View Full Version : I have a feeling of being cheated
Can anyone enlighten me so that I can set my mind in peace.
Example 1:
Bought $10k unit trust from the banker and he promised to charge me $350 for the sales charge and when received the confirmation notice from the bank, it was indeed $350 sales charge.:)
Calc:
$10,000 x 5% = $500 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.5%) = $150 ($10,000 x 1.5%)
= $350 (sales charge after discount)
Example2:
Bought $12k unit trust from another banker and he promised to charge me $320 for the sales charge but when received the confirmation notice from the bank, the sales charge was $384. :(
Calc:
$12,000 x 5% = $600 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.8%) = $216 ($12,000 x 1.8%)
= $384 (sales charge after discount)
Is that how the bank calculates the sales charge? If that's the case, the banker shouldn't tell the customer that the sales charge is $320 only, very misleading for new investors.
either way u will feel cheated. Coz by from poems are lower. why go buy from banks.
also why unit trust not ETF? cost even more lower.
ikan bilis
17-01-13, 16:39
lucky me never buy unit trust.... buying the time pay extra 5%,... selling the time pay another extra 5%.... like that i will feel even more cheated and prefer to pay govt 10% absd for 3rd property liow... :D ;)
buttercarp
17-01-13, 16:42
Hi iris.... u can buy online leh.....
Commission is less.
http://mycpf.cpf.gov.sg/NR/rdonlyres/E35F7F0E-1944-4F54-9C4E-5C2D17AAC616/0/BuyUT.pdf
Sis.... sorry i didnt get the full picture, but did you verify with your banker why the difference?
Anyway, i feel the difference in admin charges is rather small lah compared with your 5-figure sum worth of investment. Dont think too much and get upset over it, ok?
For all you know, your returns in time to come may well cover all these admin charges ..... :)
Unit trust is the worst investment of all. no matter what market condition, the fund mgr always win.
Sis.... sorry i didnt get the full picture, but did you verify with your banker why the difference?
Anyway, i feel the difference in admin charges is rather small lah compared with your 5-figure sum worth of investment. Dont think too much and get upset over it, ok?
For all you know, your returns in time to come may well cover all these admin charges ..... :)
actually it is matter of principle, regardless of the sum. if it is understood and agreed before, even 1 cent more is still as hidden charge. if the banker failed to explain the charges well, don't think he/she is fit for the job. sis is doing us a service by bringing this up to improve the professionalism of banking sector
Sorry to hear that. Actually you shouldn't be too concern over it, wait till you hear the truth - the truth is, the Fund charge you much more than what the banker charge you, and do that every year. You will end up the biggest loser. So heed my advice, avoid UTs.
Can anyone enlighten me so that I can set my mind in peace.
Example 1:
Bought $10k unit trust from the banker and he promised to charge me $350 for the sales charge and when received the confirmation notice from the bank, it was indeed $350 sales charge.:)
Calc:
$10,000 x 5% = $500 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.5%) = $150 ($10,000 x 1.5%)
= $350 (sales charge after discount)
Example2:
Bought $12k unit trust from another banker and he promised to charge me $320 for the sales charge but when received the confirmation notice from the bank, the sales charge was $384. :(
Calc:
$12,000 x 5% = $600 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.8%) = $216 ($12,000 x 1.8%)
= $384 (sales charge after discount)
Is that how the bank calculates the sales charge? If that's the case, the banker shouldn't tell the customer that the sales charge is $320 only, very misleading for new investors.
buttercarp
17-01-13, 20:07
Sorry to hear that. Actually you shouldn't be too concern over it, wait till you hear the truth - the truth is, the Fund charge you much more than what the banker charge you, and do that every year. You will end up the biggest loser. So heed my advice, avoid UTs.
Really?
That bad?
Then why do people still invest in UT?
Unit Trusts, as the name implies, are only for 2 groups of people:
1) People who are not investment saavy.
2) People who don't have the resources and hence have to buy in small "units".
Really?
That bad?
Then why do people still invest in UT?
lucky me never buy unit trust.... buying the time pay extra 5%,... selling the time pay another extra 5%.... like that i will feel even more cheated and prefer to pay govt 10% absd for 3rd property liow... :D ;)
This fund that I bought only need to pay sales charge when buying, no sales charge when selling.
actually it is matter of principle, regardless of the sum. if it is understood and agreed before, even 1 cent more is still as hidden charge. if the banker failed to explain the charges well, don't think he/she is fit for the job. sis is doing us a service by bringing this up to improve the professionalism of banking sector .
Ya, it is a matter of principle. At least the banker should make clear to me.
I called him up to clarify but never get the satisfactory answer. I told him that at least he should make clear to me so that I'm aware of it.
Really?
That bad?
Then why do people still invest in UT?
My friend invested S$5000 in Schrode Asian growth Fund in PEAK PERIOD 1996
[email protected]. She did not monitor at all she is very busy with her biz. In 2007 (11 years later) , she came to know that her $5000 investment has become >$20k. She just sold b4 the Lehman crisis.
