View Full Version : COE revamp suggestions
The COE system really needs a re-look and revamp. Unfortunately, it is impossible to do away with.
If LTA listens only to the auto industry alone for a revamp, there won't be much improvement because these agencies are self-serving. In the end the elevated costs are still passed to the consumer and the consumer is the one saddled with huge loan on a depreciating asset (or should I say liability).
Associated services like financiers, insurers, after-sales ... etc stand to benefit from inflated car prices. This also benefits car dealers as well bcoz they in turn get a cut from the referrals.
How about we pretend that we are LTA. Let's brainstorm some ideas on how to revamp the COE system.
I'll start the ball rolling.
1. COE cost cannot be loaned.
2. Pay as you bid - not pay the lowest strike price.
1. COE cost cannot be loaned.
2. Pay as you bid - not pay the lowest strike price
3. Car buyers to bid COEs on their own instead of dealers bidding for them
1. COE cost cannot be loaned.
2. Pay as you bid - not pay the lowest strike price
3. Car buyers to bid COEs on their own instead of dealers bidding for them
Pro family policy.
Every singaporean given ONE 10% dependent COE rebate voucher.
Each car can be register with max of 4 dependent rebate vouchers.
So for the following familes, all entitled max 40% rebate
1) husband, wife, 3 children
2) husband, wife, 2 parents and handicapped sibling.
3) widowed husband/wife, 2 children and 2 parents
....
ikan bilis
11-01-13, 17:20
1. COE cost cannot be loaned.
2. Pay as you bid - not pay the lowest strike price
3. Car buyers to bid COEs on their own instead of dealers bidding for them
.... what if dealers selling all the new cars as second-hand car ??.... :beats-me-man: :(
.... what if dealers selling all the new cars as second-hand car ??.... :beats-me-man: :(
Second hand cars come with COEs right?
So what you are saying is that dealers buy the COEs first and then sell them back to car buyers with a car.
Sure it can happen but that's a big risk to the car dealers is it not? The car dealer cannot have a binding contract to ensure that a buyer purchases the car after the dealer has secured a COE.
Its an even bigger risk if they buy COEs without confirming a buyer. I imagine dealers for Cherry QQ would go bankrupt.
car dealers should never be the one to bid for COE, there is a major conflict of interest
increase the scrap value of cars from 8 years onwards and allow the industry to transfer COE for cars beyong economical repair
All new cars to have min. two front airbag and traction control . Taxis included factory fitted ABS.
This would not only increase the rate of scrap as well as ensure that the cars that are paid are safe. Else to increase the profitability may result in a less then safe car.
If the purpose of the COE is to control the vehicles on-road by having a quota, then it should not be linked with monetary values. It should have been balloted monthly and it all boils down to your LUCK(like HDB BTO).
However, since the govt. wishes to earn money from the COE to offset some expenses from providing transport infrastructure, then the best of both worlds would be to :-
1) Every buyer put in a bid(of his desire, not the motor companies decision).
2) This bid will be put into a balloting system for draw monthly
3) If quota is 100 for the month, the 1st 100 drawn from the balloting will PAY the MEDIAN of the bids(after eliminating the top 20% highest price bids and the bottom 20% loweest price bids).
To prevent profiteering:-
1) COE cannot be transferred for the 1st year.
2) When sold off or scrap, COE is NON-REFUNDABLE(No pro-rata).
3) Allow the same COE to be used if you change car(like now). However, cannot be sold off for 1 yr again.
But I know this system will not materialise since govt is interested more in maximising the value from the COE system . The lesser evil is that Only RICH can play the game which is acceptable to the govt.
My colleague wrote to Mr Lui yesterday and received a reply very quickly that they will revert soon. His perm sec must be busy.
Wrt balloting, its not just about making money.
If there is ballot system, every eligible person (including PRs, foreigners) will ballot at every COE exercise. Since there is no cost involved. Even if they have no intention to own a car.
What if you own a business or in a job that requires a vehicle, then how? Must wait until you strike the COE lottery?
Meanwhile the resale car prices will skyrocket... since new cars are by the luck of the draw. If the demand is what it is now, prices of cars will still hover around where they are now.
Quite hard to work I think.
If the purpose of the COE is to control the vehicles on-road by having a quota, then it should not be linked with monetary values. It should have been balloted monthly and it all boils down to your LUCK(like HDB BTO).
However, since the govt. wishes to earn money from the COE to offset some expenses from providing transport infrastructure, then the best of both worlds would be to :-
1) Every buyer put in a bid(of his desire, not the motor companies decision).
