View Full Version : URA review policy on EC
Not sure if this review will also affect condo.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1246450/1/.html
it will.
what will this ruling mean to existing penthouses with roof terraces?
Well actually the cry wolf on the Citylife EC is people never see the 1600qf roof top space.
basically the developer cannot build a unit with that space. minus that the pent house is around 2400sqf which is inline with most penthouse sizes.
frankly the 1600sqf roof top space are useless. restricting it the developer also cannot build a covered unit out of it.
People are all caught up with the sensationalism of the news.
it will.
what will this ruling mean to existing penthouses with roof terraces?
Nothing direct I think.
I believe a better and subtle rule to require development to have a minimum amount of communal area.
This should exclude car park :-p
Regards
Well actually the cry wolf on the Citylife EC is people never see the 1600qf roof top space.
basically the developer cannot build a unit with that space. minus that the pent house is around 2400sqf which is inline with most penthouse sizes.
frankly the 1600sqf roof top space are useless. restricting it the developer also cannot build a covered unit out of it.
People are all caught up with the sensationalism of the news.
It is not useless space. I have seen many many innovative ways of making the space very usable and comfortable.
If I qualify, I would like to buy at that price too and would do it without my daddy's help.
Regards
Well actually the cry wolf on the Citylife EC is people never see the 1600qf roof top space.
basically the developer cannot build a unit with that space. minus that the pent house is around 2400sqf which is inline with most penthouse sizes.
frankly the 1600sqf roof top space are useless. restricting it the developer also cannot build a covered unit out of it.
People are all caught up with the sensationalism of the news.
ura not happy developer is selling 'free' space that ura does not charge to developer.
There are serious implications with the loophole. What is the legal strata area for such units. The strata area determines the share values and hence the maintenance fee. When come to en bloc sale, the strata area will also determines the share of the proceed . Buyer of such unit must know exactly if the strata area includes the free space. Base on URA's explanation, the free space should not be included in the computation of strata area for such units
Can they also review the air con ledge to stop developers from selling more than enough air con ledge space.
In the case of the city life ph. Hopefully the guidelines will get developers to create 2x 1400sqft of built in rather than a 2800sqft of built in for future cases. Wonder whether this will have an impact on Haoyuan's EC to be launched.
ura not happy developer is selling 'free' space that ura does not charge to developer.
Its a given space. Under the GFA a % is given to developer to include into the living space. this is to forster out door living. thus u hav all the balcony etc. Developers been having this "free" space model n charging for it for ages.
The unhappiness is becoz its a EC and its a penthouse with a perceived 4000sqf. many people never know or care there was 1600sqf is roof space that cannot be covered. all caught up in this emotion thing. wah 2M wah so big wah so good deal cannot buy etc.
they all forgot or refuse to see that 1600sqf is plain roof.
In the case of the city life ph. Hopefully the guidelines will get developers to create 2x 1400sqft of built in rather than a 2800sqft of built in.
1400sqf is not much of a pent house.. u must factor in the height limit maybe u cant build the extra 1400sqf unit. coz hight limit dont permit at most this 1400sqf get distributed to the rest of the unit lor meer 10sqf or 50sqf each? developer still earn.
estate no pent house lor.. all the penthouse wanna be middle class have to pay more in PC.
Roof terrace only affects 1 unit. I think they should seriously look at the air con ledge issue which affects every unit.
Can they also review the air con ledge to stop developers from selling more than enough air con ledge space.
I second that.
Can they also review the air con ledge to stop developers from selling more than enough air con ledge space.Not just a/c ledge but RC ledge and super huge balconies (some units have 2 or 3???). Ridiculous... (PES and roof terraces.... :eek: )
First its DBSS, then its ECs. All this while PCs also got lots of problems. Can't govt see that developers are the biggest cause of these problems??? :scared-4: or they bo bian so tackle problems from buyer's point of view? :rolleyes:
First its DBSS, then its ECs. All this while PCs also got lots of problems. Can't govt see that developers are the biggest cause of these problems??? :scared-4: or they bo bian so tackle problems from buyer's point of view? :rolleyes:
Developers are not the biggest problem lah.
Which businessman wouldn't take advantage of any loophole given to them?
They are supposed to maximise shareholder value, not do charity work. For that, it is under Corporate Social Responsibility. That one can use profit earned to donate to old folks home .. etc etc.
The blame should solely rest on the inadequate response mechanism in the govt. bodies. If you need to take 2-3 years to realise developers are selling "bonus" area to the consumer, something is wrong. You are involved heavily involved in the Real estate business and your staff never visit showroom one ah or don't know what is happening?
There is no perfect policy. Loopholes will be discovered and exploited. What you need is the response mechanism.
his response was to investigate and "realize" they are profitting from free space at expense of URA pocket and communal spaces. However when did roof top communal space became a common fixture? He didn't talk about affordability of 1.6m loan on a 12k couple.
got to think deeper on rationale of his approach.
