my question in orderly manner instead of grouping them together
Q1 : Who are you to decide what is and not significant?
This question is addressing to you because I have not read any report from SLA or MND saying that landed property segment is insignificant. Can you show us some fact instead of using your own and sometime wrong interpretation as facts. You might also want to consider Q2 before answering this question. And just because CM7 doesnt single out landed property, that doesnt mean they are not important as CM7 did touch on commercial property either. Are they not significant?
Q2 : If it is indeed not significant can you please explain why the government has recently imposed further restriction to make it much harder for PR to buy landed properties in Singapore. You could refer to the post I made a few pages back for the links to the article.
Appreciate if you can explain what was the motivation behind our government trying to reduce the number of PR buying landed property when landed property is insignificant like you said.
Q3 : Did you claim in your earlier post that PR has NEVER been allowed to buy landed property in Singapore?
I only need a YES and NO answer.
Q4: So what is your nationality at birth? (this is perhaps the 3rd and 4th time I am asking you)
I only need the name of the country which you were born.
It is obvious a delay tactic to avoid answering my questions.
Q1. The authorities will based their decision on statistics. Go look at Singapore statistics. Private houses only constitute 6.1% of total real estate sector in Singapore as at 2011. It will probably drop further with the new apts and HDB flats coming onstream. Is 6.1% very significant? Remember its about voter numbers and not about land size.
Q2. You still don't get it. Read what measure was imposed. The measure indicated in the article doesn't restrict or discourage PRs from buying. They only get penalized if they renounce their status. It does not disadvantage them as long as they REMAIN a PR or citizen.
Q3. Yes unless they applied for permission.
Q4. What part of 'born and bred singaporean' do you not understand. Please read my pt 5 in #46 again.
Stop avoiding the inevitable. Your delay tactics do not annoy me at all but it does show that you just unable to or are afraid answer my questions which I pose here again :
Q1.
1. If landed segment is really such a big deal and so heated, why has the govt not singled it out specifically in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
Qn 2.
You can speak out all you want but you will have your say only if a referendum is called or wait till the next GE elections. A referendum can only be called under very specific circumstances.
Assuming no referendum is passed, do you think the govt will impose a restriction on NCs buying landed given the objectives of the white paper. A simple yes or no will suffice.
Back in 1997 when the property market crashed, did the landed property market fall more or less than the condo market?
Back in 1997 when the property market crashed, did the landed property market fall more or less than the condo market?
And this is despite Singapore population growing and new citizens coming to Singapore.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2013/pr13-06a7.pdf
And this is despite Singapore population growing and new citizens coming to Singapore.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/pr/graphics/2013/pr13-06a7.pdf
If you look at the chart, the detached housing prices crashed from 1997 to 1999. It crashed the fastest and equalised with the rest of the market in 1999
It is obvious a delay tactic to avoid answering my questions.
Q1. The authorities will based their decision on statistics. Go look at Singapore statistics. Private houses only constitute 6.1% of total real estate sector in Singapore as at 2011. It will probably drop further with the new apts and HDB flats coming onstream. Is 6.1% very significant? Remember its about voter numbers and not about land size.
Q2. You still don't get it. Read what measure was imposed. The measure indicated in the article doesn't restrict or discourage PRs from buying. They only get penalized if they renounce their status. It does not disadvantage them as long as they REMAIN a PR or citizen.
Q3. Yes unless they applied for permission.
Q4. What part of 'born and bred singaporean' do you not understand. Please read my pt 5 in #46 again.
Stop avoiding the inevitable. Your delay tactics do not annoy me at all but it does show that you just unable to or are afraid answer my questions which I pose here again :
Q1.
1. If landed segment is really such a big deal and so heated, why has the govt not singled it out specifically in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
Qn 2.
You can speak out all you want but you will have your say only if a referendum is called or wait till the next GE elections. A referendum can only be called under very specific circumstances.
Assuming no referendum is passed, do you think the govt will impose a restriction on NCs buying landed given the objectives of the white paper. A simple yes or no will suffice.
This is not a delay tactic, this is to ensure that facts of our discussion doesnt get muddle by baseless assumptions
Private houses only constitute 6.1% of total real estate sector in Singapore as at 2011. It will probably drop further with the new apts and HDB flats coming onstream. Is 6.1% very significant? Remember its about voter numbers and not about land size.
There is where you are wrong. In a country that need to spend billions of dollar reclaiming land, its the land area which is more important to Singapore, not the % of population living in landed property. Do you happen to know what is the land area currently occupied by landed property at the moment?
You still don't get it. Read what measure was imposed. The measure indicated in the article doesn't restrict or discourage PRs from buying. They only get penalized if they renounce their status. It does not disadvantage them as long as they REMAIN a PR or citizen.
This is an example of selective reading.
"After the further tightening up, I suspect we are looking at very few people who would qualify. I think probably less than half of those who had previously qualified under the earlier strict criteria would qualify now. I'd be surprised if approvals are more than 50 per year," said Mr Shanmugam"
Yes unless they applied for permission.
this is exactly what you wrote, word for word. Doesnt sound the same as what you just said.
Landed is restricted to citizens only. PRs never could buy landed in the first place so what additional curbs are you talking about?
What part of 'born and bred singaporean' do you not understand. Please read my pt 5 in #46 again.
You cant blame me for asking when you address Singapore government as YOUR government.
1. If landed segment is really such a big deal and so heated, why has the govt not singled it out specifically in all the recent cooling measures like for e.g HDB/MM apts
What is the point of asking when you choose to ignore my earlier post about government imposing more restriction on landed property ownership. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1158874/1/.html
Before asking me this question, have you ever question the validity of your argument here. Can you use the same argument to say that commercial property segment is insignificant to Singapore because they have been left out in almost all the CMs.
You can speak out all you want but you will have your say only if a referendum is called or wait till the next GE elections. A referendum can only be called under very specific circumstances.
Assuming no referendum is passed, do you think the govt will impose a restriction on NCs buying landed given the objectives of the white paper. A simple yes or no will suffice.
You question is based on assumption and you are asking a yes and no reply? Whats your purpose?
Based on the mood on the ground, I would like to believe the a referendum will be be called and that government could possibly introduce green paper to supersede the white paper before the next election.
If you look at the chart, the detached housing prices crashed from 1997 to 1999. It crashed the fastest and equalised with the rest of the market in 1999
Thanks. Hope this pacifies everyone.
It's a free market. Let he who takes the biggest risk harvest the biggest gain.
Greater risk also means the greatest free fall possible. Despite land shortage, a combination of factors like much greater absolute quantum, interest rate increase, lack of rental demand, plus can only sell to Singaporeans or new citizens, means that if and when price drops, few will buy even if they are eligible or has the ability to.
So please be patient if one is adamant about this segment of housing... Risks still outweigh gains for me.
Thanks. Hope this pacifies everyone.
It's a free market. Let he who takes the biggest risk harvest the biggest gain.
Greater risk also means the greatest free fall possible. Despite land shortage, a combination of factors like much greater absolute quantum, interest rate increase, lack of rental demand, plus can only sell to Singaporeans or new citizens, means that if and when price drops, few will buy even if they are eligible or has the ability to.
So please be patient if one is adamant about this segment of housing... Risks still outweigh gains for me.
Got to agree with you.
interest rate will go up definitely. It is a matter of time.
thomaspaine
20-02-13, 13:05
Got to agree with you.
interest rate will go up definitely. It is a matter of time.
Interest rates are at historical lows - so its a no brainer. The question and worry should be - by what quantum.
I tend to think Singapore interest rates will only edge higher and not jump as most fear.
1. USA seems to be recovering but rates there cannot go very high because unemployment is still unacceptable high. As stock markets edge higher, markets will adjust rates higher - but I doubt the FED will raise FED funds any time soon. Hence, yield curve will steepen a little but short term rates will remain LOW.
2. Europe is still 3 steps behind USA's recovery - hence no need to say more.
3. MAS does not have an interest policy but uses FX to 'fight' inflation . Unless Singapore's economy becomes red hot , I think the upside potential for rates here (short term) can only be 100-120bp based on current situation.
Interest rates are at historical lows - so its a no brainer. The question and worry should be - by what quantum.
I tend to think Singapore interest rates will only edge higher and not jump as most fear.
1. USA seems to be recovering but rates there cannot go very high because unemployment is still unacceptable high. As stock markets edge higher, markets will adjust rates higher - but I doubt the FED will raise FED funds any time soon. Hence, yield curve will steepen a little but short term rates will remain LOW.
2. Europe is still 3 steps behind USA's recovery - hence no need to say more.
3. MAS does not have an interest policy but uses FX to 'fight' inflation . Unless Singapore's economy becomes red hot , I think the upside potential for rates here (short term) can only be 100-120bp based on current situation.
But we have to take into account that the landed property market has outpaced the general market. SO I think it is due for the correction
thomaspaine
20-02-13, 13:38
But we have to take into account that the landed property market has outpaced the general market. SO I think it is due for the correction
I was commenting on your statement that interest rates will surely RISE .
Landed correction ? I really dunno...that's why I started this thread to listen to other opinions.
Thanks
I just want to offer my view as a thinker for u. At the moment, if I'm not wrong, there are only slightly more than 70k landed units in Singapore. There are more than 1.15mil household as of 2012. do u think this 6% units is a lot? This 6% of total including hdb, condo, etc, will only drop as garmen ramp up building more hdb and developer ramp up building more condo. So, why do you think the price will drop?? Because no demand?? Over supply?? This is a basic economic equation of supply and demand. Of course, there are also other factors which will affect the pricing of landed.
But looking ahead, with not many units up for grap, I don't think the price will drop.
Remember, only 6% of residential units are landed, including cluster houses. This percentage will only drop for sure. Demand is there as population increase but for supply, I don't think so or even if there is, it will not be sufficient to cope with the raising demand.
Your call....:p :2cents:
Your statement about landed property prices have outpaced the general property is wrong. If you compare property prices based on psf, you will find that landed property prices are actually lower than many condos in the same area.
Do you know that due to the fact that government wants to restrict purchase of landed properties by foreigners, their prices have not gone up in line with the condo prices. In other word, the prices of landed property prices are artificially suppressed by government policy.
As we know, Singapore is considered a Safe Haven for many rich people. All these people want is to invest in properties especially landed properties. Barring any unforeseen circumstances like SARS, wars, etc., the demand for landed property segment will remain very strong...
But we have to take into account that the landed property market has outpaced the general market. SO I think it is due for the correction
I just want to offer my view as a thinker for u. At the moment, if I'm not wrong, there are only slightly more than 70k landed units in Singapore. There are more than 1.15mil household as of 2012. do u think this 6% units is a lot? This 6% of total including hdb, condo, etc, will only drop as garmen ramp up building more hdb and developer ramp up building more condo. So, why do you think the price will drop?? Because no demand?? Over supply?? This is a basic economic equation of supply and demand. Of course, there are also other factors which will affect the pricing of landed.
But looking ahead, with not many units up for grap, I don't think the price will drop.
Remember, only 6% of residential units are landed, including cluster houses. This percentage will only drop for sure. Demand is there as population increase but for supply, I don't think so or even if there is, it will not be sufficient to cope with the raising demand.
Your call....:p :2cents:
There was also a discussion earlier regarding the number of FH landed out of this 70+k landed which includes LH and Cluster. The final number is indeed ooh la la.
i can agree with u, in general, condo psf is much higher than normal landed terrace or semi-d or cluster in the same district.
Eg.
D22, 2185 sqft terrace (3 storey) about 1.7mil, psf=780
D22, EC 1300 sqft about 1.1+mil, psf=800
D27, cluster 3498sqft about 1.6+mil, psf=477
D27, Condo 1076sqft about 1.3+mil, psf=1200+
there are many many eg., so in term of built up area or in terms of land psf, condo price run up is worst, because they are expose to foreigner buying...:2cents:
Your statement about landed property prices have outpaced the general property is wrong. If you compare property prices based on psf, you will find that landed property prices are actually lower than many condos in the same area.
Do you know that due to the fact that government wants to restrict purchase of landed properties by foreigners, their prices have not gone up in line with the condo prices. In other word, the prices of landed property prices are artificially suppressed by government policy.
As we know, Singapore is considered a Safe Haven for many rich people. All these people want is to invest in properties especially landed properties. Barring any unforeseen circumstances like SARS, wars, etc., the demand for landed property segment will remain very strong...
i can agree with u, in general, condo psf is much higher than normal landed terrace or semi-d or cluster in the same district.
Eg.
D22, 2185 sqft terrace (3 storey) about 1.7mil, psf=780
D22, EC 1300 sqft about 1.1+mil, psf=800
D27, cluster 3498sqft about 1.6+mil, psf=477
D27, Condo 1076sqft about 1.3+mil, psf=1200+
there are many many eg., so in term of built up area or in terms of land psf, condo price run up is worst, because they are expose to foreigner buying...:2cents:
Even within the same estate like d'leedon and interlace the psf for the cluster houses are much lower. Of course they are also bigger and will eventually be more expensive
thomaspaine
26-02-13, 08:30
As we know, Singapore is considered a Safe Haven for many rich people. All these people want is to invest in properties especially landed properties. Barring any unforeseen circumstances like SARS, wars, etc., the demand for landed property segment will remain very strong...
