View Full Version : Why are HDB owners allowed to own private property?
buttercarp
05-12-12, 09:12
Saw this article in yahoo.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/your-view--why-are-hdb-owners-allowed-to-buy-private-property-but-keep-their-hdb-flats--070601999.html
YOUR VIEW: Why are HDB owners allowed to own private property?
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/JyIKXkigGHkXJpStnaEpkg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9Zml0O2g9MjA-/http://media.zenfs.com/246/2011/03/17/ynewslogo-071424_075919.pngYahoo! Newsroom – 17 hours ago
http://l1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ykxcpY73IojMcIHnIRFw5w--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MzUwO2NyPTE7Y3c9NjMwO2R4PTA7ZHk9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD0zNTA7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/249/2011/11/16/630yahoo-rochorflats_105125.jpg
(http://sg.news.yahoo.com/photos/the-four-hdb-flats-together-with-187-shops-and-eating-houses-at-rochor-centre-will-have-to-make-way--photo-1321440692.html)Fair or not? HDB flat owners are allowed to keep their flats when they buy private property but not vice versa. (Yahoo! file photo)
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Property prices remain high in spite of all the recent cooling measures introduced. I wish to share some observations on two cooling measures.
One measure bars private property owners from buying HDB flat unless they sell off their private property.
However HDB flat owners are permitted to buy private property. While the intentions are good, there has been an unintended consequence in that it has divided Singaporeans into two groups (i.e. HDB flat owners and private property owners). This is not justice and equality as stated in our national pledge. I hope the government will review and amend this cooling measure.
Second, the additional stamp duty on foreigners was intended to help curb rising property prices. However, the effect of this policy is diluted because some property developers are now absorbing the stamp duties. Further, these developers lodge the caveat of the unit at its listed price with URA, giving the impression that the listed price was the sale price. This is misleading the public.
I would also like to suggest a few more measures that could help cool the rising property prices:
-- Consider not allowing PRs to buy resale HDB and EC. After all, the government’s aim of Public Housing is to provide affordable housing for all Singaporeans. Those PR who own HDB flats must sell them off when they leave Singapore.
-- Consider not converting EC into private condo after 10 years. EC is Public Housing meant for the sandwich class and it should remain as such.
-- Consider limiting the number of private condo units that can sold to foreigners, hedge funds foreign companies and PR.
Tan Teck Kwong, 72
Retiree
phantom_opera
05-12-12, 09:18
The author openly challenge LKY is it?... LKY has repeatedly ask you don't sell ... so why complain?
And LKY said your HDB price will go up 5x,10x,15x, 20x ... and if SG economy continues to grow ... rest assured price will continue to go up :rolleyes:
classic case of sour grapes. his friends all making good rental income while he has to wipe table everyday.
sorry to be so blunt. it is a fact. this policy divides citizens into 2 camps: camp 1 who have it support it for passive retirement income. camp 2 who can only look on because they never planned well when they were younger (ok, granted, they may not have the opportunity or were not as well educated in the past, as we are now)
this complain will not go away. 30 years later, those we see arnd us who keep taking on overtrade after overtrade to buy bigger and flashier cars now find they have not enough for retirement and start to blame govt again for high COE, blah blah blah.
while the rest of us resist the urge and keep the $$$ for pptys will be enjoying our lexus convertibles at old age. :D it has been proven monthly income of 2k+ also can own multiple pptys. everybody can do it!
When the market is weak, the private property owners provided support for the hdb market by restricting supply. Now suddenly they are blamed for housing shortage? Heh. How fickle can people be.
Saw this article in yahoo.
(http://sg.news.yahoo.com/photos/the-four-hdb-flats-together-with-187-shops-and-eating-houses-at-rochor-centre-will-have-to-make-way--photo-1321440692.html)Fair or not? HDB flat owners are allowed to keep their flats when they buy private property but not vice versa. (Yahoo! file photo)
This email by a reader was sent to us via
[email protected] (
[email protected]). We welcome your views. Please include your full name, age and occupation if you want your emails to be considered for publishing. Please note that all submissions will be subject to these terms (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/yahoo--witness-terms-and-conditions.html).
Property prices remain high in spite of all the recent cooling measures introduced. I wish to share some observations on two cooling measures.
One measure bars private property owners from buying HDB flat unless they sell off their private property.
However HDB flat owners are permitted to buy private property. While the intentions are good, there has been an unintended consequence in that it has divided Singaporeans into two groups (i.e. HDB flat owners and private property owners). This is not justice and equality as stated in our national pledge. I hope the government will review and amend this cooling measure.
Second, the additional stamp duty on foreigners was intended to help curb rising property prices. However, the effect of this policy is diluted because some property developers are now absorbing the stamp duties. Further, these developers lodge the caveat of the unit at its listed price with URA, giving the impression that the listed price was the sale price. This is misleading the public.
I would also like to suggest a few more measures that could help cool the rising property prices:
-- Consider not allowing PRs to buy resale HDB and EC. After all, the government’s aim of Public Housing is to provide affordable housing for all Singaporeans. Those PR who own HDB flats must sell them off when they leave Singapore.
-- Consider not converting EC into private condo after 10 years. EC is Public Housing meant for the sandwich class and it should remain as such.
-- Consider limiting the number of private condo units that can sold to foreigners, hedge funds foreign companies and PR.
Tan Teck Kwong, 72
Retiree
Very delicate balance... If remove CM that private property owners cannot purchase HDB, there will be sudden surge in demand for HDB. We all know what follows thereafter. It hurts the picture that Govt is trying to portray about stability.
Absorbing stamp duty also means increasing prices and claiming to absorb stamp duty. Prices are pushed upward, even though it can be claimed that stamp duty is not part of the price and be omitted. It indeed is a loophole. Is there a better way to do this?
If PRs cannot purchase resale or ECs, rentals and private housing will surge, again causing even bigger bubbles.
If don't convert EC into private housing, who will and can subscribe to it???
The Govt is already limiting number of private condo sold to foreigners, hedge funds and companies and PRs through the more stringent financing CMs. Severe limiting options means the money will flow to our neighboring Asian countries - not an ideal situation.
i like the 2nd idea though. ECs were meant for higher income earners and should remain as public housing
ECs could be like EAs and what HUDCs were like back in the 80s/90s
If HDB owners not allowed to buy private property, this will hurt the aspirations of a lot of Singaporeans and will not be a popular move for the Govt to make. I hope that they will not have a knee-jerk reaction.
If HDB owners not allowed to buy private property, this will hurt the aspirations of a lot of Singaporeans and will not be a popular move for the Govt to make. I hope that they will not have a knee-jerk reaction.
This scenario very unlikely. Will lose too much housing demand to other parts of the world.
but this will still create the phenomenon of concurrent hdb and private ownership. i understand how HDB can be used as a tool of wealth creation and offers Singaporeans a chance to move up the economic ladder but once you have enough financial ability (achieved in part through higher pay as you progress in your career and the increase in asset value of your HDB over time) to pay for your private property, this means that you have successfully grown your net worth and thus you should not be allowed to hold on to your HDB as a safety net anymore.
If HDB owners not allowed to buy private property, this will hurt the aspirations of a lot of Singaporeans and will not be a popular move for the Govt to make. I hope that they will not have a knee-jerk reaction.
i just feel it's illogical to allow HDB owners to own private property but not private property owners to own a HDB. the former group will be in a better off position and thus how is it justifiable for them to be still on public housing which is subsidised by the govt?
i just feel it's illogical to allow HDB owners to own private property but not private property owners to own a HDB. the former group will be in a better off position and thus how is it justifiable for them to be still on public housing which is subsidised by the govt?
Must look at the bigger picture. For political and economic reasons it can't be done.
that's why i feel it's unfair to some extent. it prejudices those who are able to buy a private property as a first property. those who are not able to are already given a headstart by giving them the option to buy a HDB which is an appreciating asset. but once the latter group reaches a certain level of financial stability, the safety net should be removed.
i appreciate there is not an easy solution to balance all the interests of the parties involved but this policy i am afraid is one very glaring inconsistency which i do not understand nor agree
Must look at the bigger picture. For political and economic reasons it can't be done.
FamilyGuy72
05-12-12, 10:22
i just feel it's illogical to allow HDB owners to own private property but not private property owners to own a HDB. the former group will be in a better off position and thus how is it justifiable for them to be still on public housing which is subsidised by the govt?
My take is that citizens should not profit from public housing through rental returns. Allow HDB owners to invest in private properties but cannot have them rent out HDB units after MOP unless due to oversea business or posting.
oh yes, they shouldn't be allowed to rent out the HDB period. if you are overseas etc, to enforce this strictly so as to see desired results, the HDB should be left vacant. otherwise there will be loopholes that are just open invitation for people to exploit.
My take is that citizens should not profit from public housing through rental returns. Allow HDB owners to invest in private properties but cannot have them rent out HDB units after MOP unless due to oversea business or posting.
i just feel it's illogical to allow HDB owners to own private property but not private property owners to own a HDB. the former group will be in a better off position and thus how is it justifiable for them to be still on public housing which is subsidised by the govt?