But it's a free market. If there are people fighting for buy useless roof top space, so be it... Better let the roof top space be sold, than leave it to the mc to maintain.
Its a given space. Under the GFA a % is given to developer to include into the living space. this is to forster out door living. thus u hav all the balcony etc. Developers been having this "free" space model n charging for it for ages.
The unhappiness is becoz its a EC and its a penthouse with a perceived 4000sqf. many people never know or care there was 1600sqf is roof space that cannot be covered. all caught up in this emotion thing. wah 2M wah so big wah so good deal cannot buy etc.
they all forgot or refuse to see that 1600sqf is plain roof.
.....you are a very good stand-up comic, better than the Mount Sinai one......people do not KPKB about the 4000 square feet......its the quantum....over $2M .....why should tax-payer subsidize someone who can afford $2M dollar condo?
.....you are a very good stand-up comic, better than the Mount Sinai one......people do not KPKB about the 4000 square feet......its the quantum....over $2M .....why should tax-payer subsidize someone who can afford $2M dollar condo?
Is the person buying the ph subsidied more than the non-ph buyers?
What about those guys with rich parents who buy first hand hdb, who buy private after the min period, while keeping their HDBs for rental? Do we go after them as well?
Do we test parents wealth before qualifying to buy HDBs?
bakasa2002
07-01-13, 21:35
Not just a/c ledge but RC ledge and super huge balconies (some units have 2 or 3???). Ridiculous... (PES and roof terraces.... :eek: )
I knew ab the a/c ledge but balcony are foc to developers too? :scared-4:
my understanding of the balcony rule is developer for every sqft of balcony space, 50% comes from their GFA limit, the other 50% is "given" to them. probably to encourage outdoor living etc. correct me if I am wrong.
my understanding of the balcony rule is developer for every sqft of balcony space, 50% comes from their GFA limit, the other 50% is "given" to them. probably to encourage outdoor living etc. correct me if I am wrong.
10% Balcony area is allowed above the allowable GFA for the entire development. Intent was to encourage outdoor sky-rise living.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc07-01.htm
this new measure simply means that pc & ec developers from now on cannot launch penthouses with roof terraces. No more 'discounted' penthouses - they will sell fully priced enclosed areas. at most max out bca's 5m rule and sell sell airspace as part of gfa.
10% Balcony area is allowed above the allowable GFA for the entire development. Intent was to encourage outdoor sky-rise living.
http://www.ura.gov.sg/circulars/text/dc07-01.htm
love this forum, always learn lots and plenty of gurus in our midst.
speaking of airspace, those double volume ceiling, is the airspace above part of GFA?
love this forum, always learn lots and plenty of gurus in our midst.
speaking of airspace, those double volume ceiling, is the airspace above part of GFA?
if you enclose it with a permanent structure ie concrete, yes - ura will charge developer will charge buyer. if removable furniture platform, legally no. but then feo gets away charging more leh
if you enclose it with a permanent structure ie concrete, yes - ura will charge developer will charge buyer. if removable furniture platform, legally no. but then feo gets away charging more leh
visited their watertown showroom long time ago, those steps leading up to the loft bed, are those considered removable funiture platform? the platform feels hollow but sturdy enough to take a human weight...
love this forum, always learn lots and plenty of gurus in our midst.
speaking of airspace, those double volume ceiling, is the airspace above part of GFA?
It's not GFA, but the void space counts towards your strata area... (ie, if the void is over your living, your living area is counted twice). Hence the popularity of 'lofts' amongst developers.
It's not GFA, but the void space counts towards your strata area... (ie, if the void is over your living, your living area is counted twice). Hence the popularity of 'lofts' amongst developers.
so the developers charge you double the living area and only use 1x the GFA limit? meaning that extra loft space is free for them but you pay for it?
so the developers charge you double the living area and only use 1x the GFA limit? meaning that extra loft space is free for them but you pay for it?
Yes, you pay for air...:(
visited their watertown showroom long time ago, those steps leading up to the loft bed, are those considered removable funiture platform? the platform feels hollow but sturdy enough to take a human weight...
Furniture is not subject to authorities' control, so it's at your own risk....
http://www.corenet.gov.sg/einfo/Uploads/Circular/CBCA111117.pdf
Read to link to BCA's take and control on "lofts"...
Yes, you pay for air...:(
fine lah, as long as the buyers no they are paying for air and adjust their offer prices accordingly.