The fund has almost recovered from it pre lehman price. This fund has gone through the up & down , the worst Asia financial crisis, Sep11 , Iraq war .Sar , Lehman crisis etc etc. Yet it manage to perform 9% return since it was launched in 1991 till 2012.
So unit trust has it good side of investment. But pls buy online as the sale charge is 0.5% to 1%. Another good fund is S'pore managed fund by Prudential & Aberdeen pacific fund.
rdgs,
Vic
Sorry to hear that. Actually you shouldn't be too concern over it, wait till you hear the truth - the truth is, the Fund charge you much more than what the banker charge you, and do that every year. You will end up the biggest loser. So heed my advice, avoid UTs.
But I do make some money from the fund that I bought within 1 yr (about 6.7%) after offseting the sales charge.
My friend invested S$5000 in Schrode Asian growth Fund in PEAK PERIOD 1996
[email protected]. She did not monitor at all she is very busy with her biz. In 2007 (11 years later) , she came to know that her $5000 investment has become >$20k. She just sold b4 the Lehman crisis.
The fund has almost recovered from it pre lehman price. This fund has gone through the up & down , the worst Asia financial crisis, Sep11 , Iraq war .Sar , Lehman crisis etc etc. Yet it manage to perform 9% return since it was launched in 1991 till 2012.
So unit trust has it good side of investment. But pls buy online as the sale charge is 0.5% to 1%. Another good fund is S'pore managed fund by Prudential & Aberdeen pacific fund.
rdgs,
Vic
Thank you for your tips. Your friend is very lucky to sell before the Lehman crisis. Never buy funds online before. Most of the time, is recommended by the banker.
Another banker recommended me the Schroder Asian Income SGD Class fund, dividend 8%, don't know good or not? Any advise? This fund was launched on 01/09/2011.
Thank you for your tips. Your friend is very lucky to sell before the Lehman crisis. Never buy funds online before. Most of the time, is recommended by the banker.
Another banker recommended me the Schroder Asian Income SGD Class fund, dividend 8%, don't know good or not? Any advise? This fund was launched on 01/09/2011.
Based on past year dividend history, the yield is about 5.5-6% on current price.
I often use this website for info.
http://www.fundsupermart.com/main/home/index.svdo
Let's say it is this way, funds invest into equities. Management fees could be as high as 3%, not including trading fees etc (which previously was reported they can receive kick back etc). So, actual costs of investing in UTs vs buying the stocks on your own could be as high as 4-5%, excluding the sales charges. And there may also be another bank custodian fees of 1%, so if the fund pay you 6.7%, and assuming instead of buying fund you buy directly, your return could be 6.7% +3% (sales charge) + 5% (all other related costs) = 14.7% ! :scared-1:
But I do make some money from the fund that I bought within 1 yr (about 6.7%) after offseting the sales charge.
Thank you for your tips. Your friend is very lucky to sell before the Lehman crisis. Never buy funds online before. Most of the time, is recommended by the banker.
Another banker recommended me the Schroder Asian Income SGD Class fund, dividend 8%, don't know good or not? Any advise? This fund was launched on 01/09/2011.
This fund is a mixture of high yield bond + dividend stock. It has performed well in a low interest rate enviroment. In fact, all bond fund & dividend fund have performed very well due to low interest rate envionment.
If U are a very patient investor. There will be a big correction every 1-2 times very year & big crashes every few years. Buy when there is fear & the "FEAR price" is to protect your downside . It is to reduce losses in the case of a decline in the value of your unit trust or stock.
My friend lost >$1m investing herself. Her mistakes is just like us. Buy when there is optimism & sell when there is fear. Buy base on HOPE , GREED , HEARSAY, remour & speculative stock etc. I hv learnt from my mistakes.
PATIENCE = Profit. Say is easy. To execute is not easy. So I leave to you how to manage your emotional trading behaviour.
rdgs,
Vic
I bought unit trust through my agent too and that's because I am too lazy to do research and monitor. Every time I met him, he told me he had upgraded his car to some exotic brand, bought more properties and set up more businesses. I guess he is doing externally well. I stopped giving him angbao too and withdrew my profits before Lehman crisis.
buttercarp
18-01-13, 07:35
My friend invested S$5000 in Schrode Asian growth Fund in PEAK PERIOD 1996
[email protected]. She did not monitor at all she is very busy with her biz. In 2007 (11 years later) , she came to know that her $5000 investment has become >$20k. She just sold b4 the Lehman crisis.
The fund has almost recovered from it pre lehman price. This fund has gone through the up & down , the worst Asia financial crisis, Sep11 , Iraq war .Sar , Lehman crisis etc etc. Yet it manage to perform 9% return since it was launched in 1991 till 2012.
So unit trust has it good side of investment. But pls buy online as the sale charge is 0.5% to 1%. Another good fund is S'pore managed fund by Prudential & Aberdeen pacific fund.
rdgs,
Vic
Thanks vic for enlightening me :) !
I have unit trusts with Prudential.
I really don't have any idea as it was bought as an ILP many years ago.
Yes, according to my hubby who bought this product for me, it is doing well.
