View Full Version : Will The Last Round Of Cooling Measure Affect Landed Buyers?
As per the title. Anyone U-turned after the last CT?
Considering the quantum and age of most landed buyers I wld think so but I maybe wrong.
As per the title. Anyone U-turned after the last CT?
Considering the quantum and age of most landed buyers I wld think so but I maybe wrong.I would suspect yes, since need to folk out a larger sum of cash. it also affect the bigger size condos too.
buttercarp
29-10-12, 14:12
I don't think so cos the minority live on landed.
And foreigners cannot buy landed.
Even if it affect, there will not be much direct effect as most buy to stay and not speculate.
landed is king of the mkt nothing affects the king...:cool:...except maybe :scared-1:...dunno la just tcss again...:D
spore landed property will down >50% before 2015, stop buying landed property & landed property is on it's way down now......
Not I say one! :D
buttercarp
30-10-12, 20:33
spore landed property will down >50% before 2015, stop buying landed property & landed property is on it's way down now......
Not I say one! :D
Hi, you are a frequent poster at MrTB's thread, right?
Hi, you are a frequent poster at MrTB's thread, right?
I'm the B Hunter..
Hunt from sghouse when Luxus Hills $1.6m.. till condosg when Luxus Hills $2.4m.. till before MR B go MIA when Luxus Hills $2.9m....... till now still looking for this FAILURE :D
spore landed property will down >50% before 2015, stop buying landed property & landed property is on it's way down now......
Not I say one! :D
That one who say this won't appear again,
unless if mkt really drop 50% in 2015.
Huat ah
I'm the B Hunter..
Hunt from sghouse when Luxus Hills $1.6m.. till condosg when Luxus Hills $2.4m.. till before MR B go MIA when Luxus Hills $2.9m....... till now still looking for this FAILURE :D
Now at $2.9m ..still can buy??
Now at $2.9m ..still can buy??
Look at demand/supply lor...
No. of SG citizens growing at what rate ???
New supply of landed houses coming on-stream ????
What is the alternative if you compare $psf built-up of a neighbouring ground fl condo/apt unit vs $psf built up of Luxus ???
Saw a group of agents going around my estate last night asking if we are interested to sell our landed property. :ashamed1:
Wah... door-to-door soliciting...better hold on to yr landed. Hard to replace nowadays.
Yah....got a few offers for mine but told them not for sale. I also see many notices posted around my estate saying that a foreigner with approval wanting to buy landed...didn't know gahment still giving out approvals...thought clamp down already.
bargain hunter
01-11-12, 09:17
The article is saying no impact on GCB whatsoever and just slight impact on the smaller properties outside of GCB Areas:
RealStar's Mr Wong said that for smaller bungalows outside GCB Areas as well as semi-detached properties, "we've seen a couple of cases where potential buyers had to re-do their sums on cash outlay and monthly mortgage payment, which led them to eventually withdraw from the purchase".
Secretariat
01-11-12, 19:38
If you are a Singaporean, with resources and looking for property, but too lazy to do the maths of landed investment, all I can say is
"It is a real pity."
Unless you hate staying in a landed. More accurately, you dislike the architecture of older landed houses, but this can be resolved with modern architecture.
Proper_t has already listed some very relevant questions. My calculation done in 2009 showed an investment in rebuilding a new house would yield a free FH land. This calculation is still valid today.
But don't take my words for it, do your own calculations.
If you are a Singaporean, with resources and looking for property, but too lazy to do the maths of landed investment, all I can say is
"It is a real pity."
Unless you hate staying in a landed. More accurately, you dislike the architecture of older landed houses, but this can be resolved with modern architecture.
Proper_t has already listed some very relevant questions. My calculation done in 2009 showed an investment in rebuilding a new house would yield a free FH land. This calculation is still valid today.
But don't take my words for it, do your own calculations.
Can see an example of your calculation to yield a FH land?
Buy 5000sqft old land.. cut up into 2 landed and sell one?
Your view is different from BJ. Interesting :)
Secretariat
02-11-12, 10:04
Can see an example of your calculation to yield a FH land?
Buy 5000sqft old land.. cut up into 2 landed and sell one?
Your view is different from BJ. Interesting :)
That is one way.