The loft ceiling makes the whole unit brighter and more airy, much more useful than useless air con ledges that are too excessive.
according to bca, the first and highest storey is allowed 5m of height, all other units 3.5. this includes floor plate thickness.
so very subjective. if dev builds a duplex of 3m per level, then yes void spaces are chargeable as thats gfa foregone but calculated. but units with 5m ceilings shouldn't have airspace chargeable - i know for sure mine wasn't
i think they rarely build 2x 3m high. usually it's like 4.5-4.8m high with maybe a platform for the bed.
in such a scenario, how much GFA is used and i presume the loft airspace isn't double counted then?
Is the person buying the ph subsidied more than the non-ph buyers?
What about those guys with rich parents who buy first hand hdb, who buy private after the min period, while keeping their HDBs for rental? Do we go after them as well?
Do we test parents wealth before qualifying to buy HDBs?
Agree that it is not possible to go after everyone who slips through the cracks of the system and benefit from govt subsidies at the expense of tax payers. But the belated move to cramp down on the loophole in EC is a neccessary step to correct the inequality. Just like HDB flats don't have penthouse units for the privileged few with rich parents, ECs shouldn't have such units as well since they come with subsidies financed by tax payers.
Nothing direct I think.
I believe a better and subtle rule to require development to have a minimum amount of communal area.
This should exclude car park :-p
Regards
To maintain their margins, wouldn't developers charge higher on a psf basis in the future to make up for the lost "GFA bonus" or free space? (Of course subject to sustainability of demand). The impact on prices may not be trivial.
this new measure simply means that pc & ec developers from now on cannot launch penthouses with roof terraces. No more 'discounted' penthouses - they will sell fully priced enclosed areas. at most max out bca's 5m rule and sell sell airspace as part of gfa.
how will this affect prices of existing penthouses with roof or open terrace?
To maintain their margins, wouldn't developers charge higher on a psf basis in the future to make up for the lost "GFA bonus" or free space? (Of course subject to sustainability of demand). The impact on prices may not be trivial.
so in the end, new measure may push up property indices...
this is it no cooling measure, it is heating measure :D
Developers are not the biggest problem lah.
Which businessman wouldn't take advantage of any loophole given to them?
They are supposed to maximise shareholder value, not do charity work. For that, it is under Corporate Social Responsibility. That one can use profit earned to donate to old folks home .. etc etc.
The blame should solely rest on the inadequate response mechanism in the govt. bodies. If you need to take 2-3 years to realise developers are selling "bonus" area to the consumer, something is wrong. You are involved heavily involved in the Real estate business and your staff never visit showroom one ah or don't know what is happening?
There is no perfect policy. Loopholes will be discovered and exploited. What you need is the response mechanism.Agreed. I never say developers are the problem. They are the cause of these problems. Anyway, I'm suggesting govt should introduce measures to curb the problems starting from developer's point of view. Stop them quick once loopholes are discovered, rather than spending time debating. There was one measure that was introduced with no prior warning, catching everybody by surprise. That is decisive... :cheers5:
according to bca, the first and highest storey is allowed 5m of height, all other units 3.5. this includes floor plate thickness.
so very subjective. if dev builds a duplex of 3m per level, then yes void spaces are chargeable as thats gfa foregone but calculated. but units with 5m ceilings shouldn't have airspace chargeable - i know for sure mine wasn't
Top floor floor-to-floor ceiling height 5m applies only to GFR 1.6 and above. Low rise 1.4 is 3.6m for top floor. All other floors low/high rise max 3.6m. Maximum average floor to floor ceiling height possible for low rise condo should be 3.88m. Development such as bliss had maxed this out.
this new measure simply means that pc & ec developers from now on cannot launch penthouses with roof terraces. No more 'discounted' penthouses - they will sell fully priced enclosed areas. at most max out bca's 5m rule and sell sell airspace as part of gfa.
If roof level is meant for communal use then we may see more pools, BBQ pit etc at the roof level. Maybe a quota be set on how much non-communal vs communal space the roof level will set. That will give penthouses less privacy though
Roof terrace only affects 1 unit. I think they should seriously look at the air con ledge issue which affects every unit.
How about the "front porch" area outside the unit's main door. Do you think that is a good practice to have such a space typically occupying not more than 8 sq feet. Can put shoe rack or cabinet though.
Front porch at least still can put shoe rack or bench like you say. At the very least it can be utilised.
Developers are just maxmising profit by optimising the GFA with the use of duplex unit. Developers win big time and residents are worst off. This is so with those with floor-to-ceiling height of 3.6 - 5m.
according to bca, the first and highest storey is allowed 5m of height, all other units 3.5. this includes floor plate thickness.
so very subjective. if dev builds a duplex of 3m per level, then yes void spaces are chargeable as thats gfa foregone but calculated. but units with 5m ceilings shouldn't have airspace chargeable - i know for sure mine wasn't
Developers are just maxmising profit by optimising the GFA with the use of duplex unit. Developers win big time and residents are worst off. This is so with those with floor-to-ceiling height of 3.6 - 5m.
you mean even if gfa is calculated once for a 3.6-5m ceiling height unit, they can and do charge airspace or furniture platform space? that's bloody murder ain't it?
