View Full Version : Landed will drop while other property segments continue to rise
My fren bought a resale cluster house comes with tenancy @ $6.8k per mth for $2.08m..... So yield is about 3.9%
thank you...at least it is from u if not ppl say i vested want to talk up the market...for what??? we only say when we see ppl anyhow say, not because we are vested, at least for me...:D
very typical of 99LH cluster housing. Maintenance is pretty high though, easily set aside $500-600 per month. Problem with LH cluster is that the relatively good yield is only good to cover the depreciation of land lease.
Take hillcrest villa for example, prices level hasnt really got up much.
http://www.squarefoot.com.sg/trends-and-analysis/landed?p=hillcrest-villa
Aiyo!! Is FH leh.. to be more precise.. I can even tell you the Unit No. if you wish to know..
He is now collecting rental @ $6.8k per mth lor..
WESTMONT Semi-Detached House $2,080,000 2,906sf Strata 716 Nov-12
Omg. It really exposes your ignorance in landed construction. I will leave it open to the floor to critique on our comments so as to avoid a pointless and unnecessary argument.
no point trying to call me ignorant when you know very well that you are not sure about what you are saying.
Like I said, $300-350psf are budget rebuilding cost, certainly not in the league of rebuilding a GCB.
Aiyo!! Is FH leh.. to be more precise.. I can even tell you the Unit No. if you wish to know..
He is now collecting rental @ $6.8k per mth lor..
WESTMONT Semi-Detached House $2,080,000 2,906sf Strata 716 Nov-12
visited this project when it was launch many years back. This project has got one of the lowest psf price for landed property in that area. Actually price of this development hasnt really gone up by much, definitely not at the kind of pace many landed property owners here are talking about.
Did your friend tell you how much he is paying for maintenance at this project? 11 units with a common swimming pool?
visited this project when it was launch many years back. This project has got one of the lowest psf price for landed property in that area. Actually price of this development hasnt really gone up by much, definitely not at the kind of pace many landed property owners here are talking about.
Did your friend tell you how much he is paying for maintenance at this project? 11 units with a common swimming pool?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysk
Aiyo!! Is FH leh.. to be more precise.. I can even tell you the Unit No. if you wish to know..
He is now collecting rental @ $6.8k per mth lor..
WESTMONT Semi-Detached House $2,080,000 2,906sf Strata 716 Nov-12
I am not joining the argument, but just happen to have a little bit information on this project.
I missed this unit in November 2012. When I called, the agent said just sold out.
I think the launch price in about 2008 was slightly less than 2m. I MTB so was looking for something that had not increased that much, and this was one.
The agent said the maintenance fee was $500+.
no point trying to call me ignorant when you know very well that you are not sure about what you are saying.
Like I said, $300-350psf are budget rebuilding cost, certainly not in the league of rebuilding a GCB.
House TOP only in Jun 2011 so construction contract would have been signed in early 2010.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
Upper scale of construction cost for detached is S$3850 per sqm or S$358 psf
I leave it to readers here to drawn their own conclusion.
ringo bro, if bro bullman is not sure about what he is saying then no one else in condosg is. He the most laojiao when come to landed.
no point trying to call me ignorant when you know very well that you are not sure about what you are saying.
Like I said, $300-350psf are budget rebuilding cost, certainly not in the league of rebuilding a GCB.
For those who are interested to know, there is a little background of the Devloper (not owner) who sold the Binjai GCB. His target price then was 40m, end up settling at 31m.
Mar 26, 2011
people
Homing in on high-end property
Upscale bungalow developer confident demand will grow
By Esther Teo, Property Reporter
http://www.straitstimes.com/STI/STIMEDIA/image/20110325/ST_IMAGES_P1BLURBS26-M3.jpg
Mr George Lim is confident that demand for such good-class homes will grow in tandem with the growing ranks of rich folks here. -- ST PHOTO: DESMOND FOO
GOOD-CLASS bungalows are rare in Singapore, but even less common is the tale of Mr George Lim, who almost by chance has become a leading niche developer of these ultra-posh homes.
Since 2006, Mr Lim, 59, has redeveloped and sold at least seven of these bungalows, worth a total of $145 million.
He made headlines recently after paying a jaw-dropping record $61.4 million for a 41,852 sq ft site in Leedon Park. In his usual style, he plans to tear down the bungalow and redevelop the site with two good-class bungalows.
The unassuming Mr Lim says his foray into property was not planned, but 'happened along the way' after he sold his engineering firm for about $12 million. This helped him buy an $18 million good-class bungalow in Belmont Road. He lived there for three years before subdividing the 48,000 sq ft plot and building three homes - which sold for $33 million in total in 2006.
In an interview with The Straits Times, Mr Lim says his confidence in the value of homes here is based on land scarcity.
'My father bought our first house in Kembangan for $12,000, improved on it, and sold it for more than $60,000 after 10 years... I look at this and see that property investment has fantastic growth. There's no way you can put money into a savings account and get those kind of returns.'
He goes with a certain gut feeling - a 'feel-good' instinct - that allows him to be comfortable with every land purchase.
He holds a site for two to three years, tears down the old house, then a new, uniquely designed bungalow is built - and sold.
'Never alter a house, because it will never be as good as a new product and it will cost you almost the same,' he says, adding he will not rent out the homes.
Mr Lim has three other good-class bungalows on hand - in Binjai Park, Leedon Park and Second Avenue. All three are set to get a green mark rating, as he looks to build homes with environmentally friendly features like solar panels - another facet in his quest to build better homes.
The two bungalows in Binjai Park and Leedon Park are set to be ready by June. He hopes to sell them for more than $40 million each - a new unit price record of about $2,500 per sq ft - if successful.
But his success also comes with risks. Mr Lim admits that he is 50 per cent leveraged based on the cost of the properties.
