View Full Version : Call by Chua Mui Hong to increase supply of resale flats
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/181112skybox_09.jpg
Guess most people have read Chua Mui Hong's article in The Sunday Times today on the need to increase supply of resale HDB flats. Be prepared for some policy changes to HDB resale flat soon.
My take is that it may make sense to sell your HDB flats now at current high price before more owners are "forced" to sell soon.
Just my thoughts!
i have read, but i dont agree...in my opinion, as what BW has said, it takes times to cool the market and all the CMs are slowly taking effect. Be patience....as what he says, it is working. u dont need another CM :)
In the article, she mentioned that she is not in favor of banning the PR from buying HDB but i think, i would rather that PR cannot buy HDB. If they want to stay for long, convert to citizen, if not for long, then please rent. if cannot afford PC rental, then go HDB rental which is why there is a need to have the 4% HDB owner to provide the rental of HDB, if not, another problem. Why should we let PR profit from HDB when they are not part of nation building or if they do not want to convert to citizen. when they are citizen, then they can have a bite...
if we keep having this rule that rule and then tell ppl this is free market, i think it is very nonsense...
another point she brought up about HDB appreciation. If i know that today i buy HDB for 200K and then 20yrs later i can only sell for 250k, then I might as well rent from garmen, who would buy if it doesn't appreciate?? or appreciate not even enough to cover inflation...
The article needs more than just a look and you will realise that it is not as simple as what she mentioned.
Anyway, this is just my opinion.:o :2cents:
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/181112skybox_09.jpg
Guess most people have read Chua Mui Hong's article in The Sunday Times today on the need to increase supply of resale HDB flats. Be prepared for some policy changes to HDB resale flat soon.
My take is that it may make sense to sell your HDB flats now at current high price before more owners are "forced" to sell soon.
Just my thoughts!
Sleepyhead
18-11-12, 17:36
Agree with most of your points, but not fair to say PR don't contribute to nation building.
They pay taxes like you and me.
Their sons serve NS like yours and mine.
In addition, they get fall lower down the list when it comes to housing and schooling etc... So cannot complain already hor.
Asking them to give up home country citizenship to take up Singapore citizenship is rather harsh and unfair. There couldn't more than meets the eye.. Eg. Elderly parents, etc. not so simple.
Disclaimer: I am not a PR.
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/181112skybox_09.jpg
I think we should not under estimate Ms Chua and her thinking. She is no ordinary journalist. She knows the workings of the government just like Mr Han Fook Kwang who wrote in the same paper urging the government to let resale flats for citizens only just 2 weeks ago.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15547
Their writings about resale HDB flats within a short period of 2 weeks cannot be ignored.
I believe more CM is coming soon to curb prices of resale HDB flats. It could be next week when HDB announces its last sale of BTO flats for the year. Keep your ears wide open.
When u have limited choice, that is what we say no choice. It is also unfair to our citizen that they enjoy the benefit here and got to keep their citizenship elsewhere...why, because they want to return one day to where they come. So if u let them rip the benefit and go, that is fair?? :confused:
Anyway, just my opinion. When it comes to such, they have their right to choose and we also have our rite to keep the benefit for citizen.
Either they convert and stay or then just thank you and they go...which is what they want also, if here no good no benefit, they will come and help u build your nation? Think....there is already mutual benefit but when it goes deeper, then sorry, this is the limit.
:2cents:
No Offence...:cheers1:
Agree with most of your points, but not fair to say PR don't contribute to nation building.
They pay taxes like you and me.
Their sons serve NS like yours and mine.
In addition, they get fall lower down the list when it comes to housing and schooling etc... So cannot complain already hor.
Asking them to give up home country citizenship to take up Singapore citizenship is rather harsh and unfair. There couldn't more than meets the eye.. Eg. Elderly parents, etc. not so simple.
Disclaimer: I am not a PR.
http://www.asiaone.com/A1Business/General%2BNews/Story/A1Story20121116-383895.html
he already say CMs working if introduce some more and market go upside down who answer...:scared-5:
ya maybe on PR buying resale hdb maybe...:2cents:
I think we should not under estimate Ms Chua and her thinking. She is no ordinary journalist. She knows the workings of the government just like Mr Han Fook Kwang who wrote in the same paper urging the government to let resale flats for citizens only just 2 weeks ago.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15547
Their writings about resale HDB flats within a short period of 2 weeks cannot be ignored.
I believe more CM is coming soon to curb prices of resale HDB flats. It could be next week when HDB announces its last sale of BTO flats for the year. Keep your ears wide open.
By Chua Mui Hoong, Opinion Editor
A property agent friend rang last week with two bits of news she wanted to discuss.
First, she said, the rental market is very weak. She had put up a Housing Board flat for rent and was shocked at how slow the response was. "Lots of foreigners are going home, they can't renew their passes," she explained.
The second issue: prices of HDB resale flats. She is worried for her sons, and whether they can afford their own home. "Crazy," she said, referring to reports of the Queenstown flat that sold for $1million and the executive condominium unit reportedly fetching $1.6million. "Will the Government let this continue?"
Each year, about 30,000 couples get hitched. Assuming those aged 26 to 30 are waiting to get married, that's five cohorts of 30,000 couples worried about whether they can afford a flat, or 150,000 couples.
Since each couple has four parents, that's 600,000 Singaporean parents fretting over runaway housing prices.
No wonder the subject spawns plenty of chatter online and in the mainstream media and in coffee shops.
The worry is that soaring HDB resale flat prices will feed into higher prices for new subsidised flats, and put HDB housing beyond the reach of the average worker.
Why resale flat prices soar appears puzzling at first glance.
Basic economics tells us prices turn on demand and supply.
First, consider the demand side. Why is there such strong demand for HDB flats in a country with 90 per cent home ownership?
The answer lies in three words: newlyweds, foreigners and churn.
The first are young couples forming new households.
The second are permanent residents (PRs) allowed to buy HDB flats, who make up 20 per cent of recent HDB resale flat transactions.
The third refers to folks who have sold their own homes (either HDB or private property) for whatever reason and need a new place.
You can curb demand to cool prices. In fact, the Government has done so, by building more build-to-order flats to cater to newlyweds and some of the churners; and by requiring those who own private property in Singapore or overseas to sell their other properties if they buy an HDB flat.
But I think more effort needs to go into the supply side of the equation.
To do this, we need to understand why the supply of resale flats is so limited.
The number of resale flats sold has fallen over the years: from 39,320 in FY2009, to 30,061 in FY2010 and 24,331 in FY2011. That's a fall of 38 per cent in three years.
At the same time, the number of flats put up for sub-letting has increased: from 27,256 to 36,440 to 41,162 over the same three-year period to FY2011. That's a rise of 51 per cent.
Clearly, more HDB flat-owners who don't need their flats to live in are finding it more worthwhile to rent them out than sell them.
Why?
In part it is due to new restrictions being imposed on the purchase of resale flats, dissuading existing flat-owners from selling, for fear they can't buy an HDB resale flat in future.
If you own both private property and an HDB resale flat for example, you're unlikely to sell the latter. If you did, you'd find that current rules prevent you from purchasing an HDB resale flat in future unless you're prepared to sell off your private property too.
But the real answer to why folks want to rent out, not sell, their resale flat, lies in one word: Yield.
With good rental, it becomes attractive to rent out your HDB flat for an income stream, rather than sell it now for instant capital gains.
Would you sell your four-room flat for $400,000 now? Or hold on to it, get $2,200 a month or $26,400 in annual rental income for 10 years, and then sell it in 2022, by which time you hope the price goes up to $600,000?
It's a no-brainer. A steady income stream today, with possible capital appreciation tomorrow, gives every reason for HDB flat-owners to hang on to their money-making machine.
What works for an individual HDB landlord, however, may not be ideal for society as a whole.
If fewer resale flats come onto the market, prices will remain inflated, and all the cooling measures on the demand side won't be effective.
This is why I think there must be measures to boost the supply of resale flats too.
You can't mandate or force HDB flat-owners to sell their flats. That would be politically untenable and goes against the free market here.
But you can create incentives and disincentives to change the equation for HDB landlords.
The basic philosophy is to persuade folks who don't need an HDB flat to live in, to sell it.
First, permanent residents who own HDB flats. I am not in favour of banning PRs from buying HDB resale flats. After all, they live and work in Singapore and need affordable housing too.
But they must live in the flats. This means requiring them to sell their HDB flat when they leave Singapore. HDB has also introduced rules to limit the number of years PRs can sub-let their flats.
Second, make sure the rental income of HDB flat landlords is declared and taxed. Those who rent out their flats now need to declare this to the HDB, including stating the amount of rental.
HDB and the Inland Revenue Authority of Singapore must work seamlessly to ensure taxes are paid. This will increase the tax liability of those who already earn good incomes. If they are in the top income bracket, every 20 cents of their rental dollar go back to the taxman.
Third, on top of the usual tax on income, impose a special levy on HDB rental income for those who also own private property. There are about 33,000 of them, or 4 per cent of the total HDB stock.
The levy can be justified as a redistribution measure. After all, this group doesn't need a home to live in and are wealthy enough to afford private housing. Meanwhile, their younger or less wealthy compatriots are being priced out of the basic housing market.
The free market allows landlords to collect rental. The state then steps in to impose a levy to alter the equation for the landlord, to persuade him to give up his title and sell the property.
A levy of, say, 50 per cent can tilt the balance towards selling rather than renting. High-income private property owners making money from their HDB flats will have to pay 20 cents per dollar in tax, and another 50 cents in levy. They get to keep only 30 cents per dollar of rent.
Some will consider it worthwhile to hold on to their HDB flats anyway, perhaps because they want to retire in one, or give it to their children. At the margin, however, there will be a number who figure it makes better financial sense to sell their HDB flats now while the market is robust.
If more units come onto the market, prices will certainly adjust.
More pertinently, it sends a clear signal to Singaporeans that while HDB flats can appreciate in value, they should not be traded like a high-yield investment asset. A high tax on rental yield will send such a message sharply.
Is this a drastic measure? Not by any means.
It will hit only those who own both HDB flats and private property. It's less intrusive than outright bans or tighter ownership restrictions.
It's certainly less drastic than the Singapore Democratic Party (SDP) proposal to build a category of flats which can't be sold on the open market and can be priced lower. I applaud the SDP for its serious engagement on this issue and believe Singapore would be a richer society if opposition parties paid the same level of attention to policy proposals. But I belong to the category of those who don't think it's a good idea to deny lower-income households the opportunity to benefit from increases in value of their homes. There are other ways to help the bottom 40 per cent of households afford their own homes: build smaller flats, give more generous grants, offer interest-free loans.
In contrast, a levy on rental income from HDB flats is a fiscal measure that can be easily tweaked: If 50 per cent is not right, tweak it to 30, or 70. It hits the HDB landlord-investor right where it hurts most: his pocket. It can tilt the balance to make it less attractive for those who don't need a roof over their head to buy a resale flat.
Nor should there be concerns about a levy being passed on by landlords to tenants, inflating rental costs. As Singapore tightens the tap on foreign manpower, rental demand will soften in the years to come. It will become a tenants' market, and landlords won't be able to hold tenants to ransom.
[email protected]
http://www.tremeritus.com/2010/02/11/chua-mui-hoong-rising-resale-flat-prices-reflect-genuine-pent-up-demand-spurred-by-high-levels-of-immigration/
After pussy-footing for the last few months and finding scapegoats to deflect blame from HDB, finally one person from the establishment dares to step forward and say the truth about the real reason behind the sky-rocketing HDB flat prices – former ISD officer and now Senior Writer of the Straits Times Chua Mui Hoong.
