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lancelot
28-12-12, 13:05
Sold at loss of $800psf or 21%!!!





Wachovia's $55m loss on Grange Road project highlights weak market. -ST
Dennis Chan

Thu, Dec 27, 2012
The Straits Times
SINGAPORE - United States financial services group Wachovia has sold its investment in City Developments' (CDL's) freehold Grange Road project at a hefty loss.
The sale, which is likely to cost Wachovia a loss of $55 million, underscores the continuing weakness in the high-end residential property market, despite hopeful talk of a recovery next year.
It is also a sign that Wachovia does not believe it can recoup its investment in Cliveden at Grange in the short to mid-term, after making a big bet on the property at the height of the high-end rally five years ago.
Wachovia teamed up with CDL in November 2007 to acquire 44 Cliveden homes for $432.4 million. Under the deal, which worked out to an average price of $3,750 per sq ft (psf), Wachovia's real estate arm, Wachovia Development, took a 60 per cent stake in the joint-venture company, Grange 100.
Grange 100 is the vehicle which owns the 44 units - a mix of three- and four-bedroom apartments and penthouses in two of the four towers at Cliveden.
Based on its equity share, a back of the envelope calculation puts Wachovia's investment at $259.4 million. In selling its 60 per cent stake in Grange 100 to CDL for $204.5 million, the average price works out to $2,956 psf.
That is a drop of 21.2 per cent from the price it paid in 2007.:banghead:
Analysts reckon the size of this sale at such a steep price drop will have an adverse impact on the Urban Redevelopment Authority's (URA's) private home price index, particularly the sub-index for the central core region.
Wachovia's actual loss may vary as the $204.5 million price tag includes advances it had extended to Grange 100.
CDL said in a statement that, in acquiring Wachovia's stake, it has taken a medium- to long- term view of Cliveden and has confidence in the project.
"The consideration was arrived at on a willing buyer, willing seller basis, taking into account the net asset value attributable to the Wachovia shares based on, inter alia, the financial statements of Grange 100 and outstanding shareholder loans," it said.
A search with the Accounting and Corporate Regulatory Authority shows that Grange 100 has accumulated losses of $121.8 million as of 2011, since it was set up in 2008.
The last time Cliveden saw any transaction, based on caveats lodged, was in April 2008, when a 2,842 sq ft unit was sold for $11.1 million, or $3,914 psf.
The 110-unit Cliveden was completed last year. URA data shows that the condominium is 80 per cent sold, at prices ranging from $3,265 psf to $4,313 psf.

hyenergix
28-12-12, 13:16
I just come back from hawker center at my west coast area (OCR). A lot more ang mo. Def more r moving away from renting in CCR. Rental could b not strong enuff to support e luxury condos in CCR. By e way chicken rice there is $3 vv $2.50 a few months ago. What an inflation.

roly8
28-12-12, 13:16
why not hold onto the property?

or no one renting their property at all?

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 13:22
Or does it mean more of different levels of Angmo coming into singapore as immigration gate is still open?
I just come back from hawker center at my west coast area (OCR). A lot more ang mo. Def more r moving away from renting in CCR. Rental could b not strong enuff to support e luxury condos in CCR. By e way chicken rice there is $3 vv $2.50 a few months ago. What an inflation.

hyenergix
28-12-12, 13:26
Or does it mean more of different levels of Angmo coming into singapore as immigration gate is still open?

I'm not too sure. Housing budget might have been cut too. These ang mo seem to b v comfortable in e hawker center n west coast plaza. I think e trend of rental decentralising has started. This cld imply sustained or better rental for big family units there.

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 13:30
They could be from the NUS staff accommodation at Kent Vale. They have just completed another two more tower blocks.
I'm not too sure. Housing budget might have been cut too. These ang mo seem to b v comfortable in e hawker center n west coast plaza. I think e trend of rental decentralising has started. This cld imply sustained or better rental for big family units there.

thomastansb
28-12-12, 13:34
High end rental cannot sustain one. In fact, already dropping based on URA data. City area rental now on a high side of 3k only. Suburban on the low side of 3k. But prices are double at CCR vs OCR. If rental is dropping, it is a big risk because at current interest rate & 30 years loan, you won't even have spare cash. If interest rate goes up, you are screwed. And if rental continues to drop, you are screwed x 2. Don't forget Altez, Skysuite, MBS, 76 Shenton all going to TOP soon. And Eon, V on shenton, the freehold robinson road condo (can't remember the name) all coming on board in the next 2-3 years. Just in CBD alone, we will see more than double the units in the next 3 years. It is going to be tough business for rental.

Btw, I only compare those studios near MRT, within 5 mins walk.

hyenergix
28-12-12, 13:34
They could be from the NUS staff accommodation at Kent Vale. They have just completed another two more tower blocks.

Maybe. It is a bit odd for me to c such a number bcoz west coast near e plaza had prev been a low income area.

This is good news for rental there bcoz expats like to hang out among themselves. Likely to have more expats there in future.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 13:38
3 bedder 2153 sq ft asking 9.5k. a similar unit is asking for 6.7m (3100psf) and claiming to be 10% off purchase price. piece the 2 info together, u get 1.7% yield.


why not hold onto the property?

or no one renting their property at all?

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 13:42
URA website shows that a similar unit was rented out at 9k in nov 12. so wachovia's sale price is at a 1.7% yield.