Recent measures such as higher sellers' stamp duties are not an issue in this market, he says. He is confident that demand will continue to grow in tandem with the growing ranks of rich folks here.
'I will put a price there, and if somebody thinks it's worth buying, then I will sell it... My intention is to hold it as an investment for the long term... But the moment I sell it, I will look for another plot to buy, so that I stay in touch with the property market,' Mr Lim adds.
Good-class bungalows are the highest-end homes here. There are only about 2,400 of such homes in 39 gazetted areas such as Nassim, Dalvey and Tanglin.
[email protected]
http://www.asiaone.com/static/business/gallery/120413_binjai/images/pic1.jpg
http://www.asiaone.com/static/business/gallery/120413_binjai/images/pic3.jpg
For those who are interested to know, there is a little background of the Devloper (not owner) who sold the Binjai GCB. His target price then was 40m, end up settling at 31m.
So when you try to sell your condos, you will set your asking price at the same price that you are willing to settle for?
common sense will tell you that the cost of constructing and fitting up a modern GCB cannot be as cheap as building a mass market condo.
common sense will tell you that the cost of constructing and fitting up a modern GCB cannot be as cheap as building a mass market condo.
no point trying to call me ignorant when you know very well that you are not sure about what you are saying.
Like I said, $300-350psf are budget rebuilding cost, certainly not in the league of rebuilding a GCB.
Davis Langdon & Seah...$269psf to $358psf
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
This is 'common sense' for you.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rysk
Aiyo!! Is FH leh.. to be more precise.. I can even tell you the Unit No. if you wish to know..
He is now collecting rental @ $6.8k per mth lor..
WESTMONT Semi-Detached House $2,080,000 2,906sf Strata 716 Nov-12
I am not joining the argument, but just happen to have a little bit information on this project.
I missed this unit in November 2012. When I called, the agent said just sold out.
I think the launch price in about 2008 was slightly less than 2m. I MTB so was looking for something that had not increased that much, and this was one.
The agent said the maintenance fee was $500+.
major risk about buying such small cluster housing is that $500x11= $5500 per month. when comes to any major repair, painting, leaking etc, owners will need to dig very deep into their pocket. Worst if other owners refuses to contribute and the entire place will end up very run down.
actually the rental there is so much lower than what Varsity park is asking for apartment of similar size.
major risk about buying such small cluster housing is that $500x11= $5500 per month. when comes to any major repair, painting, leaking etc, owners will need to dig very deep into their pocket. Worst if other owners refuses to contribute and the entire place will end up very run down.
actually the rental there is so much lower than what Varsity park is asking for apartment of similar size.
Huh? $5500 PER MONTH ??? No wonder you are confused about construction cost.
Please do not get yourself confused by those who keep telling you that rebuilding a GCB is as cheap as mass market condo.
Based on BCA website, the average cost of building a rise rise flat (HDB) is in the region of S$210psf. Do remember to read the fine print to get a better understanding of what you are comparing.
http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/dls_intl_3Q12.pdf
Average mass market condo construction cost is around 350psf etc.
So for GCB that uses exotic grade A materials and designers fitting, lighting etc, do you think you can still build it for 350psf??
numbers doesnt lie, only those who misinterpret them do.
$500 x 11 units =$5500 per month
If you dont know, just ask, dont need to always assume others are fools.
Please do not get yourself confused by those who keep telling you that rebuilding a GCB is as cheap as mass market condo.
Based on BCA website, the average cost of building a rise rise flat (HDB) is in the region of S$210psf. Do remember to read the fine print to get a better understanding of what you are comparing.
http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/dls_intl_3Q12.pdf
Average mass market condo construction cost is around 350psf etc.
So for GCB that uses exotic grade A materials and designers fitting, lighting etc, do you think you can still build it for 350psf??
numbers doesnt lie, only those who misinterpret them do.
These are prices as at 3Q2012. So you think that George Lim who starting building his GCB in 2010 signed a contract with a builder at 3Q2012 prices ?
:doh:
major risk about buying such small cluster housing is that $500x11= $5500 per month. when comes to any major repair, painting, leaking etc, owners will need to dig very deep into their pocket. Worst if other owners refuses to contribute and the entire place will end up very run down.
actually the rental there is so much lower than what Varsity park is asking for apartment of similar size.
My company expat now renting a slightly smaller size than Westmont cluster but big PH unit at Varsity pk @ $6.5k/mth.. started last year only
My company expat now renting a slightly smaller size than Westmont cluster but big PH unit at Varsity pk @ $6.5k/mth.. started last year only
I think when VP was launched, PH were going for around 850k, about the price of MM apartment now.
Ultimately 10-20psf difference in construction cost is not going to change the fact that psf cost of building a modern GCB is more than mass market condo.
Ultimately 10-20psf difference in construction cost is not going to change the fact that psf cost of building a modern GCB is more than mass market condo.
I thought we were talking about the estimated amount of profit that George made which bullman estimated at $10m. Since when did it swing to psf cost of building a GCB vs mass mkt condo? Or is it because you have nothing better to offer as a counter?
btw, you still have not answered my question. Do you think that George Lim signed a construction contract in 2010 at 3Q2012 prices?
I hope whoever quoted these numbers should explain what it means. what does CFA include and exclude? unless of course he is just quoting blindly
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
I hope whoever quoted these numbers should explain what it means. what does CFA include and exclude? unless of course he is just quoting blindly
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
People who need to ask obviously do not know about construction, let alone costing. Go google and refer to the footnotes in L&S quarterly updates. Not going to spoonfeed you.
No point deflecting the topic.
Please let all the readers here know at what level of pricing you think that George Lim signed his construction contract for his GCB. 2010 prices ? OR 3Q 2012 prices?