In an editorial published in the Straits Times today, Ms Chua wrote:
“The way I see it, rising resale flat prices reflect genuine pent-up demand spurred by high levels of immigration. They do not seem to be driven by speculative frenzy. Those priced out of the market may find it emotionally satisfying to finger PRs or speculators as scapegoats than to acknowledge that the market is moving faster than one’s income and savings can keep up with.”
She cannot be more right: though PRs are partly responsible for the spike in prices, they should not bear blame because they need a roofs over their heads as well.
The blame should like entirely on the government for allowing too many foreigners into Singapore within too short a period of time without building adequate number of new flats to house them thereby leading to the situation we are in today.
Young Singaporean couples are being priced out of the HDB market and either have to rent their own places or stay with their parents for the time-being, hardly ideal conditions for them to start a family of their own.
Common sense tells us that an increased population will definitely increase the demand of housing and prices will only go up if the demand is not met.
Since the new flats need a few years to construct, the onus is on HDB to plan way ahead and build adequate number of flats to meet future needs and not to be “caught offguard” by building more flats only now which does not relieve the shortage in the housing market at all.
According to figures from the Ministry of Home Affairs, there are nearly 100,000 immigrants including both new citizens and PRs in the year 2008 alone, but only 3,183 new flats were built in 2008:
[Source: HDB Financial Report 2008/2009]
It doesn’t take a statistician to come to the conclusion that the number of flats built were grossly inadequate to meet the demand of a rapidly increasing population.
The decrease in the number of new flats built by HDB coincides with the sky-rocketing prices of resale flats as Singaporeans needing a roof over their heads are forced to purchase a more expensive flat in the resale market thereby contributing to the overall price inflation:
Though HDB is now “ramping up the supply of new flats”, it is too late to meet present demand and Singaporeans will have to pay a hefty price for its lack of foresight in building more flats earlier to cater to the needs of a growing population.
The ruling party has been finding all kinds of excuses to cover their most glaring mistake from pinning the blame to fussy Singapore buyers, speculative frenzy and some people are buying HDB flats for rental income which all do not explain the astronomical prices:
1. If Singaporeans and PRs are indeed “flip-flopping” HDB flats for profits, why is HDB not taking any measures now to prevent the situation from spiralling out of control?
2. Unlike private properties, there are strict rules governing renting HDB flats with a minimum occupancy period of 5 years for new flats and 1 year for resale flats. It doesn’t make sense for an investor to fork out so much cash to buy a resale flat for rental purposes due to the time lag when he can well invest in private properties with higher rental yield.
The prices of HDB flats have doubled in the last five years or so: this is not “asset appreciation”, but a property bubble – the HDB flats are valued much more than they are actually worth because of a gross lack of supply in a market monopolized by one single provider.
The laws of economics dictate that the prices will not go up indefinitely, they will have to come down at one point or another because it is impossible for wages to catch up with it and when it comes crashing down, Singaporeans who have paid ridiculously high prices for the flats now will be plunged into financial distress as banks come calling in for them to top up their mortgage loans.
Singaporeans should start demanding answers from HDB: give us the exact breakdown costs of each unit of HDB and explain why so few flats were built when the population has been expected to grow in the next few years.
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http://ifonlysingaporeans.blogspot.fr/2012/05/case-for-insuring-unhealthy-minority.html
THURSDAY, 3 MAY 2012
The case for insuring the unhealthy minority
State needs to compel insurers to cover pre-existing conditions
By Chua Mui Hoong, The Straits Times, 2 May 2012
I AM all of 43, earn a decent salary each month, and have assets in the bank. But I belong to the ranks of Singaporeans terrified of growing sick and old, who fear that all our savings will be wiped out by illness and that we will age alone and in pain in a rental flat, or some home for the destitute run by the state.
In my case, it isn't just paranoia.
At 43, I am uninsurable.
when ms chua speaks up, better sit up and plan for next course of action. mountains will shake.
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 20:21
I seriously questioned the EQ of some low class reporter who always give low class brainless comments in the newspaper.
What if I am retired, I stay in the master bedroom and my kids all married and I rent the rooms out for my income, also need to tax?
Sometimes I also seriously questioned also the EQ and quality of our scholar government when introducing policy, the worst one I ever come across is the domestic helper need to go weekly off, it will be a pain for those caregiver to elderly at home, the domestic helper still needed to look after the elderly while the caregiver has to bring their children to tuitions etc during weekends and have to pay extra money for helper to stay home and maybe the helper also rather have off then to stay at home for extra money.
You may say no need go tuition, but isn't this also policy maker flop in the education policy which lead to this kind of tuition culture. If the educators argue not, then why the ang mo country not so stress and got no tuition like us?
We the sandwiches class have to take care of elderly and have to take of children and I work 7 days a week (5 week days in office and 2 weekends busy with the kids), what kind of work balance employer and government are hubbing? For taking care of the elderly and children, we the sandwiched class are at this era paying an unprecedent high fees for both taking care of elderly and children at the same time. Who's fault is this for the kind of life we are leading, obvious the policy makers.
Reporters, policy makers, think hard, consult the people harder before making s t u p i d recommendations / policies because you will never understand us because you can never be one of us.
when ms chua speaks up, better sit up and plan for next course of action. mountains will shake.
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/181112skybox_09.jpg
I concur!
if she has a twitter, i make damn sure i FOLLOW
if they force me to sell my hdb..i sure see MP...KNS...i stay HDB...i buy BUC condo ready in 3 years time...now u ask me sell my hdb...stay where...changi beach...:tsk-tsk:
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 20:46
It's a prelude to give tax man the excuse to collect tax. Only tax man can earn money, we poor citizen has no right to earn money. (只许州官放火,不许百姓点灯)
Out of the 2 evil, I would think SDP's suggestion is better because housing is for staying. Maybe I suggest a 3rd evil, make all rental in this country illegal, so no excuse for taxing the rental.
On taxation, million dollar questions are,
1. Does ERP successfully curbed road congestions?
2. Does COE successfully curbed road congestions?
The answer is obvious to above 2 questions. Why quota by Cert paying, why not just say the quota number and no money involved.
By taxing the rental, it will only cause rental to increase, when rental (part of cost of living) increase, many other items will increase and thus inflation.
I don quite agree with Ms Chua that the HDB rental market is weak then why is owners still asking high
rent.
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 20:49
Am I talking too much?
Cheng Hu chia wa lim kopi?
But I am really really piss with this kind of comments in papers, and whoever thought of this behind this.
This is not only a 'FINE' country as we see in some T-Shirts, it is a 'TAX' country.
this under supply is only temporary...1 or 2 years more we will have ample supply...:cool:
when ms chua speaks up, better sit up and plan for next course of action. mountains will shake.
she is a nobody.
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 20:58
If high rental tax can tilt people into selling, hmm... another stupid argument.
If I already fully pay the flat, if I don't stay, I also do not rent, why must I sell? I can keep it for my children to inherit what.
See all the arguments are hollow in the papers by this reporter and the one who coin the idea.
hahaha, you are among the 4% and if they start to act on this 4% mean they are very desperate liao....besides, don't think acting on this 4% will cool the resale market, and worst, it will destabilize the rental market...:2cents: :o
i think...
just a pure supply and demand situation on the hdb market. the supply side already coming up so it will take time. If act further will rock the whole boat and will be very very dangerous.
if they force me to sell my hdb..i sure see MP...KNS...i stay HDB...i buy BUC condo ready in 3 years time...now u ask me sell my hdb...stay where...changi beach...:tsk-tsk:
this under supply is only temporary...1 or 2 years more we will have ample supply...:cool:
I don't think so...
Bro, can I just ask u a few simple question :
1. When ever there is a BTO project, how many apply and how many are available?
2. How many married and how many falts built?
Reference info
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/marriages.pdf
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_08DD52D113CA795C9AEF862F006E51E0EB8D0100/filename/STATISTICS%20AND%20CHARTS.pdf
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/hist/popn.html
I don't think so...
Bro, can I just ask u a few simple question :
1. When ever there is a BTO project, how many apply and how many are available?
2. How many married and how many falts built?
Reference info
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/marriages.pdf
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/pv_obj_cache/pv_obj_id_08DD52D113CA795C9AEF862F006E51E0EB8D0100/filename/STATISTICS%20AND%20CHARTS.pdf
http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/people/hist/popn.html
i dunno bro but i know everybody cheong to apply for those hot BTO..i.e queenstown/bedok/bukit merah...etc...and all those ulu type in sengkang corner kena reject...the marriage part quite sensitive...dunno marry cos
of love spouse or love HDB..:scared-1:
i dunno bro but i know everybody cheong to apply for those hot BTO..i.e queenstown/bedok/bukit merah...etc...and all those ulu type in sengkang corner kena reject...the marriage part quite sensitive...dunno marry cos
of love spouse or love HDB..:scared-1:
Bro, sengkang now hot leh.... Punggol also hot...
They are definitely shot over past few years....
They will never overbuilt... Why? Because bto can commence only a certain number has been met..l based on my past knowledge of how bto works... Unless they changed the ruling.
if they force me to sell my hdb..i sure see MP...KNS...i stay HDB...i buy BUC condo ready in 3 years time...now u ask me sell my hdb...stay where...changi beach...:tsk-tsk:
I think Ms Chua idea is to discourage private property owners to keep their HDB flats for rental yield through taxation. It shouldn't affect you unless you choose to rent out your HDB flat when your new PC is ready.
I think Ms Chua idea is to discourage private property owners to keep their HDB flats for rental yield through taxation. It shouldn't affect you unless you choose to rent out your HDB flat when your new PC is ready.
Bro, it shouldn't affect him because govt did not implement... Hahaha...
She not authority... She editor... Hahahaha.
If she Minster of National development, I believe....
Hahahaha:D
Which other country allows non citizens to own public housing units?
Which other country allows owners of private properties to own public housing units?
Just admit it. We are dysfunctional.
rent out hdb sala meh??:o
some ppl sell their hdb for a one time profit can, and some ppl want to milk the cow slowly cannot meh??:scared-5:
both also pay for their HDB, no diff, just see how you take your profit thats all. Shouldn't do until like that also control. siao eh...:doh:
:2cents:
I think Ms Chua idea is to discourage private property owners to keep their HDB flats for rental yield through taxation. It shouldn't affect you unless you choose to rent out your HDB flat when your new PC is ready.
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 21:27
The article on tremeritus at least sounds like someone who talks with brain.
buttercarp
18-11-12, 21:29
Which other country allows non citizens to own public housing units?
Which other country allows owners of private properties to own public housing units?
Just admit it. We are dysfunctional.
Which country has such beautiful, clean and comfortable public housing?
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 21:37
Where got clean? Clean not only just flat but must be it's surround environment too.
Didn't someone say Singaporean don't know how to keep Singapore clean anymore.
Honestly, those open ground are really full of rubbish when those people have their gathering and leave their rubbish behind.
Firstly, what has this got to do with EQ?
Wrt domestic help, as a human being do you think it is reasonable to deny another human being some relief from work once a week? Would you work like that?
I think you may be deficient in family values because you consider spending time with your children and elderly tending to them and caring for them on weekends as work.... something you would rather relegate to your foreign maid.
Wrt tuition, it is what you expect from your children that is causing them stress.... it is the Asian culture. We are not worse off (in fact better) than other Asian cultures (Japan, Korea, China, Hong Kong, India....etc) in this respect.
You can blame the government all you want, but if your child shows you his report card of all "C"s and if you are OK with it, I guarantee your child will have no stress. That is the "ang mo" culture, let the kids develop and self motivate, do you think you as a parent can be so open minded?
Lastly, before you say things like "because you will never understand us because you can never be one of us" I think you need to understand who this Ms Chua is and what is her background before you make such a comment. Please don't use the word "us" and drag the rest of Singapore with you.