LANDED in Singapore is indeed VERY CHEAP vis-a-vis landed in HKG !
as the younger generation become very dependent on their parents, you would see increasing multi-gen families with all living under one roof. In a way living together is good but , maybe some are doing it out of the wrong causes...:o There are ppl who stay together so that they can take care of each others....but there are some who just want to take advantage of the situations...:2cents:
Having said that, the demand for bigger unit condo or demand for landed with more rooms, will trend higher. And with cluster landed offering more storeys with rooms (offers more privacy), or landed with bigger buildup areas with more rooms, these will be of great demand in future. Limited supply, high demand as population grows. Why landed? As you compare landed buildup areas psf and condo psf, you will know it is more worthwhile getting landed with lower psf.
for own stay and capital appreciation....not talking about rental.
just my two cents. ;)
as the younger generation become very dependent on their parents, you would see increasing multi-gen families with all living under one roof. In a way living together is good but , maybe some are doing it out of the wrong causes...:o There are ppl who stay together so that they can take care of each others....but there are some who just want to take advantage of the situations...:2cents:
Having said that, the demand for bigger unit condo or demand for landed with more rooms, will trend higher. And with cluster landed offering more storeys with rooms (offers more privacy), or landed with bigger buildup areas with more rooms, these will be of great demand in future. Limited supply, high demand as population grows. Why landed? As you compare landed buildup areas psf and condo psf, you will know it is more worthwhile getting landed with lower psf.
for own stay and capital appreciation....not talking about rental.
just my two cents. ;)
There is absolutely no evidence of what you said that is happening here in Singapore. Kid dependent and wanting to live with their parents or in laws?
If they need to depend on their parents, do you think they can afford to live in landed property in Singapore?
I think you are living in self denial lah.
what are you talking about?? u oppose until very high lately iszit?? dont u know that there are more dual key units nowadays? didnt u see the 2 mil EC purchased by the parents? so the couple who bought that unit isnt they dependent on their parent? with that 2mil, dont u think they can stay in landed also?? the parents bought it...come on la...:cool:
what self denial are you talking about? again, i am not going into this with u....sai hey...:(
There is absolutely no evidence of what you said that is happening here in Singapore. Kid dependent and wanting to live with their parents or in laws?
If they need to depend on their parents, do you think they can afford to live in landed property in Singapore?
I think you are living in self denial lah.
what are you talking about?? u oppose until very high lately iszit?? dont u know that there are more dual key units nowadays? didnt u see the 2 mil EC purchased by the parents? so the couple who bought that unit isnt they dependent on their parent? with that 2mil, dont u think they can stay in landed also?? the parents bought it...come on la...:cool:
what self denial are you talking about? again, i am not going into this with u....sai hey...:(
AFAIK, the attractiveness of dual key apartments to a buyer is the ability to rent out section of the apartment and use the rental to subsidize the living cost. This is developers smart marketing tactic to make housing more affordable.
Btw, how many dual key units are there in the market right now?
as the younger generation become very dependent on their parents, you would see increasing multi-gen families with all living under one roof. In a way living together is good but , maybe some are doing it out of the wrong causes...:o There are ppl who stay together so that they can take care of each others....but there are some who just want to take advantage of the situations...:2cents:
Having said that, the demand for bigger unit condo or demand for landed with more rooms, will trend higher. And with cluster landed offering more storeys with rooms (offers more privacy), or landed with bigger buildup areas with more rooms, these will be of great demand in future. Limited supply, high demand as population grows. Why landed? As you compare landed buildup areas psf and condo psf, you will know it is more worthwhile getting landed with lower psf.
for own stay and capital appreciation....not talking about rental.
just my two cents. ;)
I'm with you on this....overall, its still cheaper to buy landed or cluster and all 3 generation stay together compared to separate condos for each family nucleus. In fact, there are even economies of scale and grand parents can help care for grand-children and the children can also care for the aged parents later on. The only issue is whether one's wife or mother is willing to stay with each other under 1 roof or not....I know both of mine are not willing, even though my wife is on very good terms with my mum :)
If I have my way, I would also stay in a landed/ cluster with my parents.....
I'm with you on this....overall, its still cheaper to buy landed or cluster and all 3 generation stay together compared to separate condos for each family nucleus. In fact, there are even economies of scale and grand parents can help care for grand-children and the children can also care for the aged parents later on. The only issue is whether one's wife or mother is willing to stay with each other under 1 roof or not....I know both of mine are not willing, even though my wife is on very good terms with my mum :)
If I have my way, I would also stay in a landed/ cluster with my parents.....
Its is like buying a bus vs a car. If you can ferry the entire family of 15 to 20 people in the bus, it will be cheaper than owning car.
Its is like buying a bus vs a car. If you can ferry the entire family of 15 to 20 people in the bus, it will be cheaper than owning car.
If you look from the perspective of the country, you are absolutely right...that's why we have public bus....
but wrong analogy lah and I know what you are driving at ;)
Tell me which family of 15 need to travel everywhere at the same time everyday? Even those who runs a family own business also dun have to all travel to 1 location at the same time.....
BUT, all 15 members of the same family do sleep at the same time.....maybe 50-75% of the family eat at the same time, so its definitely (perspective of financial wise) worth to stay under 1 roof, especially in view of the disparity between landed and condo.
proud owner
26-02-13, 19:00
If you look from the perspective of the country, you are absolutely right...that's why we have public bus....
but wrong analogy lah and I know what you are driving at ;)
Tell me which family of 15 need to travel everywhere at the same time everyday? Even those who runs a family own business also dun have to all travel to 1 location at the same time.....
BUT, all 15 members of the same family do sleep at the same time.....maybe 50-75% of the family eat at the same time, so its definitely (perspective of financial wise) worth to stay under 1 roof, especially in view of the disparity between landed and condo.
going to toilet in the morning can be a real pain in the ass
going to toilet in the morning can be a real pain in the ass
there is usually quite a lot of toilets in landed. can be 5 or more... if the place is big.
proud owner
26-02-13, 19:14
there is usually quite a lot of toilets in landed. can be 5 or more... if the place is big.
true
my friends house has 5 bedrooms ... + 1 maids room
all ensuites
however .. if there are 15 people ... staying in 6 room house .. even with 6 toilets ...can still be quite challenging
better dont anyhow eat seafood ... in case whole family kana diarrhea at the same time
the tax is quite a killer..
$24k per year :o
not say expensive la.. :D
true
my friends house has 5 bedrooms ... + 1 maids room
all ensuites
however .. if there are 15 people ... staying in 6 room house .. even with 6 toilets ...can still be quite challenging
better dont anyhow eat seafood ... in case whole family kana diarrhea at the same time
Really so many people?
If you look from the perspective of the country, you are absolutely right...that's why we have public bus....
but wrong analogy lah and I know what you are driving at ;)
Tell me which family of 15 need to travel everywhere at the same time everyday? Even those who runs a family own business also dun have to all travel to 1 location at the same time.....
BUT, all 15 members of the same family do sleep at the same time.....maybe 50-75% of the family eat at the same time, so its definitely (perspective of financial wise) worth to stay under 1 roof, especially in view of the disparity between landed and condo.
I am not interested to talk about Singapore politics here, but just using a bus vs car analogy to compare it to landed vs condo.
Bus is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack the whistle and bells of modern family sedan unless you build your own motor home.
Landed is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack all the facilities of modern condo unless you build your own GCB.
As Singapore progress, westernized, liberalized, family size will only get smaller, so lets no kid ourselves that we are going to see many big family living happily under one roof.
Actually if you wish to promote family living, better to buy several hdb flats in the same block. That way you can still can enjoy regular communion and still have your own family privacy.
At it again.....by now, almost all of the regular forumers here know your true intentions. Don't you realise that it only gets worse the more you post? You should take heed of your own post in the 2nd quote below and put on a swimming costume.
I am not interested to talk about Singapore politics here, but just using a bus vs car analogy to compare it to landed vs condo.
Bus is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack the whistle and bells of modern family sedan unless you build your own motor home.
Landed is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack all the facilities of modern condo unless you build your own GCB.
As Singapore progress, westernized, liberalized, family size will only get smaller, so lets no kid ourselves that we are going to see many big family living happily under one roof.
Actually if you wish to promote family living, better to buy several hdb flats in the same block. That way you can still can enjoy regular communion and still have your own family privacy.
Trying another pot shot in another thread which btw, nobody bothered to respond. Looks like the tide went out and guess who got caught ?
Lets not assume that all gamblers are rich. Its only when the tides are down then we will know who is swimming naked.
Having said that I do agree that the impact is not material, but it will definitely make landed lose more of its shine.
Really so many people?
I cannot imagine having 2 or 3 families to live together under the same roof.
Might be better off buying 2 or 3 different condo in the same project if the intention is to live near to each other.
I am not interested to talk about Singapore politics here, but just using a bus vs car analogy to compare it to landed vs condo.
Bus is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack the whistle and bells of modern family sedan unless you build your own motor home.
Landed is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack all the facilities of modern condo unless you build your own GCB.
As Singapore progress, westernized, liberalized, family size will only get smaller, so lets no kid ourselves that we are going to see many big family living happily under one roof.
Actually if you wish to promote family living, better to buy several hdb flats in the same block. That way you can still can enjoy regular communion and still have your own family privacy.
Er....who is talking about politics here :beats-me-man:
And it was you who choose the bus vs car analogy.....ok, since you want to use this analogy, I'll play along.
The big bus analogy that you used probably refers to a detached house. But there are smaller `buses' like those 20 seater minibuses (akin to Semi-D or Inter-terrace) or we can also go for the 10-seater minibuses like the Mercedes Viano which DO come with all the bells and whistles of a family sedan and SPACE (cluster housing).
In a nut-shell, I still think its not so crazy an idea to buy a landed like an Inter-terrace or cluster for a 3-generation family and all stay under 1 roof as compared to a 3-bedder + 2 bedder as the psf of the landed is significantly lower than a condo. And as mentioned before, I have not even considered the other benefits of the family taking care of each other and family bonding.
Er....who is talking about politics here :beats-me-man:
And it was you who choose the bus vs car analogy.....ok, since you want to use this analogy, I'll play along.
The big bus analogy that you used probably refers to a detached house. But there are smaller `buses' like those 20 seater minibuses (akin to Semi-D or Inter-terrace) or we can also go for the 10-seater minibuses like the Mercedes Viano which DO come with all the bells and whistles of a family sedan and SPACE (cluster housing).
In a nut-shell, I still think its not so crazy an idea to buy a landed like an Inter-terrace or cluster for a 3-generation family and all stay under 1 roof as compared to a 3-bedder + 2 bedder as the psf of the landed is significantly lower than a condo. And as mentioned before, I have not even considered the other benefits of the family taking care of each other and family bonding.
I dont really consider inter terrace or cluster housing as landed property because there is really no land other than a car park at the front and a yard for doing laundry at the back.
Cluster housing are like having 3 to 4 MM apartment stack together and they are definitely not the kind of housing that promote family bonding because they are not elderly friendly (too many steps to climb) and when kids comes home they will usually end up in their respective room and only appear during meal time.
Are u staying in one? Or this is actually your own eg? Don't assume...every type of housing has its pros and cons and you have to see maybe it doesn't suit u...u try buying 5 MM and see how much it cost u compare to a 5-6rm cluster housing. And then u also compared the total size...:)
Cluster housing is a form of landed in terms of strata title per se and the definition is not set by u or me. If you like u can also call it whatever in your own term. So staying in 5 MM can promote relationship??
I dont really consider inter terrace or cluster housing as landed property because there is really no land other than a car park at the front and a yard for doing laundry at the back.
Cluster housing are like having 3 to 4 MM apartment stack together and they are definitely not the kind of housing that promote family bonding because they are not elderly friendly (too many steps to climb) and when kids comes home they will usually end up in their respective room and only appear during meal time.
Are u staying in one? Or this is actually your own eg? Don't assume...every type of housing has its pros and cons and you have to see maybe it doesn't suit u...u try buying 5 MM and see how much it cost u compare to a 5-6rm cluster housing. And then u also compared the total size...:)
Cluster housing is a form of landed in terms of strata title per se and the definition is not set by u or me. If you like u can also call it whatever in your own term. So staying in 5 MM can promote relationship??
cluster housing is perhaps the lousiest form of landed property to own in Singapore because
1) There is no land, you cant even grow a mango tree in yard
2) High maintenance fee for mostly lousy facilities
3) too many steps in the house, not elderly of child friendly
4) Small living and dining area.
5) No privacy (too close to neighbor)
Dont take my MM too literally, its meant to say each floor is about 500sqft.
I am not interested to talk about Singapore politics here, but just using a bus vs car analogy to compare it to landed vs condo.
Bus is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack the whistle and bells of modern family sedan unless you build your own motor home.
Landed is big, spacious, expensive to buy and maintain, but it lack all the facilities of modern condo unless you build your own GCB.
As Singapore progress, westernized, liberalized, family size will only get smaller, so lets no kid ourselves that we are going to see many big family living happily under one roof.
Actually if you wish to promote family living, better to buy several hdb flats in the same block. That way you can still can enjoy regular communion and still have your own family privacy.
What a silly analogy. Its like comparing residential with industrial property.
cluster housing is perhaps the lousiest form of landed property to own in Singapore because
1) There is no land, you cant even grow a mango tree in yard
2) High maintenance fee for mostly lousy facilities
3) too many steps in the house, not elderly of child friendly
4) Small living and dining area.
5) No privacy (too close to neighbor)
Dont take my MM too literally, its meant to say each floor is about 500sqft.
Friend, the above is not very nice....i hate to say this, but i hate staying in a pigeon hole no matter what you called it or how much it costs!
Let me as a owner shed some lights on cluster home:
1) I didn't know my house is build on air or water!! :scared-5: My cluster is sure built on a land....and as for Mango tree...look carefully, just off serangoon...mango trees are generally planted outside the house. The neighbour around me are less ambitious, we only have papaya....but i have a 600sqft roof garden with passion fruits, bamboo,willow tree and etc.