Banks are paranoid about customer complaints these days (regulator scrutinizes quite hard on this), so try it if you have some evidence of mis-selling/representing etc. that is, tell them you want to file a formal complain - not just giving their poor call centre staff a grief of your bad experience.
UT works well for me too, and you can try to negotiate upfront sales and ongoing charges with your brokers. Bankers are less compromising unless you are at least affluent, but then there're enough competitors who will want your business.
unit Trusts are cheats in the first place :D
Can anyone enlighten me so that I can set my mind in peace.
Example 1:
Bought $10k unit trust from the banker and he promised to charge me $350 for the sales charge and when received the confirmation notice from the bank, it was indeed $350 sales charge.:)
Calc:
$10,000 x 5% = $500 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.5%) = $150 ($10,000 x 1.5%)
= $350 (sales charge after discount)
Example2:
Bought $12k unit trust from another banker and he promised to charge me $320 for the sales charge but when received the confirmation notice from the bank, the sales charge was $384. :(
Calc:
$12,000 x 5% = $600 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.8%) = $216 ($12,000 x 1.8%)
= $384 (sales charge after discount)
Is that how the bank calculates the sales charge? If that's the case, the banker shouldn't tell the customer that the sales charge is $320 only, very misleading for new investors.
unit Trusts are cheats in the first place :D
totally agree.
earn profit, fund managers get paid bonuses
funds lose money, fund managers don't lose anything personally but still get paid
OMG, people still buy unit trust? what are they thinking?
buttercarp
18-01-13, 09:24
totally agree.
earn profit, fund managers get paid bonuses
funds lose money, fund managers don't lose anything personally but still get paid
Seems like fund manager get the best of both worlds!
Any idea how to become one :D ?
it is better to buy from fundsupermart. do some research, especially the sections on RSP - where they have a list of recommended funds which have 0% sales charge or 0.5% sales charge, which is very low. Also watch out for the section on recommended funds and recommended portfolio, where they list out 5 portfolios (from high risk to low risk) and tracks performance over many years.
although i agree that these funds do not give the best returns, it is a good option for investments in the tune of few thousands or few tens of thousands. for those who throw 6 digits a hand, then they have more exotic sources of income.
i have a portfolio of investment, and one group i just do monthly regular savings and follow their recommended portfolio, with some minor fine tuning based on personal risk and preference. the monthly regular savings is to force myself to save during ups and downs and average out. otherwise i will end up selling in panic or buying during highs.
end of each year, i will re-balance my portfolio, which consists of 50% equity, 20% commodities, and the remaining in a mix of high risk and low risk bonds.
for me, this is more of a disciplined approach to investment, and i dun mind that it may not give me the best of returns. i do not have any ILPs because i find that i get better returns myself.
I'm OK with unit trusts too. I have had them in my Special Acct and they have beaten the 4% pa interest rate of the SA. However, with the recent volatility in the markets, they have been switched into the SGD Money Market Fund which has also done quite well.
Those funds in other markets also allow you to diversify your portfolio. For example in emerging markets, commodities or whatever.
For those who keep a fairly large amount in UT and switch around between different funds to rebalance the portfolio periodically, you can consider the Navigator platform from Aviva which offers switching free of charge. There are regular fees to be paid on this for the financial advisor but you can negotiate with the FA regarding this. Some FAs can be helpful in advising when to switch by looking at the charts. This is a service which you have to pay for but if they do their job well, I don't mind paying.
It's down to personal preference.
Fundsupermart used to be good until they start charging for platform fees (or custodian fees) on top of the sales charges.
Does Aviva's Navigator charge custodian fees?
it is better to buy from fundsupermart. do some research, especially the sections on RSP - where they have a list of recommended funds which have 0% sales charge or 0.5% sales charge, which is very low. Also watch out for the section on recommended funds and recommended portfolio, where they list out 5 portfolios (from high risk to low risk) and tracks performance over many years.
although i agree that these funds do not give the best returns, it is a good option for investments in the tune of few thousands or few tens of thousands. for those who throw 6 digits a hand, then they have more exotic sources of income.
i have a portfolio of investment, and one group i just do monthly regular savings and follow their recommended portfolio, with some minor fine tuning based on personal risk and preference. the monthly regular savings is to force myself to save during ups and downs and average out. otherwise i will end up selling in panic or buying during highs.
end of each year, i will re-balance my portfolio, which consists of 50% equity, 20% commodities, and the remaining in a mix of high risk and low risk bonds.
for me, this is more of a disciplined approach to investment, and i dun mind that it may not give me the best of returns. i do not have any ILPs because i find that i get better returns myself.
Banks are paranoid about customer complaints these days (regulator scrutinizes quite hard on this), so try it if you have some evidence of mis-selling/representing etc. that is, tell them you want to file a formal complain - not just giving their poor call centre staff a grief of your bad experience.
UT works well for me too, and you can try to negotiate upfront sales and ongoing charges with your brokers. Bankers are less compromising unless you are at least affluent, but then there're enough competitors who will want your business.