3 bedder 2153 sq ft asking 9.5k. a similar unit is asking for 6.7m (3100psf) and claiming to be 10% off purchase price. piece the 2 info together, u get 1.7% yield.

phantom_opera
28-12-12, 14:08
High end rental cannot sustain one. In fact, already dropping based on URA data. City area rental now on a high side of 3k only. Suburban on the low side of 3k. But prices are double at CCR vs OCR. If rental is dropping, it is a big risk because at current interest rate & 30 years loan, you won't even have spare cash. If interest rate goes up, you are screwed. And if rental continues to drop, you are screwed x 2. Don't forget Altez, Skysuite, MBS, 76 Shenton all going to TOP soon. And Eon, V on shenton, the freehold robinson road condo (can't remember the name) all coming on board in the next 2-3 years. Just in CBD alone, we will see more than double the units in the next 3 years. It is going to be tough business for rental.

Btw, I only compare those studios near MRT, within 5 mins walk.

finally, somebody is speaking the truth about CCR, what CCR needs is a full recovery in G7 ... if not because tight supply in HDB pushing up OCR ... CCR price would have crashed

roly8
28-12-12, 14:33
High end rental cannot sustain one. In fact, already dropping based on URA data. City area rental now on a high side of 3k only. Suburban on the low side of 3k. But prices are double at CCR vs OCR. If rental is dropping, it is a big risk because at current interest rate & 30 years loan, you won't even have spare cash. If interest rate goes up, you are screwed. And if rental continues to drop, you are screwed x 2. Don't forget Altez, Skysuite, MBS, 76 Shenton all going to TOP soon. And Eon, V on shenton, the freehold robinson road condo (can't remember the name) all coming on board in the next 2-3 years. Just in CBD alone, we will see more than double the units in the next 3 years. It is going to be tough business for rental.

Btw, I only compare those studios near MRT, within 5 mins walk.

the one with the most effective marketing WIN!

phantom_opera
28-12-12, 14:36
When D Leedon TOP, it will be a real challenge for rental :hell-hath-no-fury:

Again .. rich ppl may just leave it empty, same as buy gold mah :p

roly8
28-12-12, 14:38
When D Leedon TOP, it will be a real challenge for rental :hell-hath-no-fury:

Again .. rich ppl may just leave it empty, same as buy gold mah :p
hold gold, don't need to pay maintenance fee. :D:D
keep in safe at home, can already..

thomastansb
28-12-12, 14:44
The truth is out there actually. All in URA. I can't lie or bullshit also. Even though I have CCR units, it is a fact the rental is softening. 4k for Icon is norm but 3.8 or 3.9k can close also. For those committing > 1.3M for a studio and you need rental to sustain, then you are screwed if rental continues to go down (high chance if you ask me) and interest rate goes up (after 2014).

And CCR won't hit full recovery. We have a massive supply coming in 2013/2014. Demand? Not sure. But the massive supply is a known thing for sure. It is all in the news so these information is readily available.

And of course, there is a thing call property/economical cycle. I am very sure we are near the peak.




finally, somebody is speaking the truth about CCR, what CCR needs is a full recovery in G7 ... if not because tight supply in HDB pushing up OCR ... CCR price would have crashed

phantom_opera
28-12-12, 14:57
The truth is out there actually. All in URA. I can't lie or bullshit also. Even though I have CCR units, it is a fact the rental is softening. 4k for Icon is norm but 3.8 or 3.9k can close also. For those committing > 1.3M for a studio and you need rental to sustain, then you are screwed if rental continues to go down (high chance if you ask me) and interest rate goes up (after 2014).

And CCR won't hit full recovery. We have a massive supply coming in 2013/2014. Demand? Not sure. But the massive supply is a known thing for sure. It is all in the news so these information is readily available.

And of course, there is a thing call property/economical cycle. I am very sure we are near the peak.

thank you bro for sharing ... IMO garmen made a mistake in 10% ABSD ... it does not have any cooling effect on OCR but hit CCR hard .. of course now exclude those with FTAs ...just keep signing FTAs to silently reverse the policy??

Rysk
28-12-12, 14:58
hold gold, don't need to pay maintenance fee. :D:D
keep in safe at home, can already..

Also have to pay pty tax every year

thomastansb
28-12-12, 15:02
OCR are the worst. People go buy OCR instead.

Like Optima. Last transacted 755k. Rent out 3.2k
Citylights last transacted 1.05M. Rent out 3.6k
Sail last transacted 1.38M. Rent out 4k

Investors not dumb.




thank you bro for sharing ... IMO garmen made a mistake in 10% ABSD ... it does not have any cooling effect on OCR but hit CCR hard .. of course now exclude those with FTAs ...just keep signing FTAs to silently reverse the policy??

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 15:07
There will be more with the completion of vision, etc.
Maybe. It is a bit odd for me to c such a number bcoz west coast near e plaza had prev been a low income area.

This is good news for rental there bcoz expats like to hang out among themselves. Likely to have more expats there in future.

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 15:11
It really depends when and where you bought the CCR unit.
The truth is out there actually. All in URA. I can't lie or bullshit also. Even though I have CCR units, it is a fact the rental is softening. 4k for Icon is norm but 3.8 or 3.9k can close also. For those committing > 1.3M for a studio and you need rental to sustain, then you are screwed if rental continues to go down (high chance if you ask me) and interest rate goes up (after 2014).

And CCR won't hit full recovery. We have a massive supply coming in 2013/2014. Demand? Not sure. But the massive supply is a known thing for sure. It is all in the news so these information is readily available.

And of course, there is a thing call property/economical cycle. I am very sure we are near the peak.

Ricade
28-12-12, 15:15
for the case of wachovia.. its a case of wrong entry price and timing lah.. they probably did not do proper due dilligence.. someone inside the company made a grave grave judgement.. think of SH selling at 1800psf (for small units) and Bishan 8 condominium..

but other than that cliveden is actually a very very nice condominium. Given the right kind of marketing and management, i may even rate it as highly as the marq / rivergate.

Do not be too afraid of bad news.. there is always a silver lining for the shrewd investor.

Werther
28-12-12, 15:23
Something is not right in CCR.