As you can see, when confronted with the same numbers they quoted, they back off, they start asking you to go find out information which he doesnt even have a clue.
If thats not enough, he started diverting the discussion into asking silly question like when did developer of Binjai GCB conclude this contract for rebuilding.
I guess you guys already know the reason why I always avoid replying to certain landed property owner in this forum.
Again, dont let people tell you that cost of constructing modern GCB is as cheap as mass market condo because it isnt. GCB is a trophy asset, and owners always want theirs to be the best.
Hi Ringo...Ringo, don't be stubborn. Proper-t has already given you realistic data on the construction costs of various types of residential properties, including the GCB.
From the table, you know how much it is going to cost based on the built-up area of the house unless your expectation is so high that you want your whole house to be gold plated... :banghead:
As you can see, when confronted with the same numbers they quoted, they back off, they start asking you to go find out information which he doesnt even have a clue.
If thats not enough, he started diverting the discussion into asking silly question like when did developer of Binjai GCB conclude this contract for rebuilding.
I guess you guys already know the reason why I always avoid replying to certain landed property owner in this forum.
Again, dont let people tell you that cost of constructing modern GCB is as cheap as mass market condo because it isnt. GCB is a trophy asset, and owners always want theirs to be the best.
As you can see, when confronted with numbers, they back off, they start asking you to go find out information which he doesnt even have a clue.
If thats not enough, he started diverting the discussion into asking silly question like when did developer of Binjai GCB conclude this contract for rebuilding.
I guess you guys already know the reason why I always avoid replying to certain landed property owner in this forum.
Again, dont let people tell you that cost of constructing landed property is as cheap as mass market condo because it isnt.
Albeit a bit long winded, but when you start to resort to these kind of stamtents, I know you have conceded and realised that you have no counter to the facts that I have posed before you. Your notions about price and value and rich foreigners supporting landed owners have provided some entertainment though. Its not easy to throw in the towel and admit defeat which is why perhaps you have worded it in such a way to save face but no matter, now, serious people here can get on with discussing landed matters in a rational and factual manner.
Hi Ringo...Ringo, don't be stubborn. Proper-t has already given you realistic data on the construction costs of various types of residential properties, including the GCB.
From the table, you know how much it is going to cost based on the built-up area of the house unless your expectation is so high that you want your whole house to be gold plated... :banghead:
I have eyes to see the table, I am just asking him (for the sake of clarification) what does CFA in that table include and exclude. Does it mean construction the bare building or does it include fitting out the entire GCB.
If construction cost (including fittings) of today mass market condo is around 350psf, do you have reason to believe that constructing a modern GCB can be at the same price?
perhaps you can try going down to kitchen culture and ask how much does it cost to retro fit a kitchen in GCB.
Based on your statement below, it is clear that you have never built your own landed property before. So I think it is no point in talking to you any further. :beats-me-man:
I have eyes to see the table, I am just asking him (for the sake of clarification) what does CFA in that table include and exclude. Does it mean construction the bare building or does it include fitting out the entire GCB.
If construction cost (including fittings) of today mass market condo is around 350psf, do you have reason to believe that constructing a modern GCB can be at the same price?
perhaps you can try going down to kitchen culture and ask how much does it cost to retro fit a kitchen in GCB.
Based on your statement below, it is clear that you have never built your own landed property before. So I think it is no point in talking to you any further. :beats-me-man:
lets not play all these cheap trick shot about what I know what you know. its like your word vs mine. really pointless
If you have reason to believe that construction cost for modern GCB could be done for $350psf then perhaps you could explain how
I have eyes to see the table, I am just asking him (for the sake of clarification) what does CFA in that table include and exclude. Does it mean construction the bare building or does it include fitting out the entire GCB.
If construction cost (including fittings) of today mass market condo is around 350psf, do you have reason to believe that constructing a modern GCB can be at the same price?
perhaps you can try going down to kitchen culture and ask how much does it cost to retro fit a kitchen in GCB.
You have eyes to see my table but don't bother reading your own link you have posted. Who is the one blindly posting? Even more ludicrous when you ask someone to explain something when the answer is right under your nose.
1. Go click on the link and read the footnotes below. CFA miraculously appears.
2. Do you see the source of the data at the top left corner ? Langdon & Seah who btw is the same source as the table I provided so assumptions are the same.
3. Could you point out to me where you derive that $350 psf construction cost includes fittings? Please define fittings.
4. Do you think that the 3Q 2012 construction cost is at the same level as 2010?
Please do not get yourself confused by those who keep telling you that rebuilding a GCB is as cheap as mass market condo.
Based on BCA website, the average cost of building a rise rise flat (HDB) is in the region of S$210psf. Do remember to read the fine print to get a better understanding of what you are comparing.
http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/dls_intl_3Q12.pdf (http://www.bca.gov.sg/keyconstructioninfo/others/dls_intl_3Q12.pdf)
Average mass market condo construction cost is around 350psf etc.
So for GCB that uses exotic grade A materials and designers fitting, lighting etc, do you think you can still build it for 350psf??
numbers doesnt lie, only those who misinterpret them do.u
Appreciate if you could just stick with your table and dont muddle your table with the link I posted.
When you post a table like this, pleae post the link to the source and dont just cut out what you want to see and ignore other information.
And yes, what does the CFA in the table mean?
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
You have eyes to see my table but don't bother reading your own link you have posted. Who is the one blindly posting? Even more ludicrous when you ask someone to explain something when the answer is right under your nose.
1. Go click on the link and read the footnotes below. CFA miraculously appears.
2. Do you see the source of the data at the top left corner ? Langdon & Seah who btw is the same source as the table I provided so assumptions are the same.