What is KBW doing? This is a half measure! Essentially this is a green light for developer to price their units even higher? KBW will be force to step in a second time......:doh:
The action by KBW is really a slap at all his URA officer's face. I am sure they were buying properties in the last 5 years. Started with Bay Window, Large balcony, and now super sized terrace of ECs. What's next?
like DBSS just scrap EC, problem solved.
and raise hdb income ceiling to 12k
ST:
A URA spokesman confirmed that the new guidelines on private roof terraces and enclosed spaces will apply to all non-landed private developments, not just ECs. She did not say when the new rules could be expected.
Developers and analysts were taken aback. "Because of one or two penthouses, the rules will be changed to restrict the creativity of all property developments," said boutique developer EL Development's managing director Lim Yew Soon. "There are buyers who want these rooftop spaces for small gardens or for jacuzzis. You cannot just throw away the whole basket because of one bad egg."
SLP International executive director of research and consultancy Nicholas Mak said that whether developers will stop the practice of including large roof terraces in their units depends on URA also restricting the size of outdoor space allowed per unit.
Slapping a charge on outdoor space without restricting the size allowed may just make developers boost prices to maintain their profit margins, he noted.
there is land area
then there is gross floor area (GFA) which is dependent on plot ratio + 10% free balcony.
1) so if we add up all the area in all the strata titles in a particular development is always more than GFA + free GFA?
2) when land sales and enbloc, i always read about psf per plot ratio.
why is developers always talking about psf ppr? when the actual psf is actually much lower, considering they can charged for ac ledges, communal area-turned-private, void space, 3% error tolerance?
so their cost per sqft is lower and subsequently their margin is actually more than what is being marketed to public?
given the 3% margin error in construction, i am wondering how the french side and the british side of the chunnel can meet below the ocean?
how many of us here actually received the surveyors' report from the developer indicating our units' size?
I asked from the lawyer, from developers, given silent treatment.
......"Because of one or two penthouses, the rules will be changed to restrict the creativity of all property developments," said boutique developer EL Development's managing director Lim Yew Soon. "There are buyers who want these rooftop spaces for small gardens or for jacuzzis. You cannot just throw away the whole basket because of one bad egg."
.....
very creative in huge ac ledges. Now are there buyers who want huge ac ledges?
very creative in huge ac ledges. Now are there buyers who want huge ac ledges?
yeah that's effed up. i always try to reclaim aircon ledges - timberdecked smoking area and ceiling & wall mounted aluminium storage cabinetry hovering over the compressors. leave just enough space for a very thin aircon man to do servicing :)
how many of us here actually received the surveyors' report from the developer indicating our units' size?
I asked from the lawyer, from developers, given silent treatment.
dun have meh? when TOP the surveyor report etc are the docs required before your lawyer or bank can disburse payment.. but i admit i only give a cursory glance to it.
yeah that's effed up. i always try to reclaim aircon ledges - timberdecked smoking area and ceiling & wall mounted aluminium storage cabinetry hovering over the compressors. leave just enough space for a very thin aircon man to do servicing :)
but usually to access ac ledge have to climb over the window..
but usually to access ac ledge have to climb over the window..
one was sliding door at corner of bedroom, the other was waist height wall in yard. new one at rooftop - that one i will turn into tool and gardening cabinet
There are still buyers who want jacuzzi and roof top gardens. Just that it doesn't come free anymore. Such a complainer. Not as if the developer did charity and gave away the roof psf for free or cheaply anyway.
dun have meh? when TOP the surveyor report etc are the docs required before your lawyer or bank can disburse payment.. but i admit i only give a cursory glance to it.
all i received from lawyers are surveyors asking to be paid, not the actual surveyor report itself.
Top floor floor-to-floor ceiling height 5m applies only to GFR 1.6 and above. Low rise 1.4 is 3.6m for top floor. All other floors low/high rise max 3.6m. Maximum average floor to floor ceiling height possible for low rise condo should be 3.88m. Development such as bliss had maxed this out.
how do they max it out? by making floor plates really thin? or just spend more on concrete walls...
there is no max absolute height for low rise is there?