My friend has a unit in Cosmo, opp great world, vacant for 4 month, no offer, asking $8k +. He told me used to go very quickly but this time since tenant vacated, cannot rent.. Kind of worry now cos every month need to pay cash for mortgage.

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 15:26
Tenants' comfort rental range is between $4-5k these days.
Something is not right in CCR.

My friend has a unit in Cosmo, opp great world, vacant for 4 month, no offer, asking $8k +. He told me used to go very quickly but this time since tenant vacated, cannot rent.. Kind of worry now cos every month need to pay cash for mortgage.

hopeful
28-12-12, 15:28
Something is not right in CCR.

My friend has a unit in Cosmo, opp great world, vacant for 4 month, no offer, asking $8k +. He told me used to go very quickly but this time since tenant vacated, cannot rent.. Kind of worry now cos every month need to pay cash for mortgage.

whats the unit size and how many bedroom?

Rosy
28-12-12, 15:29
More expats on local package and they are willing to accept it.

Even 6k rental is getting tough and many expats prefer new houses despite smaller living space.

thomastansb
28-12-12, 15:29
I bought Q1 2009

:cheers1:


It really depends when and where you bought the CCR unit.

Rosy
28-12-12, 15:30
I bought Q1 2009

:cheers1:
Congrats, would have doubled by now.

hyenergix
28-12-12, 15:33
There will be more with the completion of vision, etc.

Sounds like my chicken rice will become $3.50.from $3 by e end of next year bcoz more expats over there.

dtrax
28-12-12, 15:33
Large quantum rental >7k these days harder to rent out. Small is gd, buy too big in CCR die pain pain either vacant or shitty yield as news highlighted over n over again.

For CCR studio now easily 1.1-1.2mil. 4k on average is still okish. The only real MM unit for skysuites @ CBD in terms of quantum, averaging 700k+ can rent at 3k without any problem for those on housing budget cuts.

Massive supply of 1.8k units over 6yrs at least. Rental wise, everything back to fundamentals, with increasing supply and if demand does not meet it will be affected not doubt and it applies in all districts

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 15:34
Like Rosy said. Should have made quite good money. Bought one during that time. Already gone up by 90%.
I bought Q1 2009

:cheers1:

Werther
28-12-12, 15:40
whats the unit size and how many bedroom?

4- bedroom, size 2000 sq ft bah.

3C
28-12-12, 15:41
That's the reason I bought OCR MM or 1 bedderjb > 500 SF. Rent 2k still got 5% yield. Market now abt 2 to 2.5K.

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 15:41
Amazing. Price has really gone up so much. Bought a CCR 999LH 2 bedder of 1055 sqft at about $1200psf in 2011. Even suburb area is more than this. :scared-3:
Large quantum rental >7k these days harder to rent out. Small is gd, buy too big in CCR die pain pain either vacant or shitty yield as news highlighted over n over again.

For CCR studio now easily 1.1-1.2mil. 4k on average is still okish. The only real MM unit for skysuites @ CBD in terms of quantum, averaging 700k+ can rent at 3k without any problem for those on housing budget cuts.

Massive supply of 1.8k units over 6yrs at least. Rental wise, everything back to fundamentals, with increasing supply and if demand does not meet it will be affected not doubt and it applies in all districts

august
28-12-12, 16:34
Something is not right in CCR.

My friend has a unit in Cosmo, opp great world, vacant for 4 month, no offer, asking $8k +. He told me used to go very quickly but this time since tenant vacated, cannot rent.. Kind of worry now cos every month need to pay cash for mortgage.

what is the unit type? is he willing to sell at a bargain? :p

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 16:57
cosmo 4 bedder is 1679 sq ft. nonetheless, as bro dtrax pointed out, above 7k harder to rent out.


4- bedroom, size 2000 sq ft bah.

hopeful
28-12-12, 17:02
4- bedroom, size 2000 sq ft bah.

Maybe tenants moving to Martin Place Residence? 4bedder 1894sqft at MPR also 8k+.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 17:04
there are 93 adverts for rental for the 4 bedders at cosmo. something is indeed strange. i have never seen so many repeated ads before! :ashamed1:

there are 5 caveats for such units in the past 2 years. prices ranged from 3.24m to 3.525m. rental needs to be 8.1k for the gross yield to be 3% for the 3.24m unit.




cosmo 4 bedder is 1679 sq ft. nonetheless, as bro dtrax pointed out, above 7k harder to rent out.

amk
28-12-12, 17:13
Cosmo is a nice project. The 3 new projects in RV are moving away the tenants I think. Simple supply and demand. Just like Newton/Novena situation.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 17:15
for nov, 2 rental contracts for 4 bedder of 1679 sq ft at cosmo were secured. one at 8.25k and the other at 9.2k.

martin place 1894 sq ft surely cannot get under 9k rite? :scared-4: 3 rental contracts were at 9.2k, 9.5k and 10k for jan and feb.

but the 1722 sq ft 3+study would be a threat to cosmo's 4 bedder. bigger size, more spacious and away from traffic noise. new, more complete facilities and bigger compound! most of those (8 out of 11) are indeed tenanted out at between 8 to 8.9k.


Maybe tenants moving to Martin Place Residence? 4bedder 1894sqft at MPR also 8k+.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 17:16
but compared to nearby large scale projects, it really loses out doesn't it?


Cosmo is a nice project. The 3 new projects in RV are moving away the tenants I think. Simple supply and demand. Just like Newton/Novena situation.

amk
28-12-12, 17:33
but compared to nearby large scale projects, it really loses out doesn't it?