If the timing is good, then you don't even need to do this. My two rebuilt terraces, the two plots of 2000 sqf FH land, today they are 120% free. Having said this, I am here to share, not to talk about what happens to my investments. If others have different views (or better, information) to share, then of course I am happy to learn too.
I will provide some figures, then others can go to work out the calculations. You need to work out the calculations, to fully grasp the maths, to really understand the situation.
Multiplier
To grow money, you need a multiplier.
Starbucks will not be what it is today, if it stays operating in Pike Place Seattle. Same with A&F, etc etc, you name it.
Same with the people here in this forum. They have one property, or 2, or 3, and they think that property price is going up for the next 5 years, so "better get a second unit...", or the 3rd, or 4th.
They want to increase the multiplier. Price increased by $xxx psf over a year, but they are saying "aiyo, should have bought another unit last year..."
The multiplier effect grows money faster.
In landed, it is rather unique, because the multiplier is the Gross Plot Ratio. I simplify the calculation, if a landed of 2000 sqf with GPR of 1.5, you can tear down the old house, and build up to 3000 sqf.
In reality, it is more than 3000 sqf (because of how GFA is calculated, and then there are so-called bonus GFA), but as I said, let's simplify the illustration.
So, you bought a 2000 sqf FH with an old house of 1000 sqf sitting on it, when it is rebuilt into a 3000 sqf new house, your multiplier changed from 1000 sqf to 3000 sqf.
Then what is the cost of the multiplier? This one, it is a knowledge one can get only after experiencing a rebuilding. You won't know this when you buy a landed from a developer.
To be continued in the next post...
buttercarp
02-11-12, 11:38
Hi secretariat, after you rebuilt the house, you have to market it and get an agent to sell it.
May I ask if you pay the agent the usual market rate like any seller in the market?
I assume you have very good holding power as well.
To rebuild a house requires good contacts eg architects, contractors etc.
I assume you are in the building industry and thus have good contacts and therefore you have been successful.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 12:18
Part II.
When we speak of the cost of multiplier, it refers to the cost of rebuilding, the cost of construction.
This is where things are really clouded.
(In my experience, different contractors have different ways of pricing a rebuilding. It took me a while to study all these, and also the luck to come across a contractor who is very honest. So here it goes.)
A honest contractor will price $xxx psf based on GFA, the actual GFA figures submitted to BCA, URA, IRAS, certified by the architect you employed. Please google the definition of GFA, for its meaning.
Other not so honest contractors will price $yyy psf based on build-in, or build-up. The problem is that there is no legal definition of build-in, BCA doesnt use this term. So along the way, there is inevitably serious discussions among the owner and his contractor, on what is what.
Now, when a GLS is awarded, such as Keppel Land's winning bid recently, we can read the property commentators, saying "OK, price of land ppr of the bid is $700, add construction cost of $350 psf, add developer profit of $250 psf, we expect the selling price per unit at $1300 psf"
So when you buy a unit, in this example, you are paying for:
- The land premium, or future value of the land,
- The contractor gross profit of $100 psf (my estimate, the detail to be discussed later)
- The developer gross profit of $250 psf, if the units are indeed launched at $1300 psf, but you can check if this is true in this kind of market.
Total $350 psf, more if you add the land premium.
So, that is $1.05 mil that you can avoid paying if you choose to rebuild, instead of buying a 3000 sqf PC.
(To be continued in next post...)
interesting insights :) will await your next post haha
Good & informative posts @secretariat. Keep it up !
useful sharings secretariat !
this multipier is useful, read about this in some posts before.
in your experiences, has this multiplier become smaller over time cos of higher asking prices of old fh land as sellers become more aware of their increased plot ratio?
buttercarp
02-11-12, 13:51
"A honest contractor will price $xxx psf based on GFA"
Good point!
Looking forward to more, Secretariat!
Secretariat
02-11-12, 14:00
Part III.
When you look at the quote of a contractor (an honest one), the items can be broadly separated into two category.
Wet Works (again, I am using a broad description)
This covers all the works related to foundation, structure, wall, horizontal floor slabs, electrical, telecom, sanitary & plumbing, vertical installations like windows, doors etc. Inside and outside of the house.