I feel there should be a "benefit" for Singaporeans vs PR in this aspect.
HDB owners who are Singaporeans, when they purchase private property, may be allowed to hold their fully paid HDBs. This creates motivation and wealth for the Singapore citizens thru growith.
HDB owners who are non-Singaporeans (aka PRs), when they purchase private property, shall NOT be allowed to hold their HDBs. This promotes them to consider if they be converted to citizens instead and not to "compete" with citizens in such benefits. This will also address a lot of concerns of the voters during election. :2cents:
I feel that HDBs/ECs are subsidised apartments and should be "purchased" by those who need such subsidisation only. But if they had worked hard enough to purchase private thereafter, why force them to sell? On the other hand, if private property owners should not be allowed to buy such subsidised apartments unless they have special reasons such as those who meet income ceiling requirements and perhaps only under extreme and special circumstances?
I am no guru but just sharing how I think think. :)
My take is that citizens should not profit from public housing through rental returns. Allow HDB owners to invest in private properties but cannot have them rent out HDB units after MOP unless due to oversea business or posting.
There are many low to middle income foreign families renting hdb. They need a place to stay.
There are also many retirees depending on their hdb rental income. There is no pension.
I hope that the government can allow private property
owener above 55 years who are retired to buy resale HDB flat for own stay without selling their existing property.
I am still for no Private property and HDB joint ownership, regardless of the order in which they were purchased.
the increase in asset value for their HDB is already in itself a gain for them and they can use the increase in value of the HDB to fund a private property and this is already growth and wealth creation for them. if they have enough savings through their career or business ventures, then it means they are in a financially secure enough position and thus should no longer be allowed to hold on to a subsidized housing.
And PRS should not be allowed to buy HDB at all period - there should be no leeway on this. HDB is for citizens.
my two cents as well ..
I feel there should be a "benefit" for Singaporeans vs PR in this aspect.
HDB owners who are Singaporeans, when they purchase private property, may be allowed to hold their fully paid HDBs. This creates motivation and wealth for the Singapore citizens thru growith.
HDB owners who are non-Singaporeans (aka PRs), when they purchase private property, shall NOT be allowed to hold their HDBs. This promotes them to consider if they be converted to citizens instead and not to "compete" with citizens in such benefits. This will also address a lot of concerns of the voters during election. :2cents:
I feel that HDBs/ECs are subsidised apartments and should be "purchased" by those who need such subsidisation only. But if they had worked hard enough to purchase private thereafter, why force them to sell? On the other hand, if private property owners should not be allowed to buy such subsidised apartments unless they have special reasons such as those who meet income ceiling requirements and perhaps only under extreme and special circumstances?
I am no guru but just sharing how I think think. :)
that's why i feel it's unfair to some extent. it prejudices those who are able to buy a private property as a first property. those who are not able to are already given a headstart by giving them the option to buy a HDB which is an appreciating asset. but once the latter group reaches a certain level of financial stability, the safety net should be removed.
i appreciate there is not an easy solution to balance all the interests of the parties involved but this policy i am afraid is one very glaring inconsistency which i do not understand nor agree
Most important is this: if only non-HDB owners feel this way, and HDB owners do not share the same thoughts, it cannot be pushed through.
A democratic country is subject to "tyranny" by the masses, although it is not that bad. There are at least a dozen of other "not-totally-fair" policies in SG, just consider PSLE, Pri school admission, etc etc etc...
Some other situations regarding implementability: a HDB owner of a four-room or five-room HDB, with 4 or 5 people in the household cannot be expected to move into an MM easily. People with HDB near their children's Primary school or their workplace and their private flat on the other side of the island will not be too happy to relocate as well. The reverse is true as well, for e.g. if their HDB is now too small or if their HDB is too far from their children's primary school or their workplace. Why should these groups of people who have followed Govt specifications to the dot be penalised? I don't think this group of people is small.
For e.g., if the basis is fairness, why should people who were posted overseas be allowed to rent?
Since it is neither desirable (by the masses) nor implementable, introducing even more injustice in complex manners, it just will not happen.
i think most of the non HDB owners would like to see some kind of a middle ground being achieved. the world is inherently unfair - this is reality but i feel this HDB-private property ownership issue has the scales tipped heavily to one end no matter how i look at it.
Most important is this: if only non-HDB owners feel this way, and HDB owners do not share the same thoughts, it cannot be pushed through.
A democratic country is subject to "tyranny" by the masses, although it is not that bad. There are at least a dozen of other "not-totally-fair" policies in SG, just consider PSLE, Pri school admission, etc etc etc...
Some other situations regarding implementability: a HDB owner of a four-room or five-room HDB, with 4 or 5 people in the household cannot be expected to move into an MM easily. People with HDB near their children's Primary school or their workplace and their private flat on the other side of the island will not be too happy to relocate as well. The reverse is true as well, for e.g. if their HDB is now too small or if their HDB is too far from their children's primary school or their workplace. Why should these groups of people who have followed Govt specifications to the dot be penalised? I don't think this group of people is small.
For e.g., if the basis is fairness, why should people who were posted overseas be allowed to rent?
Since it is neither desirable (by the masses) nor implementable, introducing even more injustice in complex manners, it just will not happen.
feel so hopeless with endless debt if i would to buy property including HDB now.. :banghead:
as a late20s -early30s couple
feel so hopeless with endless debt if i would to buy property including HDB now.. :banghead:
as a late20s -early30s couple
Your combined income exceed 10k? Or even 12k for ec?
It is alot easier to get bto recently. Even so for 2nd timers.
Your combined income exceed 10k? Or even 12k for ec?
It is alot easier to get bto recently. Even so for 2nd timers.
the problem is me is choosy ...
end up got nothing
I feel most HDB policies are fair including helping first timers and the restriction on PR. PR needs a place to stay too.
But dual HDB-private property ownership is really not a balanced policy. I agree government should stop that or put a limit on the number of years they can rent their HDB flat out. Then they should leave public housing as they are now financially independent.
I feel most HDB policies are fair including helping first timers and the restriction on PR. PR needs a place to stay too.
But dual HDB-private property ownership is really not a balanced policy. I agree government should stop that or put a limit on the number of years they can rent their HDB flat out. Then they should leave public housing as they are now financially independent.
I am still for no Private property and HDB joint ownership, regardless of the order in which they were purchased.
the increase in asset value for their HDB is already in itself a gain for them and they can use the increase in value of the HDB to fund a private property and this is already growth and wealth creation for them. if they have enough savings through their career or business ventures, then it means they are in a financially secure enough position and thus should no longer be allowed to hold on to a subsidized housing.
And PRS should not be allowed to buy HDB at all period - there should be no leeway on this. HDB is for citizens.
my two cents as well ..
hi emma and bsslang, no bad feelings, but may i know how many pte pptys you hold? and have you ever owned a HDB?
the problem is me is choosy ...
end up got nothing
bro, choosy is an option. HDB is for those who have no better option.
you got 300k. when i got married, not sure if i even have 30k.
bro, choosy is an option. HDB is for those who have no better option.
you got 300k. when i got married, not sure if i even have 30k.
now and then is so big difference..
:doh:
very demoralizing :beats-me-man:
Well we have to face up to the fact that Singaporeans need to employ many foreigners especially in the service sectors as there are simply not enough Singaporeans to do those jobs (and the numbers will dwindle as the birth rate is so low).
Those foreigners need a relatively affordable source of accomodation. That is being provided by HDB flats rented out by Singaporeans and to a lesser extent now PRs. If the Govt withdraws this source of accomodation by disallowing co-ownership of HDB and private, where are we going to house these foreign workers? Are our private condos going to turn into dormitories for them? The new private condos are so so small. They would have to squeeze to get into those spaces at an "affordable" rent.
Well we have to face up to the fact that Singaporeans need to employ many foreigners especially in the service sectors as there are simply not enough Singaporeans to do those jobs (and the numbers will dwindle as the birth rate is so low).
Those foreigners need a relatively affordable source of accomodation. That is being provided by HDB flats rented out by Singaporeans and to a lesser extent now PRs. If the Govt withdraws this source of accomodation by disallowing co-ownership of HDB and private, where are we going to house these foreign workers? Are our private condos going to turn into dormitories for them? The new private condos are so so small. They would have to squeeze to get into those spaces at an "affordable" rent.
to add to this, we have a huge supply of PCs coming on board, much larger than HDBs. if HDB owners are forced to stay in HDB and rent out PC, the rental of PCs will come down alot, thereby forcing down valuation of HDB as well. also this will become a social anomaly where citizens stay in "lower class" HDB while blue collar workers stay in "higher class" PC (yet super squeezed there). you get unhappy HDB owners and unhappy PC owners (those who stay there have to put up with slum condition neighbours).. not quite a happy social outcome.
hi emma and bsslang, no bad feelings, but may i know how many pte pptys you hold? and have you ever owned a HDB?
Shanhz, there are 4 groups of people:-
1. Those who own HDB but cannot afford PC
2. Those who own HDB and PC
3. Those who has PC but cannnot buy HDB
4. Those who has HDB and is looking to buy PC
Every group will tell you their views based on where they are. And I daresay it will be to their benefit/ advantage.