Yes lose out. The newer ones look better. Newer, shinier, tenants always prefer new. 8/9k are the same band of demand. (and, the one *really* in front of great world city is not Cosmo, bt something else that happen to be be new and large units too)
Although Cosmo owners dun really need to rent at 8k since most of them got it earlier.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 17:38
cosmo was a luxury for that very low pre 2007 psf level that 1st owners paid.


Yes lose out. The newer ones look better. Newer, shinier, tenants always prefer new. 8/9k are the same band of demand. (and, the one *really* in front of great world city is not Cosmo, bt something else that happen to be be new and large units too)
Although Cosmo owners dun really need to rent at 8k since most of them got it earlier.

DKSG
28-12-12, 17:40
but compared to nearby large scale projects, it really loses out doesn't it?

Bargain Hunter is indeed an expert - KUDOS !

Something I feel compelled to voice out about yields.
Traditional views of yields and how much it should be needs to be tweaked when interest rates stays below 1% for a prolonged period.

If you have been to showflats and listening to more amateur buyers you will understand where they are coming from.

Leaving tons of cash in the bank now is striking fear to many people as they see their $500K buying lesser and lesser things each year.

So, Office Boy share with you here : Yield should be viewed in the context of interest rates. If interest rates is 2.5%, your yield of 4% is consider worse than when interest rate is 0.9% and your yield is just 2.9%.

Got it ? If not, I also cannot help you liao !

DKSG

Werther
28-12-12, 17:52
for nov, 2 rental contracts for 4 bedder of 1679 sq ft at cosmo were secured. one at 8.25k and the other at 9.2k.

martin place 1894 sq ft surely cannot get under 9k rite? :scared-4: 3 rental contracts were at 9.2k, 9.5k and 10k for jan and feb.

but the 1722 sq ft 3+study would be a threat to cosmo's 4 bedder. bigger size, more spacious and away from traffic noise. new, more complete facilities and bigger compound! most of those (8 out of 11) are indeed tenanted out at between 8 to 8.9k.


Hi bargain hunter

Thanks for the update. Wow, someone managed to rent above $9k, must be on very high floor. My friend unit is above 22 nd floor.

Can u reveal how you can check the rental transactions? From sisv or property guru? Tks

amk
28-12-12, 17:54
cosmo was a luxury for that very low pre 2007 psf level that 1st owners paid.

In 2004, 1200psf was a lot of money, almost matching orchard road. ;)

Wheelock made a lot of money from this. In fact this is what triggered SPH to do pty development itself, since it sold times house so cheap.

werther, u dun know u can check rental contracts directly from URA ?? Just go to the usual place where u see caveats, there is another item for rental contacts.

Werther
28-12-12, 17:56
In 2004, 1200psf was a lot of money, almost matching orchard road. ;)

werther, u dun know u can check rental contracts directly from URA ?? Just go to the usual place where u see caveats, there is another item for rental contacts.


Thanks AMK for the info.

dtrax
28-12-12, 17:58
there are 93 adverts for rental for the 4 bedders at cosmo. something is indeed strange. i have never seen so many repeated ads before! :ashamed1:

there are 5 caveats for such units in the past 2 years. prices ranged from 3.24m to 3.525m. rental needs to be 8.1k for the gross yield to be 3% for the 3.24m unit.

So can conclude everything back to fundamentals?

★ 1. Now market buay sai absorb high rental rates 7-8k or more due to more expats or local package, smaller housing budget, decentralization, finance industry and the list goes on... If 8k still cannot rent, the only way is drop rental and drop selling price in order to entice buyers with gd yield [>3% at the very least]. Think many bros here also agree that those rental in this region and higher is kinda difficult to rent out unless anyone can show otherwise, that will be a good point of discussion

★ 2. The large quantum CCR >3mil will stay muted as long as the super rich FT are not hooting as much as the peak:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8351/8316824709_9ce5f911f7_c.jpg
Table 2.1: Stats never lie

Echelon should sell pretty well in the region of 1.2-1.99mil. As to why Echelon can sell but Sky Habitat cannot sell, I think we should see SH should be clearing units soon if Echelon sales result is damn rosy this wk with all the hype on nearby land parcels and insane HDB price support

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8498/8317891648_8a2bc61b85_h.jpg
Table 2.2: No FT here Hoot No Talk: 2012 FT purchases only 40% of the 2007 FT purchases

★ 3. No need think so much, small is gd. Get small rent out gd yield. Only those homestayers are hooting larger units or PH with PSF that makes sense in today's market [i.e CityLife Presidential Suite PH 4XXpsf vs 800psf for standard units]. Dont you think it is weird when u see smallish units can even rent as high as better non-MMs?

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8364/8317941172_096744d91f_b.jpg

Well can argue some maybe be due to furnish/partial furnish, patio/non-patio but smallish size is definitely gd to rent and the way to gooo

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:00
no wor. cosmo in 2005 was sold below 1000psf. i think it started selling before 2005? rivergate was first sold in 2005 at 1000psf so cosmo i think was sold before that and at lower psf?



In 2005, 1200psf was a lot of money, almost matching orchard road. ;)

Wheelock made a lot of money from this. In fact this is what triggered SPH to do pty development itself, since it sold times house so cheap.

werther, u dun know u can check rental contracts directly from URA ?? Just go to the usual place where u see caveats, there is another item for rental contacts.

amk
28-12-12, 18:02
Always back to fundamentals...
Although I must say, CCR large (or what I called "normal") size units are not for yields. The whole point is for capital appreciation.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:06
yes, as per what bro amk advised for the rental data information. from URA website. now all public info.

22nd floor should be not bad. however, now there are 2 factors. if its the stack which faces the cross junction, then traditionally, it would be harder to achieve above 9k becoz of road noise. if it faces the other side, all was bright and rosy but now pple start to think when the mrt station construction may start.