This is just an opinion piece, the kind of thoughts you are harboring implies you have a "born loser" mentality.
If the majority of Singaporeans are really ungracious and thoughtless like you, I think we are a doomed nation.
I seriously questioned the EQ of some low class reporter who always give low class brainless comments in the newspaper.
What if I am retired, I stay in the master bedroom and my kids all married and I rent the rooms out for my income, also need to tax?
Sometimes I also seriously questioned also the EQ and quality of our scholar government when introducing policy, the worst one I ever come across is the domestic helper need to go weekly off, it will be a pain for those caregiver to elderly at home, the domestic helper still needed to look after the elderly while the caregiver has to bring their children to tuitions etc during weekends and have to pay extra money for helper to stay home and maybe the helper also rather have off then to stay at home for extra money.
You may say no need go tuition, but isn't this also policy maker flop in the education policy which lead to this kind of tuition culture. If the educators argue not, then why the ang mo country not so stress and got no tuition like us?
We the sandwiches class have to take care of elderly and have to take of children and I work 7 days a week (5 week days in office and 2 weekends busy with the kids), what kind of work balance employer and government are hubbing? For taking care of the elderly and children, we the sandwiched class are at this era paying an unprecedent high fees for both taking care of elderly and children at the same time. Who's fault is this for the kind of life we are leading, obvious the policy makers.
Reporters, policy makers, think hard, consult the people harder before making s t u p i d recommendations / policies because you will never understand us because you can never be one of us.
While it is true that there are many indirect taxes, Singapore is still one of the least taxed country in the world. Both in personal and coporate taxes. Many people do not even pay income tax but pay consumption tax in the form of GST.
The kind of taxes we pay pales in comparison to many countries.
Am I talking too much?
Cheng Hu chia wa lim kopi?
But I am really really piss with this kind of comments in papers, and whoever thought of this behind this.
This is not only a 'FINE' country as we see in some T-Shirts, it is a 'TAX' country.
aiya live n let live ba... some people raw nerves kena trampled on liao. sensitive sure will react adversely ma.
Just TCSS only sir
aiya live n let live ba... some people raw nerves kena trampled on liao. sensitive sure will react adversely ma.
aiya live n let live ba... some people raw nerves kena trampled on liao. sensitive sure will react adversely ma.
The thing that make u all special is the sensitivity u have for people... Very special... Cheers my friend...:cheers4: :cheers4:
If rental market is softening like what she has described, then I don't think there's a need to tax 70cts to every dollar earned. The disincentive is already in place. Forcing people to sell their hdb will merely push the demand into the next tier, the smaller private condo units, making it even more difficult to upgrade which will be just as unpopular an outcome.
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 22:26
Maybe today I took the wrong medicine :D
Don't just extract some points to bombard, what about the retired, should their rental be taxed too when they are relying it to keep themselves going?
Anyway, all this are already my past, I need not take children to tuition anymore, they have outgrown it.
I am just saying that in theory, it is not possible for parents with 2 kids to bring them to tuition at different place at the same time and also to take care of their elderly parents at the same time, that is why you need an extra pair of hands. So now you ever wonder why Singaporean (the young ones) always say, "why have kids?" or "why marry in the first place?", these are some quite common saying you can hear on the street from these youngster.
So I can see that you do not mind you child getting 'C', good for you, but I am sure you are not the majority. By the way I children in both side of the spectrum. So you don't come and tell me about 'A' or 'D', I know better than you and I managed them differently.
I do know other countries have higher taxes, my secondary school ang mo teacher told me before when I am very young. But even if our tax is low, does it justify by raising tax to solve a problem which is not effectively solved? Just admit it that COE is a failed system which does not work at all. By the way, I do not drive and I do not own a car not because I cannot effort, just that I do need one.
Whether someone is or isn't born loser mentality is not just by what you say. I think I have managed my own situation well enough. And I am just saying things in general.
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/181112skybox_09.jpg
Guess most people have read Chua Mui Hong's article in The Sunday Times today on the need to increase supply of resale HDB flats. Be prepared for some policy changes to HDB resale flat soon.
My take is that it may make sense to sell your HDB flats now at current high price before more owners are "forced" to sell soon.
Just my thoughts!
The under lying problem we have at the moment is not foreigner nor pr it is the unrealistic disparity between interest rate and inflation.
If we don't close the gap money will continue to flow into asset because the situation reward borrower and penalize saver.
Allthepies
18-11-12, 22:27
The government don't want to cool the resale market for very obvious reasons. The HDB owners also don't want to cool the resale markets, again for very obvious reasons. Now left the newbies, which the government has built tons and tons of BTO for them. These newbies will become HDB owners too, they obviously also don't want to cool the HDB resale market. So if everybody for most of the time don't want the resale market to cool, so there is really no problem at all. Case close.
Go back to work more productively to earn more money :D :D
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 22:34
The government don't want to cool the resale market for very obvious reasons. The HDB owners also don't want to cool the resale markets, again for very obvious reasons. Now left the newbies, which the government has built tons and tons of BTO for them. These newbies will become HDB owners too, they obviously also don't want to cool the HDB resale market. So if everybody for most of the time don't want the resale market to cool, so there is really no problem at all. Case close.
Go back to work more productively to earn more money :D :DThis also sounds like a person who talks with brain.
The government don't want to cool the resale market for very obvious reasons. The HDB owners also don't want to cool the resale markets, again for very obvious reasons. Now left the newbies, which the government has built tons and tons of BTO for them. These newbies will become HDB owners too, they obviously also don't want to cool the HDB resale market. So if everybody for most of the time don't want the resale market to cool, so there is really no problem at all. Case close.
Go back to work more productively to earn more money :D :D
Good advice! You are a very pragmatic person.
The article on tremeritus at least sounds like someone who talks with brain.
Sir,
The writer of the article on tremitus is actually agreeing with what Ms Chua is saying, in fact he is applauding her courage to speak up about it. This is some of what he wrote :
finally one person from the establishment dares to step forward and say the truth about the real reason behind the sky-rocketing HDB flat prices – former ISD officer and now Senior Writer of the Straits Times Chua Mui Hoong.
She cannot be more right: though PRs are partly responsible for the spike in prices, they should not bear blame because they need a roofs over their heads as well.
You see, you cannot agree with writer of the tremeritus article (whom you say talks with brains) but disagree with Ms Chua at the same time. The are basically singing the same tune....
Is it possible that you may not have actually read either article closely enough?
Perhaps it may be a little unfair for you to make such a criticism of Ms Chua. (btw this does not mean I fully support or agree with what she writes)
would like to read the tremeritus article again?
http://www.tremeritus.com/2010/02/11/chua-mui-hoong-rising-resale-flat-prices-reflect-genuine-pent-up-demand-spurred-by-high-levels-of-immigration/
I think you misunderstand my point about getting "C"s. You have it opposite.
Precisely its because I mind, and so do the majority of Singaporeans. That is why Singapore is an education hothouse. The majority goes for tuition because we want our children be better than the next person. We are basically a very "kiasu" country.
While we say we want the government to scrap PSLE, we still desire for our kids to go RI or HwaChong.... so what gives?
Academic success may not translate to life success, but it is very obvious that the probabilty of increased opportunities is proportional to the level of education one has. As parents we know it through our life experiences, why else would we put our kids through those hours of tuition?
So I can see that you do not mind you child getting 'C', good for you, but I am sure you are not the majority. By the way I children in both side of the spectrum. So you don't come and tell me about 'A' or 'D', I know better than you and I managed them differently.
It doesn't matter whether you are retired or not because all income should be reckoned for taxation. However it does not mean that one who leases out his property would automatically pay tax.
It all depends on the quantum of rental that you receive after deductions accounted for tax. It is still income, but it may be so low that it may not attract a tax. And this can be the case if one is truly retired with no salary and hence does not bulk up the taxable income.
Btw, what in your mind is "retirement"? Is it a person with no employment?
Is a 26 year old person with no employment but owns and collects rent from fully paid condos, shophouses and warehouses considered retired?
Should this person pay tax for all the rental he is collecting?
What if he is 46 years old? or 66years old or even 86 years old?
At what point do you consider this person retired and not have pay tax for the hundreds of thousands he is collecting as rent?
Don't just extract some points to bombard, what about the retired, should their rental be taxed too when they are relying it to keep themselves going?
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 23:43
It doesn't matter whether you are retired or not because all income should be reckoned for taxation. However it does not mean that one who leases out his property would automatically pay tax.
It all depends on the quantum of rental that you receive after deductions accounted for tax. It is still income, but it may be so low that it may not attract a tax. And this can be the case if one is truly retired with no salary and hence does not bulk up the taxable income.
Btw, what in your mind is "retirement"? Is it a person with no employment?
Is a 26 year old person with no employment but owns and collects rent from fully paid condos, shophouses and warehouses considered retired?
Should this person pay tax for all the rental he is collecting?
What if he is 46 years old? or 66years old or even 86 years old?
At what point do you consider this person retired and not have pay tax for the hundreds of thousands he is collecting as rent?
65 yo, official retire age of course.
It's the taxation part which I disagree. Taxation does not equal increase in number of resale flat.
It seems all problems finally and only has 1 solution, TAX!!!
65 yo, official retire age of course.
So, after 65years old no need to pay tax?
CondoInterested
18-11-12, 23:52
At least not for every dollar for rent, the poor old folk only gets $0.30.
65 yo, official retire age of course.
It's the taxation part which I disagree. Taxation does not equal increase in number of resale flat.
It seems all problems finally and only has 1 solution, TAX!!!
Let's suppose this, using your own example of renting out your 1 single room in a HDB.
If you are retired (no salary) and rent out a room in your only HDB flat and this is declared as income. Under the current tax rate, if you rent your one room for $20,000/year and that is accounted as your income for the year, your tax bill is $0.
If you can rent your one room in your HDB for $30,000/year, your tax is $200.
Is this very unreasonable?
I urge you to read both articles carefully again, this tax is not targetted at the "poor old folks".
It is targetting the private property owners who already own one or more private property but is holding on to his HDB because of its good rental yield. HDB is a rental cash cow and it is unlikely that these group of people will relinquish their HDB flats.
This in turn reduces the amount of resale HDB available (38%) for sale, possibly causing a supply crunch which Ms Chua argues as a factor for driving up HDB prices and spreading into the general market.
While principally I agree with her analysis, I for my own selfish reasons do not want to see it go that way because I am vested. But I have to call a spade a spade, what she says does hold some truth and may possibly bring property prices to more reasonable levels.
At least not for every dollar for rent, the poor old folk only gets $0.30.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-07t3esyYdvo/UKkrJwQeOXI/AAAAAAAAJl4/4Y_b77SEl-4/s1600/network.asiaone.com-gallery-2012-BT_Property_IA120221-pdf-page22.pdf.png
http://network.asiaone.com/gallery/2012/BT_Property_IA120221/pdf/page22.pdf
How long it take to produce one NSmen.
First you need to find a female who is willing to open her pair of leg.
Then you start to look for a place to stay.
In 1986 it take 7 years to get your key.
I was fortunate, it take me 9 months for my first selection exercise.
I took my 4 room on my second selection exercise which is the last selection exercise for SAF in 1988.
With no money but a contract to work for the SAF for 12 years I plan for my NSmen. Finally got enough money and produce one NSmen in 1994 after 6 years. Total it take me 18+6+4=28 years.
Do you think resale of HDB can be increased by just a policy change.
HDB policies r extremely sensitive topics now. 80% voters will b hit by any change. LKY is still ard. I doubt anyone is brave enuff to tweak e policies.
I urge you to read both articles carefully again, this tax is not targetted at the "poor old folks".