Actually I called up the hotline and wanted to get an explanation from another banker for my case (it is not the sales charge difference that counts, but simply feel very unhappy) but the operator told me that she would get the banker who served me to call me back, so why not I called direct to him. Felt that this banker is not honest, wrote my risk profile as "Aggressive", which I told him that I'm not, mine only "moderate" but he said never mind. Does this matter?
Never expect my thread can be so fruitful, thought that I will just get some response as to the sales charge calc. Happy to see so many contribution about individuals experience and advice and tips from the experts, it not only benefit me but also to other forummers. :cheers4:
Fundsupermart used to be good until they start charging for platform fees (or custodian fees) on top of the sales charges.
Does Aviva's Navigator charge custodian fees?
goes for poems. dont charge platform fees and lowest sales charges
Felt that this banker is not honest, wrote my risk profile as "Aggressive", which I told him that I'm not, mine only "moderate" but he said never mind. Does this matter?
Yes it matters. If you say ypu are agressive, more likely any losses you bear urself.
Now if you say you are unsophisticated investor, no degree uneducated investor , for cases like minibonds, your compensation would be higher than sophisticated investor.
So each time, i would declare myself new to investment, no degree only diploma holder, not a risk taker etc.
Quick, change ur profile to nmoderate.
I never cut Sales charge or Agent fees.
ikan bilis
19-01-13, 19:35
"I have a feeling of being cheated"....
只被骗财 没被骗色 不幸中的大幸 !!.... :cheers4:
Felt that this banker is not honest, wrote my risk profile as "Aggressive", which I told him that I'm not, mine only "moderate" but he said never mind. Does this matter?
Yes it matters. If you say ypu are agressive, more likely any losses you bear urself.
Now if you say you are unsophisticated investor, no degree uneducated investor , for cases like minibonds, your compensation would be higher than sophisticated investor.
So each time, i would declare myself new to investment, no degree only diploma holder, not a risk taker etc.
Quick, change ur profile to moderate.
Who should I call to change my profile? My previous bankers always put me as conservative because I only bought those with principle guaranteed 5 - 15 yrs endowment plan, gradually it becomes moderate because I started to buy unit trust and this time worst, this banker puts me as aggressive.:simmering: He never gives me a chance to declare, just wrote it down for me and asked me to sign, when I saw it, I said I'm not a high risk-taker and he said never mind.
I never cut Sales charge or Agent fees.
Sorry, what does that mean?
I never cut Sales charge or Agent fees.
Comparing with the total amount involved into the transactions, what is the point to cut the sales charges or agent fees?
You will be much better off if the banker or agent can really spend more efforts for your case.
At least that is my stupid way of thinking.
Cheers!
Richard
"I have a feeling of being cheated"....
只被骗财 没被骗色 不幸中的大幸 !!.... :cheers4:
Aiya, nobody will 骗 我这个老 auntie 的色 lah, 这将会是他们恶梦的开始, hehe. :tongue4:
Comparing with the total amount involved into the transactions, what is the point to cut the sales charges or agent fees?
You will be much better off if the banker or agent can really spend more efforts for your case.
At least that is my stupid way of thinking.
Cheers!
Richard
Isn't the fund that we bought is determined by the market? When the agent sells you their products, that's it, right? When they want to earn additional sales charges, they will call you up again and asks you to sell (when the price is right) and re-invest in another fund, one of my bankers is doing that.
When this banker knows that the other banker is offering you at a lower sales charge, then he will try to match it, at least this is what this banker is doing.
Who should I call to change my profile? My previous bankers always put me as conservative because I only bought those with principle guaranteed 5 - 15 yrs endowment plan, gradually it becomes moderate because I started to buy unit trust and this time worst, this banker puts me as aggressive.:simmering: He never gives me a chance to declare, just wrote it down for me and asked me to sign, when I saw it, I said I'm not a high risk-taker and he said never mind.
Those principle guaranteed endowment plans CMI, the yields these days are so low and your $$$ are locked up for that period of time. Just buy Term insurance and invest the rest of the $$$ in other non-insurance products.
By putting your profile as aggressive, it gives him lee-way to sell you any sort of product, even the high risk ones, and then he can justify it by saying that you are aggressive investor that is why he recommended it to you and you bought.
When they want to earn additional sales charges, they will call you up again and asks you to sell (when the price is right) and re-invest in another fund, one of my bankers is doing that.
This is called churning. Would avoid such bankers.
:eek:
Aiya, nobody will 骗 我这个老 auntie 的色 lah, 这将会是他们恶梦的开始, hehe. :tongue4:
lol!! zehzeh so humorous & open :D:D:D
Isn't the fund that we bought is determined by the market? When the agent sells you their products, that's it, right? When they want to earn additional sales charges, they will call you up again and asks you to sell (when the price is right) and re-invest in another fund, one of my bankers is doing that.
When this banker knows that the other banker is offering you at a lower sales charge, then he will try to match it, at least this is what this banker is doing.
If you are so sure about the fund you are going to buy, you shouldn't use a human banker. The minimum sales charge will be 2.5%.