3. Could you point out to me where you derive that $350 psf construction cost includes fittings? Please define fittings.
4. Do you think that the 3Q 2012 construction cost is at the same level as 2010?
u What do you think the below statement is for?
do remember to read the fine print to get a better understanding of what you are comparing.
What do you think the below statement is for?
do remember to read the fine print to get a better understanding of what you are comparing.
Are you talking to yourself? Why bother helping people if they don't want to help themselves? If you have taken the time to read the fine print in your own link, then you would know what CFA stands for.
Its quite laughable that you make this statement as someone who brings up 3Q2012 data to compare against 2010 data does not seem to grasp what ' a better understanding of what you are comparing' actually means.
This is what I call a desperate and ridicules attempt to make himself sound knowledgeable.
Honestly if I didnt read what I have posted, why would I ask reader to read those fine print? :doh:
Plus, does he even know the there is not standard definition for CFA in report on cost estimate?
So my question back to him again is, what is the definition of CFA in the table he posted earlier? And why didnt he post the entire report?
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/constructioncost_zps898c1dc7.jpg
I can understand why you are making such a big deal about CFA because you really have no clue on how to tackle the question on why you are using irrelevant 3Q 2012 data to compare with 2010. As if the readers here really care about CFA.
It is very clear that you called bullman out on his estimated profit for the binjai bungalow sale and construction cost figure and when I brought conclusive data to prove you wrong, you cloud it up with 3Q 2012 figures which doesn't even show construction cost for detached houses.
You can spare yourself the embarassment. Just continuing on will reveal to more readers what your true character and intentions are. History has shown in this forum that people who make rude remarks and try to talk down the market end up being disgraced and fade into obscurity. Its your choice.
Anybody who is interested in find out more information about construction cost, you can read this article. And remember to read those fine print or foot note so that you know what is the meaning of CFA.
http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2012.pdf
Lets not let those who are blinded blind you further.
http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/3443/2012constructioncost.jpg
The binjai bungalow was under construction in 2010 and TOP in Jun2011.
We are looking at the construction cost back in 2010.
Why are you showing us figures as at 3Q 2012?
Can already predict what is coming.
According to URA website, date which permission was granted was on 28 Sep 2010, so I would presume the construction can only start after that date.
P230210-34G2-Z000 28-Sep-10 Written Permission ES20100223R0215 MK16 99978L 68 BINJAI PARK PROPOSED ERECTION OF A 2 STOREY DETACHED DWELLING HOUSE WITH A BASEMENT & SWIMMING POOL
Does anyone know where did Proper-T got the idea that TOP for 68 Binjai Park was Jun 2011, or did he made up the date himself?
For those interested to know the cost of construction in 2010, you can also refer to this. Which according to the article, the cost ranges from $3100 to $5050/m2, very little different from the cost in 2012.
http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf
Address : 68 BINJAI PARK
Site Area : 1,285.2 m2
GFA : 1,333.46 m2 (http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432)
Purchase Price : $15,850,000
Stamp Duty : $470100
Construction Cost : est. $5050 (http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf) / m2 x 1333.46 = $6,733,973
Other Cost* : $3,000,000
Total Cost = $26,054,073
(*) Legal and professional fees Development charges Authority fees Finance costs Loose furniture, fittings and works of art Tenancy work Site infrastructure work Diversion of existing services Green Mark Cost Premiums Resident site staff cost Models andprototypes Future cost escalation Goods and Services Tax.
Sold (27-Mar-12) : $31,000,000.
Estimated Profit : $4,945,927 (excluding agent commission)
Wow...Finally doing some real research but to no avail.
TOP Jun 2011
Two Freehold GCBs Sold One For $60.6m, The Other For $31m
By MrProperty.SG (http://mrproperty.sg/author/mrproperty-sg/) On 13 April, 2012 · Leave a Comment (http://mrproperty.sg/two-freehold-gcbs-sold-one-for-60-6m-the-other-for-31m/#comments)
Two Good Class Bungalows (GCBs) have been transacted recently one at Ridout Road, which is said to have fetched about $60.6 million, or $1,490 per square foot (psf), on a land area of 40,679 sq ft, and another at Binjai Park, which has sold for $31 million, or $1,550 psf. Both bungalows are freehold.
In absolute price quantum, the $60.6 million for the Ridout property, which is near Holland Road, is the highest fetched for a GCB since December 2010, when 3 Leedon Park changed hands at $61.4 million.
The two-storey bungalow at Ridout Road is said to be more than 20 years old. It has five bedrooms, a tennis court and swimming pool. Its seller is former Goldman Sachs banker Thomas Chan, who last year gained control of the property following the conclusion of a long-running legal battle between the former owner Agus Anwar and another party to whom Mr Anwar had earlier granted an option.
Mr Chan picked up the property for $37 million based on an option granted to him in 2009.
In the latest transaction Mr Chan is understood to have sold the property to Tecity Group, which is controlled by the family of the late OCBC chairman Tan Chin Tuan. The site can potentially be subdivided to accommodate redevelopment into two GCBs.
The Binjai Park bungalow, which sits on 20,001 sq ft of land, received its Temporary Occupation Permit in June last year. It was sold by GCB investor George Lim, who developed the property.
The bungalow has attained the Building and Construction Authoritys highest eco-friendly award, the Greenmark Platinum Award. The house features 214 solar panels on the roof, uses recycled rain water and LED lighting.
All glass windows and doors have double glazing, which cuts down the heat and noise. It also utilises chlorine-free pool sanitising equipment. The bungalow was designed by Lim Hong Kian of Designshop Architects.
It has six bedrooms, a gym, home theatre, steam room, lift, and dehumidifiers in all rooms. The bungalow has a gross floor area of about 14,300 sq ft spread across two storeys and a basement
The costing and construction contract would have been firmed up way before the written permission which means that the construction cost figures in your Dec report are unlikely to have been used. A more accurate estimate would be the Q1 construction figures.