Who will say they got HDB but tell garmen not to allow them to buy PC even when they could afford? :doh:
1. Those who own HDB but cannot afford PC <-- many many, borderline cases will be jealous, others will not even think about it because totally not their concern. 60%?
2. Those who own HDB and PC <--- small %tage, maybe 10-20%
3. Those who has PC but cannnot buy HDB <--- MTB, very very very jealous, (if i can't buy, garmen should make sure all cannot buy also) maybe 10-20%
4. Those who has HDB and is looking to buy PC <-- hoping for status quo - 10%
Yah. so once we ascertain where the majority falls into, we know where the policy is going towards.
I feel most HDB policies are fair including helping first timers and the restriction on PR. PR needs a place to stay too.
But dual HDB-private property ownership is really not a balanced policy. I agree government should stop that or put a limit on the number of years they can rent their HDB flat out. Then they should leave public housing as they are now financially independent.
This dual HDB-private property ownership is one of the (not so many) perks of being a Singaporean. Those who shout loud-loud that it should not be allowed, please think carefully. Not so many people are rich enough that they can become financially independent completely without worries for the rest of their lives. They may still need to fall back on their HDB during retirement for one reason or another. Perhaps some creative banker with creative products may cause them to lose a large proportion of their investment income or whatever......:beats-me-man:
Retirees may not wish to fork out $$$ unnecesssarily to stay in a PC because they won't be using the facilities at their age. Service charge for a PC is average $300 vs. less than $100 per month in an HDB. And the repairs in HDB are far cheaper than for a PC. Also HDBs are closer to amenities and transport (in general).
LKY said keep your HDB flats. Give him some credit. He doesn't make such statements without justification.
Why cannot own? The author sour. Likely he sold his hdb want to buy back.
buttercarp
05-12-12, 12:26
I hope that the government can allow private property
owener above 55 years who are retired to buy resale HDB flat for own stay without selling their existing property.
Yes. I second your suggestion :cheers4: !
I know of older folks who keep their hdb with the plan to eventually retire back at them cos there are amenities all around.
Allthepies
05-12-12, 12:44
I hope that the government can allow private property
owener above 55 years who are retired to buy resale HDB flat for own stay without selling their existing property.
Great point!
Would be best if this is extended to all Singaporeans (regardless of age) who want to buy a resale HDB for staying.
I know of older folks who keep their hdb with the plan to eventually retire back at them cos there are amenities all around.
that's me! HDB cheaper to maintain. lower maintenance fee esp if no car. even PUB bill also cheaper. of coz, hopefully next time i got 10 ppty then who cares.
This dual HDB-private property ownership is one of the (not so many) perks of being a Singaporean. Those who shout loud-loud that it should not be allowed, please think carefully. Not so many people are rich enough that they can become financially independent completely without worries for the rest of their lives. They may still need to fall back on their HDB during retirement for one reason or another. Perhaps some creative banker with creative products may cause them to lose a large proportion of their investment income or whatever......:beats-me-man:
Retirees may not wish to fork out $$$ unnecesssarily to stay in a PC because they won't be using the facilities at their age. Service charge for a PC is average $300 vs. less than $100 per month in an HDB. And the repairs in HDB are far cheaper than for a PC. Also HDBs are closer to amenities and transport (in general).
LKY said keep your HDB flats. Give him some credit. He doesn't make such statements without justification.
make alot of sense!!
thx for the post! :D
For shanz, I have two private ppty and I dun need an HDB to supply my income. Sour grapes? Why do I have to?
It is about the imbalance in the supply and demand of HDB resale and dual ownership is one factor. I feel something has to done to correct that and make the prices stabilize. These people are not the one in needs. The first timers are. Simple as that.
For shanz, I have two private ppty and I dun need an HDB to supply my income. Sour grapes? Why do I have to?
It is about the imbalance in the supply and demand of HDB resale and dual ownership is one factor. I feel something has to done to correct that and make the prices stabilize. These people are not the one in needs. The first timers are. Simple as that.
I agree with you. hdb being public housing,should be returned to the pool if no longer needed. Hogging it reduce supply,increase price.
buttercarp
05-12-12, 14:01
For shanz, I have two private ppty and I dun need an HDB to supply my income. Sour grapes? Why do I have to?
It is about the imbalance in the supply and demand of HDB resale and dual ownership is one factor. I feel something has to done to correct that and make the prices stabilize. These people are not the one in needs. The first timers are. Simple as that.
In the 1990's when private property owners with HDB had to stay in HDB, some of my friends chose to leave their flats vacant and stay in their condos.
I agree. It is so wasteful.
So now HDB flats can be let out by these PC cum HDB owners.
It is a win win situation for both parties.
Now, how about letting PC owners who sold off their HDB buy a resale HDB again but rent it out to the poor or first timers waiting for their HDB at low rates during the MOP, ie HDB decide the rental price during the MOP. After 5 years, then they are free to rent out in the open market or sell them.
FamilyGuy72
05-12-12, 15:18
There are many low to middle income foreign families renting hdb. They need a place to stay.
There are also many retirees depending on their hdb rental income. There is no pension.
I'm not against renting out HDB rooms to foreigners, just not the whole unit while the owners stay elsewhere. I class foreigners who can afford renting whole HDB units but not PC as those that are directly competing with locals for jobs that citizens values. Moreover with them renting whole units as oppose to rooms with owner and their family staying together, we're seeing less and less assimilation with our local society and contribution to it.
I'm not against renting out HDB rooms to foreigners, just not the whole unit while the owners stay elsewhere. I class foreigners who can afford renting whole HDB units but not PC as those that are directly competing with locals for jobs that citizens values. Moreover with them renting whole units as oppose to rooms with owner and their family staying together, we're seeing less and less assimilation with our local society and contribution to it.
valid point. i agree.
can i just poke my nose in this thread....:spliff2:...no comments...bye:D
can i just poke my nose in this thread....:spliff2:...no comments...bye:D
bro, this thread not for jokers. dun try to increase your post number here. :tongue3:
you got a long way to 5,000 posts
I'm not against renting out HDB rooms to foreigners, just not the whole unit while the owners stay elsewhere. I class foreigners who can afford renting whole HDB units but not PC as those that are directly competing with locals for jobs that citizens values. Moreover with them renting whole units as oppose to rooms with owner and their family staying together, we're seeing less and less assimilation with our local society and contribution to it.
I don't think that is the case. The jobs taken by foreigners in HDB flats are often the lower to mid-end service sector jobs. There are around 6 renting a 4 room unit. There are not enough Singaporeans to do those jobs.
This is from my perspective of a HDB owner and soon-to-be condo owner as well:
My spouse and I are in our late 40s. We do not have children (not by choice). We worked and saved hard to buy a condo only this year, after working for more than 2 decades. Before buying the condo, our hard earned savings are mainly in unit trusts, endowment policies and other funds. After Lehman Brothers and report after report of unscrupulous Wall Street bankers, as well as reading news that a lot of the money that we paid for our policies goes not only to our insurance agents, but to the agents' bosses as well, we are starting to think if we should put our hard earned savings in all these funds. The government has repeatedly tell us that we are on our own when we retire. No handouts from the state.
So our best bet is to have a passive income via rental from property, which means we need to have one home to live in and another to rent out. Having 2 private properties is out of the question.
Our plan is to sell off both properties and retire to a retirement village when either one of us passes on and the other is incapacitated. We are keeping our fingers cross that the proceeds from the properties can last both of us in our life time. Any additional money after our death will be given to help others in needs.
Remember, the government has always reiterated that we are on our own when we retire. So got to make plans now.
My spouse and I are in our late 40s. We do not have children (not by choice). We worked and saved hard to buy a condo only this year, after working for more than 2 decades. Before buying the condo, our hard earned savings are mainly in unit trusts, endowment policies and other funds. After Lehman Brothers and report after report of unscrupulous Wall Street bankers, as well as reading news that a lot of the money that we paid for our policies goes not only to our insurance agents, but to the agents' bosses as well, we are starting to think if we should put our hard earned savings in all these funds. The government has repeatedly tell us that we are on our own when we retire. No handouts from the state.
this is precisely the reason why citizens are indirectly encouraged to work towards 2 pptys. even the CM is also structured around this - citizens only taxed extra for 3rd ppty onwards. it is the unwritten "rule" that all citizens should have 2 pptys, one for retirement income, since long long ago. the smart ones who realised this from the earlier generations now own a few pptys. i have a distant relative, retired teachers, own 4-5 pptys. no extra income, just MOE + plain savings and accumulation.
the only point of contention is whether or not they should be allowed not to stay in the HDB, and rent it out instead. i think our discussions abt lower end foreign labour has already addressed that.
bro, this thread not for jokers. dun try to increase your post number here. :tongue3:
you got a long way to 5,000 posts
Excuse me jokers can be serious too...i am a hdb flat owner and also private property so best just to keep quiet and NOT say anything in this type of thread....NOT JOKING...:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
In the 1990's when private property owners with HDB had to stay in HDB, some of my friends chose to leave their flats vacant and stay in their condos.
I agree. It is so wasteful.