Use online will be 1% to 1.5%
www.poems.com.sg
www.fundsupermart.com
Thanks,
Richard
Those principle guaranteed endowment plans CMI, the yields these days are so low and your $$$ are locked up for that period of time. Just buy Term insurance and invest the rest of the $$$ in other non-insurance products.
By putting your profile as aggressive, it gives him lee-way to sell you any sort of product, even the high risk ones, and then he can justify it by saying that you are aggressive investor that is why he recommended it to you and you bought.
No wonder he wrote my profile as aggressive because when I asked him is this fund of higher risk than the rest that I bought, he said it is higher. The reason I bought is because the top equities are our big local banks + telecoms + xxxx, I trust S'pore and I trust those companies, so "pin yi pin" lor.
If you are so sure about the fund you are going to buy, you shouldn't use a human banker. The minimum sales charge will be 2.5%.
Use online will be 1% to 1.5%
www.poems.com.sg (http://www.poems.com.sg)
www.fundsupermart.com (http://www.fundsupermart.com)
Thanks,
Richard
Because I don't know what fund to buy, that's need the banker to recommend me. Maybe I will try online next time but still not sure what fund to buy, very inexperience.:(
Because I don't know what fund to buy, that's need the banker to recommend me. Maybe I will try online next time but still not sure what fund to buy, very inexperience.:(
You can ask the banker for recommendation but no need to buy from him. Get the recommendation and buy online. But don't believe all that he says. Check the fund performance on the statistics.
If you like Singapore blue chip companies, can consider to buy the STI ETF on weakness (when it dips on bad news etc) rather than unit trust as the charges/fees are lesser.
http://www.moneytalk.sg/2008/12/sti-etf-vs-unit-trust.html
Because I don't know what fund to buy, that's need the banker to recommend me. Maybe I will try online next time but still not sure what fund to buy, very inexperience.:(
Iris, learn how to buy stocks instead of unit trust. at least you make the decision and you answer to yourself and you learn. read through internet :
http://www.howtoinvesthq.com/what-causes-stock-prices-to-rise-and-fall/
Google.:D start small.
Because I don't know what fund to buy, that's need the banker to recommend me. Maybe I will try online next time but still not sure what fund to buy, very inexperience.:(
fundsupermart's recommendation generally works. I use dollar cost averaging (not lump sum investment) with periodic rebalancing to help build my retirement pot - works well so far. in this regard, I don't feel a need to pay the broker more than what it takes to transact since I'm not using their advice.
don't think bankers could sell you any investment product without conducting a proper KYC (and now CKA) with you under the FA Act, to know your e.g. financial situation, time horizon, risk appetite, etc (note that risk is just one of the few attributes). I certainly feel that it justifies a complaint case if they haven't done so.
I keep suggesting "complaint" not because I'm a singaporean.. :p investment is complicated and since MAS provides means to protect our interest, why not use them? :)
To irisng, sorry no offense, I sense you are not really well versed in financial products, better dun invest in this and that funds... Especially under the "advise" of bank RMs... If you believe in Singapore story, just buy the top Singapore banks, telcos stocks themselves. Simple and straightforward, no need through middleman, no hidden cost.
Unit trust is good if u want to gain exposure outside Sg.
To irisng, sorry no offense, I sense you are not really well versed in financial products, better dun invest in this and that funds... Especially under the "advise" of bank RMs... If you believe in Singapore story, just buy the top Singapore banks, telcos stocks themselves. Simple and straightforward, no need through middleman, no hidden cost.
Ya, I'm not very well versed in financial products, so far in hand I have only 2 types of funds, one started late last yr and one this year. Without much knowledge, I leave it to the bank to run for me, but now with so many advices and tips, I have another alternatives and that's buy online. In investment, I'm considered a "newbie", oops... sorry newbie, I'm using your name.
Because I don't know what fund to buy, that's need the banker to recommend me. Maybe I will try online next time but still not sure what fund to buy, very inexperience.:(
hi iris, check my earlier post on how to select fundsupermart funds.. they have all the recommended portfolios for you to copycat. and do dollar average like i mentioned, so that you have discipline through-out diff mkt conditions.
alternatively, if you have abt 20-30k minimum to play with, just play with these few - banks (ocbc for a start if you prefer low entry level), sgx, sph, singtel, some of the other blue chips. i am not saying they are the best, but really quite safe and you are unlikely to lose your capital over time. but must accept ups and downs are normal in stk mkt.
if you have time to monitor mkt, play with keppel corp and semb marine. they give you pocket money to use every 2-3 mths. not just dividends, but they have very fast cycles and for every 1-2 lot, you can earn abt 1k every 2-3 months if you buy on dip and sell on strength. but hv to watch it over time to have a sense of price levels.
my personal view. other experts will have theirs lah.
Buying unit trusts are placing your trust in the person managing the funds for you.
As for cost, it's too high and there are so many layers of charges.
I would go for ETF instead.
I would go for ETF instead.
thanks. it is a valid point.
but if you are talking about exposure to a certain class of equity (country risk, or industry risk, etc), is ETF able to achieve the coverage that you want for yourself?
another question - is there an ETF for bonds? or can i achieve a portfolio of bonds without excessive capital upfront. say i wanna put aside 1k every month.