It is targetting the private property owners who already own one or more private property but is holding on to his HDB because of its good rental yield. HDB is a rental cash cow and it is unlikely that these group of people will relinquish their HDB flats.
This in turn reduces the amount of resale HDB available (38%) for sale, possibly causing a supply crunch which Ms Chua argues as a factor for driving up HDB prices and spreading into the general market.
While principally I agree with her analysis, I for my own selfish reasons do not want to see it go that way because I am vested. But I have to call a spade a spade, what she says does hold some truth and may possibly bring property prices to more reasonable levels.
You appears to be the very few here who has read and understood the article in its entirety. Most of the critics here appear to have missed her points. They are arging about different things or things that will not affect them at all.
The under lying problem we have at the moment is not foreigner nor pr it is the unrealistic disparity between interest rate and inflation.
If we don't close the gap money will continue to flow into asset because the situation reward borrower and penalize saver.
Ms Chua was not talking about foreigner or PR if you had read her article in its entirety and carefully. She was advocating exactly what was your concern.
HDB policies r extremely sensitive topics now. 80% voters will b hit by any change. LKY is still ard. I doubt anyone is brave enuff to tweak e policies.
You are right! MBT did and lost his job.......But the problem lies here....Sad!
After all that is said and done, please do your own planning. I stress again, the govt don't owe u anything. U pay taxes, they give u infrastructure, etc....
Don't expect any govt, mgmt, heads to please 100% of the people. So we have to stop being idealistic....
Read the situation and plan well... Then u can take care of yourself and the family. Try not to rely on the govt to solve the issue... It only means u give opportunities to people who solve the problems on their own....
When we did math, what did we learn - to solve the problem... So read the market/economy, understand it and take advantage of the situation... Just like a math problem.... Many here in this forum have actually analysed the situation and shared their findings... Read it...
If u read the editor's article and agree w her and demonstrate emotional aggressive act to right this wrong, u really belong to the 'political' arena... I salute u. We need more people like this...
As for me, I will pay my taxes, assist fellow singaporeans in whatever way I can, read the situation and act on it.
Don't get to emo my friends. If u really want to get emo, please, the political forums should be the one to go to... For goodness sake, this is a property forum...
I know I will get hamtam after this, but what the hack.... If I can help someone, i already happy...:D
Cheers...:cheers6:
Don't get to emo my friends. If u really want to get emo, please, the political forums should be the one to go to... For goodness sake, this is a property forum...
I know I will get hamtam after this, but what the hack.... If I can help someone, i already happy...:D
Cheers...:cheers6:
I have this to add that property forum is as much a "social forum" and social, economic and politic are so closely inter-related. Take away one and the equation cannot be balance.
Politically, people will hantam you. However, socially, people will just correct you and economically, you have missed the point.
You are still highly respected in this forum in many ways.
Bro, thanks for the vote of confidence. I come in to really share w fellow Singaporeans financial freedom. I see so many sad cases and if my contribution helps, nice... I do see a big rich poor divide and more coming. If such forums were around in the past, I would have learnt a lot. So now doing NS. Respect, I get a lot in real life. Here, no need respect. Everyone equal and share.
Cheers:cheers6:
Agree with most of your points, but not fair to say PR don't contribute to nation building.
They pay taxes like you and me.
Their sons serve NS like yours and mine.
In addition, they get fall lower down the list when it comes to housing and schooling etc... So cannot complain already hor.
Asking them to give up home country citizenship to take up Singapore citizenship is rather harsh and unfair. There couldn't more than meets the eye.. Eg. Elderly parents, etc. not so simple.
Disclaimer: I am not a PR.
while i have nothing to against PRs, i must bring up the point that they are here to make money and then go home. Therefore it is only right that they pay taxes, etc. They do contribute to nation building, but they take away much more too. With all due respect, let's just look at a typical malaysian (same goes for any other PRC, indian, etc):
work here for 20 years, while their kids go through quality sgp education (okay lah, at least better quality than back home, again with all due respect). buy HDB, make capital gains over the 20 years. contribute CPF, when return home, take out everything. in the meantime, also buy m'sian (or other) ppty near their hometown for future retirement and also investment.
by the end of 20 years, they will run-road, go home retirement with a nest egg of easily SGD1mil (RM$ 2.5mil). very comfortable retirement.
they have it much much much better off than any singaporean who is going to be stuck here for life. their "suffer" timeline is only 20-30 years. for us sinkies, we are here for 70 years.
Bro, thanks for the vote of confidence. I come in to really share w fellow Singaporeans financial freedom. I see so many sad cases and if my contribution helps, nice... I do see a big rich poor divide and more coming. If such forums were around in the past, I would have learnt a lot. So now doing NS. Respect, I get a lot in real life. Here, no need respect. Everyone equal and share.
Cheers:cheers6:
What a gentleman (君子)!
I think we should not under estimate Ms Chua and her thinking. She is no ordinary journalist. She knows the workings of the government just like Mr Han Fook Kwang who wrote in the same paper urging the government to let resale flats for citizens only just 2 weeks ago.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15547
Their writings about resale HDB flats within a short period of 2 weeks cannot be ignored.
I believe more CM is coming soon to curb prices of resale HDB flats. It could be next week when HDB announces its last sale of BTO flats for the year. Keep your ears wide open.
agree. most of these senior journalists are mouth pieces of the govt. some move on to MP roles. there is a reason for their writings.
While it is true that there are many indirect taxes, Singapore is still one of the least taxed country in the world. Both in personal and coporate taxes. Many people do not even pay income tax but pay consumption tax in the form of GST.
The kind of taxes we pay pales in comparison to many countries.
my wife and myself have not paid tax for a few years... :o
agree. most of these senior journalists are mouth pieces of the govt. some move on to MP roles. there is a reason for their writings.
Yup, she could be asked to write to hint about something coming up soon :P
Yup, she could be asked to write to hint about something coming up soon :P
means likely in future is "stay private prop, rent out hdb not worth it, better to sell" ?
i haven't even have the chance to try this cherry, it is going to be gone liao.... so sian :eek:
By Romesh Navaratnarajah (https://plus.google.com/100211889324198007685/about?hl=en):
There are clear signs that the HDB resale market is stabilising but there is much more that can be done, according to National Development Minister Khaw Boon Wan (pictured) in a Business Times report.
Responding to a query in Parliament from MP Lee Bee Wah of Nee Soon GRC who asked whether soaring HDB resale prices is a cause for concern, Mr Khaw highlighted that the latest Resale Price Index (RPI) growth eased to just 3.9 percent in the first nine months of 2012, compared to 14.1 and 10.7 percent in 2010 and 2011 respectively.
Despite the positive signs, he acknowledged that much more can be done.
“We have implemented a number of measures but they will take some time to work their way through the market. For example, the huge supply of new housing units will be available only over the next two to three years.”
As per a query by MP Lim Biow Chuan (Mountbatten), Mr Khaw also pointed out the success rate of HDB loans over the last three years.
Only two percent or 3,500 of the 178,000 applications were turned down between January 2010 and September 2012, mainly because these applicants had taken out two or more HDB loans previously, Mr Khaw said.
“The rejection rate is rather low, but in any case we do exercise discretion and provide sympathy where we can.”
He added that the success rate for appeals on HDB loans was “quite good” at 36 percent.
Is Mr Khaw hinting something???
Agree with most of your points, but not fair to say PR don't contribute to nation building.
They pay taxes like you and me.
Their sons serve NS like yours and mine.
In addition, they get fall lower down the list when it comes to housing and schooling etc... So cannot complain already hor.
Asking them to give up home country citizenship to take up Singapore citizenship is rather harsh and unfair. There couldn't more than meets the eye.. Eg. Elderly parents, etc. not so simple.
Disclaimer: I am not a PR.
Without PR buy the resale who are the upgraders going to sell to? Government buy back scheme?
When u have limited choice, that is what we say no choice. It is also unfair to our citizen that they enjoy the benefit here and got to keep their citizenship elsewhere...why, because they want to return one day to where they come. So if u let them rip the benefit and go, that is fair?? :confused:
Anyway, just my opinion. When it comes to such, they have their right to choose and we also have our rite to keep the benefit for citizen.
Either they convert and stay or then just thank you and they go...which is what they want also, if here no good no benefit, they will come and help u build your nation? Think....there is already mutual benefit but when it goes deeper, then sorry, this is the limit.
:2cents:
No Offence...:cheers1:
May I know what is the benefits we are taking about?
making capital gain from resale? Thats is u are assuming all resale are sold to Citizen again...
what abt the 1st time Citizen who can sell the Government given HDB to PR and made profit from it? Is that not a gain too for the citizen?
I think there must ve give n take. We want to sell our HDB at good price. Done be narrow minded if the same person u sold to also make some profit sell to the next person.
Coz another 1st timer also benefited as the price are lifted.
I am also not a PR. but a True blue Sgporean.
I think Ms Chua idea is to discourage private property owners to keep their HDB flats for rental yield through taxation. It shouldn't affect you unless you choose to rent out your HDB flat when your new PC is ready.
I think that is a good way to curb pricing increase in low interest rate environment.
Curb rental of HDB if the owner have a PC and is staying in the PC.
but such models are very blunt.. the intention for HDB is also to instill some ownership to the ciziten at the same time gain and grow with the economy.
They are may implication to this.
1. folks who are using this for retirement fundings...
2. lower cost rental units in the market too to keep PC rental in check.
So I dont think it would be a good tool just to band renting of HDB as a single stand a lone policy..
After all that is said and done, please do your own planning. I stress again, the govt don't owe u anything. U pay taxes, they give u infrastructure, etc....
Don't expect any govt, mgmt, heads to please 100% of the people. So we have to stop being idealistic....
Read the situation and plan well... Then u can take care of yourself and the family. Try not to rely on the govt to solve the issue... It only means u give opportunities to people who solve the problems on their own....
When we did math, what did we learn - to solve the problem... So read the market/economy, understand it and take advantage of the situation... Just like a math problem.... Many here in this forum have actually analysed the situation and shared their findings... Read it...
If u read the editor's article and agree w her and demonstrate emotional aggressive act to right this wrong, u really belong to the 'political' arena... I salute u. We need more people like this...
As for me, I will pay my taxes, assist fellow singaporeans in whatever way I can, read the situation and act on it.
Don't get to emo my friends. If u really want to get emo, please, the political forums should be the one to go to... For goodness sake, this is a property forum...
I know I will get hamtam after this, but what the hack.... If I can help someone, i already happy...:D
Cheers...:cheers6:
precisely, we should plan our own and don't blame this and that if things goes wrong.
even i pay little income tax (have not paid for a few years because of parenthood and etc), my property tax is siong and also DC and etc..
i agreee with you and howgozit. for me, i take it as there is no perfect country...
While it is true that there are many indirect taxes, Singapore is still one of the least taxed country in the world. Both in personal and coporate taxes. Many people do not even pay income tax but pay consumption tax in the form of GST.
The kind of taxes we pay pales in comparison to many countries.
Just came back from Aus... Tax there is high. but the benifits there are high too. all these are made possible becoz they are very dependent on their commodity export. Which they have a lot of ! thus they can do min wage! but for SGP dont think this will work all we have is service we sells to the region.
Maybe today I took the wrong medicine :D
Don't just extract some points to bombard, what about the retired, should their rental be taxed too when they are relying it to keep themselves going?
Anyway, all this are already my past, I need not take children to tuition anymore, they have outgrown it.
I am just saying that in theory, it is not possible for parents with 2 kids to bring them to tuition at different place at the same time and also to take care of their elderly parents at the same time, that is why you need an extra pair of hands. So now you ever wonder why Singaporean (the young ones) always say, "why have kids?" or "why marry in the first place?", these are some quite common saying you can hear on the street from these youngster.