There are still buyers who want jacuzzi and roof top gardens. Just that it doesn't come free anymore. Such a complainer. Not as if the developer did charity and gave away the roof psf for free or cheaply anyway.
obvious outcomes of this measure:
Developers will no longer sell small 2000sqft and below two storey penthouses of which the roof terrace is typically priced at 30-50% of typical unit $psf. Instead they will sell highest floor units as single level penthouses and use the ceiling as differentiation points. These units will be the highest priced psf in the development. No more landed in the sky at least not for OCR. For CCR may still have as garden terraces maybbe lifestyle choices
Buyers of double story penthouses will alway lose out on the space taken up by the internal staircase core/circulation space. Single level penthouses are better.
obvious outcomes of this measure:
Developers will no longer sell small 2000sqft and below two storey penthouses of which the roof terrace is typically priced at 30-50% of typical unit $psf. Instead they will sell highest floor units as single level penthouses and use the ceiling as differentiation points. These units will be the highest priced psf in the development. No more landed in the sky at least not for OCR. For CCR may still have as garden terraces maybbe lifestyle choices
there is land area
then there is gross floor area (GFA) which is dependent on plot ratio + 10% free balcony.
1) so if we add up all the area in all the strata titles in a particular development is always more than GFA + free GFA?
2) when land sales and enbloc, i always read about psf per plot ratio.
why is developers always talking about psf ppr? when the actual psf is actually much lower, considering they can charged for ac ledges, communal area-turned-private, void space, 3% error tolerance?
so their cost per sqft is lower and subsequently their margin is actually more than what is being marketed to public?
given the 3% margin error in construction, i am wondering how the french side and the british side of the chunnel can meet below the ocean?
how many of us here actually received the surveyors' report from the developer indicating our units' size?
I asked from the lawyer, from developers, given silent treatment.
i do get n pay for the survey fees leh. thats the one right?
Buyers of double story penthouses will alway lose out on the space taken up by the internal staircase core/circulation space. Single level penthouses are better.Then Cluster Houses are the most space wasting in terms of stairways!
yeah that's effed up. i always try to reclaim aircon ledges - timberdecked smoking area and ceiling & wall mounted aluminium storage cabinetry hovering over the compressors. leave just enough space for a very thin aircon man to do servicing :)
u are good! next time can learn to do that...
Yes, You got my point. Some even come with lift core too. :doh:
Then Cluster Houses are the most space wasting in terms of stairways!
think fragrance typical PH with large roof terraces will be no more....
Yes, You got my point. Some even come with lift core too. :doh:
u don't get lots of those being lauched nowadays. i dread having bulky furniture getting hauled up those stairs.......
i do get n pay for the survey fees leh. thats the one right?
not sure what you get.
a long time ago in the early 80s, there was this apartment called Victoria Apartment in Jalan Besar. You wont find any Victoria Apartment because the name has been changed to the current Jalan Besar Plaza.
After TOP, somehow one of the resident felt that the unit he paid for was a bit small, so he asked for his own surveyor. It turns out that there is indeed a material difference. A few owners got together and managed to get compensation from the developer.
Imagine if the individual has not asked for his surveyor, the developer would have gotten away with it.
I heard the story from my relative who was a first owner there.
btw, if memory served me right, my relative said the developer is Hxxg Lxxxg.
so recalling that incident, i always asked for surveyor report, but always kena silent treatment.
Developers and analysts were taken aback. "Because of one or two penthouses, the rules will be changed to restrict the creativity of all property developments," said boutique developer EL Development's managing director Lim Yew Soon. "There are buyers who want these rooftop spaces for small gardens or for jacuzzis. You cannot just throw away the whole basket because of one bad egg."
very creative in huge ac ledges. Now are there buyers who want huge ac ledges?
On 15th Jan we will know if there are buyers for creative a/c ledge, let's see what's the psf they charging.
not sure what you get.
a long time ago in the early 80s, there was this apartment called Victoria Apartment in Jalan Besar. You wont find any Victoria Apartment because the name has been changed to the current Jalan Besar Plaza.
After TOP, somehow one of the resident felt that the unit he paid for was a bit small, so he asked for his own surveyor. It turns out that there is indeed a material difference. A few owners got together and managed to get compensation from the developer.
Imagine if the individual has not asked for his surveyor, the developer would have gotten away with it.
I heard the story from my relative who was a first owner there.
btw, if memory served me right, my relative said the developer is Hxxg Lxxxg.
so recalling that incident, i always asked for surveyor report, but always kena silent treatment.
u r right. juz checked. have always only gotten the schedule of survey fees and not actual reports.
and the s n p states an allowable margin error of 3%.
his response was to investigate and "realize" they are profitting from free space at expense of URA pocket and communal spaces. However when did roof top communal space became a common fixture? He didn't talk about affordability of 1.6m loan on a 12k couple.
got to think deeper on rationale of his approach.
everything is politically driven my friend.
u r right. juz checked. have always only gotten the schedule of survey fees and not actual reports.
and the s n p states an allowable margin error of 3%.
for me personally, i dont pursue the matter vigourously as I buy, hold then sell as I dont stay in Singapore. so it is the next buyer who is left holding the bag.