2) High maintenance? When i first bought it, it was cheaper compared to 2 cars shelter parking + conservancy charges of my ex-5hdb add together. it is $400+ now for a >3400sqft unit. Facilties? I dun even want to go there, if 1 tennis court, 1/2 basketball court, badminton court, 2 large pools + 6 smaller ones, Gym with SOA equipment and 4 x 1000sqft function room ....what else do you want? A Stadium?:banghead:
3) Too many steps, that's true indeed. But if i'm so protective over my kids in using the stairs(as a form of exercise), they will probably not able to use their knees by adulthood. Most families house the grannies in the basement or level 2. As the hokkien saying, "things are dead, human brains are live"...use it la:doh:
4) Living and dining bigger than any 4rm condo I've ever come across, and i even need to drop my false ceiling(after dropped, still at 4m) for the aircon sake. Anyway, me ain't no fat ass....I'm contented with my 7 pax sofa lounge + 55" TV 4.5m away.
5) That's very true again. But cluster living is akin to kampong style....that closeness also bring about social cohesion in the estate. E.g. When my maid cooking at the outdoor kitchen, can just shout over for a helping hand(missing ingredients just like that) Oh, about privacy....dun we have curtains?
The above is to de-myth your view on cluster.
My house has appreciated 1.2 times from what i paid 6yrs back, infact I'm buying another unit to rent out at 5-6K a month. There're more reasons i can share with you "...A house is very subjective, as long as you are happy staying there...it is the best house" and I'll never put someone down based on his choice of property and if you're offended by my pigeon hole analogy....that's is exactly what i'm trying to say here.:hell-hath-no-fury:
Cheers
Friend, the above is not very nice....i hate to say this, but i hate staying in a pigeon hole no matter what you called it or how much it costs!
Let me as a owner shed some lights on cluster home:
1) I didn't know my house is build on air or water!! :scared-5: My cluster is sure built on a land....and as for Mango tree...look carefully, just off serangoon...mango trees are generally planted outside the house. The neighbour around me are less ambitious, we only have papaya....but i have a 600sqft roof garden with passion fruits, bamboo,willow tree and etc.
2) High maintenance? When i first bought it, it was cheaper compared to 2 cars shelter parking + conservancy charges of my ex-5hdb add together. it is $400+ now for a >3400sqft unit. Facilties? I dun even want to go there, if 1 tennis court, 1/2 basketball court, badminton court, 2 large pools + 6 smaller ones, Gym with SOA equipment and 4 x 1000sqft function room ....what else do you want? A Stadium?:banghead:
3) Too many steps, that's true indeed. But if i'm so protective over my kids in using the stairs(as a form of exercise), they will probably not able to use their knees by adulthood. Most families house the grannies in the basement or level 2. As the hokkien saying, "things are dead, human brains are live"...use it la:doh:
4) Living and dining bigger than any 4rm condo I've ever come across, and i even need to drop my false ceiling(after dropped, still at 4m) for the aircon sake. Anyway, me ain't no fat ass....I'm contented with my 7 pax sofa lounge + 55" TV 4.5m away.
5) That's very true again. But cluster living is akin to kampong style....that closeness also bring about social cohesion in the estate. E.g. When my maid cooking at the outdoor kitchen, can just shout over for a helping hand(missing ingredients just like that) Oh, about privacy....dun we have curtains?
The above is to de-myth your view on cluster.
My house has appreciated 1.2 times from what i paid 6yrs back, infact I'm buying another unit to rent out at 5-6K a month. There're more reasons i can share with you "...A house is very subjective, as long as you are happy staying there...it is the best house" and I'll never put someone down based on his choice of property and if you're offended by my pigeon hole analogy....that's is exactly what i'm trying to say here.:hell-hath-no-fury:
Cheers
I believe you are referring to LH99 cluster project call The Shaughnessy
which according to squarefoot.com.sg one recent transaction,
a 3305 sqft unit
Bought 28 Sep 2006 - $938,624 ($284 psf)
Sold 18 Dec 2012 - $1,768,175 ($535 psf)
Profit $829,555, 88% over 6 years or 10.7% per year
(about 30 to 40% lower than what you have claim)
And according to URA, the rental rate this project ranges from $4800 to $5500 per month, which is around $1.4 to $1.6 psf, or around 3.2 to 3.7% rental yield.
on 18 Dec 2012 for an annual return of 10.7% per year.
buttercarp
05-03-13, 00:00
Friend, the above is not very nice....i hate to say this, but i hate staying in a pigeon hole no matter what you called it or how much it costs!
Let me as a owner shed some lights on cluster home:
1) I didn't know my house is build on air or water!! :scared-5: My cluster is sure built on a land....and as for Mango tree...look carefully, just off serangoon...mango trees are generally planted outside the house. The neighbour around me are less ambitious, we only have papaya....but i have a 600sqft roof garden with passion fruits, bamboo,willow tree and etc.
2) High maintenance? When i first bought it, it was cheaper compared to 2 cars shelter parking + conservancy charges of my ex-5hdb add together. it is $400+ now for a >3400sqft unit. Facilties? I dun even want to go there, if 1 tennis court, 1/2 basketball court, badminton court, 2 large pools + 6 smaller ones, Gym with SOA equipment and 4 x 1000sqft function room ....what else do you want? A Stadium?:banghead:
3) Too many steps, that's true indeed. But if i'm so protective over my kids in using the stairs(as a form of exercise), they will probably not able to use their knees by adulthood. Most families house the grannies in the basement or level 2. As the hokkien saying, "things are dead, human brains are live"...use it la:doh:
4) Living and dining bigger than any 4rm condo I've ever come across, and i even need to drop my false ceiling(after dropped, still at 4m) for the aircon sake. Anyway, me ain't no fat ass....I'm contented with my 7 pax sofa lounge + 55" TV 4.5m away.
5) That's very true again. But cluster living is akin to kampong style....that closeness also bring about social cohesion in the estate. E.g. When my maid cooking at the outdoor kitchen, can just shout over for a helping hand(missing ingredients just like that) Oh, about privacy....dun we have curtains?
The above is to de-myth your view on cluster.
My house has appreciated 1.2 times from what i paid 6yrs back, infact I'm buying another unit to rent out at 5-6K a month. There're more reasons i can share with you "...A house is very subjective, as long as you are happy staying there...it is the best house" and I'll never put someone down based on his choice of property and if you're offended by my pigeon hole analogy....that's is exactly what i'm trying to say here.:hell-hath-no-fury:
Cheers
Hi naughtiboy, welcome!
Your maiden post!
I have seen some cluster houses which ringo mentioned.
However I have seen some which are well spaced out.
I love the concept of Binjai Crest but at that time was not within my budget.
I believe you are referring to LH99 cluster project call The Shaughnessy
which according to squarefoot.com.sg one recent transaction,
a 3305 sqft unit
Bought 28 Sep 2006 - $938,624 ($284 psf)
Sold 18 Dec 2012 - $1,768,175 ($535 psf)
Profit $829,555, 88% over 6 years or 10.7% per year
(about 30 to 40% lower than what you have claim)
And according to URA, the rental rate this project ranges from $4800 to $5500 per month, which is around $1.4 to $1.6 psf, or around 3.2 to 3.7% rental yield.
on 18 Dec 2012 for an annual return of 10.7% per year.
Good analysis but not detailed enough. U know 1st generation bought direct thru ntuc/orchid country club link at 750K a unit? I aint here to bull anyone or selling my estate but just to clarify his opinions n hopefully share my sentiments. The real bonus is really the family oriented living environment, my kids can be let off in the whole estate to run free n safe. They've friends from all over the world, we celebrate octobertfest with germans, holloween with americans n others, n etc. It is a cultural melting pot that kids will grow up being more socialised n confident. It is this reason that stop me from flipping though I can move in landed anytime, ive seen how kids grow up staying landed.....I would rather stay hdb then.
Hope this clarifies....there is more to figures n money in life! :cheers5:
Hi naughtiboy, welcome!
Your maiden post!
I have seen some cluster houses which ringo mentioned.
However I have seen some which are well spaced out.
I love the concept of Binjai Crest but at that time was not within my budget.
Thanks Buttercrap!! Im actually a lurker for a long time...listening, learning amd feeling the market. Have never intended to come in this way but I just needed to clarify.
Binjai (or any owners' stay house)......if u love it (then) just buy...strectch if u have to. It will be worth it and such commitment will force us to work harder:p
Im glad ive took my gamble in properties in my younger days n im now retired at 40+++. You know what is life out of rat race? Personally, is like a monk in nirvana. ...everything just grind to a halt, you r no longer rushing, u have all the time in your hand, u take time to smell the flowers, u yearn to just have coffee with friends and make new friends......:sleep:
Well done. Look forward to the day. I know a lawyer who does not practice anymore but travel around the world in late 30s due to the property investment since 2003. Care to share how you make it? Always like to learn from them.
Thanks Buttercrap!! Im actually a lurker for a long time...listening, learning amd feeling the market. Have never intended to come in this way but I just needed to clarify.
Binjai (or any owners' stay house)......if u love it (then) just buy...strectch if u have to. It will be worth it and such commitment will force us to work harder:p
Im glad ive took my gamble in properties in my younger days n im now retired at 40+++. You know what is life out of rat race? Personally, is like a monk in nirvana. ...everything just grind to a halt, you r no longer rushing, u have all the time in your hand, u take time to smell the flowers, u yearn to just have coffee with friends and make new friends......:sleep:
I believe you are referring to LH99 cluster project call The Shaughnessy
which according to squarefoot.com.sg one recent transaction,
a 3305 sqft unit
Bought 28 Sep 2006 - $938,624 ($284 psf)
Sold 18 Dec 2012 - $1,768,175 ($535 psf)
Profit $829,555, 88% over 6 years or 10.7% per year
(about 30 to 40% lower than what you have claim)
And according to URA, the rental rate this project ranges from $4800 to $5500 per month, which is around $1.4 to $1.6 psf, or around 3.2 to 3.7% rental yield.
on 18 Dec 2012 for an annual return of 10.7% per year.
Good analysis but not detailed enough. U know 1st generation bought direct thru ntuc/orchid country club link at 750K a unit? I aint here to bull anyone or selling my estate but just to clarify his opinions n hopefully share my sentiments. The real bonus is really the family oriented living environment, my kids can be let off in the whole estate to run free n safe. They've friends from all over the world, we celebrate octobertfest with germans, holloween with americans n others, n etc. It is a cultural melting pot that kids will grow up being more socialised n confident. It is this reason that stop me from flipping though I can move in landed anytime, ive seen how kids grow up staying landed.....I would rather stay hdb then.
Hope this clarifies....there is more to figures n money in life! :cheers5:
Good analysis but not detailed enough. U know 1st generation bought direct thru ntuc/orchid country club link at 750K a unit? I aint here to bull anyone or selling my estate but just to clarify his opinions n hopefully share my sentiments. The real bonus is really the family oriented living environment, my kids can be let off in the whole estate to run free n safe. They've friends from all over the world, we celebrate octobertfest with germans, holloween with americans n others, n etc. It is a cultural melting pot that kids will grow up being more socialised n confident. It is this reason that stop me from flipping though I can move in landed anytime, ive seen how kids grow up staying landed.....I would rather stay hdb then.
Hope this clarifies....there is more to figures n money in life! :cheers5:
How you live your life at where you live, or how and where you bring up your kids has got nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread. And all these details about your estate is in material as we are not comparing which development in Singapore has got the best neighborhood vibes.
As long as there are no transaction showing 120% profit since 2006 to 2013, it is really pointless to discuss. Any condo owner can also claim that prices of their condo has appreciated by 120% simply by quoting you the cheapest unit and compare it with the record transacted price.
buttercarp
05-03-13, 11:47
Thanks Buttercrap!! Im actually a lurker for a long time...listening, learning amd feeling the market. Have never intended to come in this way but I just needed to clarify.
Binjai (or any owners' stay house)......if u love it (then) just buy...strectch if u have to. It will be worth it and such commitment will force us to work harder:p
Im glad ive took my gamble in properties in my younger days n im now retired at 40+++. You know what is life out of rat race? Personally, is like a monk in nirvana. ...everything just grind to a halt, you r no longer rushing, u have all the time in your hand, u take time to smell the flowers, u yearn to just have coffee with friends and make new friends......:sleep:
Hi nautiboy... just realized I spelt ur name wrongly in the previous post :ashamed1: .
Btw u also spelt my name wrongly :( .
So we are quits now :) .
Back to the controversy on cluster housing......
If you are a cluster house lover, then it will be advantageous to you if the majority of the population think like ringo, especially if you buy for own stay.
He is trying to tell u staying in cluster is not as bad as what u have mentioned. Each of us got our own preference. His property appreciate 1.2 times nothing wrong with that claim ma....if he buy 700k and now selling 1.6 to 1.7, it's about there. Of course no such transaction la because he haven't sell ma...:doh:
How you live your life at where you live, or how and where you bring up your kids has got nothing to do with what we are discussing in this thread. And all these details about your estate is in material as we are not comparing which development in Singapore has got the best neighborhood vibes.
As long as there are no transaction showing 120% profit since 2006 to 2013, it is really pointless to discuss. Any condo owner can also claim that prices of their condo has appreciated by 120% simply by quoting you the cheapest unit and compare it with the record transacted price.
He is trying to tell u staying in cluster is not as bad as what u have mentioned. Each of us got our own preference. His property appreciate 1.2 times nothing wrong with that claim ma....if he buy 700k and now selling 1.6 to 1.7, it's about there. Of course no such transaction la because he haven't sell ma...:doh:
I believe I did mentioned that cluster housing is the lousiest form of landed housing, i didnt say that cluster housing is the the lousiest form of housing.
Also no point tell me how much you buy or how high you value your own property, those are just your word vs mine.
if want to compare, better to look at actually transaction lah.
ya, there is also no point for you to tell ppl which is the lousiest form of landed...and who is comparing? you are the one who bring up all these nonsense...:doh:
I believe I did mentioned that cluster housing is the lousiest form of landed housing, i didnt say that cluster housing is the the lousiest form of housing.