So now HDB flats can be let out by these PC cum HDB owners.
It is a win win situation for both parties.
Now, how about letting PC owners who sold off their HDB buy a resale HDB again but rent it out to the poor or first timers waiting for their HDB at low rates during the MOP, ie HDB decide the rental price during the MOP. After 5 years, then they are free to rent out in the open market or sell them.
They should reinstate this rule where private property owners with HDB have to stay in their HDB.
If they choose to leave it vacant, its their choice. The opporunity cost should encourage these dual owners to sell off the HDB and increase the supply of resale flats to those who need it more than them
As these dual owners can now rent out their HDB and use these rentals to pay for the installements of their condos, they are effectively staying in the condo for free. Why should they benefit at the expense of newly weds and others who badly need a resale flat and cannot afford the ridiculous COVs
Dont worry, the next cooling will address this issue.
Dont worry, the next cooling will address this issue.
my sentiments exactly... these has been appearing in the news pretty often recently... this is called "Setting the stage"
There are supposedly 35,000 units rented ou based on some report. This vs an additional 1.3m population size increase. Do they honestly think that freeing up this 35,000 units will make flats more affordable for newly weds and all.
These people must attend economics 101 and not just say things just for the sake of saying it out of jealousy.
There are supposedly 35,000 units rented ou based on some report. This vs an additional 1.3m population size increase. Do they honestly think that freeing up this 35,000 units will make flats more affordable for newly weds and all.
These people must attend economics 101 and not just say things just for the sake of saying it out of jealousy.
I suspect looking at the total number of resale HDB flats transacted over the last 12 months for the whole island, i dare say 35,000 freed up flats will greatly ease the rising prices
Anyway this would be an interim measure for the next couple of years until 2014/2015 when the real supply of BTO flats come on board.
Anyway this would be an interim measure for the next couple of years until 2014/2015 when the real supply of BTO flats come on board.
Rein, a few question to ponder on :
1. In 2014/15, the flats coming out are BTOs? Are they fully booked by the 1st timers and 2nd timers?
2. How many married couples are there a year? How many % will apply for HDB flat from this batch? How many HDBs will be catered to them?
3. How many flats were built from 2006 to 2012? How many married couples and how many you think wants HDB flats during that time - work out the figure and you have the answer?
4. If HDB do not allow rental of flats, where will the Philippinos, Chinese, etc... , cashiers, watresses, masseuse, etc.. stay???
5. Did the govt say they will
a. cut the population? or
b. cut the number of migrants coming in?
Food for thot.
:cheers4:
East Lover
06-12-12, 08:03
They should reinstate this rule where private property owners with HDB have to stay in their HDB.
If they choose to leave it vacant, its their choice. The opporunity cost should encourage these dual owners to sell off the HDB and increase the supply of resale flats to those who need it more than them
As these dual owners can now rent out their HDB and use these rentals to pay for the installements of their condos, they are effectively staying in the condo for free. Why should they benefit at the expense of newly weds and others who badly need a resale flat and cannot afford the ridiculous COVs
if such HDB units are forced to sell, seller will naturally buy another PC to invest for rental. that will result private property market getting harder and harder to reach, if force to sell cheap, also meaning HDB owner will getting less chance to upgrade. this is lose-lose proposal.
buttercarp
06-12-12, 08:10
if such HDB units are forced to sell, seller will naturally buy another PC to invest for rental. that will result private property market getting harder and harder to reach, if force to sell cheap, also meaning HDB owner will getting less chance to upgrade. this is lose-lose proposal.
So it should be free for all.
Private property singaporean owners be allowed to purchase resale HDB.
HDB after MOP or say 10 year old HDB should be treated as private.
Govt keep ABSD rule or apply the ABSD to private property owners who want to buy resale HDB.
Govt help needy citizens and first timers with housing with the extra money obtained from the ABSD.
So it should be free for all.
Private property singaporean owners be allowed to purchase resale HDB.
HDB after MOP or say 10 year old HDB should be treated as private.
Govt keep ABSD rule or apply the ABSD to private property owners who want to buy resale HDB.
Govt help needy citizens and first timers with housing with the extra money obtained from the ABSD.
If free for all, means gap between HDB and PC will shrink. EC will not serve its purpose anymore. :D
So it should be free for all.
Private property singaporean owners be allowed to purchase resale HDB.
HDB after MOP or say 10 year old HDB should be treated as private.
Govt keep ABSD rule or apply the ABSD to private property owners who want to buy resale HDB.
Govt help needy citizens and first timers with housing with the extra money obtained from the ABSD.
Sis, in any policy, some will be affected positively and some negatively... There is no perfect policy...
To play the game, u have to understand the policies and use it to your advantage... Many bros and sis here can understand the policies and the impact/implication and taken advantage of it. And many bros and sis here also have not seen the impact/implication and are caught by it and now "complaining"... So the decision is :
1. be the doer or
2. be the receiver ?
Hahahahaha
:cheers5:
BOTTOMLINE:Never apply for position of Minister of National Devt:D:D:D:D
...you will have a BIG BIG headache in ur job...:doh::doh::doh::D
BOTTOMLINE:Never apply for position of Minister of National Devt:D:D:D:D
...you will have a BIG BIG headache in ur job...:doh::doh::doh::D
bro i got apply, they say i overqualified.. so LPPL, be investor better. :cheers4:
Sis, in any policy, some will be affected positively and some negatively... There is no perfect policy...
To play the game, u have to understand the policies and use it to your advantage... Many bros and sis here can understand the policies and the impact/implication and taken advantage of it. And many bros and sis here also have not seen the impact/implication and are caught by it and now "complaining"... So the decision is :
1. be the doer or
2. be the receiver ?
Hahahahaha
:cheers5:
80/20 rule again? :tongue3:
80/20 rule again? :tongue3:
Bro, why the :tongue3: U in the 20. Hahahaha
How many % hdb and how many % private???
Anyway this would be an interim measure for the next couple of years until 2014/2015 when the real supply of BTO flats come on board.
interim measure will not work. everybody will just tong the 2 years. those who own fully paid HDB now.. all bought at dirt cheap price. they will just leave it vacant for 2 years.
bro i got apply, they say i overqualified.. so LPPL, be investor better. :cheers4:
Bro, how to apply??? What are the qualifications?? I only got "O" level cert, you think got chance or not???
:D:D:D
Bro, how to apply??? What are the qualifications?? I only got "O" level cert, you think got chance or not???
:D:D:D
So long as you got white shirt, white pants, got chance.
I no chance cos white makes me look fat.
So long as you got white shirt, white pants, got chance.
I no chance cos white makes me look fat.
Bro, if your wallet become fat from the pay, you can go "fat loss" London Weight Management leh, and still come out with spare cash.
:cheers1:
buttercarp
06-12-12, 08:35
So long as you got white shirt, white pants, got chance.
I no chance cos white makes me look fat.
What about wearing pink :D ?
It may make you look cute!
East Lover
06-12-12, 08:36
So it should be free for all.
Private property singaporean owners be allowed to purchase resale HDB.
HDB after MOP or say 10 year old HDB should be treated as private.
Govt keep ABSD rule or apply the ABSD to private property owners who want to buy resale HDB.
Govt help needy citizens and first timers with housing with the extra money obtained from the ABSD.
sis, did you sell your HDB long time ago? ;)
What about wearing pink :D ?
It may make you look cute!
Sis, you know the implication of pink shirt on man??
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pink%20shirt
Read item 2.
Bro, how to apply??? What are the qualifications?? I only got "O" level cert, you think got chance or not???
:D:D:D
no lah. i attached my photo. they say i dun look honest.
somemore, i fail the crying and apology test.
Sis, you know the implication of pink shirt on man??
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pink%20shirt
Read item 2.
You die! :scared-5:
http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/3psreqZFUq1dbYY5hqk.sA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MzU0O2NyPTE7Y3c9NjMwO2R4PTA7ZHk9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD0zNTQ7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/249/2012/08/08/630yahoo-lee-jpg_121531.jpg
What about wearing pink :D ?
It may make you look cute!
no wonder LHL who is fierce but wear pink to lessen the 'sha' qi
Sis, you know the implication of pink shirt on man??
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pink%20shirt
Read item 2.
ha ha tats the implication
buttercarp
06-12-12, 09:11
no wonder LHL who is fierce but wear pink to lessen the 'sha' qi
No, I don't agree that he looks fierce.
He has the benevolent look.
No, I don't agree that he looks fierce.
He has the benevolent look.
it's the old man that is fierce, not him.
once told by my prof that LHL's profile is better suited to be univ prof. he would have gone very far. politics is not quite for him - he's too soft.
it's the old man that is fierce, not him.
once told by my prof that LHL's profile is better suited to be univ prof. he would have gone very far. politics is not quite for him - he's too soft.
You are talking about someone who purportedly slapped people when they disagree with him. :scared-5:
Anyway end of OT. We shldnt be talking about politics here.
For shanz, I have two private ppty and I dun need an HDB to supply my income. Sour grapes? Why do I have to?
It is about the imbalance in the supply and demand of HDB resale and dual ownership is one factor. I feel something has to done to correct that and make the prices stabilize. These people are not the one in needs. The first timers are. Simple as that.