So I can see that you do not mind you child getting 'C', good for you, but I am sure you are not the majority. By the way I children in both side of the spectrum. So you don't come and tell me about 'A' or 'D', I know better than you and I managed them differently.
I do know other countries have higher taxes, my secondary school ang mo teacher told me before when I am very young. But even if our tax is low, does it justify by raising tax to solve a problem which is not effectively solved? Just admit it that COE is a failed system which does not work at all. By the way, I do not drive and I do not own a car not because I cannot effort, just that I do need one.
Whether someone is or isn't born loser mentality is not just by what you say. I think I have managed my own situation well enough. And I am just saying things in general.
Without COE u will be coming home to a Bangkok/Jakatar JAM. You must also cosider singaporean have been getting richer these days too.
The government don't want to cool the resale market for very obvious reasons. The HDB owners also don't want to cool the resale markets, again for very obvious reasons. Now left the newbies, which the government has built tons and tons of BTO for them. These newbies will become HDB owners too, they obviously also don't want to cool the HDB resale market. So if everybody for most of the time don't want the resale market to cool, so there is really no problem at all. Case close.
Go back to work more productively to earn more money :D :D
True. So just make sure sufficient supply to meet newbies needs. But newbies need to understand they cant buy it at their parents price anymore. Hopefully same model will benefit the newbies when they retire.
Let's get real here...quote from HDB website
Public housing in Singapore is uniquely different. Home to about 82% of Singaporeans, with about 90% of them owning their HDB flat, it is one of Singapore’s national pride
With about 90% of the voting populace owning HDB flat, do you really think that they will do anything that will negatively impact the wealth of 90% of the voting population regardless of what one or two journalists write?
Let's get real here...quote from HDB website
With about 90% of the voting populace owning HDB flat, do you really think that they will do anything that will negatively impact the wealth of 90% of the voting population just to please the 10 to 20% minority?
Ms Chua's writing seem to suggest that if you already owned a private property, please sell your HDB flat because there are a lot more people needing such affordable flats. By keeping the flats for rental, the supply will be affected and hence more people could not afford to buy. It will also affect the prices of new BTO flats.
Nobody get hurt accept private property owners who still hang on to their HDB flats for yield. Then again, there is no loss of home ownership if they sell their HDB flats since they are already owners of private flats.
Wealth is only created if one sells and someone else buys and the process continue. If one keep it forever, there is no wealth creation; only your nett worth increases on paper.
The problem is not that PRs make money from selling their HDBs as this is subject to market conditions taking into consideration that they are only eligible to purchase the already exhorbitantly priced resale HDB flats.
Many Singaporeans feel indignant if PRs make money, but I see it as a fair deal. Btw, it is not true that every PR makes money from selling their HDB. It is only true in recent times as with the prevailing market conditions. Meaning they would have made money too if they had bought private properties instead.
PRs buy these expensive resale HDB at a risk too. The idea that property prices will indefinitely escalate is something that needs a serious rethink.
The real problem is if they do not sell but hold on to it for rental income. Because if they sell their HDB, at least there is a regeneration of avaible resale HDB. If they keep it they will be utilising government housing for income, that to me is the real problem. However, the current policy attempts to address this by not allowing non-resident PRs to sell their HDB.
What is not addressed are the well-to-do Singaporeans that continue to milk the HDB cash cow. These units are are not regenerated and contribute to the notion of undersupply.
The current state of affairs can be attributed to the liberalisation of HDB rules in 2003. At that time HDB and the overall property market was in a glut and prices were severly depressed from the effects of the 1997 Asian finacial crisis.
while i have nothing to against PRs, i must bring up the point that they are here to make money and then go home. Therefore it is only right that they pay taxes, etc. They do contribute to nation building, but they take away much more too. With all due respect, let's just look at a typical malaysian (same goes for any other PRC, indian, etc):
work here for 20 years, while their kids go through quality sgp education (okay lah, at least better quality than back home, again with all due respect). buy HDB, make capital gains over the 20 years. contribute CPF, when return home, take out everything. in the meantime, also buy m'sian (or other) ppty near their hometown for future retirement and also investment.
by the end of 20 years, they will run-road, go home retirement with a nest egg of easily SGD1mil (RM$ 2.5mil). very comfortable retirement.
they have it much much much better off than any singaporean who is going to be stuck here for life. their "suffer" timeline is only 20-30 years. for us sinkies, we are here for 70 years.
Allthepies
19-11-12, 11:59
One good way to curb rising resale HDB prices is that HDB can only be resold at the price you bought. Ha Ha, but then again who really want HDB price to stagnant?
accodring to previous MND minister, HDB is indeed "cash cow" - nothing wrong what
last heard, money in cpf or money in hdb ... both can generate yields
What is not addressed are the well-to-do Singaporeans that continue to milk the HDB cash cow. These units are are not regenerated and contribute to the notion of undersupply.
you are talking about the 4% of the population?? This 4% going to make way for resale HDB market to fall? So foreigner come to Sg to work stay where? Hotel? PC? So what do you think is curbing the sky rising of PC rental? Think again as all are interlink.
I agree to have affordable HDB for all citizens, i mean all citizens...:D maybe should start from BTO?? If they can't even start from BTO with reasonable pricing, then what else can we say?
And if they say BTO are priced reasonable now and all can afford, what else is needed? To push down the resale price again affecting the 90% of the population? Stop rental of HDB and then create another problem of housing foreign talents as well as who is curbing the PC rental market?
as i have said before, there are ppl who choose to sell the hdb when they upgrade and there are some who would rather keep it for rental and then hopefully as a place for retirement. Both are benefiting but you cant say the other party is wrong. What they pointed out is this is only 4% who has PC as well as HDB but they have longer sight and might be keeping this for retirement, nothing wrong :p
just my opinion, i dont have 3rd eye and my vision might not be 360% but this is just what i see and hope to learn more into this topic.:o :2cents:
not against PR or anyone...no offence...:)
Ms Chua's writing seem to suggest that if you already owned a private property, please sell your HDB flat because there are a lot more people needing such affordable flats. By keeping the flats for rental, the supply will be affected and hence more people could not afford to buy. It will also affect the prices of new BTO flats.
Nobody get hurt accept private property owners who still hang on to their HDB flats for yield. Then again, there is no loss of home ownership if they sell their HDB flats since they are already owners of private flats.
Wealth is only created if one sells and someone else buys and the process continue. If one keep it forever, there is no wealth creation; only your nett worth increases on paper.
accodring to previous MND minister, HDB is indeed "cash cow" - nothing wrong what
last heard, money in cpf or money in hdb ... both can generate yields
being a vested party, i must say that money in cpf yields only at fix rate. it does not guard against inflation. money in hdb (or pte ppty) is a natural hedge against inflation.
the key here is whether or not govt decides on clamp down on pple who rent out their HDB and stay in pte.
end of the day, it depends on what is important to the present day govt at the current moment. hdb resale price/hdb resale supply/wealth creation by the middle class/etc. the policy will then be tinkered to reflect which is more impt to the govt now. the middle class now is the one that is most squeezed. they are now depending on this formula to support their retirement. they too are the well-read and well-informed, and do not support parties blindly. if govt clamps down on this group, they will definitely lose the votes from this camp.
if indeed only 4% of all hdb owners own pte ppty, the max you can release is 4% of supply into the mkt. in reality, what may happen is only 2%. the rest may just find some other way to justify holding on to their hdb. yet, some may already be living in HDB and renting out their pte. maybe net 1% supply release back. will govt implement a policy that will kill their votes, yet only release 1% of supply back into mkt (which they can anytime build BTO to cover)? or will this move gain more votes from those who want to enter resale mkt? how much will resale mkt prices actually move as a result of this move?
chia mui hoong has a valid point. as usual, pple who suggest policy changes are always those who are not vested. being on the receiving end, we can only wait for things to happen. i will not bet on either side.
you are talking about the 4% of the population?? This 4% going to make way for resale HDB market to fall? So foreigner come to Sg to work stay where? Hotel? PC? So what do you think is curbing the sky rising of PC rental? Think again as all are interlink.
I agree to have affordable HDB for all citizens, i mean all citizens...:D maybe should start from BTO?? If they can't even start from BTO with reasonable pricing, then what else can we say?
And if they say BTO are priced reasonable now and all can afford, what else is needed? To push down the resale price again affecting the 90% of the population? Stop rental of HDB and then create another problem of housing foreign talents as well as who is curbing the PC rental market?
just my opinion, i dont have 3rd eye and my vision might not be 360% but this is just what i see and hope to learn more into this topic.:o :2cents:
not against PR or anyone...no offence...:)
Maybe you could learn or understand more by reading her writing again and in its entirety. There are a lot of stuff there which should answer most of your doubts mentioned here.
I must admit that it takes a bit of patience to digest her writing.
Ms Chua's writing seem to suggest that if you already owned a private property, please sell your HDB flat because there are a lot more people needing such affordable flats. By keeping the flats for rental, the supply will be affected and hence more people could not afford to buy. It will also affect the prices of new BTO flats.
Nobody get hurt accept private property owners who still hang on to their HDB flats for yield. Then again, there is no loss of home ownership if they sell their HDB flats since they are already owners of private flats.
Wealth is only created if one sells and someone else buys and the process continue. If one keep it forever, there is no wealth creation; only your nett worth increases on paper.
Forcing HDB owners to sell their flats within a specific timeframe has an impact on their networth/wealth position as they have to accept whatever price the buyers dictate when the deadline looms. Will you still be a happy voter if you were in such a position?
you can enlighten me here as I have read but maybe I miss out totally...my questions are not being addressed directly and of course, I'm not blaming her or things like that, what i meant was there are more than just what they can do as in A B C...:p
maybe keeping PR in the resale HDB market equation is still needed at this point in time...:o
Maybe you could learn or understand more by reading her writing again and in its entirety. There are a lot of stuff there which should answer most of your doubts mentioned here.
I must admit that it takes a bit of patience to digest her writing.
you can enlighten me here as I have read but maybe I miss out totally...my questions are not being addressed directly and of course, I'm not blaming her or things like that, what i meant was there are more than just what they can do as in A B C...:p
to summarise, she is saying those who are staying in pte and renting out their hdb should just sell.
all those discussions on PRs, etc, is irrelevant
Forcing HDB owners to sell their flats within a specific timeframe has an impact on their networth/wealth position as they have to accept whatever price the buyers dictate when the deadline looms. Will you still be a happy voter if you were in such a position?
people today are very miopic and selfish... its all abt I win u loose mentality. when they sell their HDB at a gain they hope to buy it back at a cheaper price. and then perhaps sell it at a gain again.
Seeing others making $ out of it after they have they feel missed out.... thus unhappy.
frankly they will never be happy either way.
Frankly this round blame PR. If we take the PR equation out. Then will be blame those HDB owners with multiple PC.
Forcing HDB owners to sell their flats within a specific timeframe has an impact on their networth/wealth position as they have to accept whatever price the buyers dictate when the deadline looms. Will you still be a happy voter if you were in such a position?
As an investor, one must take this as investment risk. We should not be expecting the government to continuously act to protect our investments. If one believes that his/her investment is better off to be unlocked, why wait for market forces to force one to act. Government will only acts if market is not behaving normally which appear to be the case now.
I learn that the ruling party has identified high property price was one of the key issue that saw a swing of votes in the last GE. The votes speak for itself if voters are happy with high property prices.
its not force pvt ppty owners to sell off their hdb. but gentle nudging them via disincentives.
note that she is already talking about what is the magic number to levy. ... 30? 40? 50%?
these 4% should really be concerned. becoz it shows at what stage is this levy being considered for tabling and implementation. almost like saying its done deal. now only fine tuning the %.
notice this policy making style is similar to kbw bto for singles. in a blog post he just say yes we will build more bto for singles (the to do or not to do part already settled!) now is how many units more... whats the magic number.
just my humble attempt at interpreting how office makers minds thought processes are like.