However when my children study in Singapore, that's when I will pursue the matter, since it is for own stay.
so those of you buying condo for own stay, ask for surveyor report or engage your own surveyor. from list of survey fees received, engaging a surveyor cost only a few hundred dollars.
The action by KBW is really a slap at all his URA officer's face. I am sure they were buying properties in the last 5 years. Started with Bay Window, Large balcony, and now super sized terrace of ECs. What's next?
in civil service... just do your part. see anything wrong, who will highlight? highlight already kenah arrowed to take up the project. if succeed, boss takes credit, if fail, ownself take the blame.
never watch jack neo's movie? :D
yeah that's effed up. i always try to reclaim aircon ledges - timberdecked smoking area and ceiling & wall mounted aluminium storage cabinetry hovering over the compressors. leave just enough space for a very thin aircon man to do servicing :)
will the condo management make noise when you build all these structures at the ac ledge? i am thinking of creating an area for laundry in the ac area. can more be done?
how do they max it out? by making floor plates really thin? or just spend more on concrete walls...
there is no max absolute height for low rise is there?
AMSLis around 42m for GFR1.4. Bliss is 3.85m floor to floor. Floor slab is 0.3 thick plus maybe some cement tiling allowance total floor slab should be 0.35m. Net floor to ceiling height is 3.5m. Top floor floor to ceiling in some area is 4m. I think 0.3m floor slab is considered thick ba..
this 3% error is very bad for any buyer.
lets say I bought a unit 1000sf.
say error is 4%, developer will only pay 1% of what i paid. the 3% is profit for the developer.
Now lets say I pursue the matter, I get only 1% compensation, but what will the area be reflected in the strata title ?
will it still be 1000sf or will it become 960sf ?
if the strata title now changes to 960sf, i suffer a loss of 40sf as compared to my neighbouring unit who keep quiet, strata title still at 1000sf even though actual size is only 960sf.
If I sell my unit, would the next buyer consider my unit (960sf) or his unit (1000sf), if I charge the same quantum, the buyer would pay a higher psf and how
If I charge the same psf as my neighbour, I would suffer the loss because mine is only 960sf.
and how can I proof that the neighbouring unit is only 960sf instead of 1000sf? so I would be odd one out, the only unit with 960sf strata title.
So speculators/investors will not claim compensation as they would suffer bigger loss.
Now consider resale market. If a buyer finds out that actual unit size is less than what is indicated in strata title, would the buyer claim from the seller compensation?
The argument above also applies, the secondary buyer suffer loss of 4%, yet can claim only 1%. Would he do so if he has intention to sell in a few years time?
so nobody will claim compensation from the developer. and the 3% margin becomes pure profit for the developer
will the condo management make noise when you build all these structures at the ac ledge? i am thinking of creating an area for laundry in the ac area. can more be done?
a cabinet is removable furniture. no one can do anything about it
bargain hunter
08-01-13, 12:24
can't they just include building of a/c ledge, PES, roof terrace in the GFA?
we have been talking about the a/c ledge loophole in this forum for the longest time, only now they see big ec penthouse with big roof terrace then they MAY do something about it. :doh:
i see some mickey mouse units, already small, still have 2 giant a/c ledges and 2 big balconies.
KenoBiWan should just summon the deathstar destroyer at HDB and stop sales of ECs. HDB should just keep to public housing and leave private housing to commercial developers.
now it's a case of getting caught with a hand in the cookie jar and then start blaming the cookies for being in the jar. if HDB wants to earn record profits by having DBSS (back then) and ECs, then it has to bear the political consequences.
If govt wants to let 'poorer' Singaporeans to enjoy condo living, then govt should sell ECs by themselves and not leave to profit driven developers to find loop holes and sell high high... Don't make sense at all. DBSS like that, EC also like that. Haven't we learn similar lessons earlier. Once bitten, twice still bitten... :doh:
If govt wants to let 'poorer' Singaporeans to enjoy condo living, then govt should sell ECs by themselves and not leave to profit driven developers to find loop holes and sell high high... Don't make sense at all. DBSS like that, EC also like that. Haven't we learn similar lessons earlier. Once bitten, twice still bitten... :doh:
selling private properties isn't in the ethos of HDB. i had always thought DBSS were meant for suckers (i am only professing my personal thoughts and in no way, meant to defame or insult any fellow forummers)
thomastansb
08-01-13, 14:12
I think like you. I don't know why people go for DBSS. Twice the price of BTO, same class as BTO, maybe 10k in electrical appliances and furnishing. After 5 years, still a HDB.