Also no point tell me how much you buy or how high you value your own property, those are just your word vs mine.
if want to compare, better to look at actually transaction lah.
ya, there is also no point for you to tell ppl which is the lousiest form of landed...and who is comparing? you are the one who bring up all these nonsense...:doh:
actually if you havent notice, even propertyguru doesnt classified cluster house under landed property. They actually put it as condo.
someone spent more than $13m to rebuild the GCB at Margoliouth Road
"Erection of a 2-Storey Detached House with a Basement, an Attic and a Swimming Pool"
http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/free_pjtlist.pdf
If it really cost $350psf to build a GCB, then this GCB will have more than 37,000sqft of build up.
haha...still trying so hard :
28A olive road
Bought in Jan 2009 for $6.8m
Spent $600K for facelift and extension
Sold in Nov 2011 for $16.38m
Gross Profit : $8.98m which is more than 1.2x original cost + facelift cost of $7.4m
From 2009 till 2011, price of that property has gone up by more than 2.21x even after factoring in the cost of facelift.
6.8m for GCB at 450psf? Doesnt sound weird meh?
thomaspaine
12-03-13, 08:46
someone spent more than $13m to rebuild the GCB at Margoliouth Road
"Erection of a 2-Storey Detached House with a Basement, an Attic and a Swimming Pool"
http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/free_pjtlist.pdf
If it really cost $350psf to build a GCB, then this GCB will have more than 37,000sqft of build up.
I know someone in HKG who is spending USD10mio to rebuild his new house .... the new house only about 4500 sqft (built-in) !:doh:
6.8m for GCB at 450psf? Doesnt sound weird meh?
weird only for people who don't do research and have nothing substantive to rebut.
Joan rd (same vicinity) - $490psf in Aug 09 (7 mths later)
Olive road - 2 other transactions for $500+ psf in Sep/Oct 09 (8/9 mths later)
weird only for people who don't do research and have nothing substantive to rebut.
Joan rd (same vicinity) - $490psf in Aug 09 (7 mths later)
Olive road - 2 other transactions for $500+ psf in Sep/Oct 09 (8/9 mths later)
Freehold landed in 2009 was going for less than $500psf. My friend bought a freehold detached for $470psf and I bought a freehold semi-d for less than $450 psf.
I know someone in HKG who is spending USD10mio to rebuild his new house .... the new house only about 4500 sqft (built-in) !:doh:
perhaps there is an underground batcave?! ;)
Freehold landed in 2009 was going for less than $500psf. My friend bought a freehold detached for $470psf and I bought a freehold semi-d for less than $450 psf.
Thanks. You and I know that but apparently some people don't.
perhaps there is an underground batcave?! ;)
How about this? Batcave home theatre..
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17uxmuomzj1dgjpg/original.jpg
Book shelves roll aside to reveal batmobile
http://www.busydoor.com/images/2012/09/Amazing-The-Batcave-Home-Theater-Room-Design-Ideas.jpg
weird only for people who don't do research and have nothing substantive to rebut.
Joan rd (same vicinity) - $490psf in Aug 09 (7 mths later)
Olive road - 2 other transactions for $500+ psf in Sep/Oct 09 (8/9 mths later)
i am sorry that I dont do research on selective information that are meant for the blinded
May 06 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $20m
Oct 09 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $16.3m
mind telling us what are the unit number of the 2 other olive transaction at $500+psf?
Freehold landed in 2009 was going for less than $500psf. My friend bought a freehold detached for $470psf and I bought a freehold semi-d for less than $450 psf.
alamak, freehold landed in sembawang or cluny or nassim?
@450psf, has anyone ever ask how much the seller made or worst lost?
Did anyone ever check what was the landed property prices prior to 1997/8 crisis?
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo, what is your motive by stating misleading or wrong data in your posting on 25 Olive Road?
May 06 : 25 Olive Road, 56,700sqft $20m
Oct 09 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $16.3m
I think you are the one blinded who is trying to deceive others...:doh:
i am sorry that I dont do research on selective information that are meant for the blinded
May 06 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $20m
Oct 09 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $16.3m
mind telling us what are the unit number of the 2 other olive transaction at $500+psf?
Did they slice up the land into 25, 25A and 25B?
thomaspaine
12-03-13, 13:55
How about this? Batcave home theatre..
http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/17uxmuomzj1dgjpg/original.jpg
Book shelves roll aside to reveal batmobile
http://www.busydoor.com/images/2012/09/Amazing-The-Batcave-Home-Theater-Room-Design-Ideas.jpg
No la ....
USD10mio is just to build the house .... NO FURNISHINGS YET !
i am sorry that I dont do research on selective information that are meant for the blinded
May 06 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $20m
Oct 09 : 25 Olive Road, 15,800sqft $16.3m
mind telling us what are the unit number of the 2 other olive transaction at $500+psf?
Some people are not only 'weird' but also blind because they can't even view and understand their own research (if you can call it research) properly :
16 Joan Rd 28 Aug 09 $13.3m 27,125sf $490psf
26 Olive Rd 22 Sep 09 $24.9m 45,273sf $550psf
23 Olive Rd 7 Oct 09 $ 9.5m 17,029sf $558psf
dun be so mean lah... honest mistake ... let's move on ... u know GCB is a diff class of pty
No la ....
USD10mio is just to build the house .... NO FURNISHINGS YET !
cost lots of money to dig up a batcave leh :D
dun be so mean lah... honest mistake ... let's move on ... u know GCB is a diff class of pty
Was it an honest mistake or did he deliberately withhold information to try to prove his point. Who is being selective now? What is his real underlying motive? That is the question.
Some people are not only 'weird' but also blind because they can't even view and understand their own research (if you can call it research) properly :
16 Joan Rd 28 Aug 09 $13.3m 27,125sf $490psf
26 Olive Rd 22 Sep 09 $24.9m 45,273sf $550psf
23 Olive Rd 7 Oct 09 $ 9.5m 17,029sf $558psf
Bottom fishing and splitting land for redevelopment is not exactly a average joe's game, not to mention the ability to buy at the bottom of property cycle and SELL
If you look at the chart, those who have bought at the peak in 1997, would have still lose money if they sell in 2009. And if you look at where the prices of landed property now, you should know how fast this could drop when interest rate goes up.
When the tide is up, everything looks great and calm, when it goes down, we will know who is swimming naked.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Bottom fishing and splitting land for redevelopment is not exactly a average joe's game, not to mention the ability to buy at the bottom of property cycle and SELL
If you look at the chart, those who have bought at the peak in 1997, would have still lose money if they sell in 2009. And if you look at where the prices of landed property now, you should know how fast this could drop when interest rate goes up.
When the tide is up, everything looks great and calm, when it goes down, we will know who is swimming naked.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Alamak, here we go again. Smokescreens to cover up his inept research.
We are not talking about 1997.
1. I have proven that the 28A Olive Rd transaction has made very good returns for the buyer
2. You next question the $450psf transaction in 2009 as 'weird'.
3. I bring up 3 later transactions in that area to prove that the price is not weird.
4. Chart come out again and talk about 1997.....:doh:
Hdb they cannot stay, landed they cannot buy. The condo space just got more congested.
No point using GCB prices as a comparison for landed property because we all know that many of these landed property are purchase by developers during the mist of financial crisis and then split the land to sell for profit.
So please stop comparing those average joe landed property to those in GCB class. When its Toyota coupe, just compare it with Toyota or Honda, no point comparing it with a Aventador or 458.
They way some landed owner here talking about landed prices are like people selling unit trust. They will always tell you how well it has been performing in the last 3 years, 4 years or 5 years, whichever period that give your the best average return.
Always believe this, what goes up will come down. The talk about limited supply was the same song that was sang prior to 1997, and this will not be the last time you are hearing it.
No point using GCB prices as a comparison for landed property because we all know that many of these landed property are purchase by developers during the mist of financial crisis and then split the land to sell for profit.
So please stop comparing those average joe landed property to those in GCB class. When its Toyota coupe, just compare it with Toyota or Honda, no point comparing it with a Aventador or 458.
errr...who was the one who first brought up the Binjai Park GCB for comparison?
Are GCB transactions included in the price index chart which you continually like to flash?
If you can say that they will fall the hardest when the market crashes, why are you saying that we shouldn't look at it when the market is on the rise?
Very one-sided analysis.
They way some landed owner here talking about landed prices are like people selling unit trust. They will always tell you how well it has been performing in the last 3 years, 4 years or 5 years, whichever period that give your the best average return.
Always believe this, what goes up will come down. The talk about limited supply was the same song that was sang prior to 1997, and this will not be the last time you are hearing it.
Totally agree, I was the one singing the same song to my developer uncles back in 1994.
WOAHAHEHEHEHHEHEH
Totally agree, I was the one singing the same song to my developer uncles back in 1994.
WOAHAHEHEHEHHEHEH
Yes and now you are staying in a GCB which your dear friend says will fall the hardest if and when the market crashes.
Agreed with you that the joker is a loser and likes to bring out specific cases to talk down landed property prices but ignores the property trend. Very often that joker tries to mislead the forumers by posting wrong and false data to prove his points. When we corrected his mistakes, then he tried to sweep them aside...very stubborn and shallow fellow indeed. He has lost all his creditability and whenever he posts something, we should just treat them as rubbish and ignore them.
Here we are not denying that landed property prices can go up and down, just like the stock prices. But the fact that Singapore has always been rich men's and women's playground from all over the world (especially in the last few years). What do these rich people do when they come to Singapore? Property hunting is their most favourite game that they play. Many of them will end up buying landed properties. If there is no restriction for foreigners to buy landed properties, the prices of landed properties should be much more or at least at the same level as condo prices. Just look at Sentosa Island how much landed properties have appreciated even though those are only 99 years leasehold properties.
errr...who was the one who first brought up the Binjai Park GCB for comparison?
Are GCB transactions included in the price index chart which you continually like to flash?
If you can say that they will fall the hardest when the market crashes, why are you saying that we shouldn't look at it when the market is on the rise?
Very one-sided analysis.
Yes. The original land was sub-divided into 3 lots, namely 25 Olive Road, 65 Andrew Road and 71 Andrew Road.
Did they slice up the land into 25, 25A and 25B?
I am still waiting for someone here to show how much their terrace house or semi-D has appreciated without any A&A and rebuilding over the years.
And please, dont do bottom fishing because fish cannot survive in empty vessel.
And always remember this, when you see price running away like you see in the chart, then its about time that you should sell, downgrade to HDB and wait for the next cycle.
Landed price will be the first to fall when interest rate rises.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Another rubbish posting that should be ignored! :simmering:
I am still waiting for someone here to show how much their terrace house or semi-D has appreciated without any A&A and rebuilding over the years.
And please, dont do bottom fishing because fish cannot survive in empty vessel.
And always remember this, when you see price running away like you see in the chart, then its about time that you should sell, downgrade to HDB and wait for the next cycle.
Landed price will be the first to fall when interest rate rises.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
If I have posted this back in 1997, everyone like MLP will say its rubbish because landed is limited.....
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....Why are you so fond of 1997 and especially the chart that you have shown endless time? Aren't you feel bored and tired of the chart by now? Please move on with your life and be happy by buying a landed property.
In fact, a lot of people here are waiting to buy another landed properties when there are signs of price dropping. Just like you, we are very disappointed that the prices of landed properties have gone up instead... :banghead:
If I have posted this back in 1997, everyone like MLP will say its rubbish because landed is limited.....
Some people are just in denial :
132 Ocean Drive terrace house - bought brand new in Sep 06 for $1072psf, sold in Jul 07 for $1,741psf. No A&A or rebuilt - annualised profit = 88.6%
14 Paradise Island detached- bought in Nov 09 for $1406psf, sold in Mar 2010 for 2390psf. Annualised profit = 328.9%
There's a whole boatload of examples if you wish.
Alamak, here we go again. Smokescreens to cover up his inept research.
We are not talking about 1997......:doh:
Reminds me of TWIST & TURN cum DIVERT ATTENTION EXPERT MR B.. :D
I have no idea why people here always like to use luxury landed segment to compare. Perhaps that explain why people are saying that landed property are driven by GCB. aka small monkey see what big monkey do.
luckily condo investors doesnt follow that trend and good to see the prices of luxury apartment cooling as well.
Like I said, better watch out for market correction in landed. One day you when shit hits the fan, I am sure those who say I am talking rubbish with disappear for this forum.
See it believing. Nothing climb forever its just an illusion
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Landed is luxury when you don't have tp compete with neighbours for parking space outsise the house on a narrow road. Those just don't make the cut for the term luxury.
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo..... No point for you to post the chart and talk about 1997 rubbish again and again. Nobody here will want to read your rubbish anymore.
If I were you, I would disappear with your infamous user ID and start afresh with a new ID. Hopefully you will talk more sense with a new ID. :tongue3:
I have no idea why people here always like to use luxury landed segment to compare. Perhaps that explain why people are saying that landed property are driven by GCB. aka small monkey see what big monkey do.
luckily condo investors doesnt follow that trend and good to see the prices of luxury apartment cooling as well.
Like I said, better watch out for market correction in landed. One day you when shit hits the fan, I am sure those who say I am talking rubbish with disappear for this forum.
See it believing. Nothing climb forever its just an illusion
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
I have no idea why people here always like to use luxury landed segment to compare. Perhaps that explain why people are saying that landed property are driven by GCB. aka small monkey see what big monkey do.
luckily condo investors doesnt follow that trend and good to see the prices of luxury apartment cooling as well.
Like I said, better watch out for market correction in landed. One day you when shit hits the fan, I am sure those who say I am talking rubbish with disappear for this forum.