Hi bargain hunter

Thanks for the update. Wow, someone managed to rent above $9k, must be on very high floor. My friend unit is above 22 nd floor.

Can u reveal how you can check the rental transactions? From sisv or property guru? Tks

amk
28-12-12, 18:08
no wor. cosmo in 2005 was sold below 1000psf. i think it started selling before 2005? rivergate was first sold in 2005 at 1000psf so cosmo i think was sold before that and at lower psf?

Cosmo was sold between end 2004 to first few months of 2005,
Where got below 1000 ? 1100 was already the "preview" VIP price..

Rivergate, ur favorite project huh ;) I thought was around 1100

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:08
but now it seems there were many buyers who bought during the euphoria of 2007 and now needs rental support.


Always back to fundamentals...
Although I must say, CCR large (or what I called "normal") size units are not for yields. The whole point is for capital appreciation.

Allthepies
28-12-12, 18:11
Just a newbie like to share my thoughts see whether it make any sense

1. For CCR rental yield maybe not so impt as buyer pay in full without taking loan?
2. Follow from pt 1, CCR investor are looking at long term capital gain?
3. Rental yield impt for RCR/OCR buyers as they need the cash flow?

Feel free to comment and discuss

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:11
have leh, i remembered seeing it somewhere on realis. maybe bro dtrax can help out here if he is free. :) record low of cosmopolitan was below 1000psf or not?

rivergate have 1000psf lah. the bigger units in the former lippo block lor.




Cosmo was sold between end 2004 to first few months of 2005,
Where got below 1000 ? 1100 was already the "preview" VIP price..

Rivergate, ur favorite project huh ;) I thought was around 1100

amk
28-12-12, 18:12
but now it seems there were many buyers who bought during the euphoria of 2007 and now needs rental support.

This group was screwed hard, especially if they were marginal in their cash flow.
During the time units with large PES sold at higher psf than one without, made no sense.

Personally I think the same is happening now for many OCR buyers, banking on rents covering installments.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:12
wide range of units and wide range of investors within CCR. cannot one broom sweep all. :)


Just a newbie like to share my thoughts see whether it make any sense

1. For CCR rental yield maybe not so impt as buyer pay in full without taking loan?
2. Follow from pt 1, CCR investor are looking at long term capital gain?
3. Rental yield impt for RCR/OCR buyers as they need the cash flow?

Feel free to comment and discuss

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:15
was? i think still IS. still have, interest rate go up siao liao.

yes, there are marginal buyers in OCR now. retail participation in stock mkt this year is lowest since asian financial crisis. all jumped into ppty liao hahahahahhahaha.


This group was screwed hard, especially if they were marginal in their cash flow.
During the time units with large PES sells higher psf than one without, made no sense.

Personally I think the same is happening now for many OCR buyers, banking on rents covering installments.

dtrax
28-12-12, 18:15
have leh, i remembered seeing it somewhere on realis. maybe bro dtrax can help out here if he is free. :) record low of cosmopolitan was below 1000psf or not?

rivergate have 1000psf lah. the bigger units in the former lippo block lor.

haha i happen to be damn free today n whole day Realising... those below 1k psf for Cosmo all in 2005 and considering most are largish units. I wont say it is record low becoz that was in 05, most units in other places should also be record low and considering 1.5k sqft at mid 9xxpsf is not really cheap at that time

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:17
thanks so much bro. response so fast somemore. just wanted to confirm with bro amk that there are units which were sold at < 1000psf. :)



haha i happen to be damn free today n whole day Realising... those below 1k psf for Cosmo all in 2005 and considering most are largish units. I wont say it is record low becoz that was in 05, most units in other places should also be record low and considering 1.5k sqft at mid 9xxpsf is not really cheap at that time

amk
28-12-12, 18:18
The story are all the same.
In 2007, CCR prices jumped in months. Ppl see making money so easy, those who can afford all jumped in. Traditional investors do home work, check location, check developer, check design, finish, etc. new investors just flock to buy.
Today, I see many ordinary sporeans are attracted to "pty investment" for the same reason.
You can make money everywhere you invest. But not when you just follow the crowd.

amk
28-12-12, 18:24
thanks so much bro. response so fast somemore. just wanted to confirm with bro amk that there are units which were sold at < 1000psf. :)

Ok I stand corrcected on this :) thanks dtrax for the info.

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 18:25
i also think most are buying without considering fully the consequences of lower liquidity and the restrictions. as bro DKSG pointed out, many are buying to beat the low interest rates in banks and maybe from losing too much punting in the stock mkt.



The story are all the same.
In 2007, CCR prices jumped in months. Ppl see making money so easy, those who can afford all jumped in. Traditional investors do home work, check location, check developer, check design, finish, etc. new investors just flock to buy.
Today, I see many ordinary sporeans are attracted to "pty investment" for the same reason.
You can make money everywhere you invest. But not when you just follow the crowd.

leesg123
28-12-12, 18:45
It really depends when and where you bought the CCR unit.
My CCR MM monthly mortgage is $1.2k. I dare dare drop rental to 1.3k also cover mortgage, u think at $1.3 k, flanked by great world, valley point, few bus stop to orchard or cbd, can fight for tenant? Can survive? Given my pricing will tenant who work inc bd will choose ocr? Anyone get the underlying meaning? If yes, good for u. Today i also good mood. :spliff:

leesg123
28-12-12, 18:48
Just a newbie like to share my thoughts see whether it make any sense

1. For CCR rental yield maybe not so impt as buyer pay in full without taking loan?
2. Follow from pt 1, CCR investor are looking at long term capital gain?
3. Rental yield impt for RCR/OCR buyers as they need the cash flow?

Feel free to comment and discuss
See my post above, i am sure most of ur quenstions answered.