Then First timers can go buy the new BTO resale are not suitable for them. they should exercise their right as citizen to get the first timer BTO or HDB. So there is nothing related with owner with PC owning HDB.
This is part of the spreading the wealth and inclusive growth to benefit the citizen. they can sell the PC later in life and still retire in their HDB.
I agree with you. hdb being public housing,should be returned to the pool if no longer needed. Hogging it reduce supply,increase price.
So return it who pay for the return? other tax payer pay for it? Or owners dont mind return at cost too? minus the usage they have use up prior to the return?
In the 1990's when private property owners with HDB had to stay in HDB, some of my friends chose to leave their flats vacant and stay in their condos.
I agree. It is so wasteful.
So now HDB flats can be let out by these PC cum HDB owners.
It is a win win situation for both parties.
Now, how about letting PC owners who sold off their HDB buy a resale HDB again but rent it out to the poor or first timers waiting for their HDB at low rates during the MOP, ie HDB decide the rental price during the MOP. After 5 years, then they are free to rent out in the open market or sell them.
too complicated and fester black market pricing. under table COV.
buttercarp
06-12-12, 11:22
sis, did you sell your HDB long time ago? ;)
Yup. 10 years ago.
That time when I bought my PC, the rule was have to stay in HDB if you want to own both.
I'm not against renting out HDB rooms to foreigners, just not the whole unit while the owners stay elsewhere. I class foreigners who can afford renting whole HDB units but not PC as those that are directly competing with locals for jobs that citizens values. Moreover with them renting whole units as oppose to rooms with owner and their family staying together, we're seeing less and less assimilation with our local society and contribution to it.
why not? Owner renting it out also return the unit to the market circulation. Some people are not comfortable to rent a room out with tenant walking in and out while they live there. end up they will leave it empty.
anyway leaving it empty will invite Property tax. which act as a deterrent on leaving property empty.
Yup. 10 years ago.
That time when I bought my PC, the rule was have to stay in HDB if you want to own both.
well then was also hard to police. many pple tao tao rent out the hub wo letting people know.
anyway the policy has to change with time. pple needs are diff. singaporean get richer, more get older. need to have ways to fund for their retirement. renting out HDB helps a segment of population that have tat needs. without them having to sell and buy a smaller flat.
Those with PC can rent out the HDB as a whole. later in life go back n retire n sell the PC. Nothing wrong with that too.
I feel that is a win win. as the apt goes back in to circulation via rental.
buttercarp
06-12-12, 11:34
From yahoo again.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/your-view--gov-t-should-be-consistent-with-hdb-policy-100429878.html
This email by a reader was sent to us via
[email protected] (
[email protected]). We welcome your views. Please include your full name, age and occupation if you want your emails to be considered for publishing.Please note that all submissions will be subject to these terms (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/yahoo--witness-terms-and-conditions.html).
I agree with Mr Tan (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/your-view--why-are-hdb-owners-allowed-to-buy-private-property-but-keep-their-hdb-flats--070601999.html)Teck Kwong's views and suggestions on HDB owners being allowed to own private property.
Why allow HDB owners to own private property and not vice versa? It is unfair.
Another point is why HDB owners are allowed to rent out their flat for long-term leasing while they stay in their private property. It defeats the original purpose of the HDB's fundamental objectives of providing public housing.
The previous policy was to require the HDB owners to sell/release their HDB unit upon acquiring their private property. If HDB owners are residing in their private property, why allow them to own HDB flats?
Tea Lay Hoon, 43, professional
HDB Resale flats have gone up so high not because of private property owners but because of purchase of foreigner-PRs. Hope our government look into the roots
of the problem.
HDB Resale flats have gone up so high not because of private property owners but because of purchase of foreigner-PRs. Hope our government look into the roots
of the problem.
Also singaporean buyers too lah. the Enblockers.. not everything also foreigners if u look at statistics.. Many Enblockers got $$ from PC Enbloc waited a yr or 2 some go buy HDB. I know a hand full of them myself. and u know wat is most ugly? The HDB sellers! some refuse to sell unless u ar Enblocker coz they know Enblokers want to same area and can pay the premium! My friend was wondering why the seller keep asking if they are enblocker of the near by project if not dont want to proceed to talk abt the HDB.
maybe 1st thing u want is to lobby for halt to all Enbloc! and let the additional BTO circulation rise 1st.
or maybe u want to go lobby for a 5 year ban on housing resale n transaction. They will achieve ur needs of halting the price.
Then I will suggest HDB allow enblockers to apply as 1st timer in HDB BTO! then tat will surely slow the resale price!!! That is something for thought!
HDB Resale flats have gone up so high not because of private property owners but because of purchase of foreigner-PRs. Hope our government look into the roots
of the problem.
High resale price also benifit the HDB owners what? I dont see wats that to loose abt it. Need house go Q BTO as 1stimer.
well then was also hard to police. many pple tao tao rent out the hub wo letting people know.
anyway the policy has to change with time. pple needs are diff. singaporean get richer, more get older. need to have ways to fund for their retirement. renting out HDB helps a segment of population that have tat needs. without them having to sell and buy a smaller flat.
Those with PC can rent out the HDB as a whole. later in life go back n retire n sell the PC. Nothing wrong with that too.
I feel that is a win win. as the apt goes back in to circulation via rental.
I suspect by the time they retire, the HDB already SERS already...
so govt may not give them replacement flat since they own PC?
they should really increase the 10k cap for BTOs. so many young couples i know over qualify just after working for a few years
they should really increase the 10k cap for BTOs. so many young couples i know over qualify just after working for a few years
Bro, I dont know if I feel happy or sad for this group.
1. Happy
- they earn a lot more than their peers
- they will continue to earn a lot more in the future
2. Sad
- Got stuck in no man's land...
- earn a lot but not enough to save for downpayment for a condo
- have to choose between resale (pay price for earning a lot too early) or private(hopefully someone will help)
If they raise the ceiling, the chances of getting BTO gets slimmer as more people join the pot. If you look at the BTO, most of the time it is over subscribed.
:eek:
Is it true that if SER, those who own private will not be given a new unit?
Went down to see D'Leedon, discount given very rigid... think better wait.
Bro, I dont know if I feel happy or sad for this group.
1. Happy
- they earn a lot more than their peers
- they will continue to earn a lot more in the future
2. Sad
- Got stuck in no man's land...
- earn a lot but not enough to save for downpayment for a condo
- have to choose between resale (pay price for earning a lot too early) or private(hopefully someone will help)
If they raise the ceiling, the chances of getting BTO gets slimmer as more people join the pot. If you look at the BTO, most of the time it is over subscribed.
:eek:
Like i've always been saying, BTO is not a good system now.
Like you've said, every project is always over subscribed. whats the point of build to order then? They should just keep building. Couples can get married younger, more babies will be born etc. so many positive points and the only thing the government is afraid of is oversupply when crisis hits. But again, we pay top dollar for people working in these ministries. can't they forecast how many units to build?
Like i've always been saying, BTO is not a good system now.
Like you've said, every project is always over subscribed. whats the point of build to order then? They should just keep building. Couples can get married younger, more babies will be born etc. so many positive points and the only thing the government is afraid of is oversupply when crisis hits. But again, we pay top dollar for people working in these ministries. can't they forecast how many units to build?
Bro, today I good mood and share with you the past... In the past before MBT, the hdb was over built in Sengkang and Punggol. The bunch of people in Singapore very interesting leh... When too much, they take their time, dilly dally... Then 1997 came and the surplus not taken up and the govt kanna siong... Then cam MBT. start BTO... I think he was also the one that did selling price with discount (previously - cost plus). Govt coffers grew. Because of limit - everyone rust (over subscribe), people got married earlier to apply flat (forced by circumstances - majority). Guaranteed no oversupply. This Poa Ya !!!!
Let me ask you a few simple questions :
1. Is it in the interest of the govt to increase HDB prices?
2. How would you manage that if you are them?
3. Build too many, what if people dont take up offer?
Tired now, take a break. Hahahaha - Bro, understand the objective, then work out the strategy to achieve objective. Think like them and you will find your answer. Please dont think like yourself... Empathy my friend.
Cheers
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
Bro, today I good mood and share with you the past... In the past before MBT, the hdb was over built in Sengkang and Punggol. The bunch of people in Singapore very interesting leh... When too much, they take their time, dilly dally... Then 1997 came and the surplus not taken up and the govt kanna siong... Then cam MBT. start BTO... I think he was also the one that did selling price with discount (previously - cost plus). Govt coffers grew. Because of limit - everyone rust (over subscribe), people got married earlier to apply flat (forced by circumstances - majority). Guaranteed no oversupply. This Poa Ya !!!!
Let me ask you a few simple questions :
1. Is it in the interest of the govt to increase HDB prices?
2. How would you manage that if you are them?
3. Build too many, what if people dont take up offer?
Tired now, take a break. Hahahaha - Bro, understand the objective, then work out the strategy to achieve objective. Think like them and you will find your answer. Please dont think like yourself... Empathy my friend.