2) This bid will be put into a balloting system for draw monthly
3) If quota is 100 for the month, the 1st 100 drawn from the balloting will PAY the MEDIAN of the bids(after eliminating the top 20% highest price bids and the bottom 20% loweest price bids).
To prevent profiteering:-
1) COE cannot be transferred for the 1st year.
2) When sold off or scrap, COE is NON-REFUNDABLE(No pro-rata).
3) Allow the same COE to be used if you change car(like now). However, cannot be sold off for 1 yr again.
But I know this system will not materialise since govt is interested more in maximising the value from the COE system . The lesser evil is that Only RICH can play the game which is acceptable to the govt.
Remove COE and make people pay based on usage rate since GPS ERP is already in the testing phase.
There are 1 M cars in Singapore, each will last for 10 years.
So the annual quota should be 100K per year.
Each year has 24 bidding sessions, so each bidding session should have
100K / 24 = 4K Quota.
Just maintain this stable supply, the price stability will be much better.
Currently there are only 1.5K supply per session.
(And there will be 10K? supply per session in year 2015).
Thanks,
Richard
There are 1 M cars in Singapore, each will last for 10 years.
So the annual quota should be 100K per year.
Each year has 24 bidding sessions, so each bidding session should have
100K / 24 = 4K Quota.
Just maintain this stable supply, the price stability will be much better.
Currently there are only 1.5K supply per session.
(And there will be 10K? supply per session in year 2015).
Thanks,
Richard
This is dependent on the amount of cars being scrapped at each point in time. Some cars get scrapped after 2 or 3 years where others drive on for 20 or even 30 years.
The quota will shift according to the existing number of cars on the road... and since the rate of scrapping is not fixed, the quota size cannot be fixed either.
If LTA is reading this, my idea is to levy BSD on foreigners for passenger vehicles.
i second the idea of pay as much as you bid.
those lux cars with small turbo charged engine should be in a Cat A+, separate from the basic Cat A category.
Interest rate for car loan may increase soon.
20% cash downpayment could be mandatory.
reverting back to 30% down and 7 yrs loan cap as per the yester years will ensure a stable mkt. those who can't afford new car just buy 2nd hand. last time the mkt was like that and it was very stable.
but now alot of rich pple around, not like last time. so there has to be some mechanism for singaporeans to be able to own their 1 car allocation. but how to allocate will be a tough nut to crack. by person/address - all these can be circumvented.
reverting back to 30% down and 7 yrs loan cap as per the yester years will ensure a stable mkt. those who can't afford new car just buy 2nd hand. last time the mkt was like that and it was very stable.
but now alot of rich pple around, not like last time. so there has to be some mechanism for singaporeans to be able to own their 1 car allocation. but how to allocate will be a tough nut to crack. by person/address - all these can be circumvented.
Its not tough, its impossible.
There more people than cars allowed.
buttercarp
12-01-13, 22:43
If LTA is reading this, my idea is to levy BSD on foreigners for passenger vehicles.
Some suggestions:
Foreigners pay 200% of the COE price.
SPR pay 100% of COE price.
SC get 50% rebate from the COE price.
Remove COE and make people pay based on usage rate since GPS ERP is already in the testing phase.
Prepare to have a lot more parking lots... People will buy more cars and select which car to drive...
i second the idea of pay as much as you bid.
those lux cars with small turbo charged engine should be in a Cat A+, separate from the basic Cat A category.
Engine capacity can no longer be used... Electric car where got engine capacity... Category should go by how powerful the car is... Close loop hole on turbo, hybrids...
adrianmtsg
13-01-13, 06:53
Just my thoughts
- Change the mindset of owning a car in Singapore. We all perceived that a car ownership is cool and atas. Its like smoking were well received until images alter how we look at it now.
- Public transport need to be improved. With influx of foreigners, it can becomes quite unpleasant for taking buses and MRT now. Maybe they should not privatize them giving me an impression that their profit comes way before service.
- Remove or reduce carparks. Concentrate with a mega carpark in certain MRT stations. So perhaps we will all start parking there and proceed with public transport.
Remove COE and make people pay based on usage rate since GPS ERP is already in the testing phase.Govt wants to earn both from COE and ERP... Next time there'll be ERP deduction whenever you drive out of your home carpark... :scared-3:
out law all cars. only commercial or business n public transport have car. rest walk , bike or take public transport.
wah lah! solve high COE problem and traffic jam!