DKSG
28-12-12, 18:48
i also think most are buying without considering fully the consequences of lower liquidity and the restrictions. as bro DKSG pointed out, many are buying to beat the low interest rates in banks and maybe from losing too much punting in the stock mkt.

For those who have seen the Echelon cheongsters doing Gangnam style @ Redhill, you will swallow your statements about High End staying flat.

If you have been going to showflats, you will certainly know that foreigners are starting to come back!

I can only say (from my office comfy chair) : Sit tight!~ The gush of cheongsters local and foreigners are coming !!! Big time !!!

DKSG

roly8
28-12-12, 19:07
For those who have seen the Echelon cheongsters doing Gangnam style @ Redhill, you will swallow your statements about High End staying flat.

If you have been going to showflats, you will certainly know that foreigners are starting to come back!

I can only say (from my office comfy chair) : Sit tight!~ The gush of cheongsters local and foreigners are coming !!! Big time !!!

DKSG

wa!

still got people buying? :scared-5::scared-5:

sh
28-12-12, 19:14
Just a newbie like to share my thoughts see whether it make any sense

1. For CCR rental yield maybe not so impt as buyer pay in full without taking loan?
2. Follow from pt 1, CCR investor are looking at long term capital gain?
3. Rental yield impt for RCR/OCR buyers as they need the cash flow?

Feel free to comment and discuss

I see yield as related to potential capital gain. If a property is offering low yield, it is likely to be overvalued, simply because it is not sustainable in the long run.:2cents:

dtrax
28-12-12, 19:14
wa!

still got people buying? :scared-5::scared-5:

Maybe see news at 8 for video shots of shwrm later?

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 20:16
it really depends on which part of high end. i don't see foreigners sweeping up the high quantum units leh.


For those who have seen the Echelon cheongsters doing Gangnam style @ Redhill, you will swallow your statements about High End staying flat.

If you have been going to showflats, you will certainly know that foreigners are starting to come back!

I can only say (from my office comfy chair) : Sit tight!~ The gush of cheongsters local and foreigners are coming !!! Big time !!!

DKSG

DC33_2008
28-12-12, 20:22
Is it a CCR or a city fringe?
My CCR MM monthly mortgage is $1.2k. I dare dare drop rental to 1.3k also cover mortgage, u think at $1.3 k, flanked by great world, valley point, few bus stop to orchard or cbd, can fight for tenant? Can survive? Given my pricing will tenant who work inc bd will choose ocr? Anyone get the underlying meaning? If yes, good for u. Today i also good mood. :spliff:

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 20:24
his description is CCR rite? looks like bot in at a good price. :cheers1:


Is it a CCR or a city fringe?

amk
28-12-12, 20:57
Btw how come dun see you updating on the NUS index ? This month CCR up by 2.6% leh

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 21:05
NUS index? eveything also i update? no lah. that one not me. me only in monthly new home sales figures and i applied for leave for this month. :ashamed1:


Btw how come dun see you updating on the NUS index ? This month CCR up by 2.6% leh

DKSG
28-12-12, 21:59
it really depends on which part of high end. i don't see foreigners sweeping up the high quantum units leh.

Sweeping up maybe too strong. But creeping back silently maybe the right description.

I just went Liberte yesterday. Sales is not red hot but more than 50% sold at ridiculous psf bought mainly by foreigners...

DKSG

dtrax
28-12-12, 22:12
Sweeping up maybe too strong. But creeping back silently maybe the right description.

I just went Liberte yesterday. Sales is not red hot but more than 50% sold at ridiculous psf bought mainly by foreigners...

DKSG

fwah fwah.. liberte PSF mai siao siao one... still can clear 50%?

Ricade
28-12-12, 22:17
Yea when the discussion mentioned Cosmo condo.. I also tot its the one in guillemard road.. That one is not CCR ma.

Anyways I re-read the post they mentioned Cosmo condo across great world city.. Well there is indeed a condo called the cosmopolitan there.

Figured they are talking about the cosmopolitan here.. And not Cosmo :)

proud owner
28-12-12, 22:57
Since 2007 I never have problem renting out my D5 properties,,,and at good yield..

Also. For at least1.5 to 2 years now, I have been arguing about rental falling in many OTHER districts, but always kana humtum.

I recall Devilplate used to argue with me ....he always said damn easy to rent (other districts) and that rent was getting Higher...

Anyway it is true that many expats have had their rental allowance cut...

proud owner
28-12-12, 22:59
cosmo 4 bedder is 1679 sq ft. nonetheless, as bro dtrax pointed out, above 7k harder to rent out.



Take away the balcony and bay windows, many expats find it too small



Their furnitures cannot fit it...

Werther
28-12-12, 23:00
Yea when the discussion mentioned Cosmo condo.. I also tot its the one in guillemard road.. That one is not CCR ma.

Anyways I re-read the post they mentioned Cosmo condo across great world city.. Well there is indeed a condo called the cosmopolitan there.

Figured they are talking about the cosmopolitan here.. And not Cosmo :)

Hi

Lazy to type the full name lah... Haha

By the way, also lazy to start new thread since all bros & sis are here...

I just go back from bangkok and went to see some properties in sukhumvit area such as sol 11, 15' and 'h' in sol 43 and outskirts in rechada area. Do u think is good to invest there? Bank interest is 7% tho... Think better pay cash..

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 23:00
now buyers don't look at psf, only quantum. :ashamed1:


fwah fwah.. liberte PSF mai siao siao one... still can clear 50%?

bargain hunter
28-12-12, 23:03
yah. they need 2000 sq ft, then minus the balcony and bay windows. lol.

but so far, only big units rental is struggling? smaller ones not so much?




Take away the balcony and bay windows, many expats find it too small



Their furnitures cannot fit it...

proud owner
28-12-12, 23:10
Big units target families. Which come with furnitures.