.
notice this policy making style is similar to kbw bto for singles. in a blog post he just say yes we will build more bto for singles (the to do or not to do part already settled!) now is how many units more... whats the magic number.
good observation
in 2010, we have a total of 1.3mil non-resident population. if we dont allow HDB to be rented out, where are we going to house this people? And what number are we talking about here for HDB renting? 35K units??
so I think so far the rental market is working fine in the equation. Dont need to create another problem la, but of course it has to eat into somewhere but dont think this 35K unit is creating problem for the 1mil units HDB...just my opinion.:)
to summarise, she is saying those who are staying in pte and renting out their hdb should just sell.
all those discussions on PRs, etc, is irrelevant
in 2010, we have a total of 1.3mil non-resident population. if we dont allow HDB to be rented out, where are we going to house this people? And what number are we talking about here for HDB renting? 35K units??
so I think so far the rental market is working fine in the equation. Dont need to create another problem la, but of course it has to eat into somewhere but dont think this 35K unit is creating problem for the 1mil units HDB...just my opinion.:)
maybe she own many private PC. hoping to create a crunch in the private PC rental. so can bank on the short fall of S-Pass or E-Passess.
its not force pvt ppty owners to sell off their hdb. but gentle nudging them via disincentives.
note that she is already talking about what is the magic number to levy. ... 30? 40? 50%?
these 4% should really be concerned. becoz it shows at what stage is this levy being considered for tabling and implementation. almost like saying its done deal. now only fine tuning the %.
notice this policy making style is similar to kbw bto for singles. in a blog post he just say yes we will build more bto for singles (the to do or not to do part already settled!) now is how many units more... whats the magic number.
just my humble attempt at interpreting how office makers minds thought processes are like.
Then owners will start under declaring the rent of their HDB flats iflevy is based on % of rent. Should have a fixed amount based on 3 rm , 4rm etc and by estate.
hahaha maybe.....
maybe she own many private PC. hoping to create a crunch in the private PC rental. so can bank on the short fall of S-Pass or E-Passess.
Let's get real here...quote from HDB website
With about 90% of the voting populace owning HDB flat, do you really think that they will do anything that will negatively impact the wealth of 90% of the voting population regardless of what one or two journalists write?
Assuming 90% own Hdb, have 2-4 kids.. Would they see their only 1 Hdb values shoot through the roof at their kids expense..
Having say that, what the point to have the value shoot up when their kids forever bunk in together,especially prices are beyond their reach
agree. paper value will forever b on paper until encashed.
as for under-declare, do note that penalty is many times over. unless u rent out without stamping. then if kena caught whole flat confiscated.
Maybe you could learn or understand more by reading her writing again and in its entirety. There are a lot of stuff there which should answer most of your doubts mentioned here.
I must admit that it takes a bit of patience to digest her writing.
There seems to be a conclusion that she is a mouthpiece of the govt. All the CMs were announced without she giving such indications or helping the govt to prepare the ground. So why now? She is one of the better journalists left in ST but does not mean what she says will definitely be implemented.
agree. paper value will forever b on paper until encashed.
as for under-declare, do note that penalty is many times over. unless u rent out without stamping. then if kena caught whole flat confiscated.
Flat subject to confiscation only if rent without approval and not for not stamping.
dont worry about that la, last time your parent buy a 4rm for 20K today can sell for 400K and who knows, they also thinking how their kids can buy in future during then. and now u thinking how your kids can buy and so on...never ending. this is SUPER inflation in action...:D
as long as garmen control the BTO pricing, there you go. if they cannot control the BTO pricing and then blame the high BTO price becasue of high resale price, then something is wrong. And if BTO continue to be affordable at say 4rm for 300K, will you want to buy resale at 700K?? provided you can afford and you like to design or location la, no one can blame or stop you for doing that. but of course you cannot also blame why resale price so high because it is supply and demand in action... :o :2cents:
Assuming 90% own Hdb, have 2-4 kids.. Would they see their only 1 Hdb values shoot through the roof at their kids expense..
Having say that, what the point to have the value shoot up when their kids forever bunk in together,especially prices are beyond their reach
give him face:
http://www.pmo.gov.sg/content/pmosite/mediacentre/inthenews/ministermentor/2010/November/don_t_sell_your_hdbflatsaysmmlee.html
There seems to be a conclusion that she is a mouthpiece of the govt. All the CMs were announced without she giving such indications or helping the govt to prepare the ground. So why now? She is one of the better journalists left in ST but does not mean what she says will definitely be implemented.
We are discussing about the subject of her writing. I have suggested that we should take her writing more seriously. Other contributors think that it is more a less a done deal. I think we are all having a good guess and some healthy discussions if it happens.
Is there any tale-tell sign in the market that this is an issue that needs to be addressed? Maybe her writing is one of the sign.
We are discussing about the subject of her writing. I have suggested that we should take her writing more seriously. Ohter contributors think that it is more a less a done deal. I think we are all having a good guess and some healthy discussion if it happen.
Is there tale-tell sign in the market that this is an issue that need to be addressed? Maybe her writing is one of the sign.
Yes when a senior journalist like her writes almost half a page article on this, we can be sure it is an issue that needs to be addressed but how it is addressed no one will know until one particular Friday when it is announced.
I for one think her writing is well calibrated and reasonable. Well at least the government did not shoot down the idea immediately, so they might actually be having a internal conversation about it.......
I for one think her writing is well calibrated and reasonable. Well at least the government did not shoot down the idea immediately, so they might actually be having a internal conversation about it.......
Their scholars would have already considered it earlier. No need for Ms Chua to tell them.
well maybe consider taxing more for HDB rental income. discourage rental. encourage people to stay in thier HDB.
also increase tax on 2nd 3rd 4th PC. discourage hoarding.
Their scholars would have already considered it earlier. No need for Ms Chua to tell them.
I think when Ms Chua speaks, it adds a lot more confidence in their efforts to convince their bosses and to take "risk".
Assuming 90% own Hdb, have 2-4 kids.. Would they see their only 1 Hdb values shoot through the roof at their kids expense..
Having say that, what the point to have the value shoot up when their kids forever bunk in together,especially prices are beyond their reach
The harsh reality is that for every single HDB owner who worry about rising HDB prices, there are tens or hundreds of that number that want their asset to rise even further. Don't get me wrong. I fully applaud all the noble and altrusitic sentiments here and that expressed by Ms Chua but what I am saying is that despite all the good intentions, political reality will prevail. Majority rules...you can't please everyone so you wil please the ones that matter. Every move/policy is thought through very carefully and its political impact weighed.
One of the primary roles of the government is the redistribution of wealth to its people fairly or at least perceived to be fair. A country's wealth including assets like real estates, healthcare and educational systems etc are the results of the collective hard work of the people and hence it is the responsibility of any government elected to redistribute the wealth to its people who voted them in. Deciding who get what is always difficult. Governments often submit themselves to social and political pressure when deciding who get what. It is democracy at works and so some part of the society will not be happy.
give him face:
http://www.pmo.gov.sg/content/pmosite/mediacentre/inthenews/ministermentor/2010/November/don_t_sell_your_hdbflatsaysmmlee.html
Well, at least nobody dares to do anything as long as he is still around. Still got time to ponder to sell or to rent.
Well, at least nobody dares to do anything as long as he is still around. Still got time to ponder to sell or to rent.
HDB flat owners should not sell their flats, as they are assets that will appreciate in value year after year, said Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew last night.
Addressing some 500 residents at a constituency event in Tanjong Pagar GRC, he said: 'I urge you not to listen to the estate agents and sell it and go and rent a flat because that's a stupid thing to do.
'You sell it, you may not get a rental flat for a long time. And you cannot gain from a rental flat... Please remember that.'
We need to read his statement in complete and not merely the famous phase in "Never sell your HDB flats".
You could cash in your HDB flats when retiring and downgrade to a smaller flat.
You could cash in on your HDB flat to upgrade to a bigger flat.
You should not cash in on your HDB flat and go for cheaper rental flat and that was what he meant.
It seems that the article is mostly addressing the concern that the next generation of young people (i.e. newly-weds, etc) will find resale HDB unaffordable. At the same time, she mentioned her friend said HDB rental market is weak, and she also said gahmen is already addressing the demand side of the solution by building more BTO flats. Wouldn't it appear that the solution for now would be for the young people to rent HDB until the new BTO flats are ready in a couple of years time? Then the measures already in place will kick in to correct the resale market price by then, so no need to rock the boat with tax on HDB rental income and such.
There seems to be a conclusion that she is a mouthpiece of the govt. All the CMs were announced without she giving such indications or helping the govt to prepare the ground. So why now? She is one of the better journalists left in ST but does not mean what she says will definitely be implemented.
yes, she is a snr journalist but not sure how you define better? There are better ones around who write based on their specialities (e.g. Goh Eng Yeow, Aaron Low on finance-related matters). She wrote about politics, etc. etc.... jack of all trades?? :beats-me-man:
in 2010, we have a total of 1.3mil non-resident population. if we dont allow HDB to be rented out, where are we going to house this people? And what number are we talking about here for HDB renting? 35K units??
so I think so far the rental market is working fine in the equation. Dont need to create another problem la, but of course it has to eat into somewhere but dont think this 35K unit is creating problem for the 1mil units HDB...just my opinion.:)
Yup, it appears (also what she suggested in her story) that the rule on no dual-ownership (i.e., for those who own pte first then wanna buy HDB) actually resulted in a mentality that those who own HDB & upgraded to pte become less inclined to sell HDB. Why create another solution just to have another set of issues??
All men are equal, but some are more equal than others.
yes, she is a snr journalist but not sure how you define better? There are better ones around who write based on their specialities (e.g. Goh Eng Yeow, Aaron Low on finance-related matters). She wrote about politics, etc. etc.... jack of all trades?? :beats-me-man:
She is specialising in politics which i believe for the local context will be the most critical and carefully screened post for ST.
The_Way_I_See_It
19-11-12, 18:36
It's a prelude to give tax man the excuse to collect tax. Only tax man can earn money, we poor citizen has no right to earn money. (只许州官放火,不许百姓点灯)
Out of the 2 evil, I would think SDP's suggestion is better because housing is for staying. Maybe I suggest a 3rd evil, make all rental in this country illegal, so no excuse for taxing the rental.
On taxation, million dollar questions are,
1. Does ERP successfully curbed road congestions?
2. Does COE successfully curbed road congestions?
The answer is obvious to above 2 questions. Why quota by Cert paying, why not just say the quota number and no money involved.
By taxing the rental, it will only cause rental to increase, when rental (part of cost of living) increase, many other items will increase and thus inflation.
On the article, Yes, these 2 from SPH are no ordinary mouth pieces , it is a prelude to something brewing ... folks ...
I still remember a few years (7,8) years back when they announce this HDB rental relaxation thing over a national day rally speech ..Every body so happy with a new possible source of income . And since then immigrant population bursting up by almost 45%. HDB's prices gone up by double folds BUT average wage of INCOME of average folks stagnating and depressing ... and local PMET get shocked of their life ..Younger Cheaper but not necessary better n faster replacement by FT .
As always stop gap measures and fire fighting ... myopic
Honestly where are we heading ?? as Singapore Inc or Singapore as a global city or Singapore as my beloved souverign nation where I spent 2 and half years NSF and 13 years reservist worth defending ??? :beats-me-man:
getting owners to sell their resale flats is a temporary relief, like panadol. what's lacking is a more impactful measure. announce "unlimited" building, like how central banks are doing "unlimited" support. announce 100k new build in each of the next 2 years. people will be stunned, some resale will flow into the market.