EC is different. Maybe 2.5 times of BTO price but after 5 years, it is a condo. I pity those who bought DBSS.
selling private properties isn't in the ethos of HDB. i had always thought DBSS were meant for suckers (i am only professing my personal thoughts and in no way, meant to defame or insult any fellow forummers)
Centrale 8 at tampines got big big poster say walk in selection available. Already half completed :p
selling private properties isn't in the ethos of HDB. i had always thought DBSS were meant for suckers (i am only professing my personal thoughts and in no way, meant to defame or insult any fellow forummers)
dun have meh? when TOP the surveyor report etc are the docs required before your lawyer or bank can disburse payment.. but i admit i only give a cursory glance to it.
you can check out the as built dimension and area.. see if your unit is plus plus or minus minus in total Squre feet.
.....you are a very good stand-up comic, better than the Mount Sinai one......people do not KPKB about the 4000 square feet......its the quantum....over $2M .....why should tax-payer subsidize someone who can afford $2M dollar condo?
So what! U cannot afford or cannot buy ? So kpkb?
What u want? Pay hdb price get penthouse?
Balcony I can use. Roof terrace I also can use. Air con ledge how to use?! And isn't it electrically inefficient if they use system 1 condenser just so that they can justify more aircon ledge space.
.....you are a very good stand-up comic, better than the Mount Sinai one......people do not KPKB about the 4000 square feet......its the quantum....over $2M .....why should tax-payer subsidize someone who can afford $2M dollar condo?
What subsidy? I think giverment save tge subsidy! Coz i unit only 30k more unit, more 30k!
Also all get caught up with the 4ksqf! Its 1600sqft roof! Normal penthouse also. Around 2000-2400sqf. What. Actually becoz so big this unit maintance also pay more.
Actually i will say this unit subsidise the rest!!
Coz those roof space cannot build another unit anyway.
If so green eye ban all penthouse lor! But then got people cpmplain again. EC become underclass condo coz no penthouse.
Franky all just complain becoz either cannot buy or cannot accept there are middle class folks who have bettet back end help. And want penthouse at 3 bed room price?
Hah Hah thats funny!!!! Can be cheap dont be so redicolous desptate n cheap.
Initially I also don't understand why people go for DBSS and pay so much more, until somebody enlighten me. You see, DBSS, everything built for you, including cabinets, appliances etc (just like private condos), shower mixers + taps everything etc, just move in with your movable furniture and clothings.
BTO? You need to do renovation, get carpenters to build cabinets, shower mixers, taps, buy appliances, etc. That is COLD HARD CASH $$$ and you still have to spend time dealing with renovation!. And Just a simple renovation could easily costs >$60,000! These DBSS buyers do not have much CASH $$$ or not willing to spend so much CASH $$$!
For DBSS, renovation costs are included into property price and can loan at 1.0% p.a. If you get renovation loan, you need to pay >4% p.a.! This is the same reason for many OCR buyers who prefer new launch / newly TOP and pay so much more compared to resale properties! They don't have the CASH $$$ to renovate!
Give you the scenario: $700k for DBSS or $500k BTO nearby. Why so many want $700k DBSS?
Because if renovation is $60k, buyers of BTO need to come out with $160k cash (assume LTV 80%).
However, buyers of DBSS only need to come out $140k cash (again assuming LTV 80%)!
A difference of $20k CASH! But hor, pay absolute amount of $200k more! This is what we call penny wise, pound foolish! :banghead:
I think like you. I don't know why people go for DBSS. Twice the price of BTO, same class as BTO, maybe 10k in electrical appliances and furnishing. After 5 years, still a HDB.
EC is different. Maybe 2.5 times of BTO price but after 5 years, it is a condo. I pity those who bought DBSS.
bakasa2002
08-01-13, 23:17
To be fair, most dbss are in superior location compared to ec plots. This is what I have notice so far. Having said that, I would get a ec over a dbss any time. :)
To be fair, most dbss are in superior location compared to ec plots. This is what I have notice so far. Having said that, I would get a ec over a dbss any time. :)
not true, EC plots like Prive, Esparina, Twin Waterfalls are all in pretty good locations. even the latest City Life is pretty decent.
rymccondo77
09-01-13, 01:01
not true, EC plots like Prive, Esparina, Twin Waterfalls are all in pretty good locations. even the latest City Life is pretty decent.
Plus Tampines Trilliant :) - just next to City Life.
What subsidy? I think giverment save tge subsidy! Coz i unit only 30k more unit, more 30k!
Also all get caught up with the 4ksqf! Its 1600sqft roof! Normal penthouse also. Around 2000-2400sqf. What. Actually becoz so big this unit maintance also pay more.
Actually i will say this unit subsidise the rest!!
Coz those roof space cannot build another unit anyway.
.
actually quite true. agree with you.
Initially I also don't understand why people go for DBSS and pay so much more, until somebody enlighten me. You see, DBSS, everything built for you, including cabinets, appliances etc (just like private condos), shower mixers + taps everything etc, just move in with your movable furniture and clothings.