Govt wants to earn both from COE and ERP... Next time there'll be ERP deduction whenever you drive out of your home carpark... :scared-3:
no $ to pay better dont drive. take public transport loh. so concern tax. all these are consumption tax. u consume u get tax. dont want to pay? have a choice dont consume!
Everything has its fair price. The fair price for COE is around S$20K as per the following calculation:
The average quota for yearly COE should be 100K if the seller has done a decent job to smooth the supply. The expected revenue from COE is S$2B per year. So the fair price for COE is
S$2B / 100K = S$20K
The officers who caused the COE price to drop to S$2 should be fired, as well as those who will push the COE price to beyond S$150K (soon?)
Thanks,
Richard
Everything has its fair price. The fair price for COE is around S$20K as per the following calculation:
The average quota for yearly COE should be 100K if the seller has done a decent job to smooth the supply. The expected revenue from COE is S$2B per year. So the fair price for COE is
S$2B / 100K = S$20K
The officers who caused the COE price to drop to S$2 should be fired, as well as those who will push the COE price to beyond S$150K (soon?)
Thanks,
Richard
Hi just curious why the expected revenue is 2 bil?
Everything has its fair price. The fair price for COE is around S$20K as per the following calculation:
The average quota for yearly COE should be 100K if the seller has done a decent job to smooth the supply. The expected revenue from COE is S$2B per year. So the fair price for COE is
S$2B / 100K = S$20K
The officers who caused the COE price to drop to S$2 should be fired, as well as those who will push the COE price to beyond S$150K (soon?)
Thanks,
Richard
just curious how u come up with a fair price? its bidded where more people feel rich bid higher. make $ in share or property go cheong cars.
so how to fair priced it?
lucky draw ? or national car lottery? or base on 1st alphabet of the sir name?
in land scare singapore. car should be a luxury.. take public transport. if u need a car means u have to be willing to pay for it. coz its a luxury.
car is not a birth right. u are born with legs not wheels.
in land scare singapore. car should be a luxury.. take public transport. if u need a car means u have to be willing to pay for it. coz its a luxury.
car is not a birth right. u are born with legs not wheels.
Last time i used to cycle 30-40mins to go to school.
Now public transport is so easily available. Government should really step up their efforts on mrt breakdowns.
Hi just curious why the expected revenue is 2 bil?
http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2012/revenue_expenditure/index.html#rev_est
It is clearly stated in the Budget as "Vehicle Quota Premiums".
Please bear in mind this is the estimated or expected Operating Revenue in advance - something well planned, not just happen by chance.
Please bear in mind this macro level planning, and not be fooled by the session by session micro level bids.
Thanks,
Richard
buttercarp
13-01-13, 16:51
Just my thoughts
- Remove or reduce carparks. Concentrate with a mega carpark in certain MRT stations. So perhaps we will all start parking there and proceed with public transport.
Super like this!
All those park and ride ca parks are so far from the MRT station.
Imagine if you have to walk under the rain or hot sun to get to the station!
And after shopping, have to lug all the shopping bags to your car!
These should be near MRT stations, then I will definitely park there and take MRT to work or shopping.
Just imagine, if there is just 1 COE quota a year for people to bid, what will be the price?
Maybe S$10M, who knows.
Do you call that market force?
When there is monopoly supply, it is the seller's duty to plan it and ensure a smooth supply. Otherwise the market will not function.
I have no issue to pay S$100K COE if you can tell me it will remain at that price level for the next 10 years.
My bet is that it will come down to the fair value towards S$20K (after running up to S$150K first?).
Thanks,
Richard
And also imagine if there are 1M COE quota in a year to allow people to bid, what will be the price?
Maybe just S$1K, who knows.
The extreme fluctuation of COE supply is the root cause of the fluctuation of COE prices.
Thanks,
Richard
buttercarp
13-01-13, 17:08
Just imagine, if there is just 1 COE quota a year for people to bid, what will be the price?
Maybe S$10M, who knows.
Do you call that market force?
When there is monopoly supply, it is the seller's duty to plan it and ensure a smooth supply. Otherwise the market will not function.
I have no issue to pay S$100K COE if you can tell me it will remain at that price level for the next 10 years.
My bet is that it will come down to the fair value towards S$20K (after running up to S$150K first?).
Thanks,
Richard
Hi richwang, I think you maybe rite.
It cannot just go up and up.
Actually they should just scrap the COE and implement expensive charges eg $50 to $100 ERP.