Address : 68 BINJAI PARK
Site Area : 1,285.2 m2
GFA : 1,333.46 m2 (http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432)
Purchase Price : $15,850,000
Stamp Duty : $470100
Construction Cost : est. $5050 (http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf) / m2 x 1333.46 = $6,733,973
Other Cost* : $3,000,000
Total Cost = $26,054,073
(*) Legal and professional fees Development charges Authority fees Finance costs Loose furniture, fittings and works of art Tenancy work Site infrastructure work Diversion of existing services Green Mark Cost Premiums Resident site staff cost Models andprototypes Future cost escalation Goods and Services Tax.
Sold (27-Mar-12) : $31,000,000.
Estimated Profit : $4,945,927 (excluding agent commission)
1. Why are you using GFA when the report specifically states 5050/m2 CFA?
2. Please explain how you derived other cost?
3. As explained, the figures in your Dec report would not be applicable as the constuction contract would have been signed way before 3Q 2010. Why are you using 5050/m2?
Address : 68 BINJAI PARK
Site Area : 1,285.2 m2
GFA : 1,333.46 m2 (http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432)
Purchase Price : $15,850,000
Stamp Duty : $470100
Construction Cost : est. $5050 (http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf) / m2 x 1333.46 = $6,733,973
Other Cost* : $3,000,000
Total Cost = $26,054,073
(*) Legal and professional fees Development charges Authority fees Finance costs Loose furniture, fittings and works of art Tenancy work Site infrastructure work Diversion of existing services Green Mark Cost Premiums Resident site staff cost Models andprototypes Future cost escalation Goods and Services Tax.
Sold (27-Mar-12) : $31,000,000.
Estimated Profit : $4,945,927 (excluding agent commission)
After going through the above example I hope you people are convinced that URA figures tracking landed price index is not a good representation of actual price rises or profit, as they do not capture the cost of sale (in this case I will include rebuilding A&A etc). From this example, URA will capture this transaction as 15m profit, but to the seller, he should be looking at around $5m.
When something is too good to be true, it usually is.
http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/787/propertyindex.jpg
oh dear...the chart again..I suppose that is your last refuge when you have nowhere left to hide and can't answer my questions
As I have stated, selective info doesn't prove a thing. I have already given an example of a transaction where a landed was sold for a good profit without any reno, A&A/reconstruction.
Please give substantive evidence that ALL or even a significant no. of the landed transactions in the URA index are inflated via reno, A&A or reconstruction costs?
If you can't, then your statement has no basis and its just your word against mine.
Dont let people BS you that landed prices has risen by 82.5% since 2009, because the same guy that BS you is tell me its around 32%.
72 Frankel Avenue - bought in Mar/Apr 2010 for approx $3.2m
Left it in original condition and didn't spend a cent on any reno or A&A/reconstruction.
Sold in Apr 2012 for $4.34m
Gross profit = $1.14m just for holding.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
This kind of thinking is not surprising from someone who :
Thinks that a single transaction is representative of the entire batch;
Has problems differentiating between price and value;
Thinks that landed owners needs to be supported by rich foreigners.
Wonder why he is suddenly posting all these other inane 'distractions' and not tackling the questions I asked in earlier posts ?
Dont let people BS you that landed prices has risen by 82.5% since 2009, because the same guy that BS you is tell me its around 32%.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
Again, you are drawing the incomplete/wrong conclusions. The run-up in landed prices from start 2009 Q1 to end 2010 Q1 was the steepest. The report that you quoted actually computes from 2009 Q1.
Its really astonishing that you seem ignorant of this fact as you have posted that chart of yours numerous times, and its glaringly obvious from there. :tsk-tsk:
In the 72 Frankel Avenue case, the % increase would have been more, in the region of 65-75% if the full run up in prices which starts from 2009 Q1.
Again, you are drawing the incomplete/wrong conclusions. The run-up in landed prices from start 2009 Q1 to end 2010 Q1 was the steepest. The report that you quoted actually computes from 2009 Q1.
Its really astonishing that you seem ignorant of this fact as you have posted that chart of yours numerous times, and its glaringly obvious from there. :tsk-tsk:
In the 72 Frankel Avenue case, the % increase would have been more, in the region of 65-75% if the full run up in prices which starts from 2009 Q1.
You are making one very unrealistic and incorrect assumption that all landed prices (be it new or old, cluster detach semi-d etc) are moving along at the same rate all the time, which we all know by now is not true because one of the main underlying support for the price increase we are seeing in landed property are contributed by owner or developers rebuilding, A&A or subdividing old landed property and resell or revalue them as new.
Hi Buddy,
Based on a super exagerated rebuild cost of $350 psf because he used the best in everything, compared to the market price of $250 psf. The profit margin is still over 10 M in 5 years.
No good enuff for you? :sleep:
According to the attached report, the estimated that cost of construction a detached house (excluding many other cost - see footnote) is around $3100 to $5050 /m2 and this is based on CFA not GFA (which I presume will be higher). This is a huge contrast to your exaggerated estimate.
So based on your experience in landed property, do you think the report is inaccurate?
http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf
Hi Ringo...Ringo, what are you trying to prove? When we read a report saying that landed property prices have gone up 82.5%, that will mean "ON THE AVERAGE" the prices have gone up by that much. Obviously, some landed houses have gone up more and some are less. Just like any properties, the valuation of a landed house depends on many factors, both positive and negative.