In 2009, the cost psf of this category was about $90-$120, depending on whether the Contractor's basis of pricing was build-in or other methods. Today, this figure ranges $150-$200, due to inflation plus a higher level of greed.
BCA has very stringent rules related to what kind of material is certified for use, so there is not really a big worry that a contractor application of material is vastly different from another. Generally. But there are still crooks out there, who try to save on the cement, for example.
BCA has no separate rules in this area, say, Sentosa bungalow must use a higher grade. If a higher grade is applied, it is more due to specific condition where the house is intended. Such as type of soil.
However, there is a difference in the workmanship of these wet works, such as wall plastering. So, a higher cost psf should indicate a higher quality of results.
To recap, the cost of wet works is between $150-$200 psf today.
Finishing
Finishing refers to the quality of material used for flooring, the marble, the timber-flooring, the sanitary fitting, the kitchen fitting etc.
You will find these priced in a construction contract. Marble at $xx psf, teak timber floor at $yy psf, brand of sanitary fittings etc.
This is the part that distinguish one landed from another (other than architecture, which will be described later). The better quality material used, of course, creates more value to the house.
But it is also this part that the contractor plays with, in generating a quote. The contractor will ask, "what is your budget?" and price this category according.
In my case, I signed the contract with all these budgeted items, and VO (variation order) everything when came to installation. These items required careful study with the ID, and quite impossible to determine at such an early stage at contract signing.
In conclusion of this part, the cost of rebuilding is about $250 psf.
(To be continued...next part we talk about creating equity from a rebuilding. Notice the word "create".)
Not to encroach on his great write-up but from my experience, re-development of landed is really fascinating and if you read the rules properly, it can throw up many little nuggets which can be used to increase the value and not just the GFA increase via the multiplier. :
e.g. 1 which many people probably know about...
Semi-Ds can be converted into bungalows if the right conditions exists...
e.g. 2
You can make your house 2.5m higher if your house is on a sloping ground and you build a basement.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 14:05
Hi secretariat, after you rebuilt the house, you have to market it and get an agent to sell it.
May I ask if you pay the agent the usual market rate like any seller in the market?
I assume you have very good holding power as well.
To rebuild a house requires good contacts eg architects, contractors etc.
I assume you are in the building industry and thus have good contacts and therefore you have been successful.
I am not in building industry.
I hope that you can excuse me, but I don't go into the financial detail.
The other house is still there, within walking distance of the one I am staying, I tend the garden, it is used for visitors. That's about it.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 14:07
Not to encroach on his great write-up but from my experience, re-development of landed is really fascinating and if you read the rules properly, it can throw up many little nuggets which can be used to increase the value and not just the GFA increase via the multiplier. :
e.g. 1 which many people probably know about...
Semi-Ds can be converted into bungalows if the right conditions exists...
e.g. 2
You can make your house 2.5m higher if your house is on a sloping ground and you build a basement.
Yes.
All information are welcomed.
Thanks for sharing all your past experiences. Yep, indeed, after all these years dabbling in real estate mkt, I find landed to be the most flexible in value generation amongst all the other property types.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 14:16
useful sharings secretariat !
this multipier is useful, read about this in some posts before.
in your experiences, has this multiplier become smaller over time cos of higher asking prices of old fh land as sellers become more aware of their increased plot ratio?
When you are scouting for old FH landed, I am sure that you will find what I discovered:
- Old couple, stay there for decades, no energy no money to rebuild, have no idea of the true value of the house. They are at the mercy of property agents. I "fired" agents who took advantage of this kind of couple,
- Someone who inherited the house, no money to rebuild, most probably a serial gambler in urgent need of money.
Otherwise, you can beg all you want, the owner just won't sell.
Part II.
When we speak of the cost of multiplier, it refers to the cost of rebuilding, the cost of construction.
This is where things are really clouded.
(In m
So, that is $1.05 mil that you can avoid paying if you choose to rebuild, instead of buying a 3000 sqf PC.
(To be continued in next post...)
I think you can start a new thread and cut your sharing there. it's very good. I have done this exploration before but no action unlike you :) So the part on dealing with the contractors and such are a cloud to me.
If you are a Singaporean, with resources and looking for property, but too lazy to do the maths of landed investment, all I can say is
"It is a real pity."