Just realised I did not participate in this thread.
Let me share :
1. don't trade in the market if you are not a trader
2. even you are a trader, 90% or more is losing money
2. it is very difficult to buy on dip and sell on strength, as there is only one party is right all the time, that is Mr Market. You may make on trading money and lose out on the investment return.
4. This year, is an equity year, pick up some good counters and hold. This is not a difficult job, you just need to have some good knowledge and skill and spend time.
5. Don't be over calculative on the charges, you need to see the big money.
6. they don't charge some, but charge some other places, they need to make a living as well. It depends how smart you are in negotiation.
Every time, when I make a call, I will buy some. But unfortunately, those asked me to make call, did not buy....what a joke.
1. don't trade in the market if you are not a trader
2. even you are a trader, 90% or more is losing money
.
sorry, your trade referring to what product?
sorry, your trade referring to what product?
trader can trade in many products....equity, indexes, futures....
:scared-1: all of you are an expert in the investment markets. I still have a long way to learn :ashamed1:.
Citibank offers leverage for a few of the high income unit trusts. No need to pay back the principle on a regular basis. Any other banks doing this? Well it's not for the faint-hearted, but actually if you work out the sums can get enough returns from the dividends to cover the interest payments and make a decent return. Take as an example, buying 300K of an 8% yield unit trust using 100K cash at current interest rate. But beware you might be asked to top up if the price of the unit trust heads down south.
As with all investments, the higher the return the higher the risk. It's whether you have the stomach (or in the opp sex case, iron balls) to take the risk.
:scared-1: all of you are an expert in the investment markets. I still have a long way to learn :ashamed1:.
actually sis, there is an easy way out. just buy the ocbc or dbs NCPS.. guaranteed net of transaction cost you have 4-4.5% yield on the back of good names.
of coz the usual caveat of perpetual bonds, credit risk, non-cumulative etc etc applies. but dun bother about it lah. if anything "bad" happens to investments in these ncps, you wun have much of your SGD or even sgp ppty value left.
actually sis, there is an easy way out. just buy the ocbc or dbs NCPS.. guaranteed net of transaction cost you have 4-4.5% yield on the back of good names.
of coz the usual caveat of perpetual bonds, credit risk, non-cumulative etc etc applies. but dun bother about it lah. if anything "bad" happens to investments in these ncps, you wun have much of your SGD or even sgp ppty value left.
Need to read more info on those ncps. The issuer can call back upon certain dates. U may even lose on transaction comm and fees if issuer decide to redeem based on current price.
Need to read more info on those ncps. The issuer can call back upon certain dates. U may even lose on transaction comm and fees if issuer decide to redeem based on current price.
NCPS issue will usually have at least 5yrs before first call
after that they will need to increase the yield
as stipulated in the prospectus, if they don't call:cool:
Need to read more info on those ncps. The issuer can call back upon certain dates. U may even lose on transaction comm and fees if issuer decide to redeem based on current price.
what i am saying is that if dbs or ocbc were to "chut pattern" that is not typically expected of them, it is already doomsday scenario for singapore.
i will not say the same for genting and other companies pert bonds.
If you are so sure about the fund you are going to buy, you shouldn't use a human banker. The minimum sales charge will be 2.5%.
Use online will be 1% to 1.5%
www.poems.com.sg
www.fundsupermart.com
Thanks,
Richard
I found out today that POEMS has 0.75% sales charge. No minimum amount for purchase. This is a pretty good deal. I think it's the cheapest in the market? Good for regular savings (e.g. monthly).
I found out today that POEMS has 0.75% sales charge. No minimum amount for purchase. This is a pretty good deal. I think it's the cheapest in the market? Good for regular savings (e.g. monthly).
for fixed income, FSM RSP is 0% sales charge and 0.2% platform fee annually.
for equity, FSM RSP is 0% sales charge and 0.5% platform fee pa.
i personally find that FSM website is easier to negotiate. am still undecided which one i want to use, FSM or poems. depending on your portfolio size, period holding, etc.
Hi...which will be a better machinary to get UTs then?
Poems has a sales charge but zero platform charges
FSM has zero sales charge but carry platform charges based on the fund structure.
What are the additional costs?
What are the differences in cost when doing RSP for both of the Poem and FSM?
Doing away navigation issue, in term of cost and valuation - which one is a better deal?
Hi...which will be a better machinary to get UTs then?
Poems has a sales charge but zero platform charges
FSM has zero sales charge but carry platform charges based on the fund structure.
What are the additional costs?
What are the differences in cost when doing RSP for both of the Poem and FSM?
Doing away navigation issue, in term of cost and valuation - which one is a better deal?
there is no right answer. do up a spreadsheet, throw in your numbers and investment period, then look at the outcome and decide what you want. in simple talk, poems for long term and FSM for short term investment. 0.2% * 3.5 years = 0.7% (assuming no compounding)
for me i like FSM platform and willing to pay a small premium for it.
if you invest $100/mth, that's $1200 per yr. the platform fee is $2.40 nia. dun lose sleep over it.