Cheers
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
They only "commit to build"... but they really start only after people apply BTO. IF no body apply, they can say no demand and dont build lor
BTO prices increasing gradually as well
Bro, I dont know if I feel happy or sad for this group.
1. Happy
- they earn a lot more than their peers
- they will continue to earn a lot more in the future
2. Sad
- Got stuck in no man's land...
- earn a lot but not enough to save for downpayment for a condo
- have to choose between resale (pay price for earning a lot too early) or private(hopefully someone will help)
If they raise the ceiling, the chances of getting BTO gets slimmer as more people join the pot. If you look at the BTO, most of the time it is over subscribed.
:eek:
I from this sandwich class leh... resale got no $30k grant plus still got MOP.. end up buy PC :D :D
In the 1990s, there was this Queing system by HDB, where, the buyer just paid a token sum and booked an unit. There were >100,000 units booked and built. Came 1997, the crisis, lots of units built and booked were not taken up. HDB was burdened with many unsold units (cannot recall the numbers) at Yishun, Woodland and Jurong West. This took them many years to clear. So, in the 2000s, only couple of thousands were built. This was a very costly mistake or mis-call or mis-policy management. A complete mis-match of demand and supply.
Ok, come back to the topic proper. Resale flat, technically, is a non-subsidised flat, and should be freely available in the market. However, due to the followings, many ownership controls been introduced.
1. severe shortage, due to the under-built in the 2000s and increase in population and very long time frame for the units to be available in the resale market.
2. high yield and high capital appreciation
3. lower quantum.
As a result, there is a very strong demand. To control the price from keep on going up, ownership control is a must.
Those who own private properties, already have the financial means and therefore, should not allow to buy HDB resale, else, will elevate the shortage of HDB resale flats.
The govt shall, close the gap of social divider, or digital divider, to help the average or even lower income group to grow their wealth. As such, IMO, it is perfectly correct to allow the HDB flat owners to buy into private properties but not the other round.
Bro, today I good mood and share with you the past... In the past before MBT, the hdb was over built in Sengkang and Punggol. The bunch of people in Singapore very interesting leh... When too much, they take their time, dilly dally... Then 1997 came and the surplus not taken up and the govt kanna siong... Then cam MBT. start BTO... I think he was also the one that did selling price with discount (previously - cost plus). Govt coffers grew. Because of limit - everyone rust (over subscribe), people got married earlier to apply flat (forced by circumstances - majority). Guaranteed no oversupply. This Poa Ya !!!!
Let me ask you a few simple questions :
1. Is it in the interest of the govt to increase HDB prices?
2. How would you manage that if you are them?
3. Build too many, what if people dont take up offer?
Tired now, take a break. Hahahaha - Bro, understand the objective, then work out the strategy to achieve objective. Think like them and you will find your answer. Please dont think like yourself... Empathy my friend.
Cheers
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
Not asking them to build too many. just build more and earlier. BTO could be done in a different way. I'm sure you're good enough to think of another better alternative too :)
I'm not asking them to build blindly but let me ask you this question then. Does it hurt the govt more to have a few surplus flats or aging population?
They only "commit to build"... but they really start only after people apply BTO. IF no body apply, they can say no demand and dont build lor
BTO prices increasing gradually as well
Bro, absolutely correct :
Supply more than demand - price drop
Demand more than supply - price increase
What has MM been advocating all this while? Your house is an appreciating asset. So how to achieve this? Go figure.
If prices go up, the next gen will need to work for a long time. This will ensure a supply of work force.
I am neither for nor against this practice. I am simply pointing out my opinion. I may be wrong u know. Hahahahahaha
But ask yourself this question? D you want to be in this trap or get out?
So to 'action' or to 'bitch', that is the question.
As such, IMO, it is perfectly correct to allow the HDB flat owners to buy into private properties but not the other round.
But that's because yourself, and children are in this category already :D:cheers5:
Not asking them to build too many. just build more and earlier. BTO could be done in a different way. I'm sure you're good enough to think of another better alternative too :)
I'm not asking them to build blindly but let me ask you this question then. Does it hurt the govt more to have a few surplus flats or aging population?
Bro, I not PAP. I am only sharing my view of what they do and potentially why? I already found a solution for myself. We need to help ourselves. The govt is right to help the less fortunate. I do not mind contributing to income tax or whatever taxes to help society.
buttercarp
06-12-12, 20:29
In the 1990s, there was this Queing system by HDB, where, the buyer just paid a token sum and booked an unit. There were >100,000 units booked and built. Came 1997, the crisis, lots of units built and booked were not taken up. HDB was burdened with many unsold units (cannot recall the numbers) at Yishun, Woodland and Jurong West. This took them many years to clear. So, in the 2000s, only couple of thousands were built. This was a very costly mistake or mis-call or mis-policy management. A complete mis-match of demand and supply.
Ya, the good old days.
I remembered paying only about $200 to book a unit.
That time I was so young and innocent and did not know that there was a financial crisis going on.
But funny, that year 1997, the COE was rocket high. Was that before the crisis?
Bro, I not PAP. I am only sharing my view of what they do and potentially why? I already found a solution for myself. We need to help ourselves. The govt is right to help the less fortunate. I do not mind contributing to income tax or whatever taxes to help society.
yep definitely understand the intentions of PAP. I appreciate it too :):cheers5: I'm just pondering at the same time. Is shortage of flats a bigger issue than oversupply?
yep definitely understand the intentions of PAP. I appreciate it too :):cheers5: I'm just pondering at the same time. Is shortage of flats a bigger issue than oversupply?
So if you were them and you overbuilt, like in the past. What would be the consequence?
So if you were them and you overbuilt, like in the past. What would be the consequence?
bro im not from the PAP too :D:cheers4:
But that's because yourself, and children are in this category already :D:cheers5:
Oh NO...u got me wrong again
I wish everyone in my family can buy HDB flats....I wish Govt allow private property owners can buy HDB flats...
Oh NO...u got me wrong again
I wish everyone in my family can buy HDB flats....I wish Govt allow private property owners can buy HDB flats...
yea then everyone can have 1 each! imagine the rental income :scared-1: :scared-1:
I suspect by the time they retire, the HDB already SERS already...
so govt may not give them replacement flat since they own PC?
Will have replacement base on current policy just need to top up the value or take a new unit which is smaller. u cant discriminate becoz a person own a PC.
Bro, today I good mood and share with you the past... In the past before MBT, the hdb was over built in Sengkang and Punggol. The bunch of people in Singapore very interesting leh... When too much, they take their time, dilly dally... Then 1997 came and the surplus not taken up and the govt kanna siong... Then cam MBT. start BTO... I think he was also the one that did selling price with discount (previously - cost plus). Govt coffers grew. Because of limit - everyone rust (over subscribe), people got married earlier to apply flat (forced by circumstances - majority). Guaranteed no oversupply. This Poa Ya !!!!
Let me ask you a few simple questions :
1. Is it in the interest of the govt to increase HDB prices?
2. How would you manage that if you are them?
3. Build too many, what if people dont take up offer?
Tired now, take a break. Hahahaha - Bro, understand the objective, then work out the strategy to achieve objective. Think like them and you will find your answer. Please dont think like yourself... Empathy my friend.
Cheers
:cheers4::cheers4::cheers4:
well u cant please everyone..... anyway singaporean are like that no Q no one want. u have Q everyone will go cheong and Q it. like iPhone, like hello kitty , like H&M ........
Not asking them to build too many. just build more and earlier. BTO could be done in a different way. I'm sure you're good enough to think of another better alternative too :)
I'm not asking them to build blindly but let me ask you this question then. Does it hurt the govt more to have a few surplus flats or aging population?
How to gauge build more or less? people last time happy happy go Q.. so forecast n build when come time to commit. all walk off forfeit $5K . All this build up cost $.. who pay? tax payers $$ get tied up.
also there are maintenance cost to maintain the blocks of unit with no take up who pay? tax payer $ again.
so how would it benifit the people if tax payers $ are wasted that way?
Bro, I not PAP. I am only sharing my view of what they do and potentially why? I already found a solution for myself. We need to help ourselves. The govt is right to help the less fortunate. I do not mind contributing to income tax or whatever taxes to help society.
totaly agree with that.
yep definitely understand the intentions of PAP. I appreciate it too :):cheers5: I'm just pondering at the same time. Is shortage of flats a bigger issue than oversupply?
over supply bring more negativity than shortage. oversupply also bring un happeiness to existing owners who see thier assets (HDB) drop in value if the need to liquidate.
They will feel that the government are suppressing their house price.
As these dual owners can now rent out their HDB and use these rentals to pay for the installements of their condos, they are effectively staying in the condo for free. Why should they benefit at the expense of newly weds and others who badly need a resale flat and cannot afford the ridiculous COVs
I sometimes wonder why my boss stays in a GCB while I slog for him? He earn millions at the expense of me and my colleagues...:beats-me-man:
maybe he is better or luckier than me in some ways...
over supply bring more negativity than shortage. oversupply also bring un happeiness to existing owners who see thier assets (HDB) drop in value if the need to liquidate.