So you can still buy a landed house at a very reasonable price (based on psf) if you look hard enough and don't mind some of the negative factors. Instead of wasting your time trying to talk down landed property prices, go and get yourself one landed house and be happy. :doh:
You are making one very unrealistic and incorrect assumption that all landed prices (be it new or old, cluster detach semi-d etc) are moving along at the same rate all the time, which we all know by now is not true because one of the main underlying support for the price increase we are seeing in landed property are contributed by owner or developers rebuilding, A&A or subdividing old landed property and resell or revalue them as new.
seems like I'm not alone, the more we talk the more we vomit blood as the ears are shut. now he say we cannot assume that landed has run up steeply but keep telling ppl dont buy landed as it has risen more than anything else and it will crash hard.
what kind of contridiction is this...but he can go on and on and on....:o
anyway not going into this anymore...:)
Hi Ringo...Ringo, what are you trying to prove? When we read a report saying that landed property prices have gone up 82.5%, that will mean "ON THE AVERAGE" the prices have gone up by that much. Obviously, some landed houses have gone up more and some are less. Just like any properties, the valuation of a landed house depends on many factors, both positive and negative.
So you can still buy a landed house at a very reasonable price (based on psf) if you look hard enough and don't mind some of the negative factors. Instead of wasting your time trying to talk down landed property prices, go and get yourself one landed house and be happy. :doh:
Hi Ringo...Ringo, what are you trying to prove? When we read a report saying that landed property prices have gone up 82.5%, that will mean "ON THE AVERAGE" the prices have gone up by that much. Obviously, some landed houses have gone up more and some are less. Just like any properties, the valuation of a landed house depends on many factors, both positive and negative.
So you can still buy a landed house at a very reasonable price (based on psf) if you look hard enough and don't mind some of the negative factors. Instead of wasting your time trying to talk down landed property prices, go and get yourself one landed house and be happy. :doh:
82.5% is average? so some might be more than 100%?
Hi Ringo...Ringo, what are you trying to prove? When we read a report saying that landed property prices have gone up 82.5%, that will mean "ON THE AVERAGE" the prices have gone up by that much. Obviously, some landed houses have gone up more and some are less. Just like any properties, the valuation of a landed house depends on many factors, both positive and negative.
So you can still buy a landed house at a very reasonable price (based on psf) if you look hard enough and don't mind some of the negative factors. Instead of wasting your time trying to talk down landed property prices, go and get yourself one landed house and be happy. :doh:
I can fully understand that those who have vested interest in landed property would choose to believe that they wish to believe, they will chose to generate tables to show sexy numbers as if they are capable of timing the market (that is knowing and buying at the bottom of the property cycle)
However that doesnt mean that others in this forum cant discuss facts to bust the myth of landed property prices index
Using Binjai Park GCB example, I have already prove that URA statistic on landed property is misleading as it doesnt capture the rebuilding cost of landed property before it was resold. For Binjai GCB, those blinded will choose to believe that the same property appreciated by around 100% or 15m in profit within i2 to 3 years. While those who dare questioned those numbers will see that owners has pump in huge amount of time and money into rebuilding the GCB before selling it for around 5 to 6m profit.
Like I said before, number doesnt lies, only those who misinterpret them do.
seems like I'm not alone, the more we talk the more we vomit blood as the ears are shut. now he say we cannot assume that landed has run up steeply but keep telling ppl dont buy landed as it has risen more than anything else and it will crash hard.
what kind of contridiction is this...but he can go on and on and on....:o
anyway not going into this anymore...:)
putting 2 blinds together doesnt give them better vision.
When you buy a property A for 2m, you spend 1m redo the property and then sell it for 4m, do you consider that as 100% profit or 30%?
I can fully understand that those who have vested interest in landed property would choose to believe that they wish to believe, they will chose to generate tables to show sexy numbers as if they are capable of timing the market (that is knowing and buying at the bottom of the property cycle)
However that doesnt mean that others in this forum cant discuss facts to bust the myth of landed property prices index
Using Binjai Park GCB example, I have already prove that URA statistic on landed property is misleading as it doesnt capture the rebuilding cost of landed property before it was resold. For Binjai GCB, those blinded will choose to believe that the same property appreciated by around 100% or 15m in profit within i2 to 3 years. While those who dare questioned those numbers will see that owners has pump in huge amount of time and money into rebuilding the GCB before selling it for around 5 to 6m profit.
Like I said before, number doesnt lies, only those who misinterpret them do.
Is this how you intrepret statistics? One example PROVES your point?
I have also listed one example but do I make such claims?
Please give the readers here more credit and show us substantive evidence that either all or a significant majority of the landed transactions are inflated. If not, then please stop your continuous repetition of the same points and charts over and over again.
Btw, your example is flawed as you are using the wrong cost figures. I am sure readers here would like to know the answers to the questions appended below:
Address : 68 BINJAI PARK
Site Area : 1,285.2 m2
GFA : 1,333.46 m2 (http://www.greenmark.sg/property-detail.php?id=432)
Purchase Price : $15,850,000
Stamp Duty : $470100
Construction Cost : est. $5050 (http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf) / m2 x 1333.46 = $6,733,973
Other Cost* : $3,000,000
Total Cost = $26,054,073
(*) Legal and professional fees Development charges Authority fees Finance costs Loose furniture, fittings and works of art Tenancy work Site infrastructure work Diversion of existing services Green Mark Cost Premiums Resident site staff cost Models andprototypes Future cost escalation Goods and Services Tax.
Sold (27-Mar-12) : $31,000,000.
Estimated Profit : $4,945,927 (excluding agent commission)
1. Why are you using GFA when the report specifically states 5050/m2 CFA?
2. Please explain how you derived other cost?
3. As explained, the figures in your Dec report would not be applicable as the constuction contract would have been signed way before 3Q 2010. Why are you using 5050/m2?
Would be interesting to find out if there is any transaction of land only
obviously that someone who keep bugging me about CFA and GFA doesnt know that if I use GFA/m2 cost to calculate, cost for rebuilding Binjai Park GCB will be much higher.