100k can probably house 500k population. 200k can maybe house 1mio. it shows that the supply balance is brought in to match the demand.
shock and awe.
if 100k per year still can't calm this market down. then well, kneel and pray...
Blame CM3, 30 Aug 2010, for the restriction on concurrent HDB ownership. That was the time when the squeeze on HDB supply started. Think about it. The fear of being forced to sell you PC if you buy a HDB.
So people who previously own a HDB before buying PC will now keep the HDB for rent. Imagine 1 family having 2 properties. What happens to supply?
Hahaha, very extreme but scare off ppl and they might try to be the first to sell before over supply situation...
Hey, are we trying to increase the resale market supply so that there is ample supply and then price will correct down, is this the objective? As I said before, and the garmen has said before, CM is working and building BTO also need time. If affordability is the key, then it can be controlled thru hdb pricing. Squeezing out this 4% will not help in my opinion...
Further CM will very likely lead to over supply... Have to take time to show the effect, cannot be impatience. Whatever done cannot be undone. So got to be careful.
and Over supply will lead to another big problem. Resale market will crash down, ppl can't sell at good price they cannot upgrade, and then no upgrader and lead to OCR market will also crash and ppl can't sell as there is over supply and then very soon, it also affect the whole chain of rental market and lastly, a lot who depend on passive income will be cut off from their steady stream of income and there u go, much bigger problem now. :scared-4:
Could also be extreme eg but, this is one of the possibility. :rolleyes:
Above is just my personal opinion. :2cents:
getting owners to sell their resale flats is a temporary relief, like panadol. what's lacking is a more impactful measure. announce "unlimited" building, like how central banks are doing "unlimited" support. announce 100k new build in each of the next 2 years. people will be stunned, some resale will flow into the market.
100k can probably house 500k population. 200k can maybe house 1mio. it shows that the supply balance is brought in to match the demand.
shock and awe.
if 100k per year still can't calm this market down. then well, kneel and pray...
i am not so sure 25k a year is enough. if the population size stops here, i think there's a good chance for supply to catch up. but if we are to reach 6.5mio in 5 years time. they need to bring out the bazookas.
Blame CM3, 30 Aug 2010, for the restriction on concurrent HDB ownership. That was the time when the squeeze on HDB supply started. Think about it. The fear of being forced to sell you PC if you buy a HDB.
So people who previously own a HDB before buying PC will now keep the HDB for rent. Imagine 1 family having 2 properties. What happens to supply?
Precisely! Who needs a mouthpiece who only knows how to suggest a 'solution' only to create another set of problems?? She prob thinks like one of those scholors? :D
One of the primary roles of the government is the redistribution of wealth to its people fairly or at least perceived to be fair. A country's wealth including assets like real estates, healthcare and educational systems etc are the results of the collective hard work of the people and hence it is the responsibility of any government elected to redistribute the wealth to its people who voted them in. Deciding who get what is always difficult. Governments often submit themselves to social and political pressure when deciding who get what. It is democracy at works and so some part of the society will not be happy.
We don't operate on a communist or social welfare model. Like I mentioned before, its time to get real and get back down to earth with political reality. By your statement in bold, you have already answered the question yourself. The government will cater to the majority's choice with the full realisation and acceptance of potential political fallout if the minority is not happy. I think you need to ask yourself whether Ms Chua's views or your own represent the majority or not.
The government had admitted that infrastructures were not ready for the increase in population which resulted in what we are today. It is not going to happen again even if the population goes up to 6.5m over the next 10 years. Government has learnt its lession and is not going to loose more votes in the coming elections.
They are preparing for the coming by developing new estates including Baddari and Tengah. More lands will be made available for housing in the coming years.
The ruling party is losing votes at current prices and it is a no brainer that the government will "bring down" the price low enough for it to rise again this time at "acceptable" level. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, if current price is not affordable and lossing votes, expect prices to be much lower gradually before rising to "acceptable" level over the next 10 years or so.
This is my analysis of the thinking of the government and of course I could be totally wrong.
The government had admitted that infrastructures were not ready for the increase in population which resulted in what we are today. It is not going to happen again even if the population goes up to 6.5m over the next 10 years. Government has learnt its lession and is not going to loose more votes in the coming elections.
They are preparing for the coming by developing new estates including Baddari and Tengah. More lands will be made available for housing in the coming years.
The ruling party is losing votes at current prices and it is a no brainer that the government will "bring down" the price low enough for it to rise again this time at "acceptable" level. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, if current price is not affordable and lossing votes, expect prices to be much lower before rising to "acceptable" level over the next 10 years or so.
This is my analysis of the thinking of the government and of course I could be totally wrong.
You miss my point here. What I am saying is whether Ms Chua's suggestions will help them in improving their perceived political standing especially as it deals with the public housing sector which is owned by the majority of the voting populace? Does Ms Chua's views echo the sentiment of the majority?
You miss my point here. What I am saying is whether Ms Chua's suggestions will help them in improving their perceived political standing especially as it deals with the public housing sector which is owned by the majority of the voting populace? Does Ms Chua's views echo the sentiment of the majority?
I was not attempting to response to your question for this analysis. I wrote it before your post.
We don't operate on a communist or social welfare model. Like I mentioned before, its time to get real and get back down to earth with political reality. By your statement in bold, you have already answered the question yourself. The government will cater to the majority's choice with the full realisation and acceptance of potential political fallout if the minority is not happy. I think you need to ask yourself whether Ms Chua's views or your own represent the majority or not.
Other forummers have already responded to your views and I concur with them.
Other forummers have already responded to your views and I concur with them.
The fine art of avoidance.....;)
The fine art of avoidance.....;)
I had already responded in no uncertain terms but you have your views and so let it be.
In life, one must not try to seek for a definite answer because there is none. I've learnt it the hard way too.
you are right...infrastructures not enough, not ready and bla bla bla. so the article here to cool the resale pty market means what? to have a lower resale price to make it affordable, or to increase the supply of resale market by getting the 4% more? how many do you think will sell their hdb and thats the end of it, full stop?? I think many will be selling and then buy again. I'm not representing all but you cant deny that this is a possibility. recycling doesn't really increase the supply...
what is it got to do with pressing the price down again here? to make it more affordable? then would it be better if the bowl of noodle is controlled at S$1.5? a pair of movie ticket at $5 each, and taxi at S$1 when u step into it? can we get back to this stage? I'm not sure.
i think we miss the point is that, the intention is clear that they are trying to moderate the appreciation. price increase is unavoidable due to easy money and inflation that we are facing.
if garmen bring down the price like you say, the 90% population will be happy? they will win more votes like that? you think so easy want to bring down now and then later bring it rite up?
in certain pt, i dont think the article make sense but seems like her words have some support here...:p
just my two cents...:2cents: :D
The government had admitted that infrastructures were not ready for the increase in population which resulted in what we are today. It is not going to happen again even if the population goes up to 6.5m over the next 10 years. Government has learnt its lession and is not going to loose more votes in the coming elections.
They are preparing for the coming by developing new estates including Baddari and Tengah. More lands will be made available for housing in the coming years.
The ruling party is losing votes at current prices and it is a no brainer that the government will "bring down" the price low enough for it to rise again this time at "acceptable" level. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, if current price is not affordable and lossing votes, expect prices to be much lower gradually before rising to "acceptable" level over the next 10 years or so.
This is my analysis of the thinking of the government and of course I could be totally wrong.
Assuming 90% own Hdb, have 2-4 kids.. Would they see their only 1 Hdb values shoot through the roof at their kids expense..
Having say that, what the point to have the value shoot up when their kids forever bunk in together,especially prices are beyond their reach
I think 'jwong71' response to the "90% of population happy with high price" makes most sense. The government already admitted that they lost a lot of votes during the last GE due to high property prices.
If anyone believe otherwise, maybe we should just let it be.....
is there a statistic that shows high HDB price = Losing more votes? how many % of the votes tilt to the other side because of just high HDB price? this is quite ridiculous, in my opinion...
The "Basic" instinct is still there i can see...:D
no offence...
I think 'jwong71' response to the "90% of population happy with high price" makes most sense. The government already admitted that they lost a lot of votes during the last GE due to high property prices.
If anyone believe otherwise, maybe we should just let it be.....
is there a statistic that shows high HDB price = Losing more votes? how many % of the votes tilt to the other side because of just high HDB price? this is quite ridiculous, in my opinion...
The "Basic" instinct is still there i can see...:D
no offence...
That you have to ask PAP. They came to that conclusion.
Maybe, ask yourself (no offence intended) do you prefer your flat to be worth high on paper and your children could not afford to buy?
If you have no children and no intention to upgrade, no benefit of having high price.
If you have intention to upgrade, low price also means you can upgrade at lower price. No real benefit of high price.
The only people who will be badly affected by low price If you are highly leveraged on investment properties and this people form the minority.
Hope this "analysis" help!
The government had admitted that infrastructures were not ready for the increase in population which resulted in what we are today. It is not going to happen again even if the population goes up to 6.5m over the next 10 years. Government has learnt its lession and is not going to loose more votes in the coming elections.
They are preparing for the coming by developing new estates including Baddari and Tengah. More lands will be made available for housing in the coming years.
The ruling party is losing votes at current prices and it is a no brainer that the government will "bring down" the price low enough for it to rise again this time at "acceptable" level. ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, if current price is not affordable and lossing votes, expect prices to be much lower gradually before rising to "acceptable" level over the next 10 years or so.
This is my analysis of the thinking of the government and of course I could be totally wrong.
the way i see it, govt is tackling the supply side of the curve by building BTOs everywhere and letting the mkt take care of the prices (resale flat). eventually 2015/6 all the supply will come on board, and coupled with PC supply, it should be comfortable.
the challenge now is whether there is a need for interim measure between now and then to artificially lower the price of resale.
for resale prices to moderate, the first to suffer is the COV. when COV reach levels like 10-20k, then the next thing to get a hit is the valuation itself. i think the right approach is to regulate the COV (which in itself is a big challenge), because most flat buyers do not look at valuation as a measure of affordability (that is taken care by CPF payments).
sorry bro, this analysis doesn't help. anyway enough being said. let others chip in :) I will rest and relax. :D
That you have to ask PAP. They came to that conclusion.
Maybe, ask yourself (no offence intended) do you prefer your flat to be worth high on paper and your children could not afford to buy?
If you have no children and no intention to upgrade, no benefit of having high price.
If you have intention to upgrade, low price also means you can upgrade at lower price. No real benefit of high price.
The only people who will be badly affected by low price If you are highly leverage on investment properties and this people form the minority.
Hope this "analysis" help!
the way i see it, govt is tackling the supply side of the curve by building BTOs everywhere and letting the mkt take care of the prices (resale flat). eventually 2015/6 all the supply will come on board, and coupled with PC supply, it should be comfortable.
the challenge now is whether there is a need for interim measure between now and then to artificially lower the price of resale.
for resale prices to moderate, the first to suffer is the COV. when COV reach levels like 10-20k, then the next thing to get a hit is the valuation itself. i think the right approach is to regulate the COV (which in itself is a big challenge), because most flat buyers do not look at valuation as a measure of affordability (that is taken care by CPF payments).
Yes agree!
The current mismatch in supply and demand is causing resale price to rise beyond reasonable level. This could be an interim measure to stablise the price.
To accommodate 6.5m people comfortable and without causing the problems that we now experiencing, it needs a long term plan. What I am trying to explain in my analysis is that it may be naive to think that just because we are now looking at 6.5m people, we come to the conclusion that prices will rise beyond our means. The government needs to ensure that the problems we are facing now will not happen again when the time comes.