Can anyone enlighten me so that I can set my mind in peace.
Example 1:
Bought $10k unit trust from the banker and he promised to charge me $350 for the sales charge and when received the confirmation notice from the bank, it was indeed $350 sales charge.:)
Calc:
$10,000 x 5% = $500 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.5%) = $150 ($10,000 x 1.5%)
= $350 (sales charge after discount)
Example2:
Bought $12k unit trust from another banker and he promised to charge me $320 for the sales charge but when received the confirmation notice from the bank, the sales charge was $384. :(
Calc:
$12,000 x 5% = $600 (sales charge before discount)
Discount (1.8%) = $216 ($12,000 x 1.8%)
= $384 (sales charge after discount)
Is that how the bank calculates the sales charge? If that's the case, the banker shouldn't tell the customer that the sales charge is $320 only, very misleading for new investors.
The biggest cheat of your life is yet to come, when your bank jacks up your mortgage loan by 2% and says take it or leave it. :tsk-tsk:
The biggest cheat of your life is yet to come, when your bank jacks up your mortgage loan by 2% and says take it or leave it. :tsk-tsk:
why cheat??? it's ok wat. money made from rental over past few years and capital gains made over past few years already more than cover rate hike. sell 1 unit already can pay for the other unit already. don't tell me u didn't buy over the past couple of years.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: don't tell me u missed the biggest bull run :eek: :eek: :eek:
why cheat??? it's ok wat. money made from rental over past few years and capital gains made over past few years already more than cover rate hike. sell 1 unit already can pay for the other unit already. don't tell me u didn't buy over the past couple of years.:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: don't tell me u missed the biggest bull run :eek: :eek: :eek:
Sorry hor, so many year ago, i forgot liao - my home bought from bank mortgagee sale. :p
Sorry hor, so many year ago, i forgot liao - my home bought from bank mortgagee sale. :p
great:cheers4:
hope u bot a few u units during those years:cheers1:
The biggest cheat of your life is yet to come, when your bank jacks up your mortgage loan by 2% and says take it or leave it. :tsk-tsk:
The valuations have been going up and up and if you have been paying your mortgage down over the years, you can still hop banks for a better deal when the lock-in period is up as the LTV may still fall within the allowable limits.
It's those folks who took high LTV mortgages more recently (just before the CMs) that might be caught and not able to refinance under the new rules.
But some of the "older" packages are still a good deal (based on 1% + one month or 3 month SOR). If the SOR goes up,too bad, there's nothing you can do about it but grit your teeth and pay. Don't say you never knew that interest rates will go up again. What you have just gone through is one of the lowest interest rate environments in decades.
But some of the "older" packages are still a good deal (based on 1% + one month or 3 month SOR). If the SOR goes up,too bad, there's nothing you can do about it but grit your teeth and pay. Don't say you never knew that interest rates will go up again. What you have just gone through is one of the lowest interest rate environments in decades.
You need to read your agreement, most of them will reserve the right for the bank to change the "good deal" you were given with a written notice and notice period.
You need to read your agreement, most of them will reserve the right for the bank to change the "good deal" you were given with a written notice and notice period.
all banks will have such clauses. which bank suka suka change? no need to get so paranoid over t and c.
Have not known the bank to change the T&C even through the economic crises. The mortgage market is competitive, the customer can go and look for a better deal elsewhere.
Have not known the bank to change the T&C even through the economic crises. The mortgage market is competitive, the customer can go and look for a better deal elsewhere.
Of course, problem is by the time they change the terms, you can be sure that the market rates offered by other banks will be higher. Banks are not stupid, they will not change unless they are sure you can't run.
And besides, you may not be able to refinance at the same LTV.
:D
Ai yoh you ignorant is it? Refinance at same LTV not sure, but refinance at outstanding amount, even if at 80% LTV, is Ok even now.
Of course, problem is by the time they change the terms, you can be sure that the market rates offered by other banks will be higher. Banks are not stupid, they will not change unless they are sure you can't run.
And besides, you may not be able to refinance at the same LTV.
:D
I read my last Letter of Offer for re-financing. There's no clause there for them to change the interest rates offered (0.65% plus 1 month SIBOR for the duration of the loan). I have never known a bank to renegade on the interest rate spreads offered (of course the SIBOR or SOR can go up - that is accepted and part of the risk of taking out a mortgage). If that should happen, then I believe there should be a serious crisis of some sort in the home loans market.
I read my last Letter of Offer for re-financing. There's no clause there for them to change the interest rates offered (0.65% plus 1 month SIBOR for the duration of the loan). I have never known a bank to renegade on the interest rate spreads offered (of course the SIBOR or SOR can go up - that is accepted and part of the risk of taking out a mortgage). If that should happen, then I believe there should be a serious crisis of some sort in the home loans market.
it's people like sgbuyer who start this and if people like chiaberry do not contradict, then rumor becomes fact.
ask sgbuyer to site a case.
it's the same story like mortgage top up required if property price drop to below loan amount. rumor became fact.
it's the same story like mortgage top up required if property price drop to below loan amount. rumor became fact.
i understand from my banker that in the days of 110% LTV, certain banks did ask for top up. so it's fact - banks do as for top up. but it is also a myth - because today, at 60% or 80% LTV, this will not happen.
it's people like sgbuyer who start this and if people like chiaberry do not contradict, then rumor becomes fact.
ask sgbuyer to site a case.
it's the same story like mortgage top up required if property price drop to below loan amount. rumor became fact.