Take for example
Luxury condo
CFA : 2850-3850/m2
GFA : 3800-5200/m2
http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf
By asking such pointless and insignificant question only goes show that some landed property owners here are too afraid to confront the truth and choose to live in self-denial.
obviously that someone who keep bugging me about CFA and GFA doesnt know that if I use GFA/m2 cost to calculate, cost for rebuilding Binjai Park GCB will be much higher.
Take for example
Luxury condo
CFA : 2850-3850/m2
GFA : 3800-5200/m2
http://rlb.com/rlb.com/pdf/research/RLB_Singapore_Report_December_2010.pdf
By asking such pointless and insignificant question only goes show that some landed property owners here are too afraid to confront the truth and choose to live in self-denial.
Why are you are still using :
1. Q3 2010 construction figures when I have explained that its not applicable
2. Why are you using luxury condos to illustrate when we are talking about detached houses?
Please let us know what are the GFA cost figures for detached houses in the correct time period (q1 2010) then or are you afraid to confront the truth?
You still have not told us how you derived the Other Cost in your computations.
Let's take a break and relax.
Two Men And A Lady
Two Italian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The two fought and one KILLED the other to have the lady.
Two American men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- They both had the lady TOGETHER.
Two French men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- They killed the lady to have EACH OTHER.
Two Indonesian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man claimed that island is independent and took the lady as his advisor.
- The second man swam to another island to search for jobs.
Two Thai men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man rented the lady to the second man for 2 baht a night.
Two Filipino men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man kidnapped the lady and asked for ransom from the other man.
Two Malaysian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The lady ACCUSED the first man of sodomizing the other because she was rejected by both.
Two Singaporean men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The two men are still waiting for instructions from the GOVERNMENT on how to proceed.
Let's take a break and relax.
Two Men And A Lady
Two Italian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The two fought and one KILLED the other to have the lady.
Two American men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- They both had the lady TOGETHER.
Two French men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- They killed the lady to have EACH OTHER.
Two Indonesian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man claimed that island is independent and took the lady as his advisor.
- The second man swam to another island to search for jobs.
Two Thai men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man rented the lady to the second man for 2 baht a night.
Two Filipino men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The first man kidnapped the lady and asked for ransom from the other man.
Two Malaysian men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The lady ACCUSED the first man of sodomizing the other because she was rejected by both.
Two Singaporean men and a lady stranded on a desert island;
- The two men are still waiting for instructions from the GOVERNMENT on how to proceed.
Thanks for the break. The landed forums used to be a nice and friendly place for discussion. All it takes is one subversive element with a hidden agenda...sigh
I can fully understand that those who have vested interest in landed property would choose to believe that they wish to believe, they will chose to generate tables to show sexy numbers as if they are capable of timing the market (that is knowing and buying at the bottom of the property cycle)
However that doesnt mean that others in this forum cant discuss facts to bust the myth of landed property prices index
Using Binjai Park GCB example, I have already prove that URA statistic on landed property is misleading as it doesnt capture the rebuilding cost of landed property before it was resold. For Binjai GCB, those blinded will choose to believe that the same property appreciated by around 100% or 15m in profit within i2 to 3 years. While those who dare questioned those numbers will see that owners has pump in huge amount of time and money into rebuilding the GCB before selling it for around 5 to 6m profit.
Like I said before, number doesnt lies, only those who misinterpret them do.
then how about luxus hills? Easiest index. Initial launch price in 2009 was 1.6million. What is the latest price??
no rebuilt. no nothing
then how about luxus hills? Easiest index. Initial launch price in 2009 was 1.6million. What is the latest price??
no rebuilt. no nothing
glad you bring this up for discussion. May I know if price of Luxus Hills have appreciate by over 80% since 2009?
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
Maybe we can drop the topic and have a good weekend.
LKY vs Bill Clinton
One day, our beloved Senior Minister went to America for a meeting with Bill "Sex Maniac" Clinton. After the meeting, SM Lee approached Bill and asked:
SM Lee: Bill, let me ask you a question.
Bill: About sex?
SM Lee: No, lah! How do you put a giraffe into a fridge?
Bill: Dont know.
SM Lee: You open the door, shove the giraffe in, then you close it. Now let me ask you another question
how do you add an elephant into the fridge if you can only put one animal in it?
Bill: Open the door, shove the elephant in, and close the door.
SM Lee: No! You open the door, take the giraffe out, then shove the elephant in and close it. Now, if you were on a plane and it was going to crash because it was overloaded, what should you throw out? A VCR, A fridge, or 10 bags that were heavier than the other two added together?
Bill: I should throw myself.
Lee Kuan Yew: Got no parachute, lah!
Bill: Then of course the 10 bags lah!
Lee Kuan Yew: Wrong! The fridge. Because the fridge itself is lighter than the 10 bags but there is an elephant in it...goondu! Now, last one... there was this very beautiful princess by the name of Monica. One day, a witch cast a spell on her. Now anyone who was 100 meters away would die. Then this prince by the name of Bill decided to be a hero and save her. Actually he wanted to have sex with her later. But he died 300 meters away. Why?
Bill: Don't know.
Lee Kuan Yew: Because you throw the fridge on him, mah!
more than 80% bro. latest in nov-12 $3m for 1,615sf. launch was $1.5m i think.
glad you bring this up for discussion. May I know if price of Luxus Hills have appreciate by over 80% since 2009?
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
more than 80% bro. latest in nov-12 $3m for 1,615sf. launch was $1.5m i think.
recent transaction
Bought 2010-12-01 $1,270psf
Sold 2012-11-29 $1858psf
Around 42% in 2 years, after deducting SSD and Stamp Duty
My brother in law's house at Coronation Drive (7000 sf). Original condition (no AA).