Or implement restricted zone cars eg if you live in D16, then you can only travel within D16, if wanna travel outside, then have to pay.
Erp at $50-$100. Wah. The cashcard most probably store $1000. Haha.
So like that then scrap Coe! Fix road pricing n have national car lottery! But the. There will be black market. Maybe car will sell for same price as now coz fair value by black market too!
pay what you bid and COE can only be settled in cash. no loan against it. maybe the market will adjust itself then.
pay what you bid and COE can only be settled in cash. no loan against it. maybe the market will adjust itself then.
similar to this
http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/forum-letters/story/tag-coes-owners-not-vehicles-20130112
buttercarp
13-01-13, 21:13
similar to this
http://www.straitstimes.com/premium/forum-letters/story/tag-coes-owners-not-vehicles-20130112
If you tag to the owner, then what happens when the owner sells the car and decides not to own another?
If it is not transferrable then the owner should be refunded the remaining COE price.
If it is transferrable, then it may open a can of worms .........
Just scrape COE lah. Each ERP gantry min $30, and up parking charges by 200%.
Present system just encourages higher usage of cars so that you dun lugi on the 10 yr COE. It doesnt solve the congestion issue at all. What is $5 ERP when you are paying $90K for a COE?
I dun see Sydney, HK & New York having a problem without the COE system.
no $ to pay better dont drive. take public transport loh. so concern tax. all these are consumption tax. u consume u get tax. dont want to pay? have a choice dont consume!What consume? Govt proudly say ERP is to regulate traffic, not consumption. Sat and Sun free ERP means no consumption? Also, not talking about no money so don't drive. The argument here is about rich people with money but why must we pay so much just to drive? You speak about taking public transport but there is another argument there about frequent breakdowns of trains... :confused:
to kick things off, how about upping the entry barrier? buyers need to fork out a higher amount cash, e.g. 20% of car price, instead of a pittance fee now.
remember the days when buyers can drive away brand new cars with just $1 deposit at pasar malams....:banghead: :banghead:
buttercarp
14-01-13, 12:23
to kick things off, how about upping the entry barrier? buyers need to fork out a higher amount cash, e.g. 20% of car price, instead of a pittance fee now.
remember the days when buyers can drive away brand new cars with just $1 deposit at pasar malams....:banghead: :banghead:
Good idea.
Or perhaps COE must be upfront cash and no loan allowed on it.
If you tag to the owner, then what happens when the owner sells the car and decides not to own another?
If it is not transferrable then the owner should be refunded the remaining COE price.
If it is transferrable, then it may open a can of worms .........
not sure what the writer thinks about it but my personal view is to make COE a commitment. if owner knows that COEs are not transferable for X years and no refunds, maybe owner will do the sums properly before committing?
not sure what the writer thinks about it but my personal view is to make COE a commitment. if owner knows that COEs are not transferable for X years and no refunds, maybe owner will do the sums properly before committing?
searched and found this
http://royongbg.wordpress.com/2013/01/13/addons-tag-coes-to-owners-not-vehicles/
What consume? Govt proudly say ERP is to regulate traffic, not consumption. Sat and Sun free ERP means no consumption? Also, not talking about no money so don't drive. The argument here is about rich people with money but why must we pay so much just to drive? You speak about taking public transport but there is another argument there about frequent breakdowns of trains... :confused:
u dont want to pay ERP then dont drive lor simple thats consumption. break down? ur car down break down? u pc down break? ur toilet dont break? common..
got people point gun at u force u to drive? drive then pay lah.. no $ dont drive. kiam dont drive. bay song pay tax dont drive. u got choice!
u dont want to pay ERP then dont drive lor simple thats consumption. break down? ur car down break down? u pc down break? ur toilet dont break? common..
got people point gun at u force u to drive? drive then pay lah.. no $ dont drive. kiam dont drive. bay song pay tax dont drive. u got choice!Ok ok now I know you are a rich guy. Talk with absolutely no compassion for the not so rich! When has cars become a luxury item reserved ONLY for the rich and not so kiam? If QQ is luxurious because its a car, then Lexus is ...? Never seen a QQ parked at a rich man's house! :47: There are some cars designed for the not so rich but its just not possible for that scenario to survive in Singapore today! In short, the Singapore private car market has broken the rule of conventional car market... :rolleyes:
in land scare singapore. car should be a luxury.. take public transport. if u need a car means u have to be willing to pay for it. coz its a luxury.
car is not a birth right. u are born with legs not wheels.
Like !