See it believing. Nothing climb forever its just an illusion
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
By some people here, you refering to this person is it?
another myth which you will often hear in this forum is exaggerating the profit of landed property. Take this case for example.
68 BINJAI PARK 13-Nov-09 $15,850,000
68 BINJAI PARK 27-Mar-12 $31,000,000.
Landed property owner will tell you that this owner made 16-17m profit in 5 years etc on the 20,000sqft GCB.
What they will not tell you is how much money has been spend to redo the entire estate.
http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432 (http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432)
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo..... No point for you to post the chart and talk about 1997 rubbish again and again. Nobody here will want to read your rubbish anymore.
If I were you, I would disappear with your infamous user ID and start afresh with a new ID. Hopefully you will talk more sense with a new ID. :tongue3:
he makes as much sense as his arguments that the 3rd IR will be in jurong
thomaspaine
12-03-13, 20:19
In fact, a lot of people here are waiting to buy another landed properties when there are signs of price dropping. Just like you, we are very disappointed that the prices of landed properties have gone up instead... :banghead:[/QUOTE]
Ah hem.... I am one of those la ...
Sigh ... CM7 has made the process a whole lot more difficult for me to swap ...
Caught me with my pants down ...:scared-2:
In fact, a lot of people here are waiting to buy another landed properties when there are signs of price dropping. Just like you, we are very disappointed that the prices of landed properties have gone up instead... :banghead:
Ah hem.... I am one of those la ...
Sigh ... CM7 has made the process a whole lot more difficult for me to swap ...
Caught me with my pants down ...:scared-2:
My friend and I are also hoping for the prices of landed to drop, so that we can acquire another freehold landed.
Meanwhile there's nothing much we can do, except to build up a war chest and wait.
This is exactly what I told Ringo. Most landed property owners are waiting for the right opportunity and the right price to buy another landed property. In other words there are certain support level for landed properties especially freehold ones. If every landed property owners think like this, then Ringo will be very disappointed because he is hoping landed property prices to crash and beg him to buy our landed property. LOL
My friend and I are also hoping for the prices of landed to drop, so that we can acquire another freehold landed.
Meanwhile there's nothing much we can do, except to build up a war chest and wait.
over leveraged landed property owner better watch out, the era of cheap loan is coming to an end soon. When the music stop, all hell will break lose, seller will flood the market looking for buyers and white knights, while genuine home buyers will disappear and vultures will appear
In the forum, it is easy to talk about I want to buy this and that etc, when shit hits the fans, everyone will say wait wait wait etc. Action speaks louder than word.
If you have no holding power, better downgrade now. dont listen to the 50 years old story about FH landed supply is limited etc because at the current price, no one can justify living in one unless you own a FULLY PAID UP landed, or you belongs to the RICHIE RICH CLUB. For investment, there not much more upside dude to ABSD, LTV and RISING interest rate.
If you mati mati want to cling on to landed for the next generation, make sure you keep those which people will die to live in, not something that is located in the middle of some very narrow and congested road with no carpark.
If you dont believe, just look at GOLD, supply is limited, world population is increasing, every country is buying gold to hedge against inflation. but look at where the gold price is heading now. Why? because it has hit the price ceiling and there are better opportunity out there to make money.
Always remember this buying landed, timing is very important, if you buy now, I double confirm you will regret for the next 15 years.
Many people are laughing at this chart because they are too young to experience the sentiment prior to 1997 and how it turn upside down so quickly.
Want to invest, you must first look into the past to before you can understand the future.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....So much sour grapes, so much rubbish. Let's see who has the last laugh....
over leveraged landed property owner better watch out, the era of cheap loan is coming to an end soon. When the music stop, all hell will break lose, seller will flood the market looking for buyers and white knights, while genuine home buyers will disappear and vultures will appear
In the forum, it is easy to talk about I want to buy this and that etc, when shit hits the fans, everyone will say wait wait wait etc. Action speaks louder than word.
If you have no holding power, better downgrade now. dont listen to the 50 years old story about FH landed supply is limited etc because at the current price, no one can justify living in one unless you own a FULLY PAID UP landed, or you belongs to the RICHIE RICH CLUB. For investment, there not much more upside dude to ABSD, LTV and RISING interest rate.
If you mati mati want to cling on to landed for the next generation, make sure you keep those which people will die to live in, not something that is located in the middle of some very narrow and congested road with no carpark.
If you dont believe, just look at GOLD, supply is limited, world population is increasing, every country is buying gold to hedge against inflation. but look at where the gold price is heading now. Why? because it has hit the price ceiling and there are better opportunity out there to make money.
Always remember this buying landed, timing is very important, if you buy now, I double confirm you will regret for the next 15 years.
Haha, Ringo.....Ringo.....The same bullshit again and again.....Really hopeless.....Sad state of you.....
Many people are laughing at this chart because they are too young to experience the sentiment prior to 1997 and how it turn upside down so quickly.
Want to invest, you must first look into the past to before you can understand the future.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
The graph shows that all properties (be it landed or non-landed) move in the same direction over the years.
If landed crash, condos also crash. Many of those landed owners are the bosses of the condos owners in work life. So if your boss has to force sell his landed, surely u as the employee is not spared! :doh:
In fact, u probably be force selling your condo first before ur boss does on his! :cool:
wealth of a person is not measure by the size of the house or the car they drive because we all know that many people in Singapore are leveraging themselves to their neck just to maintain a certain lifestyle.
condo quantum is small and shock in interest rate can easily be cover by rental and pool of condo buyers is also much larger because there are no restriction on PR or foreigners
If you look at the chart, condo prices already started to cool, while landed prices are still going crazy, all are thinking that 20K new citizens are carrot head loaded with money and no brain.
reason why condo price will not be affect that much because condo market already started to cool down, while landed property owners are still chasing after the bubble.
Just look that the pattern of the chart in 1997 and then look at the current chart. notice any similarity?
BUBBLE is coming. if you buy now, you will regret for the next 15 years.
If you look at the chart, condo prices already started to cool, while landed prices are still going crazy, all are thinking that 20K new citizens are carrot head loaded with money and no brain.
Looks like someone else also thinks that way, that's why he is calling for restrictions on new citizens
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=16809
Just look that the pattern of the chart in 1997 and then look at the current chart. notice any similarity?
BUBBLE is coming. if you buy now, you will regret for the next 15 years.
May I remind you that during the crash of 1997/8, the percentage of non-landed owners who had to sell off at distress prices was more than double that of landed owners. So, if you still subscribe to your view that the pattern is repeating itself, good luck to non-landed owners if a crash actually occurs.
wealth of a person is not measure by the size of the house or the car they drive because we all know that many people in Singapore are leveraging themselves to their neck just to maintain a certain lifestyle.
condo quantum is small and shock in interest rate can easily be cover by rental and pool of condo buyers is also much larger because there are no restriction on PR or foreigners
If you look at the chart, condo prices already started to cool, while landed prices are still going crazy, all are thinking that 20K new citizens are carrot head loaded with money and no brain.
reason why condo price will not be affect that much because condo market already started to cool down, while landed property owners are still chasing after the bubble.
Just look that the pattern of the chart in 1997 and then look at the current chart. notice any similarity?
BUBBLE is coming. if you buy now, you will regret for the next 15 years.
Talk is cheap. In fact, it is costless to u. U shld change line to become Fortune Teller since u r so confident in your prophecies. Probably your backup plan to support ur MM condo once shit hits the fan and your landed boss fries your cuttlefish.
over leveraged landed property owner better watch out, the era of cheap loan is coming to an end soon. When the music stop, all hell will break lose, seller will flood the market looking for buyers and white knights, while genuine home buyers will disappear and vultures will appear
In the forum, it is easy to talk about I want to buy this and that etc, when shit hits the fans, everyone will say wait wait wait etc. Action speaks louder than word.
If you have no holding power, better downgrade now. dont listen to the 50 years old story about FH landed supply is limited etc because at the current price, no one can justify living in one unless you own a FULLY PAID UP landed, or you belongs to the RICHIE RICH CLUB. For investment, there not much more upside dude to ABSD, LTV and RISING interest rate.
If you mati mati want to cling on to landed for the next generation, make sure you keep those which people will die to live in, not something that is located in the middle of some very narrow and congested road with no carpark.
If you dont believe, just look at GOLD, supply is limited, world population is increasing, every country is buying gold to hedge against inflation. but look at where the gold price is heading now. Why? because it has hit the price ceiling and there are better opportunity out there to make money.
Always remember this buying landed, timing is very important, if you buy now, I double confirm you will regret for the next 15 years.
If you're talking abt those highly leveraged landed owners, I would agree there's some risk at this point in time. Then again, I doubt there are many such owners. Today's strict bank policies do not allow such scenarios. Most landed owners DO have holding power and hence will not be easily flustered by any corrections. I'm not saying landed will be totally unaffected. It all depends on how badly affected the rest of the market will be. Barring any crisis, if the condos,etc drop by a mere 5-10% landed will be minimally affected. In the event of a major crisis where the condos crash 40-50%, landed will of cos be dragged in. It's all about supply and demand.
We are talking about short to medium term here. In the long term, all properties will appreciate and for landed, even more..
As for gold, I dont think it is dead yet. No, not yet. It is merely taking a breather. I foresee another rally in 2013.
If you're talking abt those highly leveraged landed owners, I would agree there's some risk at this point in time. Then again, I doubt there are many such owners. Today's strict bank policies do not allow such scenarios. Most landed owners DO have holding power and hence will not be easily flustered by any corrections. I'm not saying landed will be totally unaffected. It all depends on how badly affected the rest of the market will be. Barring any crisis, if the condos,etc drop by a mere 5-10% landed will be minimally affected. In the event of a major crisis where the condos crash 40-50%, landed will of cos be dragged in. It's all about supply and demand.
We are talking about short to medium term here. In the long term, all properties will appreciate and for landed, even more..
As for gold, I dont think it is dead yet. No, not yet. It is merely taking a breather. I foresee another rally in 2013.
thats definitely not the case.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
CondoSeeker2012
22-03-13, 10:23
thats definitely not the case.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
What's the difference between apartment and condominium in this graph? :confused:
Talk is cheap. In fact, it is costless to u. U shld change line to become Fortune Teller since u r so confident in your prophecies. Probably your backup plan to support ur MM condo once shit hits the fan and your landed boss fries your cuttlefish.
you are absolutely right. Talk is cheap, especially in forum like this. So please spare us from all that BS about you and your landed property
thats definitely not the case.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
You certainly like to flaunt this chart. Please explain to readers here your statement below (especially the part in red), in relation to the chart. I crop it BIG in case you are colour blind. Can you tell all here which segments dropped the most in 2000 & 2008 and enlighten all of us here how you interpret charts and info which you blatantly and continually abuse.
And IIRC, the interest rate for during 2000 and 2008 were pretty stable, however we did see a massive price correction of landed property during both period, which I believe DSR for landed owners were clearly <50%.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/ppi_zpsdad31159.jpg
The higher it goes, the harder it falls.
I am not sure how accurate this graph is. Every segment falls to the same level during every downcycle.
For landed, detached always outperformed terrace and semi d.
The higher it goes, the harder it falls.
The same can be applied to someone's ego here......
Based on the graph alone, detached will fall the most in percentage in the next cycle.
Next downcycle could possibly bottom at around 170-180(mid 2010 price)
Based on the graph alone, detached will fall the most in percentage in the next cycle.
Next downcycle could possibly bottom at around 170-180
Yes, the cycle goes up and down but the key questions you should be asking yourself :
1. What is the possibility of a downturn happening given the current interest rate and economic situation? If you study the entire ppi chart, the longest upward cycle was about 10 years from 1986 to 1996.
2. If a fall comes, will the fall be a hard or soft landing? What steps are the govt taking?
3. We all know that price goes up and down but how many will actually be affected and forced to sell at distressed prices during the down cycle and which segment is most at risk?
Lastly, read this article by Loanguru...the statistics are very interesting :
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-golden-rules-of-property-loan-acquisition.html
You cant blame people for living in denial, "This time is always different" until the shit hits the fan.
You cant blame people for living in denial, "This time is always different" until the shit hits the fan.
Hmmm, it appears from your statement then that a lot of people in the threads below are living in denial. Why don't you enlighten them with your words of 'wisdom'
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=12285
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15176
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17145
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17169
Btw, Are you related to Mr B or DNNCB ? At least one forummer seems to think so.
Reminds me of TWIST & TURN cum DIVERT ATTENTION EXPERT MR B.. :D
Wow, landed property sure can make you lots of money.
Detached house, Sentosa Cove 13,433sqft
Bought 2012-12-20 1,973psf
Sold 2013-03-06 2,084psf
Profit $1,491,063
Annualized profit 30.1%
er.....but wait....who is paying for the SSD?
16% x 28,000,000 = $4.48m
3% - 5400 stamp duties = $789,600
Total loss $5,269,600
Annualized loss 95%
Yeah, landed property owner sure got holding power....perhaps er losing power
Who is cherry picking now? Unfortunately, cherry pick also don't know how to pick properly. This just shows how little the person knows about Singapore regulations and the property market in general.
Of all properties, choose Sentosa property which we all know that foreigners/PRs are eligible to buy with fast track approval.
Do you also know that under some circumstances, foreigners need not pay SSD when they dispose of their properties in Singapore.
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page04.aspx?id=10204
Seller's stamp duty (SSD) for residential properties is exempted for sellers/transferors under the following scenarios:–
Licensed housing developers who are governed under the Housing Developers (Control and Licensing) Act need not pay SSD when selling residential properties developed by them.
Public authorities in exercising their functions and duties need not pay SSD when selling residential properties, e.g. Housing & Development Board (HDB), Jurong Town Corporation (JTC).