Unless you hate staying in a landed. More accurately, you dislike the architecture of older landed houses, but this can be resolved with modern architecture.
Proper_t has already listed some very relevant questions. My calculation done in 2009 showed an investment in rebuilding a new house would yield a free FH land. This calculation is still valid today.
But don't take my words for it, do your own calculations.
hey we share the same calculation. i was sharing with my colleagues and family about this when i was buiding my house in 2007. Nobody pays attention to me...now, as people always say, the rest is history...
this year, my family members start to believe me and together we bought 2 landed...:D but hopefully with the construction costs and etc... the calculation still valid...:D
at that time, my salary is not enough for me to venture out...
Secretariat
02-11-12, 15:32
Part IV.
Creating equity from rebuilding.
It remains a mystery, to me, how this can be overlooked by property investment community. And I don't even need to dwell on the supply side of the supply-demand equation, which everyone should be able to see when we talk about FH landed.
Sit down when your banker, and ask "listen, I am considering buying this FH landed, tear down the old house and rebuild a 3000 sqf new house. Here are my questions..,":
Q1: "The owner is asking for $2.0 mil. Does the bank support financing it?"
(The banker, for an experienced banker, can straight away tell you the bank's indicative price.)
Q2: "This is what I plan to do in rebuilding...how many storeys, how many rooms, what kind of floorings, what kind of fixtures etc.
What is the bank indicative value AFTER the rebuilding?"
(The banker can also straight away tell you the bank's figure, although the figure is non-committal and subjects to the opinion of the bank's valuer.)
In this short 10-minutes or so conversation, you will find out that the bank's indicative value of the new house is more than the sum of (the initial purchase price + the cost of rebuilding). For example, $3.3 mil for the new house, where you are paying $2.0 mil for the old house & land, the cost of rebuilding being $750,000. Of course, there is the additional ID cost to add, but the point is that you will know the equity of about $500,000 straight away.
Now, try to ask the bank for its indicative future price of a PC you are buying and see what kind of answer you can get?
In this low interest rate environment, it still makes sense to borrow from the bank to finance a rebuilding. And the reasons are non-financial.
When you ask the bank for a construction loan, to rebuild, the bank will ask for the detail..."who is your contractor, who is the architect?". And the bank will check their backgrounds, using its panel, free of charge for you. So, why not? There are plenty of stories of contractors abandoning projects, for various reasons.
The other reason is structuring the relationship between you, the contractor and the architect. When you are paying them from your own fund (that means that you are not borrowing a construction loan), funny things can happen...the contractor asks for upfront payment, threatening to stop works until etc etc.
This is the last thing you want to see in rebuilding.
So, with a construction loan, all payment requests are to be certified by the architect, only after a stage has been completed, such as foundation etc. They want to be paid, they have to complete the works, according to schedule. (Bank also tracks schedule)
At TOP, the bank will send its valuer to formally appraise the new house, and the assessed equity gets recorded in the bank system.
(To be continued...on the subject of architecture)
buttercarp
02-11-12, 15:40
Wow, so interesting and informative!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"When you ask the bank for a construction loan, to rebuild, the bank will ask for the detail..."who is your contractor, who is the architect?". And the bank will check their backgrounds, using its panel, free of charge for you. So, why not? There are plenty of stories of contractors abandoning projects, for various reasons."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you unknowingly get a contractor with a bad history, the bank will find out and let you know and won't approve of the loan? All FOC.
That's fantastic!
Btw, are there any pre requisites for a construction loan?
Part IV.
Creating equity from rebuilding.
It remains a mystery, to me, how this can be overlooked by property investment community. And I don't even need to dwell on the supply side of the supply-demand equation, which everyone should be able to see when we talk about FH landed.
Sit down when your banker, and ask "listen, I am considering buying this FH landed, tear down the old house and rebuild a 3000 sqf new house. Here are my questions..,":
Q1: "The owner is asking for $2.0 mil. Does the bank support financing it?"
(The banker, for an experienced banker, can straight away tell you the bank's indicative price.)
Q2: "This is what I plan to do in rebuilding...how many storeys, how many rooms, what kind of floorings, what kind of fixtures etc.
What is the bank indicative value AFTER the rebuilding?"
(The banker can also straight away tell you the bank's figure, although the figure is non-committal and subjects to the opinion of the bank's valuer.)