They will feel that the government are suppressing their house price.
thanks for sharing :D:cheers4: now we know aging population is less severe than oversupply of flats
thanks for sharing :D:cheers4: now we know aging population is less severe than oversupply of flats
Also over supply means more tax dollar wasted in maintaining and tied up. Also other down stream impact will be ur construction company , Main con , Sub Con all no business. coz eventually building will have to halt. they have to cut people. with that ur material supplies also suffer.
so its better to keep the demand constant and the eco system running constantly.
I sometimes wonder why my boss stays in a GCB while I slog for him? He earn millions at the expense of me and my colleagues...:beats-me-man:
maybe he is better or luckier than me in some ways...
Coz he got capital / guts / contacts?
Understand that more successful / people with more capital will always have an edge over those who dont, but my point on HDB is that it is meant to be PUBLIC housing... not for rich people to have an edge over poorer fellow citizens..
Bro, absolutely correct :
Supply more than demand - price drop
Demand more than supply - price increase
What has MM been advocating all this while? Your house is an appreciating asset. So how to achieve this? Go figure.
If prices go up, the next gen will need to work for a long time. This will ensure a supply of work force.
I am neither for nor against this practice. I am simply pointing out my opinion. I may be wrong u know. Hahahahahaha
But ask yourself this question? D you want to be in this trap or get out?
So to 'action' or to 'bitch', that is the question.
Learnt quite a lot from gurus in this forum
How can I "action"? buy 1 more PC? :D :D :D
Also over supply means more tax dollar wasted in maintaining and tied up. Also other down stream impact will be ur construction company , Main con , Sub Con all no business. coz eventually building will have to halt. they have to cut people. with that ur material supplies also suffer.
so its better to keep the demand constant and the eco system running constantly.
hope u read carefully that i suggested to build more not to cause another oversupply. :) it takes better planning. how often do we see an oversupply? only back in the crisis. Anyway i get your point about maintenance and monetary consequences. But maybe you're no longer affected by this BTO system. or was never part of it to begin with.
Imagine you're 27 and wish to get married and settled down ASAP. it takes you probably a good few months to join in the BTO launches (if you miss one then another few more months), another few to ballot and choose, and 3-5 years to build. by then you're near or over 30. How does this help to increase the Singapore population? How to have kids before 30?
Now you may say, why not apply earlier? Most singaporean men start their work life when they are 24-25. For the ladies, would you like your daughter to tell you she wish to "book" a HDB flat at 23-24 when the man is not even making money?
Coz he got capital / guts / contacts?
Understand that more successful / people with more capital will always have an edge over those who dont, but my point on HDB is that it is meant to be PUBLIC housing... not for rich people to have an edge over poorer fellow citizens..
but some Rich dude go buy a resale also make another not so rich dude richer than he could have been. That helps the guy who can liquidate his HDB is that having a edge over the poor ? or helping the poorer person? or we rather the pooer person go Ah long?
hope u read carefully that i suggested to build more not to cause another oversupply. :) it takes better planning. how often do we see an oversupply? only back in the crisis. Anyway i get your point about maintenance and monetary consequences. But maybe you're no longer affected by this BTO system. or was never part of it to begin with.
Imagine you're 27 and wish to get married and settled down ASAP. it takes you probably a good few months to join in the BTO launches (if you miss one then another few more months), another few to ballot and choose, and 3-5 years to build. by then you're near or over 30. How does this help to increase the Singapore population? How to have kids before 30?
My pt is hard to guage. people move in herd. when there are a fear that something is of limited supply all rush in. when they feel things are plentiful people cancel thier Q last min. wait to reapply. Its hard to guage if people are not commited or not.
That means have to plan to get married at 23 then? since when no house cannot get married? before the days of HDB people still get married live with parents for the son. The daugther go live with the son in law place. Or rent. Mean time can still go apply for flat.
That means have to plan to get married at 23 then? since when no house cannot get married? before the days of HDB people still get married live with parents for the son. The daugther go live with the son in law place. Or rent. Mean time can still go apply for flat.
When did i say that you can't get married without a house? yes there's always the option of living with parents. the same for the option of parents buying a flat for their kids. Like what Laguna did. But how many of such families are there?
So you're fine with your daughter marrying a guy at 23, a fresh grad from UNI?
Rent for 3-5 years? :cheers5: :D ok lar bro you win. no point arguing when you are so defensive. Cheers mate
Bro, absolutely correct :
Supply more than demand - price drop
Demand more than supply - price increase
What has MM been advocating all this while? Your house is an appreciating asset. So how to achieve this? Go figure.
If prices go up, the next gen will need to work for a long time. This will ensure a supply of work force.
I am neither for nor against this practice. I am simply pointing out my opinion. I may be wrong u know. Hahahahahaha
But ask yourself this question? D you want to be in this trap or get out?
So to 'action' or to 'bitch', that is the question.
I dont quite agree with the price go up next gen need to work longer... u mean price go down they dont have to work?
So say my dad time 1 HDB is 100K. then my time come HDB become 60K means I work less?
not really its a function of economy and value of the country. 60K could means we are in a hard time. could mean I lost my job too. yeah work less aka no work. eat grass too.
When did i say that you can't get married without a house? yes there's always the option of living with parents. the same for the option of parents buying a flat for their kids. Like what Laguna did. But how many of such families are there?
So you're fine with your daughter marrying a guy at 23, a fresh grad from UNI?
Rent for 3-5 years? :cheers5: :D ok lar bro you win. no point arguing when you are so defensive. Cheers mate
Bro cannot expect everything spoon fed. how people in country where there are no good public housing plans? how they survive? life goes on.
I dont quite agree with the price go up next gen need to work longer... u mean price go down they dont have to work?
So say my dad time 1 HDB is 100K. then my time come HDB become 60K means I work less?
not really its a function of economy and value of the country. 60K could means we are in a hard time. could mean I lost my job too. yeah work less aka no work. eat grass too.
If prices go up, will be take a longer time to pay off the loan???
The older generation will benefit from the rise. The newer generation will have higher debt. With higher debt, longer repayment....
Of course if you jump start at later years, u pay off the debt earlier.
But it does not apply to my family....
:D
Bro cannot expect everything spoon fed. how people in country where there are no good public housing plans? how they survive? life goes on.
precisely my point is telling you we shouldn't be spoon fed :doh: :doh:
I dont quite agree with the price go up next gen need to work longer... u mean price go down they dont have to work?
So say my dad time 1 HDB is 100K. then my time come HDB become 60K means I work less?
not really its a function of economy and value of the country. 60K could means we are in a hard time. could mean I lost my job too. yeah work less aka no work. eat grass too.
i think he meant paying off the loan. u can't retire as early now. But yea i know you gonna say we should work hard and earn more money hence this shouldnt be an issue:cheers5:
i think he meant paying off the loan. u can't retire as early now. But yea i know you gonna say we should work hard and earn more money hence this shouldnt be an issue:cheers5:
Wa, u can read people's mind ah???
So why did shi huang ti build the great wall? Other then protecting against the 'barbarians'?
I sometimes wonder why my boss stays in a GCB while I slog for him? He earn millions at the expense of me and my colleagues...:beats-me-man:
maybe he is better or luckier than me in some ways...
why dun you become a boss? then you will realise why he deserve the GCB
must quote bro chestnut - dun bitch, do something about it and get out of the cycle
but some Rich dude go buy a resale also make another not so rich dude richer than he could have been. That helps the guy who can liquidate his HDB is that having a edge over the poor ? or helping the poorer person? or we rather the pooer person go Ah long?
there are many many rich dudes out there who can afford to buy many many resale HDBs. imagine simon cheong give 300k to each of his kids and relatives, etc etc... ask them go and buy one hdb each. what will happen?
but the other way round. the current HDB owners.. how many of them can afford >1 PC? not many. else they would have moved out of their HDB long time ago.
this is the simple and easiest way to close the income gap, and it is market driven, needs no intervention from govt. and along the way, solve the foreign talent/trash/worker rental issue as well.
there are many many rich dudes out there who can afford to buy many many resale HDBs. imagine simon cheong give 300k to each of his kids and relatives, etc etc... ask them go and buy one hdb each. what will happen?
but the other way round. the current HDB owners.. how many of them can afford >1 PC? not many. else they would have moved out of their HDB long time ago.
this is the simple and easiest way to close the income gap, and it is market driven, needs no intervention from govt. and along the way, solve the foreign talent/trash/worker rental issue as well.
Well the current rule prevent Simon son from buying resale anyway. Since u are talking abt rich people . Do u think his son being rich will Ho get married early just to buy a flat? By time his son get married likly taking over family biz he would have exceed the income cap. N since they are rich do u think they care to own a HDB anyway?
He would more likly be given a pc 1st.
I think it's ok resale be bought by foreigners . Benefit Singaporean hdb seller. N new $ injected into system. If not is Singaporean to Singaporean where got new wealth creation for us Singaporean? New citizen come buy from old citizen. Only citizen get $$$ . New funds are injected inthe Eco system. Fair
Well the current rule prevent Simon son from buying resale anyway. Since u are talking abt rich people . Do u think his son being rich will Ho get married early just to buy a flat? By time his son get married likly taking over family biz he would have exceed the income cap. N since they are rich do u think they care to own a HDB anyway?