Interest rates have not risen yet, so how can there be a case? In a market, we must always anticipate what happens ahead of time.
If a non-profit organization such as the govt can earn an extra 5%-15% from ABSD, why can't the bank also deserve another extra 1% if they have that opportunity?
In my opinion, 99.9% of people who bought private property can afford an immediate 1% rate hike.
If a non-profit organization such as the govt can earn an extra 5%-15% from ABSD, why can't the bank also deserve another extra 1% if they have that opportunity?
because of competition, things will be competitive.
i understand from my banker that in the days of 110% LTV, certain banks did ask for top up. so it's fact - banks do as for top up. but it is also a myth - because today, at 60% or 80% LTV, this will not happen.
Yes in the days of the financial crisis, banks did ask for top up for loans secured against property and shares.
This can happen again if by any chance the property market drops by 50%, although it looks unlikely at the moment.
But then, it also looked unlikely for the mighty Lehman to fall pre-2008 so you cannot say never.
For banks rate hike, it will be done through the proper channels when the SIBOR or SOR increases rather than the bank anyhow slap an additional 1% on the spread. By and large, they should stick to the terms of the mortgage as stated in the Letter of Offer.
...
For banks rate hike, it will be done through the proper channels when the SIBOR or SOR increases rather than the bank anyhow slap an additional 1% on the spread. By and large, they should stick to the terms of the mortgage as stated in the Letter of Offer.
Most recently when SOR goes negative, received letter from bank stating base rate is 0%. they effectively change the T&C.
In my Letter of Offer, there is this sentence:
In the event that the value of the 1-Month Sibor is negative, it will be deemed to be 0% for purposes of computing the interest rates above.
In my Letter of Offer, there is this sentence:
In the event that the value of the 1-Month Sibor is negative, it will be deemed to be 0% for purposes of computing the interest rates above.
the risk officers in CIMB should be fired.
anyway, my example is to show that T&C can be changed and would be changed.
this is only expected of banks. there is no way they will give you money as interest when the rates turn negative.......wah, bank gives me $ for borrowing $ from them :scared-5:
Avoid overseas banks if u are worried about topping up your mortgage loan.
I have not heard of local banks asking for top up when u did not default your monthly installment.
Banks not supposed to change the spread as stated in your contract. Go for big reputable banks.
this is only expected of banks. there is no way they will give you money as interest when the rates turn negative.......wah, bank gives me $ for borrowing $ from them :scared-5:
when got give money? SOR at the most -0.3%. where got bank spread +0.3%? minimum spread is about +0.60%.
so banks still make money.
when got give money? SOR at the most -0.3%. where got bank spread +0.3%? minimum spread is about +0.60%.
so banks still make money.
well, the clause is there to protect them if the rate drops further south. covering their asses in any possible way
Avoid overseas banks if u are worried about topping up your mortgage loan.
I have not heard of local banks asking for top up when u did not default your monthly installment.
Banks not supposed to change the spread as stated in your contract. Go for big reputable banks.
myth or fact? banker friend of mine told me a certain local bank asked for top-up.
Asking for top-up always happen - Only when the borrower missed any single payment first... :doh:
myth or fact? banker friend of mine told me a certain local bank asked for top-up.
well, the clause is there to protect them if the rate drops further south. covering their asses in any possible way
Here is a sample from one of the banks in which the bank can change the interest rate from the rates stated in the Letter of Offer, by giving you 1 month's notice, or "such other period as we may determine" - which I presume can be as little as 1 day's notice.
http://trial.w-sn.dbs.com/sg/personal/homeloans/resource/terms/mortgageloan.pdf
7.1 Notwithstanding the interest rates stated in the Letter of Offer, we may vary the interest rate of the Loan Facility at any time by
giving you one (1) month’s notice or such other period as we may determine.
However, we do not need to give you any notice if
there is a change in the Prime Rate and any interest rate which is based on the Prime Rate. The Prime Rate may be changed by us
at any time without earlier notice.
2 things to clarify:
1) Never heard before they exercise this over other terms & conditions since this minor clause is buried within all other clauses while the main terms & conditions in the main Letter of Offer supersede everything else in the T&Cs.
2) This refers to the interest rate, but not the spread, which is fixed based on the Letter of Offer.
Here is a sample from one of the banks in which the bank can change the interest rate from the rates stated in the Letter of Offer, by giving you 1 month's notice, or "such other period as we may determine" - which I presume can be as little as 1 day's notice.
http://trial.w-sn.dbs.com/sg/personal/homeloans/resource/terms/mortgageloan.pdf
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