Bought: Mar 2006 $382 psf
Sold: April 2010 $1000 psf
Now: At least $1500 psf (if he still keeps it)
recent transaction
Bought 2010-12-01 $1,270psf
Sold 2012-11-29 $1858psf
Around 42% in 2 years, after deducting SSD and Stamp Duty
Maybe we can drop the topic and have a good weekend.
LKY vs Bill Clinton
One day, our beloved Senior Minister went to America for a meeting with Bill "Sex Maniac" Clinton. After the meeting, SM Lee approached Bill and asked:
SM Lee: Bill, let me ask you a question.
Bill: About sex?
SM Lee: No, lah! How do you put a giraffe into a fridge?
Bill: Dont know.
SM Lee: You open the door, shove the giraffe in, then you close it. Now let me ask you another question
how do you add an elephant into the fridge if you can only put one animal in it?
Bill: Open the door, shove the elephant in, and close the door.
SM Lee: No! You open the door, take the giraffe out, then shove the elephant in and close it. Now, if you were on a plane and it was going to crash because it was overloaded, what should you throw out? A VCR, A fridge, or 10 bags that were heavier than the other two added together?
Bill: I should throw myself.
Lee Kuan Yew: Got no parachute, lah!
Bill: Then of course the 10 bags lah!
Lee Kuan Yew: Wrong! The fridge. Because the fridge itself is lighter than the 10 bags but there is an elephant in it...goondu! Now, last one... there was this very beautiful princess by the name of Monica. One day, a witch cast a spell on her. Now anyone who was 100 meters away would die. Then this prince by the name of Bill decided to be a hero and save her. Actually he wanted to have sex with her later. But he died 300 meters away. Why?
Bill: Don't know.
Lee Kuan Yew: Because you throw the fridge on him, mah!
:) :) :) :)
Dont let people BS you that landed prices has risen by 82.5% since 2009, because the same guy that BS you is tell me its around 32%.
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
from what I see in this table, a cycle can also be 10 years long. Although most are about 4 to 5 years in length. I hope we did not miscalculate it this time round :)
blackjack21trader
02-03-13, 05:30
There is a big buyers' pool for condos and apartments/HDB, but there are so many buyers for landed with that kind of budget :)
There is a big buyers' pool for condos and apartments/HDB, but there are so many buyers for landed with that kind of budget :)
Dear friend, this is my idea. Please return to sleep, thank you. :)
My brother in law's house at Coronation Drive (7000 sf). Original condition (no AA).
Bought: Mar 2006 $382 psf
Sold: April 2010 $1000 psf
Now: At least $1500 psf (if he still keeps it)
If you ask any landed property owner, they will tell you that the value of their landed has appreciated by 82% since 2009 as long as they are not in the market to find a buyer.
dont mind telling us what is the unit number?
No point trying to read into this as the poster is trying to massage the numbers to give you the false impression that buying landed property is like buying stocks, you can read the chart to predict the up or down turn.
One also need to ask, what is the point of comparing landed to non-landed using the same period, since both segment of the market doesnt necessary peak and bottom out at the same time.
Again, dont let the blind tell you where to go
http://i1292.photobucket.com/albums/b566/proper-t/Peaks_zps9110116d.jpg
Was reading an article recently and they are saying landed property market is driven by activities in the GCB segment, which mean that the market in general always take cue from the GCB / detached housing price movement. Perhaps that explain why smaller landed housing tend to alway lag behind during the pick up of property cycle. However when economic situation turn negative, they will also be the first to react, perhaps due to lack of holding power compared to the super rich.
Having said that, I still believe that a huge chunk of the price growth we seen in landed property are actually driven by buyer/developers tearing down old houses and rebuilding them to the max before reselling or revaluing them.
So this lead to my next question. How long can such modern landed property hold its value before they need to be torn down and rebuild again? 10, 15 years?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8096/8491119713_d433249926_c.jpg
I think built-up is not reflected in landed title deeds, unlike strata titles :)
usually you need a major renovation every 10 years and one rebuilt after 20 years :) But with modern techology and newer polymer pipes, I think can last 30 years without a rebuild for current new terraces :)
usually you need a major renovation every 10 years and one rebuilt after 20 years :) But with modern techology and newer polymer pipes, I think can last 30 years without a rebuild for current new terraces :)
Actually I do think modern landed housing which are constructed with tight budget and lousy contractors, cannot last as long as the older ones because the material use and also design. these modern landed are good to look at when its new, but they tend not to last the test of time as compared to classic landed property with red roof tile etc.
Actually I do think modern landed housing which are constructed with tight budget and lousy contractors, cannot last as long as the older ones because the material use and also design. these modern landed are good to look at when its new, but they tend not to last the test of time as compared to classic landed property with red roof tile etc.
yes i agree if you are talking about private owners vs developers :)
i saw bro blackjack21trader in another forum with this pic,
too cute not to share here :D:D:D
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/blackjack21trader/31-Mar-146-58-23PM_zps7d376fda.jpg
i saw bro blackjack21trader in another forum with this pic,
too cute not to share here :D:D:D
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/blackjack21trader/31-Mar-146-58-23PM_zps7d376fda.jpg
he very "black heart" leh... i have been hearing crash crash for so long.. i waited until my neck so long...
wait and wait and wait.. till now still dont have... where are all the landed experts that say it will crash?:beats-me-man:
he very "black heart" leh... i have been hearing crash crash for so long.. i waited until my neck so long...
wait and wait and wait.. till now still dont have... where are all the landed experts that say it will crash?:beats-me-man:
this time he say :D :
有价无市。
SHALL CRASH 40% BY 4 JUNE 2014 once Sellers realise no buyers for landed in the market.
玄天神子
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