Residential property owners need not pay SSD when their properties are acquired by the Government under the Land Acquisitions Act.
Residential property owners need not pay SSD when selling their residential properties due to bankruptcy or involuntary winding up.
Foreigners need not pay SSD when they have to sell their residential properties as required under the Residential Properties Act.Are you absolutely certain that this seller paid seller stamp duty and incurred a loss?
Wow, landed property sure can make you lots of money.
Detached house, Sentosa Cove 13,433sqft
Bought 2012-12-20 1,973psf
Sold 2013-03-06 2,084psf
Profit $1,491,063
Annualized profit 30.1%
er.....but wait....who is paying for the SSD?
16% x 28,000,000 = $4.48m
3% - 5400 stamp duties = $789,600
Total loss $5,269,600
Annualized loss 95%
Yeah, landed property owner sure got holding power....perhaps er losing power
proper-T
with this quote of yours
Foreigners need not pay SSD when they have to sell their residential properties as required under the Residential Properties Act.
Are you implying that foreigners can buy and sell landed property at Sentosa Cove without having to pay SSD because of the ACT, while Singaporeans cant do the same?
proper-T
with this quote of yours
Are you implying that foreigners can buy and sell landed property at Sentosa Cove without having to pay SSD because of the ACT, while Singaporeans cant do the same?
I am not implying anything. Its all written in the IRAS guidelines and Singapore statutes and whoever it is applicable to. Go read up on the IRAS and residential property act. In the meantime, please answer my question :
Are you absolutely certain that this seller paid seller stamp duty and incurred a loss?
I am not implying anything. Its all written in the IRAS guidelines and Singapore statutes and whoever it is applicable to. Go read up on the IRAS and residential property act. In the meantime, please answer my question :
Are you absolutely certain that this seller paid seller stamp duty and incurred a loss?
Are you absolutely certain that seller doesn't have to pay SSD?
Are you absolutely certain that seller doesn't have to pay SSD?
You are the one claiming that seller incurred SSD and made a loss not me? Shouldn't you back up your statement?
I merely showed the possibility that he may not have needed to pay the SSD.
Its not my fault if you can't back up your own statements.
You are the one claiming that seller incurred SSD and made a loss not me? Shouldn't you back up your statement?
I merely showed the possibility that he may not have needed to pay the SSD.
Its not my fault if you can't back up your own statements.
Are you absolutely sure that this seller did loss money after selling this property?
Are you absolutely sure that this seller did loss money after selling this property?
Huh? When did I ever make such a statement? Why are you thinking that I made such a statement or am of the opinion that "seller did loss money after selling this property"
Its not my fault if you can't express yourself properly.
interesting case,
if buyer is singaporean citizen, then renounce citizenship, will then be force to sell (within 10 years?). but this is sentosa cove le, foreigner can buy landed, so this buyer no need to sell
from
http://www.lawhub.com.sg/articles/restriction-of-foreign-ownership-of-landed-residential-pro.html
even if inherit, also given 10 years to sell.
also from the same article:
However, foreigners are allowed by the Act to accept landed residential property as security for a loan. In exercising the power of sale, the foreign mortgagee is allowed to sell the property only to Singapore citizens or government approved purchasers.
you are absolutely right. Talk is cheap, especially in forum like this. So please spare us from all that BS about you and your landed property
Put your $$$ where your mouth is which is $5K to prove that I am BSing.
Put your $$$ where your mouth is which is $5K to prove that I am BSing.
honestly, do you actually think that forummers here are so dumb that they cant tell who is lying and who is bragging?
You came to this forum to brag about your stupid utility bill for landed property. I challenge you to prove if, you cant then you try to counter challenge me to a 5K bet for god know what. why dont you challenge me with 10K 50K or 100K since talking in forums is free.
perhaps we could do 10b bet since qing ming is around the corner.
Those who are over leveraged on landed property better watch out. Make sure you have got enough savings to ride through the storm.
Mortgage rates in Singapore on the way up
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/mortgage-rates-singapore-the-way-20130329
To all wondering about loan quantum and debt service capability of each segment of borrowers, read this from loanguru.....very interesting write-up based on actual data as at 3Q 2012. Leave it to readers here to draw their own conclusions.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-3.png
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-1.png
Unfortunately, there are no evidence that landed property are immune to price correction even if they have strong holding power. Perhaps to the rich, they can afford to lose, while those no so rich, are just clinging on to their landed. I remember reading some article about some landed property owners seeking financial assistance (http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/living-in-landed-property---and-poor/a/98539?utm_source=STCars&utm_medium=Footer&utm_content=Articles&utm_campaign=Cars). Perhaps the thought of down grading is just to humiliating for some people, or perhaps some might be wearing too big a shoe for themselves.
Dont be fool by the loanguru article, during the crisis no holding power will prevent landed property from falling. As you can see from historical price movement.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Can you really rely on somebody's assertations or statements based on a chart when they can't even interpret that chart properly ?
The reason for the crop is simple. Please explain to readers here your statement below (especially the part in red) ,in relation to the chart. I crop it Big in case you are colour blind.Can you tell all here which segments drop the most in 2000 & 2008?
And IIRC, the interest rate for during 2000 and 2008 were pretty stable, however we did see a massive price correction of landed property during both period, which I believe DSR for landed owners were clearly <50%.
I am not sure why do you even need to crop the URA chart. The only reason I can think of is you trying to hide the bad things and only show the good things.
While you are trying to tell us landed property owner has got better holding power etc, however the chart doesnt quite reflect that.
1) The correction in 2000 to 2003 was due to dot com bubble and SARS, nothing to do with interest rate,
2) The 2008 correction again is due to financial crisis, nothing to do with interest rate.
So proper-T, please stop trying to smoke us with all you nonsensical cut and paste lah.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/ppi_zpsdad31159.jpg
Can you really rely on somebody's assertations or statements about holding power when they think that people who pay for properties fully with CASH will be included in loan or borrower data?
In the table, they are using average MI/ Average income.
So my question is consider the massive price gap of landed property and buyer profile for landed property in Singapore, where one end of the spectrum could be a billionaire buying his 3 or 4th investment GCB property costing $20-30m each and bought it with cash, while on the other end could be a average income salary man buying a LH terrace houses that cost <1.5m with 80% loan.
So if 20% of the landed property buyers have an annual income of say >$2m per year and bought their property with minimal or zero loan, will that give you a false impression that most landed owners are making $22k income per month and their average loan about is 1.9m?
Your question already shows that you read but you don't even understand the data or how it is collated. Firstly, if a person bought it with cash, it wouldn't even be captured in the data as it only tracks BORROWERS.
Can you really rely on somebody's assertions or statements at all when they resort to crude rhetoric, are apparently a visitor of some dubious forum or implicate family members in posts?
wahlao, every week got new cooling measures rumour? Is MAS becoming a slut?
I was hoping for some sammyboy type of information. so disappointed.
Having said that, may I know why are you so eager to sell our FH land to NC? Self interest? Or are you hoping that your daughter will end up in a Ferrari driven by NC?
this is as good as saying that you will let your daughters sleep with any millionaires because there is a good chance that they will marry your daughters and then give birth to millionaire babies.
When Singapore import Chinese tennis players, we were talking about long term, and yes they came, they stayed, they made their money, they got screwed, they gave birth and they left.
Dont need to read all the cut and paste paraphrasing nonsense which are meant to conceal distorted information.
when interest rate goes up, landed property will be the first to get hit due to the large loan quantum and low yield.
To all wondering about loan quantum and debt service capability of each segment of borrowers, read this from loanguru.....very interesting write-up based on actual data as at 3Q 2012. Leave it to readers here to draw their own conclusions.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html
any idea where they get the data from?
any idea where they get the data from?
My guess is from the credit bureau of singapore as well as MAS statistics. Just drop them an email if you want to know for sure.
Great that some people are actually reading through the link and digesting/forming their own conclusion rather than paying heed to the rant and raves of some people who not only constantly stumble and trip on their own statements but don't even have any solid facts to back it up other than a chart that they themselves cannot interpret properly.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-1.png
This only apply after CM7.
In Jun 2006, 5% down DPS no need to apply for loan. So sad, I should have brought 4 Southbank 2 Bedroom instead of one.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-1.png
This only apply after CM7.
In Jun 2006, 5% down DPS no need to apply for loan. So sad, I should have brought 4 Southbank 2 Bedroom instead of one.
yep..the good ol' days
To all wondering about loan quantum and debt service capability of each segment of borrowers, read this from loanguru.....very interesting write-up based on actual data as at 3Q 2012. Leave it to readers here to draw their own conclusions.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-3.png
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-1.png
usually there are more people in a landed vs in a nonlandes. hence the so called household income is higher (more working adults, and more than 1 family under one roof)). for non landed, household income is bythe working couple (owner). so is flawed.
usually there are more people in a landed vs in a nonlandes. hence the so called household income is higher (more working adults, and more than 1 family under one roof)). for non landed, household income is bythe working couple (owner). so is flawed.
From what I understand of the loan assessment process, the debt service capability is based on income of the borrower(s) which are named in the loan documentation and legally bound to service the loan and not who is staying in the property.
When you take a loan, does the loan officer ask every single member of your household what their income is?
From what I understand of the loan assessment process, the debt service capability is based on income of the borrower(s) which are named in the loan documentation and legally bound to service the loan and not who is staying in the property.
When you take a loan, does the loan officer ask every single member of your household what their income is?
the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?
the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?
Read the article in full. Link in post 179.. Excerpt below:
One of the methods used by banks to measure the ratio of total liabilities over income is the Debt Servicing Ratio (DSR). For example, if a new property purchase results in a monthly instalment of S$2,703 and the combined income of the borrower is S$7,950 per month, the resulting DSR is 34 percent, meaning the DSR is manageable and the borrower will not have a hard time servicing the loan.
the household income column is from dept of stats or from loan applicant?
Dont read too much into the pointless article because it doesnt tell you the complete picture about the reality.
Here are some table i got from department of statistic.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/483/montlyincomeperhousehol.jpg
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3567/averagehouseholdincome.jpg
I see, but i am not convinced on the income column for those staying in non landed, esp. condo. fresh uni grad couple would draw 6-7k per month ccombined gross, not yet add bonus.
see below survey:
http://www.salary.sg/2012/benchmark-your-household-income-2012/
Do you also know that the average household living in 5-room and executive HDB flats makes $10,160 a month? And that those living in condos and private apartments earn an average income of $18,060 a month? Landed property dwellers make the most – at $24,039 per month on average.
Dont read too much into the pointless article because it doesnt tell you the complete picture about the reality.
Here are some table i got from department of statistic.
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/483/montlyincomeperhousehol.jpg
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3567/averagehouseholdincome.jpg
Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.
Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.
Why are you comparing household income from national statistics with the income garnered from loan statistics? Is it a must that all residents in a condo household can only buy a condo? Why can't they buy a landed?
The article just shows that landed buyers have a lower loan instalment to their income ratio compared to condo buyers. It doesn't show what household they come from. If you are trying to draw a correlation between the income stated in that article vs what is the household income in the national statistics, then I am afraid you will continue to be in a confused state.
Exactly!! the income column doesnt make sense and has a hidden agenda.
obviously landed owner will have more dependents living with them as compare to condo owners, hence it is not surprising that condo have got higher monthly income per member than landed
Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.
Fresh graduate with public sector starting salary $3000-3500. It is possible. :D
I see, but i am not convinced on the income column for those staying in non landed, esp. condo. fresh uni grad couple would draw 6-7k per month ccombined gross, not yet add bonus.
see below survey:
http://www.salary.sg/2012/benchmark-your-household-income-2012/
Do you also know that the average household living in 5-room and executive HDB flats makes $10,160 a month? And that those living in condos and private apartments earn an average income of $18,060 a month? Landed property dwellers make the most – at $24,039 per month on average.
Why are you comparing household income from national statistics with the income garnered from loan statistics? Is it a must that all residents in a condo household can only buy a condo? Why can't they buy a landed?
The article just shows that landed buyers have a lower loan instalment to their income ratio compared to condo buyers. It doesn't show what household they come from. If you are trying to draw a correlation between the income stated in that article vs what is the household income in the national statistics, then I am afraid you will continue to be in a confused state.
Because household income is more important than loan statistic. Although the property is under say husband's name, that doenst mean that his wife income doesnt not go into paying for household living expenses or mortgage.
And although landed owner has got higher monthly income, that doesnt mean that he or she has got more disposable income because he might have many dependents freeloading on his salary.
What makes you think in this manner? It varies from family to family.
obviously landed owner will have more dependents living with them as compare to condo owners, hence it is not surprising that condo have got higher monthly income per member than landed
Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.
Because household income is more important than loan statistic. Although the property is under say husband's name, that doenst mean that his wife income doesnt not go into paying for household living expenses or mortgage.
And although landed owner has got higher monthly income, that doesnt mean that he or she has got more disposable income because he might have many dependents freeloading on his salary.
The point of the discussion stems from your statement that the landed buyers are overleveraged and to 'watch out' if/when interest rates rise.
Can you please enlighten all here how you are justifying your statement above based on household income statistics alone since you are of the view that it is more important?
Which is more important in the context of what is being discussed here? household income? or in the case of the article, the debt service capability of landed/condo buyers?
What makes you think in this manner? It varies from family to family.
that is what the statistic shows.
Average household income of landed = $24,000
Average income per member living in landed = $5900
Average household income of condo = $18,000
Average income per member living in condo = $6500
Anyway loanguru is selling mortgage, so just read it with a spoonful of salt.
If you were selling mortgage, wouldn't you try to please your largest segment of customers? Last I checked, condo buyers had the largest aggregate loan volume. It seems the only one whose statements should be taken with a mega dose of salt is the one trying to discredit the article itself.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-3.png
The point of the discussion stems from your statement that the landed buyers are overleveraged and to 'watch out' if/when interest rates rise.