BOTTOMLINE..we can talk till the cows come home...but nothing will change cos sillyporeans are all SUPER KANCHEONG STYLE....u que i que u buy i buy....:D:D:D....dont believe this thursday morning go spore expo...1st day of SITEX...u know what i mean whether buying TV or property all the same...super KANCHEONG style....:D:D:D...enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5xEZCLWrsU
BOTTOMLINE..we can talk till the cows come home...but nothing will change cos sillyporeans are all SUPER KANCHEONG STYLE....u que i que u buy i buy....:D:D:D....dont believe this thursday morning go spore expo...1st day of SITEX...u know what i mean whether buying TV or property all the same...super KANCHEONG style....:D:D:D...enjoy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5xEZCLWrsU
Bro, I try to tell them until my finger got blister... We need to help ourselves. I agree w u!!!!
I think 'jwong71' response to the "90% of population happy with high price" makes most sense. The government already admitted that they lost a lot of votes during the last GE due to high property prices.
If anyone believe otherwise, maybe we should just let it be.....
And the govt's response to appease the public was the slew of cooling measures for the private sector. Beyond increasing the supply of BTOs, they have not taken any direct measure or policy to adjust HDB prices and it is unlikely that they will do so in the future. Just look at the past housing booms. How many measures were implemented for the public sector ? Why? It is too great a political risk when 80 to 90% of your voting populace is impacted.
That you have to ask PAP. They came to that conclusion.
Maybe, ask yourself (no offence intended) do you prefer your flat to be worth high on paper and your children could not afford to buy?
If you have no children and no intention to upgrade, no benefit of having high price.
If you have intention to upgrade, low price also means you can upgrade at lower price. No real benefit of high price.
The only people who will be badly affected by low price If you are highly leveraged on investment properties and this people form the minority.
Hope this "analysis" help!
Your analysis is flawed as it assumes an ideal world where human nature and greed does not exist.
1. If you have no children and no intention to upgrade, no benefit of having high price
Basic human nature means all of us would want to see our networth grow (even on paper) as this would become our nest egg. If you have no children, you will want your future asset to reach as high a value as possible to support your old age. What would happen (and we are seeing it now) is that older people will sell that asset and then downgrade to a cheaper/smaller place because they don't need the space. They wouldn't care if the downgraded asset is at a high because they just want the buffer to retire on.
2 If you have intention to upgrade, low price also means you can upgrade at lower price. No real benefit of high price
Basic human nature also dictates that if you want to upgrade, you will want to do it in style which means they want to jump to private condo or landed and NOT stay in public housing. Bottom line, they want HDB prices to become higher whilst private housing to be lower (if you analyse today's situation, this is exactly the point we are in right now). For those holding onto HDB, they will want the HDB prices to trend higher so that the gap between public and private narrows and then they can upgrade.
3. The only people who will be badly affected by low price If you are highly leveraged on investment properties and this people form the minority.
I think any group, be it public or private housing will not be happy if they see their networth on paper decrease.
History has shown that when the economy was down and property prices were depressed, the ruling party got the highest votes. Need I say more?
History has shown that when the economy was down and property prices were depressed, the ruling party got the highest votes. Need I say more?
Again a flawed assumption that there is a correlation between vote percentage and property prices. The high votes were because of the poor economy (of which property prices was just one of the symptoms). More voters was because of not wanting to risk voting in an opposition which might cause more economic uncertainty and NOT because they were thankful to the ruling party for bringing down prices.
All bros and sis here got sharp minds and sharp fingers. Can think and type so much.
For me, i dont give a damn to any measures. Save enuff, hoot one property. Save enuff, hoot another one again. Think too much cause brain damage. I think when our parents give birth to us and the other 5-8 siblings they also dont think too much about their housing, education etc. we all turn out fine. Gee, i talk too much. (Muz be like chestnut, talk and end cool.)
Again a flawed assumption that there is a correlation between vote percentage and property prices. The high votes were because of the poor economy (of which property prices was just one of the symptoms). More voters was because of not wanting to risk voting in an opposition which might cause more economic uncertainty.
No Statiistician dare to claim that there is no correlation for any set of variables unless they establish the coorrelation coefficient. In the absent of it, it is unwise to publicly state so.
No Statiistician dare to claim that there is no correlation for any set of variables unless they establish the coorrelation coefficient. In the absent of it, it is unwise to publicly state so.
It is also unwise to state that there is a correlation when there is no substantive evidence to corroborate it
It is also unwise to state that there is a correlation when there is no substantive evidence to corroborate it
You missed the point totally!
You missed the point totally!
So have you as my reference to history was about govt measures for public housing during boom time which is in the context of this thread. As usual, your defence mechanisms aka avoidance and change topic quickly kicks in very fast. Please reply within the context of what we are discussing.
So have you as my reference to history was about govt measures for public housing during boom time which is in the context of this thread. As usual, your defence mechanisms aka avoidance and change topic quickly kicks in very fast. Please reply within the context of what we are discussing.
Go goggle and find out what LKY had said post GE election. I enjoy exchange of ideas but not provoking one to response. I can choose not to response when I see no joy in doing so.
In life, never try to seek a definite answer because there is none.
Go goggle and find out what LKY had said post GE election. I enjoy exchange of ideas but not provoking one to response. I can choose not to response when I see no joy in doing so.
In life, never try to seek a definite answer because there is none.
There are many things said before, during and after the election. If you are naive enough to believe eveything wholesale, so be it.
I am not pressing you for any definitive answer but I am just discussing on certain assumptions which I think are flawed and have stated my point of view. If you feel otherwise, please do feel free to rebutt within the context. If not, I shall leave it at that.
There are many things said before, during and after the election. If you are naive enough to believe eveything wholesale, so be it.
I am not pressing you for any definitive answer but I am just discussing on certain assumptions which I think are flawed and have stated my point of view. If you feel otherwise, please do feel free to rebutt within the context. If not, I shall leave it at that.
In a public forum like this one, we share our views and ideas. If we see value and joy in enagaging further, we proceed and try to learn from each other. When we sense the engagement is becoming confrontational or provoking, it just makes no sense to response further.
I do appreciate your softening tone.
I think this thread entering an analysis paralysis zone.
If I may simplify it, just look at the bare facts and come to your own conclusion. All those hopes and wants are just noises.
I think this thread entering an analysis paralysis zone.
If I may simplify it, just look at the bare facts and come to your own conclusion. All those hopes and wants are just noises.
What a way to close this thread. Thank you!
I think this thread entering an analysis paralysis zone.
If I may simplify it, just look at the bare facts and come to your own conclusion. All those hopes and wants are just noises.
Which is why of all the ministers, I think KBW is most worth the millions he is making. When it comes to managing HDB prices, it's not just $ and cents, we are talking about a roof over the head for many people. Way too much sensitivities involved!!!
Which is why of all the ministers, I think KBW is most worth the millions he is making. When it comes to managing HDB prices, it's not just $ and cents, we are talking about a roof over the head for many people. Way too much sensitivities involved!!!
agree on this!!! amongst the FT prob, MRT prob and HDB prob, no prize for guessing which prob is the best handled thus far.
his "Basic" instinct is there...only hoping for 50% drop by 2015??:eek:
kidding...:D
So have you as my reference to history was about govt measures for public housing during boom time which is in the context of this thread. As usual, your defence mechanisms aka avoidance and change topic quickly kicks in very fast. Please reply within the context of what we are discussing.
So have you as my reference to history was about govt measures for public housing during boom time which is in the context of this thread. As usual, your defence mechanisms aka avoidance and change topic quickly kicks in very fast. Please reply within the context of what we are discussing.
After reading the last few posts, I'm with proper-t totally.
If you made an assertion, you should defend it. "just to share an opinion", sure, but admit you made an assertion not a fact; and if every time you can only make assertion without substantiating it, dun feel "provoked" when ppl say "what you say is wrong".
proper-t made very detailed and clear his position and rebuttal of TS's stand that "if you dun upgrade/have no kids, no need to have high HDB prices". For really constructive discussion, we would like to see how TS dispute that.
40 of these per month.
http://infosthetics.com/archives/one_billion_dollars.jpg
Quantitative Easing 1 (QE1, December 2008 to March 2010)
"On November 25, 2008, the Federal Reserve announced that it would purchase up to $600 billion in agency mortgage-backed securities (MBS) and agency debt. On December 1, Chairman Bernanke provided further details in a speech. On December 16, the program was formally launched by the FOMC.
On March 18, 2009, the FOMC announced that the program would be expanded by an additional $750 billion in purchases of agency MBS and agency debt and $300 billion in purchases of Treasury securities.
Quantitative Easing 2 (QE2, November 2010 to June 2011 )
In November, 03,2010, the Fed announced that it would purchase $600 billion of longer dated treasuries, at a rate of $75bn per month. That program, popularly known as "QE2", concluded in June 2011
[edit]Operation Twist (2011)
The Federal Open Market Committee concluded its September 21, 2011 Meeting at about 2:15 p.m. EDT by announcing the implementation of Operation Twist.
This is a plan to purchase $400 billion of bonds with maturities of 6 to 30 years and to sell bonds with maturities less than 3 years, thereby extending the average maturity of the Fed's own portfolio.[6] This is an attempt to do what Quantitative Easing (QE) tries to do, without printing more money and without expanding the Fed's balance sheet, therefore hopefully avoiding the inflationary pressure associated with QE.[4] This announcement brought a bout of risk aversion in the equity markets and strengthened the US Dollar, whereas QE I had weakened the USD and supported the equity markets. Further, on June 20, 2012 the Federal Open Market Committee announced an extension to the Twist programme by adding additionally $267 billion thereby extending it throughout 2012.
Quantitative Easing 3 (QE3)
On Sept 13, 2012, the Federal Reserve announced a third round of quantitative easing (QE3).[7] This new round of quantitative easing provided for an open-ended commitment to purchase $40 billion agency mortgage-backed securities per month until the labor market improves "substantially."
There is no bubble yet in the Singapore property market, said Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew.
The sharp price increases that have been experienced were "part of the total liquidity in the whole world system", said Mr. Lee, adding that foreigners still see properties as affordable and interest rates are still low.
"Even if we cap our excess, people in Hong Kong, Indonesia, will say, compared to what I have to pay, Singapore is cheap, let’s buy it," he said. "And apart from landed properties, they can buy into any condos."
Mr. Lee said the Singapore government is convinced that there is an underlying demand for residential property. "So it’s probably not a bubble yet."
He stressed that the Singapore government has taken measures to address concerns regarding the market overheating such as releasing more land to property developers and putting in place more stringent policies for homebuyers when borrowing from banks to acquire a property.
"More land is being released, to dampen the enthusiasm of everybody rushing for the latest release, and we’ve told the banks to be more prudent and have a higher downpayment," said Mr. Lee.
"These are the precautions we can take, but it does not stop the Indonesians or the Thais or the Malaysian Chinese or the Filipino Chinese from coming here and saying, ‘Compared to what I have to pay in my country, this is cheap’."
Ah Beng and Ah Seng each have one bank to print money.
Ah Beng print 40 Billion a month, What will Ah Seng Do?
You cannot stop Day for buying your property and you cannot stop China man also, your 50 state you give special, no ABSD.
blackapple
20-11-12, 20:35
MND is selling BTO at discounted price to resale. The BTO is priced to sell from 250K to 350K to the young one. The government encourage those who want to buy, please buy at the non mature estate as the chance are higher.
So 70,000 (20000 in 2009, 25K in 2010 and 2011) couples applied for the past 3 years. Some pay more if they are fortunate to get mature estate. Imagine if the government adjusted policy, HDB resale price drop. Then BTO price drop. This group of 70000 young couple will have negative equity and feel unhappy.
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