What we need now is just some fine tuning to make sure it works as designed. For example no loan on COE. Or even all taxes, e.g ARF etc. just like housing, can you pay stamp duty with loan ? No.
A whole generation grew up mistakenly believing car is a given right. This has to be corrected.
I don't enjoy driving to work and have every intention to take the MRT. I am however fearful of getting caught in a train breakdown though.
perhaps it true that cars should remain for those who can afford
but the rest of us need to move around too
MRT = frequent breakdowns
Bus = another strike how?
Taxi = still cannot find them when you need one
so maybe we need to improve public transport system first before people can consider living without cars. look at hong kong, how many people travel without cars as compared to us?
There are people who even say COE so high because of COE bidding, should do balloting so that the scheme will not be just benefit the rich who can pay more! (see TodayOnline).
Mmm, I am wondering, if not based on bidding but balloting, since property prices so high, may be people should also ballot for a house rather than open-market transactions so that house price will never increase?
Mmm, to be fair to all citizens, citizens should be allowed to just ballot for a bungalow because how can the system be such that only the rich can benefit to live in a bungalow?!
perhaps it true that cars should remain for those who can afford
but the rest of us need to move around too
MRT = frequent breakdowns
Bus = another strike how?
Taxi = still cannot find them when you need one
so maybe we need to improve public transport system first before people can consider living without cars. look at hong kong, how many people travel without cars as compared to us?
in HK the car park cost more than the car. and even if u have a car u cannot afford a carpark.
There are people who even say COE so high because of COE bidding, should do balloting so that the scheme will not be just benefit the rich who can pay more! (see TodayOnline).
Mmm, I am wondering, if not based on bidding but balloting, since property prices so high, may be people should also ballot for a house rather than open-market transactions so that house price will never increase?
Mmm, to be fair to all citizens, citizens should be allowed to just ballot for a bungalow because how can the system be such that only the rich can benefit to live in a bungalow?!
Hmmm.. removing COE bidding is likened to removing COV for properties. A BMW will still be much more than a Nissan Sunny. A bungalow will definitely still be much more than a HDB flat or even a 3 bedder condo. Poor people cannot afford to own a bungalow still but can definitely rent one for a chalet... :cheers1: Interesting point.... Hmmm... :rolleyes:
There are people who even say COE so high because of COE bidding, should do balloting so that the scheme will not be just benefit the rich who can pay more! (see TodayOnline).
Mmm, I am wondering, if not based on bidding but balloting, since property prices so high, may be people should also ballot for a house rather than open-market transactions so that house price will never increase?
Mmm, to be fair to all citizens, citizens should be allowed to just ballot for a bungalow because how can the system be such that only the rich can benefit to live in a bungalow?!
i would advocate a points-based balloting system, rather than having something like Toto. your suggestion is veering towards what chairman mao advocated in the dark years of 'great leap'
SINGAPORE: Certificates of Entitlement (COEs) for vehicles fell across the board at the end of the latest bidding exercise on Wednesday.
The premium for small cars (Category A - 1,600cc and below) showed the sharpest decline, down S$8,808 from the previous close to S$78,301.
The COE for big cars (Category B - 1,601cc and above) fell S$234 to end at S$92,667.
In the Open category, the premium dropped S$2,980 to S$91,910.
Motorcycles COE stood at S$1,512, down S$270.
The premium for goods vehicles and buses cost S$53,489, down S$1,500.
You didn't "read" my sarcastic remarks? :p
If everything based on balloting then can be fair, people will also want to ballot to be Prime Minister or President and earn Millions$ a year! :doh:
i would advocate a points-based balloting system, rather than having something like Toto. your suggestion is veering towards what chairman mao advocated in the dark years of 'great leap'
LTA staffs are stupid or not? Isn't the solution so simple? Solutions are:
1) Pay what you bid (and not pay only the lowest successful bid!)
2) Ban car dealers from bidding on buyers behalf!
3) Because of (2), Car dealers must sell cars without COE & not with COE bundled!
SINGAPORE: Certificates of Entitlement (COEs) for vehicles fell across the board at the end of the latest bidding exercise on Wednesday.
The premium for small cars (Category A - 1,600cc and below) showed the sharpest decline, down S$8,808 from the previous close to S$78,301.
The COE for big cars (Category B - 1,601cc and above) fell S$234 to end at S$92,667.
In the Open category, the premium dropped S$2,980 to S$91,910.
Motorcycles COE stood at S$1,512, down S$270.
The premium for goods vehicles and buses cost S$53,489, down S$1,500.
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