BTO? You need to do renovation, get carpenters to build cabinets, shower mixers, taps, buy appliances, etc. That is COLD HARD CASH $$$ and you still have to spend time dealing with renovation!. And Just a simple renovation could easily costs >$60,000! These DBSS buyers do not have much CASH $$$ or not willing to spend so much CASH $$$!
For DBSS, renovation costs are included into property price and can loan at 1.0% p.a. If you get renovation loan, you need to pay >4% p.a.! This is the same reason for many OCR buyers who prefer new launch / newly TOP and pay so much more compared to resale properties! They don't have the CASH $$$ to renovate!
Give you the scenario: $700k for DBSS or $500k BTO nearby. Why so many want $700k DBSS?
Because if renovation is $60k, buyers of BTO need to come out with $160k cash (assume LTV 80%).
However, buyers of DBSS only need to come out $140k cash (again assuming LTV 80%)!
A difference of $20k CASH! But hor, pay absolute amount of $200k more! This is what we call penny wise, pound foolish! :banghead:
but reno loan even at 4%, add up still cheaper than the $200k more right?
but reno loan even at 4%, add up still cheaper than the $200k more right?
certainly without a doubt. that's why DBSS are meant for suckers :banghead:
phantom_opera
09-01-13, 08:39
confirmed, chopped, stamped, DBSS are for suckers
my friend just bought BTO AMK next to DBSS AMK ... only 480k high floor now compared to DBSS AMK of 5xx-6xxk a few years back, no balcony, no bay window, no big AC ledge ..can borrow 90% for 30y @ 2.6% :p
and I heard DBSS buyers all young couples hoh :p they like to be spoon fed mah ... our new gen are 温室里的小花
温室里的小花
sounds nice.. not 草莓族？
actually not just the young generation. again the 80/20 rule, most pple when they see nice nice reno, they will throw money without thinking.
IMO it is better to do your own reno. You can choose the materials/colours/finishes that you like according to your budget. If you leave the developer to do it for you, confirmed they will give you the cheapest they can get away with. Which will start falling apart in a short time. End up having to re-do (esp the carpentry). Witness the complaints coming out about DBSS/ECs.
selling private properties isn't in the ethos of HDB. i had always thought DBSS were meant for suckers (i am only professing my personal thoughts and in no way, meant to defame or insult any fellow forummers)Then they should use their treasury to subsidize private houses... :hell-hath-no-fury:
Then they should use their treasury to subsidize private houses... :hell-hath-no-fury:
They should give free penthouse to everyone who serve NS.!:doh:
They should give free penthouse to everyone who serve NS.!:doh:
how about one free 4rm HDB flat on pulau ubin for each 5th child born to a family?
how about one free 4rm HDB flat on pulau ubin for each 5th child born to a family?
wah piang, give me i also don't want.
wah piang, give me i also don't want.
which one you dun want? the HDB or the 5th child? :tongue3:
the HDB on pulau ubin lah
confirmed, chopped, stamped, DBSS are for suckers
my friend just bought BTO AMK next to DBSS AMK ... only 480k high floor now compared to DBSS AMK of 5xx-6xxk a few years back, no balcony, no bay window, no big AC ledge ..can borrow 90% for 30y @ 2.6% :p
and I heard DBSS buyers all young couples hoh :p they like to be spoon fed mah ... our new gen are 温室里的小花
looking from another angle... dbss, ec, no need to ballot hor... first come first serve... no need pray to strike in lucky draw :D
rymccondo77
09-01-13, 11:52
looking from another angle... dbss, ec, no need to ballot hor... first come first serve... no need pray to strike in lucky draw :D
DBSS and EC also have to ballot.
how about one free 4rm HDB flat on pulau ubin for each 5th child born to a family?I'll take it man and convert to rental unit... Hotel or motel, whatever... Just lock a master room... ;)
DBSS and EC also have to ballot.
no matter wat, in terms of ballot, DBSS and EC should be easier to get than BTO right...
for those non sold out DBSS/EC, no need to ballot wat... just walk in right...
so if people want a easier ballot, then pay premium for dbss/ec lor
the HDB on pulau ubin lah
Last time nobody wanted ponggol and sengkang... Now see how hot they are....
Ubin may be the next hot spot.
Ubin may be the next hot spot.
north south east west also water front living :D
Last time nobody wanted ponggol and sengkang... Now see how hot they are....
Ubin may be the next hot spot.
and maybe you missed the complaints about punggol in the news two to three days ago?
i don't think punggol and sengkang are hot. flat buyers have no choice but to head there
They have a big mall and are well connected to the highways. Much more desirable than 10 uears ago when the birds don't lay eggs.
They have a big mall and are well connected to the highways. Much more desirable than 10 uears ago when the birds don't lay eggs.
much more desirable, being in relation to what it was 10 years ago, does not make it hot.
both are marketed as hot by HDB and MSM, out of necessity
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