Can you please enlighten all here how you are justifying your statement above based on household income statistics alone since you are of the view that it is more important?
Which is more important in the context of what is being discussed here? household income? or in the case of the article, the debt service capability of landed/condo buyers?
In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.
If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.
If you were selling mortgage, wouldn't you try to please your largest segment of customers? Last I checked, condo buyers had the largest aggregate loan volume. It seems the only one whose statements should be taken with a mega dose of salt is the one trying to discredit the article itself.
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-3.png
This chart is meaningless to our discussion here. please stop posting it.
Those who think the landed property owners has got more holding power should read these tables taken from Department of Statistic.
These are hard facts numbers taken from stat board, nothing here is being sugar coated or misrepresented.
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3567/averagehouseholdincome.jpg
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/483/montlyincomeperhousehol.jpg
In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.
If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.
You are obviously still quite confused trying to correlate and intermix household income with loan data.
How do you know that people living in condos have not bought landed and vice versa?
When a bank makes a loan they don't call on the entire household to service a loan, they rely on the borrowers named in the loan documentation. For all we know one borrower may be living in a condo and another may be living in a landed.
How relevant is your household income scenario now?
average landed owner got more dependents...average household income for condo about 18K...
what nonsense is this?? hehehe....this is funny...and crazy assumptions.
let me also put in some assumptions.
what is selling in high volume? - Condo
what is one of the purpose of CM7? - to prevent over leveraging
so, which segments of owner tend to over leverage which in turn, garmen try to avoid bubble with CM7? isnt this obvious?
this is also assumption...:)
You are obviously still quite confused trying to correlate and intermix household income with loan data.
How do you know that people living in condos have not bought landed and vice versa?
When a bank makes a loan they don't call on the entire household to service a loan, they rely on the borrowers named in the loan documentation. For all we know one borrower may be living in a condo and another may be living in a landed.
How relevant is your household income scenario now?
I can understand your frustration and disappointment that I have busted your loanguru article with some cold hard facts taken from department of statistic, so I am not surprise that you are now coming out with lot of pointless questions.
For all we know, you might just be a freeloader living in landed property.
average landed owner got more dependents...average household income for condo about 18K...
what nonsense is this?? hehehe....this is funny...and crazy assumptions.
let me also put in some assumptions.
what is selling in high volume? - Condo
what is one of the purpose of CM7? - to prevent over leveraging
so, which segments of owner tend to over leverage which in turn, garmen try to avoid bubble with CM7? isnt this obvious?
this is also assumption...:)
These are FACTS taken from department of statistic. One cant simply dispute facts with silly assumption for sure.
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/Publications/publication_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/pp-s19.pdf
In the same loanguru table you quoted, the average loan size of landed property is 1.89m, while condo is 0.94m.
If we factor in the average household income of $18,000 for condo and $24,000 for landed, its pretty clear which segment of the market is over leveraged.
What is the average price of a landed? Easily 3.8? Double the average loan amount?
Similarly, what is the average price of a PC? Any one has the figures...
Before we jump to the conclusion on who is over leveraged based on income alone...
I can understand your frustration and disappointment that I have busted your loanguru article with some cold hard facts taken from department of statistic, so I am not surprise that you are now coming out with lot of pointless questions.
For all we know, you might just be a freeloader living in landed property.
Please enlighten readers here how you have 'busted' the article?
All you have shown is just how confused you are trying to match average national household income against actual loan statistics and income levels of borrowers.
Not surprising coming from someone who cannot even interpret their own chart.
Please enlighten readers here how you have 'busted' the article?
All you have shown is just how confused you are trying to match household income against actual loan statistics and income levels of borrowers.
Not surprising coming from someone who cannot even interpret their own chart.
before we go into that, are you a freeloader living in landed property?
What is the average price of a landed? Easily 3.8? Double the average loan amount?
Similarly, what is the average price of a PC? Any one has the figures...
Before we jump to the conclusion on who is over leveraged based on income alone...
it doesnt matter really. when you are late in your mortgage payment, the bank will still have the right to force you to sell your property.
before we go into that, are you a freeloader living in landed property?
Spoken like a defeated individual who has nothing more substantial to offer other than a personal taunt.
Next you will probably bring in family members....
Spoken like a defeated individual who has nothing more substantial to offer than a personal taunt.
Next you will probably bring in family members....
if asking silly question is a sign of defeat then I am sure you will be rank right at the top of loser list.
By evading my question, I would presume you are a freeloader living in landed property. Perhaps that explain why average income of household member living in landed property is lower than condo.
And back to you question. May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan? And is HDB or URA wrong to use household income to determine the eligibility for buying subsidized flats and EC?
if asking silly question is a sign of defeat then I am sure you will be rank right at the top of loser list.
By evading my question, I would presume you are a freeloader living in landed property. Perhaps that explain why average income of household member living in landed property is lower than condo.
And back to you question. May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan? And is HDB or URA wrong to use household income to determine the eligibility for buying subsidized flats and EC?
Looks like someone just admitted that he asked a silly question.
There you go being confused again. We are talking about the loan liability of condo and landed buyers and their capability in servicing the debt not HDB or ECs. Eligibility to buy is a world of difference from the quantum of loan you are able to receive or service.
When you approach a bank for a loan to buy a condo or landed, do they check the average household income based on your current residence and approve your loan based on that statistic?
aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.
let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?
aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.
let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?
Thanks for trying....good luck on talking sense into him. Many have tried yet he still insist on terrorising this forum and even bring family members into it.
Like I pointed out when I posted that article, I leave it to readers to draw their own conclusions. As the article clearly shows, condo buyers form the largest proportion of borrowers in terms of collective loan quantum so as to what self serving purpose Loanguru (who are selling loans) could possibly have in showing that the debt servicing capability of landed buyers is stronger than condo buyers, I leave it to readers here to judge their objectivity.
aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother propert-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest.
let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?
unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.
If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)
And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.
Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.
unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.
If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)
And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.
Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.
Perhaps you would like to compare the number of times the article has appeared compared to the number of times you have blatantly displayed your ppi chart which by the way, you are still verbally harping about in your post above?
Looks like someone just admitted that he asked a silly question.
There you go being confused again. We are talking about the loan liability of condo and landed buyers and their capability in servicing the debt not HDB or ECs. Eligibility to buy is a world of difference from the quantum of loan you are able to receive or service.
When you approach a bank for a loan to buy a condo or landed, do they check the average household income based on your current residence and approve your loan based on that statistic?
What I have highlighted in RED is an example of the many silly questions that I have encountered in this forum.
The one in Blue is one of the many nonsensical theories which I have read so many time in this forum.
Perhaps as a freeloader, you have never actually fill in a mortgage application form and that somehow explain why you are not aware that banks always ask you about the number of dependents and age in the application form, just like they ask you about your other financial commitments.
princess_morbucks
31-03-13, 00:03
I can't believe that some of you men can be so petty.
I thought it was a woman thing to pick on one another.
From this forum, I learn that some men are also like women.
It is so difficult to follow what you guys are trying to put forward and I have given up on it.
I wish you could present facts in a factual manner and quote sources to substantiate them instead of insulting and bickering.
We are here to learn from one another.
What I have highlighted in RED is an example of the many silly questions that I have encountered in this forum.
The one in Blue is one of the many nonsensical theories which I have read so many time in this forum.
Perhaps as a freeloader, you have never actually fill in a mortgage application form and that somehow explain why you are not aware that banks always ask you about the number of dependents and age in the application form, just like they ask you about your other financial commitments.
This is laughable from someone who just admitted that they asked a silly question. I just remembered that you may be color blind as well since you can't even interpret the ppi chart properly so be careful with your color scheme there.
Theories? Please enlighten the readers on your 'theory' of how the importance of average monthly household income to URA/HDB in ascertaining 'Eligibility to buy HDB/EC' will translate to the importance of that statistic to banks in determining the debt servicing of condo/landed buyers
Your question I quote was "May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan?"
Everyone knows the key information that loan officers ask for are the borrower's income details and documents. In all my experience, no loan officer has ever required me to disclose the income of (non-borrower) everyone else who is staying with me in the household. If household income was so important, wouldn't they have fields in the application form asking for the income of all the people staying with you?
This is laughable from someone who just admitted that they asked a silly question. I just remembered that you may be color blind as well since you can't even interpret the ppi chart properly so be careful with your color scheme there.
Theories? Please enlighten the readers on your 'theory' of how the importance of average monthly household income to URA/HDB in ascertaining 'Eligibility to buy HDB/EC' will translate to the importance of that statistic to banks in determining the debt servicing of condo/landed buyers
Your question I quote was "May I know why in your opinion, household income is not an important factor when considering mortgage loan?"
Everyone knows the key information that loan officers ask for are the borrower's income details and documents. In all my experience, no loan officer has ever required me to disclose the income of (non-borrower) everyone else who is staying with me in the household. If household income was so important, wouldn't they have fields in the application form asking for the income of all the people staying with you?
You are can choose whatever you want to believe but that doesnt give you the right to prevent others from sharing FACTS.
FACTS
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/Publicati...ure/pp-s19.pdf (http://www.singstat.gov.sg/Publications/publication_and_papers/household_income_and_expenditure/pp-s19.pdf)
Average household income of landed = $24,000
Average income per member living in landed = $5900
Average household income of condo = $18,000
Average income per member living in condo = $6500
FACTS
Average loan size of condo is 930K while landed is 1.90m.
Comparing household debt to income ratio, landed property owners are more highly geared.
FACTS
Landed property, including detached houses are not immune to crisis, and the theory about landed property owners have more holding power is only as good as a theory. In reality, they will fall like a deck of cards.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
Tsk Tsk, someone who can't come up with anything substantial to rebut my post goes running back to his chart and suddenly tries to play the persecuted role and accuses people of preventing them from posting what they label as 'facts'.
May I remind readers that here is someone who continually hounds the landed forum posting negative and derogatory remarks, and even bringing family members into his posts disregarding any counsel or opinion from other forumers.
This is someone who once declared that he is done with a thread (see link below post #21) and then continually keeps posting after that. If he is willing to subject himself to the embarrassment of going against his own word and can't even prevent himself from posting, who else can stop him?
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=17132
To allay his fears and paranoia, there is really nobody here who can prevent him from doing anything. The fact of the matter is that his claims and statements are so full of holes that ultimately, he will fall down a big one and realise his biggest fear which will be entirely of his own self-doing.
The end result, he still won't be able to afford his landed property despite spending all this time and effort to try to talk it down.
To get the full side of the story, You can read the article here based on loan statistics as at 3Q 2012 and draw your own conclusion:
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html (http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/1082/3-g...quisition.html)
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-3.png
http://blog.loanguru.com.sg/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Diagram-1.png[/quote]
90% of what you just wrote are nothing related to the subject of this thread while the other 10% are wasted on twisted numbers and interpretation that has already been rebutted many times with stats from department of statistic.
Please provide some new material is you wish to prove the landed property owners has got more holding power and that landed household doesnt have a higher debt ratio as compare to condo household.
90% of what you just wrote are nothing related to the subject of this thread while the other 10% are wasted on twisted numbers and interpretation that has already been rebutted many times with stats from department of statistic.
Please provide some new material is you wish to prove the landed property owners has got more holding power and that landed household doesnt have a higher debt ratio as compare to condo household.
Readers are smart enough to know that you haven't rebutted anything. In fact, all that they will see is someone who couldn't address major holes in their statements, ran away from the argument at post 225 and had to take refuge in a chart which they can't even interpret properly.
Someone should heed their own advice as far as new material is concerned. Would you like to enlighten readers here how many times you have posted that same old chart just in this landed forum alone.
At least some forumer appreciates the info I have posted.
aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother proper-t, he has shared a good article showing the various scenario. just that some readers dont quite like the conclusion that the blog is trying to put across, that landed people are safest compared to the rest as the blog has to choose to use a set of income info that serves their purpose. statistics is a two way sword lah. everyone are right, everyone are wrong too.
let's have healthy dose of friendly discussions ok?
Readers are smart enough to know that you haven't rebutted anything. In fact, all that they will see is someone who couldn't address major holes in their statements, ran away from the argument at post 225 and had to take refuge in a chart which they can't even interpret properly.
Someone should heed their own advice as far as new material is concerned. Would you like to enlighten readers here how many times you have posted that same old chart just in this landed forum alone.
At least some forumer appreciates the info I have posted.
There is really no need to patronize yourself because your focus should be answering those who question the validity of what you have posted as having 2 murderers in court will not make murder a lesser crime.
And like I said before, here is no such thing as REAL facts and please learn to distinguish what is facts and what is opinions.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
There is really no need to patronize yourself because your focus should be answering those who question the validity of what you have posted as having 2 murderers in court will not make murder a lesser crime.
And like I said before, here is no such thing as REAL facts and please learn to distinguish what is facts and what is opinions.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
Looks like someone is utterly confused about the thread he is posting in and totally straying off course to other threads.
Please point out in this thread where the phrase 'REAL facts' have been mentioned and what context it has been used in this thread.
You should heed the advice given by lee123:
1. Don't blame me for your intellectual inadequacies and insecurities.
2. Don't argue with me.
]aiyah good brother Ringgo, dont blame or argue with brother proper-t...
No wonder you are so bitter and angry. You should uproot yourself and goto another forum where you feel more at home and mix with forumers of the same type of character and intellectual level since you crave it so much.