He would more likly be given a pc 1st.
i tot he would be given a GCB to start with. :scared-4:
anyway, maybe simon is a bad example becoz they are multi billionnaire. if you talk abt the upper middle class in sgp, say salary range 250-500k pa, these are the folks who will jump at a chance to buy a hdb to rent out given the good yields. the CM was to remove this group.
the proposed CM to stop HDB owners from buying 1 PC, and then rent out HDB, only serves to widen the income gap, ie: stop the sandwiched class/middle class from crossing over into the upper middle class. the govt has no incentive to interfere on this. in fact, the more rich pple the better, more tax to collect.
did you realise there is a tax incentive for the govt to allow HDB owners to buy PC and rent out their HDB? most of them, their HDB is already fully paid. that means no interest expense to offset rental income. also, other costs such as mortgage insurance expense (on the new condo) also not deductible against HDB rental income. of coz, there's the other side of the argument - rent out PC got higher rental income to tax. anyway, all this is small money on the macro picture.
anyway this discussion will go nowhere because there are the 4 types of pple mentioned above and they will all be swimming in their own pool of thoughts.
shan't comment further on this issue. :tongue3: cheers!
i tot he would be given a GCB to start with. :scared-4:
anyway, maybe simon is a bad example becoz they are multi billionnaire. if you talk abt the upper middle class in sgp, say salary range 250-500k pa, these are the folks who will jump at a chance to buy a hdb to rent out given the good yields. the CM was to remove this group.
the proposed CM to stop HDB owners from buying 1 PC, and then rent out HDB, only serves to widen the income gap, ie: stop the sandwiched class/middle class from crossing over into the upper middle class. the govt has no incentive to interfere on this. in fact, the more rich pple the better, more tax to collect.
did you realise there is a tax incentive for the govt to allow HDB owners to buy PC and rent out their HDB? most of them, their HDB is already fully paid. that means no interest expense to offset rental income. also, other costs such as mortgage insurance expense (on the new condo) also not deductible against HDB rental income. of coz, there's the other side of the argument - rent out PC got higher rental income to tax. anyway, all this is small money on the macro picture.
anyway this discussion will go nowhere because there are the 4 types of pple mentioned above and they will all be swimming in their own pool of thoughts.
shan't comment further on this issue. :tongue3: cheers!
sure.. anyway just 1 last comment..
i am not for the proposal CM to stop HDB owners from buying a PC n rent out HDB. I think thats actually a incentive to do so. its a good thing for original 1st time buyers and help close the income gap.
A lot of us are here today becoz of that model. It works and I hope it continue to be ard for my kids.
East Lover
07-12-12, 09:03
sure.. anyway just 1 last comment..
i am not for the proposal CM to stop HDB owners from buying a PC n rent out HDB. I think thats actually a incentive to do so. its a good thing for original 1st time buyers and help close the income gap.
A lot of us are here today becoz of that model. It works and I hope it continue to be ard for my kids.
I totally agreed with you! :cheers4:
... upper middle class in sgp, say salary range 250-500k pa, these are the folks who will jump at a chance to buy a hdb to rent out given the good yields.
dun think so. this group is not interested in hdb at all.
to get 5% yield from a 200k investment, this group has a lot of other better instruments to play with. hdb rental is hardly a "yield". it not only attracts tax, it has too many hassles and costs.
I'm with minority, hdb rental is truly for the ordinary sporeans to have a means to move up.
dun think so. this group is not interested in hdb at all.
to get 5% yield from a 200k investment, this group has a lot of other better instruments to play with. hdb rental is hardly a "yield". it not only attracts tax, it has too many hassles and costs.
I'm with minority, hdb rental is truly for the ordinary sporeans to have a means to move up.
Very true... with 200k capital, one can go into stock /gold markets in a meaningful way during dips with no capital gains tax- much higher than net yield from HDB (which could be higher than 6% as property is leveraged, after netting top bracket tax and interest deductibility) which is subject to HDB sub-leasing rules
dun think so. this group is not interested in hdb at all.
to get 5% yield from a 200k investment, this group has a lot of other better instruments to play with. hdb rental is hardly a "yield". it not only attracts tax, it has too many hassles and costs.
True...and not many keep HDB for rental..only less than 5% in whole HDB market are in rental. Most of the upgraders may in fact plan not to keep their HDB when upgrade, see how the private and EC price up and up , u can predict how much COV they expect to ask for next time when their turn to sell their HDB....:2cents:
heard those with cash have already run away from residential and go into another altenative area taking into consideration of the followings:
1)where there is no CM currently and no forseeable CM in the future too
2)...with low interest and QE money coming in
3)To be tied down a whoppy 40 to 60% and can sell 4 yrs later in residential area w/o penalty?
:o
lets say if new CM come up with you must sell away your HDB flat when u own a PC, would you sell your HDB or PC?
propertyhans
10-12-12, 22:46
Don't think such a cm will come that will disallow HDB owners to buy PC. At most impose heavier tax for folks that rent out HDB to appease the public. There has been alot of public focus on this issue recently.... maybe they are setting the stage? Who knows.
dun think so. this group is not interested in hdb at all.
to get 5% yield from a 200k investment, this group has a lot of other better instruments to play with. hdb rental is hardly a "yield". it not only attracts tax, it has too many hassles and costs.
I'm with minority, hdb rental is truly for the ordinary sporeans to have a means to move up.
thank u so please leave us ordinary sporeans alone...:D :cheers4:
They should reinstate this rule where private property owners with HDB have to stay in their HDB.
If they choose to leave it vacant, its their choice. The opporunity cost should encourage these dual owners to sell off the HDB and increase the supply of resale flats to those who need it more than them
As these dual owners can now rent out their HDB and use these rentals to pay for the installements of their condos, they are effectively staying in the condo for free. Why should they benefit at the expense of newly weds and others who badly need a resale flat and cannot afford the ridiculous COVs
Dont worry, the next cooling will address this issue.
Looking back at this discussion last month, the coolings measures have come VERY CLOSE to addressing the issue of HDB owner renting out HDB and stay in PC:
1) ABSD on second property effectively encourages SC to sell off their HDB if they upgrade to PC, thereby increasing the resale flat supply
2) For PR, they need to stay in the HDB or sell it if they have PC, which will have the effect of releasing more units (either HDB or PC) into the market
3) Govt is also effectively encouraging mutiple property owners to sell now when they can before interest rates creep up in 2014/2015 and reduce their profit. Always remember that in order to make a profit, you need to find a willing buyer. How many willing buyers are there now given that PR need to pay 5% ABSD, foreigner 15%? The buyer pool will diminish as long as the "temporary ABSD" is not removed. In my view for mutiple PC owners its better to start marketing their property now and find a bigger buyer pool as soon as possible before the interest rate comes up. Do not have to worry about "Sell easy, hard to buy back" as by that time, these temporary ABSD would be removed and they can buy again.
Looking back at this discussion last month, the coolings measures have come VERY CLOSE to addressing the issue of HDB owner renting out HDB and stay in PC:
1) ABSD on second property effectively encourages SC to sell off their HDB if they upgrade to PC, thereby increasing the resale flat supply
2) For PR, they need to stay in the HDB or sell it if they have PC, which will have the effect of releasing more units (either HDB or PC) into the market
3) Govt is also effectively encouraging mutiple property owners to sell now when they can before interest rates creep up in 2014/2015 and reduce their profit. Always remember that in order to make a profit, you need to find a willing buyer. How many willing buyers are there now given that PR need to pay 5% ABSD, foreigner 15%? The buyer pool will diminish as long as the "temporary ABSD" is not removed. In my view for mutiple PC owners its better to start marketing their property now and find a bigger buyer pool as soon as possible before the interest rate comes up. Do not have to worry about "Sell easy, hard to buy back" as by that time, these temporary ABSD would be removed and they can buy again.
frankly wats a 5%? 50K for a 1M and 100K for 1 2M?
if u need a place to stay its not a lot to pay. almost = to 2 yrs rental.
either buy or take a bet the price will go down?
wat if stays flat? back to square 1? waste 2 yrs rental?
There seems to be a misconception that rising rates will lead to falling prices. Perhaps some agents out there want you to believe that. Someone in this forum got it. Look in the history back in 1993-1995 and 2003-2006. You will find your answers there.
There seems to be a misconception that rising rates will lead to falling prices. Perhaps some agents out there want you to believe that. Someone in this forum got it. Look in the history back in 1993-1995 and 2003-2006. You will find your answers there.
Rising interest rates usually means booming economy.
However the real risk is stagflation.
Stagflation means asset prices are going up. National income could stagnate and remain at tlstatus quo. The risk will be on those who are asset light.
Stagflation means asset prices are going up. National income could stagnate and remain at tlstatus quo. The risk will be on those who are asset light.
USA inflation rises beyond 2% and sibor rates have to go up. While global economies turn weaker and causing a recession in Singapore together with rising interest rates.
When global economies hit a significant recession, inflation will cool down again and rates will remain low.
After spending so much money on QE. The dumbest thing they can do is raise rates when there is significant risk of recession.
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