Small units target singles or couples which most of the time don't have much furnitures,,,


Hence smaller units rent out faster.

Why do u think for 10 to 15 k rental allowance for expats with family, they go for older projects?

Cos less unless balcony n bay windows



QUOTE=bargain hunter]yah. they need 2000 sq ft, then minus the balcony and bay windows. lol.

but so far, only big units rental is struggling? smaller ones not so much?[/QUOTE]

ekl2ekl2
28-12-12, 23:15
now buyers don't look at psf, only quantum. :ashamed1:

Fully agree.

Shrinking MMs, 400 sqfeet plus the norm everywhere nowadays and 2000 plus pfs still around $1m.

In future, 300 sfeet plus MMs esp in CCR will be the norm and 3000plus pfs will still be around $1m.

Many can afford this kind of quantum.

pfs value comes into play more for the much larger units.

flxcat
28-12-12, 23:28
Fully agree.

Shrinking MMs, 400 sqfeet plus the norm everywhere nowadays and 2000 plus pfs still around $1m.

In future, 300 sfeet plus MMs esp in CCR will be the norm and 3000plus pfs will still be around $1m.

Many can afford this kind of quantum.

pfs value comes into play more for the much larger units.

Totally agreed. When the investment is targeting at the typical investors, buying small units like MM and make sure is in the range of $700k to $800k, chance of capital gain and selling off is much easier than bigger 1bedroom that is $1m. Everyone is looking at quantum and with the mindset that MM, studio or 1bedder, rental is about the same in the same vicinity, so smaller sf pay much less :cheers4:

DKSG
28-12-12, 23:36
fwah fwah.. liberte PSF mai siao siao one... still can clear 50%?

dtrax is hardworking guy! I thought only bo liao people like Office Boy go see such condo ... haha! Did you chat with the agents there, did they tell u the buyer profile ?

DKSG

leesg123
29-12-12, 00:21
Is it a CCR or a city fringe?
CCR, 3-5 mins walk to nearby Great World City and Valley Point...

leesg123
29-12-12, 00:24
Fully agree.

Shrinking MMs, 400 sqfeet plus the norm everywhere nowadays and 2000 plus pfs still around $1m.

In future, 300 sfeet plus MMs esp in CCR will be the norm and 3000plus pfs will still be around $1m.

Many can afford this kind of quantum.

pfs value comes into play more for the much larger units.
Will it one day drop to 200 sfeet plus being the norm? Scary!

ekl2ekl2
29-12-12, 00:42
Will it one day drop to 200 sfeet plus being the norm? Scary!

Think around 300square feet will be the limit.

dtrax
29-12-12, 01:18
now buyers don't look at psf, only quantum. :ashamed1:

that used to be for MM.. but its also true lar.. alexis MM 800k, echelon bigger 1rm 800k also. Close one eye, left eye sees alexis quantum == echelon 1rm quantum, just hoot!

dtrax
29-12-12, 01:19
dtrax is hardworking guy! I thought only bo liao people like Office Boy go see such condo ... haha! Did you chat with the agents there, did they tell u the buyer profile ?

DKSG

pass by but never go in to c c look look coz I tot, fwah at this price who will buy?? :scared-3: :scared-3:

Ringo33
29-12-12, 07:09
I believe there are several reasons for this.

1) More expats are moving to local terms, hence housing budget is cut

2) International schools are moving out skirt, hence family has to follow as well

3) OCR properties and amenities are getting better.

4) Expat moving away from Bukit Timah area due to MRT line construction

leesg123
29-12-12, 07:24
I believe there are several reasons for this.

1) More expats are moving to local terms, hence housing budget is cut

2) International schools are moving out skirt, hence family has to follow as well

3) OCR properties and amenities are getting better.

4) Expat moving away from Bukit Timah area due to MRT line construction
Point 3 depends. If the job has moved to ocr, yes, move to ocr. If job is still at cbd, they still prefer close by.

DC33_2008
29-12-12, 07:40
Have also visited sol 11 and 15. Who can you sell to next? Just got worried with the sinking of Bangkok and unstable garment even when the king is around.
Hi

Lazy to type the full name lah... Haha

By the way, also lazy to start new thread since all bros & sis are here...

I just go back from bangkok and went to see some properties in sukhumvit area such as sol 11, 15' and 'h' in sol 43 and outskirts in rechada area. Do u think is good to invest there? Bank interest is 7% tho... Think better pay cash..

DC33_2008
29-12-12, 07:43
Depends on your tenants' target group: single, couple or family. Smaller unit is safer, ie two rooms and studio in CBD.
Point 3 depends. If the job has moved to ocr, yes, move to ocr. If job is still at cbd, they still prefer close by.

sh
29-12-12, 07:50
Hi

Lazy to type the full name lah... Haha

By the way, also lazy to start new thread since all bros & sis are here...

I just go back from bangkok and went to see some properties in sukhumvit area such as sol 11, 15' and 'h' in sol 43 and outskirts in rechada area. Do u think is good to invest there? Bank interest is 7% tho... Think better pay cash..

Considered investing overseas too, for diversification... Didn't do it because of the following:-

Unfamiliarity... Considering the amount of research and hours of pouring over property guru, square foot and this forum before committing to a property here...+ ground visits. Have collected some gems along the way. It's not possible overseas.

High interest rates... Where to find sub 2% interest rates overseas. If pay cash, then you're missing out on leverage.

Taxes, taxes, taxes.:simmering:

So sgp is still a better place to hunt...:) understand why foreigners want to buy prop here... before the last cm....

amk
29-12-12, 08:45
Since 2007 I never have problem renting out my D5 properties,,,and at good yield..

Also. For at least1.5 to 2 years now, I have been arguing about rental falling in many OTHER districts, but always kana humtum.