I was hoping for some sammyboy type of information. so disappointed
Aiyo bro, why are u still going in circle?? What is the point that u are trying to make after almost 20over pgs? Is it that u are trying to say there are many poorer ppl living in landed than condo?? Assuming each household own one landed that means we have 70k households in landed and why u so worry about these small group of pplcompared to the 1mil over households we have here? Don't worry for them la, these group of ppl got their way that's why they stay in landed. If garmen worry about them then out of the 7 CM they could have already target on these ppl being over leveraging...worry not, move on, the thread is about landed market moving forward....have a constructive discussion. No need to say who good or bad, ppl got eye, don't worry we are all smart ppl. ;)
unfortunately this is not the first time that this article has appeared in this forum. in the other thread, I have already questioned the reliability and validity of the article because historical movement of mortgage interest rate so far does not in anyway show the landed property owners has got better holding power etc.
If you look at the URA property price index by type, you can clearly see the price of landed property are not spared during a crisis, in fact the detached housing segment suffer the the steepest correction during crisis. Perhaps, instead of saying landed property owner (at least for the detach class segment) has holding power, I think it might be more appropriate to say they have losing power (as they can afford to lose)
And now that we have compare the numbers to those from department of statistic, it is pretty obvious that the said loanguru article is clearly meant to show only one side of the story.
Whoever that wants to dispute the FACTS on from the department of statistic, it is best that they use facts to do so instead of silly questioning and reasoning.
Guys cool it. Obviously those with vested interests will defend their decision, be them staying in landed or condo. Human nature. As to who is correct, time will tell. :cheers4:
Aiyo bro, why are u still going in circle?? What is the point that u are trying to make after almost 20over pgs? Is it that u are trying to say there are many poorer ppl living in landed than condo?? Assuming each household own one landed that means we have 70k households in landed and why u so worry about these small group of pplcompared to the 1mil over households we have here? Don't worry for them la, these group of ppl got their way that's why they stay in landed. If garmen worry about them then out of the 7 CM they could have already target on these ppl being over leveraging...worry not, move on, the thread is about landed market moving forward....have a constructive discussion. No need to say who good or bad, ppl got eye, don't worry we are all smart ppl. ;)
1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?
2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.
3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?
4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?
Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high household income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs.
1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?
2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.
3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?
4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?
Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs. I still believe that one can buy a landed but not too large and yet still got spare cash to buy condos or invest in other instruments.
1) Based on department of statistic figure on household income do you agree that landed property owner more dependents living with them as compared to condo owners?
2) Based on department of statistic figures and average home loan from Q32012, do you agree that landed owner are more leveraged in their mortgage as compared to condo owners.
3) If (2) is a yes, would you agree that when interest rate rises, landed owners will be the worst hit because of the huge loan quantum?
4) If (1) is yes, would you agree that during economic crisis, landed segment are most vulnerable?
Most people will be affected in a downturn whether you own a landed or condo unless one has a recession proof jobs. The high income earners may get pay freeze and no bonus may still be better than an average income earners if both but must qualify that the high household income earners will be worst off when they lose their jobs. I still believe that one can buy a landed but not too large and yet still got spare cash to buy condos or invest in other instruments.
Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)
Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
you are very persistent...using your meaningless chart. let me tell you this, not sure if you are too young who have not experience this kind correction or what. If the correction comes, it will be wide spread, will not be for one segment! whoever you might think leverage more is irrelevant because what is important is who's job is more stable and who's still having income. Can you find this in any statistic that you have shown?? enough for you to search around?? :D
[QUOTE=Ringo33]Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)
Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.
Thats something which has been spoken for and validated many time by historical price trend from the past, however there are still people who choose to believe that this time around it is different because Singapore land is limited etc (like land was not limited in Singapore is the past 20-30 years)
Look at the price index, it is pretty clear that landed property prices is in for some correction soon. With ABSD, SSD, LTV restiction, rising interest rate, etc, investors will start to pull money out from landed property and put them into some other regional property market.
The same old chart again.
1. Can you please tell the readers here why you only start your chart from Q1 97 and not the entire ppi chart from 1986 onwards?
Are you trying to hide something?
Let me enlighten readers here what he is trying to hide. You can read it all here.
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/property-cycles/singapore-property-cycle-1986-to-1998/
The entire cycle from trough to peak to trough lasted from Q2 1986 to Q4 1998.
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/charts/Singapore-Property-Price-Index-1986Q2-1998Q4-Property-Type.jpg
The run up in landed prices took 10 years from Q2 1986 to Q2 1996. The percentage change was 475% from trough to peak for the landed index.
If you believe what he is saying that history will repeat itself, then we have a long way to go before the landed crash will happen.
Why? Read it here
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/property-cycles/singapore-property-cycle-2009-to-Present/
We are only about three years into our current cycle which started in Q2 2009 and the landed index has only gone up 86% from the last trough. This is way below the 475% increase during the 86 run.
If he is implying that history will repeat itself, then the climb in landed index prices is only in its infancy.
2. He also keeps saying that things have not changed since the crash in 1998/99.
Well, the difference between 98/99 was that the LTVs for housing loans did not go to as low of 20%/40% (for 3rd housing loan onwards) and they did not have SSDs back then as well. With such measures in place, what do you think the risk profile of borrowers in the 1980s will be like compared to present day?
I leave it to the readers here to draw their own conclusion. As long as he keeps posting that chart, it just means that he is not showing you the whole picture.
you are very persistent...using your meaningless chart. let me tell you this, not sure if you are too young who have not experience this kind correction or what. If the correction comes, it will be wide spread, will not be for one segment! whoever you might think leverage more is irrelevant because what is important is who's job is more stable and who's still having income. Can you find this in any statistic that you have shown?? enough for you to search around?? :D .
the chart is only useful for people who looks into the details, it will be meaningless for those who just look at its shapes and colors.
In buying property, there is always the rule of thumb of not using more than 30-40% of your salary to service your mortgage loan and one must always set aside enough saving and CPF to continue paying for the mortgage for at least 18 months in case one goes out of job.
What I highlighted above will go into one of the top 5 BS that I have come across in this forum. Perhaps some over leveraged landed owner here are so desperate that they need to say something stupid to comfort themselves.
The same old chart again.
1. Can you please tell the readers here why you only start your chart from Q1 97 and not the entire ppi chart from 1986 onwards?
Are you trying to hide something?
Let me enlighten readers here what he is trying to hide. You can read it all here.
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/property-cycles/singapore-property-cycle-1986-to-1998/
The entire cycle from trough to peak to trough lasted from Q2 1986 to Q4 1998.
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/charts/Singapore-Property-Price-Index-1986Q2-1998Q4-Property-Type.jpg
The run up in landed prices took 10 years from Q2 1986 to Q2 1996. The percentage change was 475% from trough to peak for the landed index.
If you believe what he is saying that history will repeat itself, then we have a long way to go before the landed crash will happen.
Why? Read it here
http://www.singaporepropertycycle.com.sg/property-cycles/singapore-property-cycle-2009-to-Present/
We are only about three years into our current cycle which started in Q2 2009 and the landed index has only gone up 86% from the last trough. This is way below the 475% increase during the 86 run.
If he is implying that history will repeat itself, then the climb in landed index prices is only in its infancy.
2. He also keeps saying that things have not changed since the crash in 1998/99.
Well, the difference between 98/99 was that the LTVs for housing loans did not go to as low of 20%/40% (for 3rd housing loan onwards) and they did not have SSDs back then as well. With such measures in place, what do you think the risk profile of borrowers in the 1980s will be like compared to present day?
I leave it to the readers here to draw their own conclusion. As long as he keeps posting that chart, it just means that he is not showing you the whole picture.
this chart is provided by URA, not created by me. So please direct your question to KBW if you are not happy.
And please spare us with your nonsensical theory about economic theory and property cycles.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
this chart is provided by URA, not created by me. So please direct your question to KBW if you are not happy.
And please spare us with your nonsensical theory about economic theory and property cycles.
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
Someone once made this statement below
One will first need to study our history in order to foresee what will happen in future
So according to your chart and URA statistics, which part of the cycle do you think landed prices are at now according to historical trends and when do you think it will crash since you are such a great advocate of studying history to forsee the future?
hahaha...as i said, you are very persistent. persistently silly...since u use the word stupid and i dont think u are worth any respect. the chart besides color and shapes, all show consistently similar up and down trend over cycles...isn't this what i mentioned that if correction comes, it will be widespread and not only for any particular segment?
did the chart shows u who still have income when recession comes? did u go check whether bankruptcy cases are higher for landed owners when recession comes??
stupid one is you yourselves. the chart is from URA, correct, but you are assuming and imagining till you keep telling yourselves that you are rite even so many ppl tell u to stop your nonsense.
enough said...:)
the chart is only useful for people who looks into the details, it will be meaningless for those who just look at its shapes and colors.
In buying property, there is always the rule of thumb of not using more than 30-40% of your salary to service your mortgage loan and one must always set aside enough saving and CPF to continue paying for the mortgage for at least 18 months in case one goes out of job.
What I highlighted above will go into one of the top 5 BS that I have come across in this forum. Perhaps some over leveraged landed owner here are so desperate that they need to say something stupid to comfort themselves.
bro, no need to discuss anymore because it is no longer constructive. his objective is quite clear and silly. no point la...
let me make this statement, as long as condo price keep stable and moving up slowly, so will be the landed pricing. there is always a baseline for each category and it form on top of one another. HDB, Exce Condo, Condo, Landed...:2cents:
Someone once made this statement below
So according to your chart and URA statistics, which part of the cycle do you think landed prices are at now according to historical trends and when do you think it will crash since you are such a great advocate of studying history to forsee the future?
hahaha...as i said, you are very persistent. persistently silly...since u use the word stupid and i dont think u are worth any respect. the chart besides color and shapes, all show consistently similar up and down trend over cycles...isn't this what i mentioned that if correction comes, it will be widespread and not only for any particular segment?
did the chart shows u who still have income when recession comes? did u go check whether bankruptcy cases are higher for landed owners when recession comes??
stupid one is you yourselves. the chart is from URA, correct, but you are assuming and imagining till you keep telling yourselves that you are rite even so many ppl tell u to stop your nonsense.
enough said...:)
this post is 100% rubbish..enuf said...
bro, no need to discuss anymore because it is no longer constructive. his objective is quite clear and silly. no point la...
let me make this statement, as long as condo price keep stable and moving up slowly, so will be the landed pricing. there is always a baseline for each category and it form on top of one another. HDB, Exce Condo, Condo, Landed...:2cents:
Its ok lah. The more he post, the more that readers here will be aware of his motives and type of character. Already he has zero credibility. The way he stumbles and trip over his own statements will just provide more entertainment to the readers here.
princess_morbucks
07-08-13, 13:30
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/2013/8/36383/only-6-pr-applications-allowed-for-landed-homes-in
Aug 6, 2013
The number of permanent residents (PRs) granted approval to buy landed homes in mainland Singapore has dropped significantly on the back of government efforts to set aside more of these types of properties for Singaporeans, media reports said.
The government further tightened the eligibility criteria for PRs in 2011 to ensure that Singapore citizens receive priority for such homes.
According to the Singapore Land Authority (SLA), the number of approvals granted to PRs looking to purchase landed homes fell from 145 in 2010 to 117 in 2011 and to just 31 last year.
In fact, only six applications were approved during the first half of 2013.
Back in October 2011, Law Minister K Shanmugam revealed that the number of approvals given to PRs buying landed homes would decline by over 50 percent to not more than 50 approvals each year.
Not surprising given the increase in new citizens and tightening of PRs
Singapore gets 20,000 new citizens
The Straits Times February 27, 2013
Singapore granted its highest number of citizenships last year in more than a decade, even as it has tightened its intake of permanent residents (PRs) in recent years.
In all, 20,693 people became Singaporeans last year, Prime Minister's Office Minister Grace Fu revealed yesterday in Parliament.
This is higher than the previous year's 15,777 and follows an up-trend in the number of new citizens.
Between 1987 and 2006, about 8,200 people were granted citizenship papers a year. From 2007 to 2011, that number grew to 18,500 a year, according to statistics previously released by the National Population and Talent Division (NPTD).
An NPTD spokesman told The Straits Times yesterday that the number of citizenships granted each year fluctuates depending on factors such as the number and quality of applicants.
Last year's successful applications were within the 15,000 to 25,000 range it expects to grant yearly, she said.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/property-management-news/2013/8/36383/only-6-pr-applications-allowed-for-landed-homes-in
Aug 6, 2013
The number of permanent residents (PRs) granted approval to buy landed homes in mainland Singapore has dropped significantly on the back of government efforts to set aside more of these types of properties for Singaporeans, media reports said.
The government further tightened the eligibility criteria for PRs in 2011 to ensure that Singapore citizens receive priority for such homes.
According to the Singapore Land Authority (SLA), the number of approvals granted to PRs looking to purchase landed homes fell from 145 in 2010 to 117 in 2011 and to just 31 last year.
In fact, only six applications were approved during the first half of 2013.
Back in October 2011, Law Minister K Shanmugam revealed that the number of approvals given to PRs buying landed homes would decline by over 50 percent to not more than 50 approvals each year.
The only way forward is DOWN DOWN DOWN.
The only way forward is DOWN DOWN DOWN.
According to the Singapore Land Authority (SLA), the number of approvals granted to PRs looking to purchase landed homes fell from 145 in 2010 to 117 in 2011 and to just 31 last year.
PR approvals have been dropping since 2010, can you tell readers here since you have your famous chart how the landed segment fared since 2010 despite the no. of PR approvals dropping since 2010?
PR approvals was only 31 last year and fell to 6 as of first half of this yr.
Can you tell readers here what percentage of the total stock of landed is 31?
Assuming another 6 are granted for 2nd half of this year which means that there will be only be 19 less PRs being granted approval compared to last year,
What percentage is 19 over the total stock of landed?
Can you explain how 19 less PR approvals translates to your 'DOWN DOWN DOWN' statement above when the number of new citizens increased by around 5000 last year?
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