Rental is very location specific. I had no problem renting some D10 and D20 locations either, mostly because there are no new entrants in those areas. Some other forumers can tell you the same story I believe.

If you see so many new projects coming up in the same area, fundamentals will tell you there will definitely be a rental suppression.

Expats "moving to suburb" ? I dun think they are moving. It's the newly hired expats who have lower allowances. The existing ones who already secured their allowance will just move around in the same area if there are newer flashier alternatives. The size of this group is quite fixed. >8k housing allowance is just for a few guys in a MNC

Ringo33
29-12-12, 08:51
Point 3 depends. If the job has moved to ocr, yes, move to ocr. If job is still at cbd, they still prefer close by.


Really depends, 2 of my tenant renting my OCR property are actually working in CBD, while my other tenant for my CCR property is actually working in OCR.

Ringo33
29-12-12, 08:55
Rental is very location specific. I had no problem renting some D10 and D20 locations either, mostly because there are no new entrants in those areas. Some other forumers can tell you the same story I believe.

If you see so many new projects coming up in the same area, fundamentals will tell you there will definitely be a rental suppression.

Expats "moving to suburb" ? I dun think they are moving. It's the newly hired expats who have lower allowances. The existing ones who already secured their allowance will just move around in the same area if there are newer flashier alternatives. The size of this group is quite fixed. >8k housing allowance is just for a few guys in a MNC

I think the natural migration is that new comers will always start with CCR property, as they get more familiar with Singapore, they will slowly start to move RCR or OCR to look for better deal.

DKSG
29-12-12, 08:59
I think the natural migration is that new comers will always start with CCR property, as they get more familiar with Singapore, they will slowly start to move RCR or OCR to look for better deal.

Thats for those who cannot make it la!

My office expats ... 99% stay in CCR with rental in the 8-28K range.

Only those expats who is here to dredge gold save on housing allowances.

But there is nothing wrong with dredging gold in Singapore ... coz we are all sitting on gold mines - we just allow others to come in to dredge their bit.

DKSG

leesg123
29-12-12, 10:30
Considered investing overseas too, for diversification... Didn't do it because of the following:-

Unfamiliarity... Considering the amount of research and hours of pouring over property guru, square foot and this forum before committing to a property here...+ ground visits. Have collected some gems along the way. It's not possible overseas.

High interest rates... Where to find sub 2% interest rates overseas. If pay cash, then you're missing out on leverage.

Taxes, taxes, taxes.:simmering:

So sgp is still a better place to hunt...:) understand why foreigners want to buy prop here... before the last cm....
Actually overseas interest though seems high, not really. Give an example. Msia mortgage about 4.2%, but their monthly FD payout 3%. Assuming.u have the money, putbit in monthly FD for liquid.

Ringo33
29-12-12, 10:41
Thats for those who cannot make it la!

My office expats ... 99% stay in CCR with rental in the 8-28K range.

Only those expats who is here to dredge gold save on housing allowances.

But there is nothing wrong with dredging gold in Singapore ... coz we are all sitting on gold mines - we just allow others to come in to dredge their bit.

DKSG

How do you define someone who can make it or not? I actually think housing budget varies from industry to industry.

DC33_2008
29-12-12, 10:41
Quite a lot of singaporeans already doing it. With depreciation of MYR against SGD of 1% in exchange rate is still worth it (3%-1% =2%) for average income people.Early next year will see SGD strengthen furhter and MYR will drop further.
Actually overseas interest though seems high, not really. Give an example. Msia mortgage about 4.2%, but their monthly FD payout 3%. Assuming.u have the money, putbit in monthly FD for liquid.

hutsutau
18-02-13, 15:56
How come ccr properties doing so badly while landed market so hot? WIll landed market crash?

Leo.Cheng
02-03-13, 05:01
How come ccr properties doing so badly while landed market so hot? WIll landed market crash?

Because investors buy landed without reading their title deeds they bought?

Built-up is not reflected in landed title deeds unlike strata title.

Just a guess :)

DC33_2008
02-03-13, 09:06
No matter what, you own the land if you have the land title while strata title is still a shared land. There is always uncertainty with enbloc policy in future if that is one of investor's strategies.
How come ccr properties doing so badly while landed market so hot? WIll landed market crash?

hutsutau
04-03-13, 09:46
No matter what, you own the land if you have the land title while strata title is still a shared land. There is always uncertainty with enbloc policy in future if that is one of investor's strategies.
landed is overvalued now. time for a correction.

DC33_2008
04-03-13, 10:39
Do you think it will correct back to $600psf?
landed is overvalued now. time for a correction.

Rosy
04-03-13, 10:43
Do you think it will correct back to $600psf?
New baseline should be average 1kpsf for FH land.

Leo.Cheng
04-03-13, 18:21
New baseline should be average 1kpsf for FH land.

Theoretically speaking yes, it should average around 1000psf. However, many emotionally driven transactions could see the prices at around 890 to 990psf.

:) :) :) :)

Leo.Cheng
04-03-13, 18:22
Theoretically speaking yes, it should average around 1000psf. However, many emotionally driven transactions could see the prices at around 890 to 990psf.

:) :) :) :)

Emotionally driven when the owners realized many months have passed without an offer. That is the time you can consider to enter the landed sector again . Look for the cues in the classified ads instead :):) :):)

Leo.Cheng
04-03-13, 18:25
If you guys notice, the quantum of landed is very high now. That would deter many real demand which might look for replacement in other sector like CCR apartments or penthouses :) :) :)

leesg123
04-03-13, 18:51
If you guys notice, the quantum of landed is very high now. That would deter many real demand which might look for replacement in other sector like CCR apartments or penthouses :) :) :)
One landed, can get me 3-4 ccr mm.