In this short 10-minutes or so conversation, you will find out that the bank's indicative value of the new house is more than the sum of (the initial purchase price + the cost of rebuilding). For example, $3.3 mil for the new house, where you are paying $2.0 mil for the old house & land, the cost of rebuilding being $750,000. Of course, there is the additional ID cost to add, but the point is that you will know the equity of about $500,000 straight away.
Now, try to ask the bank for its indicative future price of a PC you are buying and see what kind of answer you can get?
In this low interest rate environment, it still makes sense to borrow from the bank to finance a rebuilding. And the reasons are non-financial.
When you ask the bank for a construction loan, to rebuild, the bank will ask for the detail..."who is your contractor, who is the architect?". And the bank will check their backgrounds, using its panel, free of charge for you. So, why not? There are plenty of stories of contractors abandoning projects, for various reasons.
The other reason is structuring the relationship between you, the contractor and the architect. When you are paying them from your own fund (that means that you are not borrowing a construction loan), funny things can happen...the contractor asks for upfront payment, threatening to stop works until etc etc.
This is the last thing you want to see in rebuilding.
So, with a construction loan, all payment requests are to be certified by the architect, only after a stage has been completed, such as foundation etc. They want to be paid, they have to complete the works, according to schedule. (Bank also tracks schedule)
At TOP, the bank will send its valuer to formally appraise the new house, and the assessed equity gets recorded in the bank system.
(To be continued...on the subject of architecture)
wah very interesting leh.. can you type faster....
buttercarp
02-11-12, 15:44
wah very interesting leh.. can you type faster....
Yes yes, can't wait for more!
You have turned us into compulsive readers of this thread.
Can admin create a new thread dedicated to this topic eg Secretariat's golden nuggets (just a suggestion)?
Secretariat
02-11-12, 16:53
Part V.
(I am typing as fast as I can, while trying to make sure that the content is correct, so please help to highlight any discrepancies found according to your experience.)
I am not an architect, obviously, but let's touch a little bit on architecture of Singapore landed houses. Afterwhich, in Part VI, we look at how other landed houses (strata, cluster) are priced by developers. And with these, we wrap up this series of topic.
I will focus on the architecture of local terraces, because for semi-d, bungalow etc there is not really an issue with the existing architecture.
Terraced is a British import. Most probably, in no other country in the world can you find the number of terraces in Great Britain. It is a unique British landscape.
There is a law in England & Wales (nowadays that's how it is called, since Scotland has been given the rights to create its laws by the Crown), related to the rights of daylight.
If you are building a house in England, and the house is assessed to cast a long shadow over your neighbor, therefore robbing them of the luxury of daylight, the planning council will object to the construction.
So, terraces in England have a typical length of 10m or so, counting from the facade to the back wall. This is because the daylight can only reach about 5m of an a room through a reasonably sized window.
When terraces started to be developed in Singapore, firstly by Bukit Sembawang I believe, they were almost universally single storey, with an airwell or courtyard in the midst. The break was necessary because, let's say a 2000 sqf land plot, the length would be about 30m. Less the setbacks of about 10m, the building would still be about 20m long.
Without the break, a terrace is almost certainly in darkness internally, with poor ventilation. Old or new terrace.
And even more so for a newly rebuilded terrace, where the owner decided to maximize the GPR.
The main complaints you will hear from terraced owners are these, lack of daylight and poor ventilation. The third complaint is that, it is not suitable or inconvenient for old folks or young kids.
These are architecture issues. These issues are taken care of in new landed housing by developers. You look at The Greenwood, Cabana, etc (Luxus Hill, looking from outside), you can see the shorten length of about 10, 12m, avoiding the need to construct a break within, and they follow the British architecture.
The internal of a landed should also be considered properly. There are typically 3 storeys, so consider your lifestyle and assign each storey for its purpose. If you hate the stair, then why put the master bedroom at the 3rd storey? (I read this story in another site, the owner designed the 3rd storey for his master, a study area, and then complained having to climb 3 storeys to get there. His is a newly refurbished terrace house)
These days, there seems to be a greater awareness of these issues by new owners who rebuilt. And they are taking a step further, creating an outdoor shower area so as to bath under the moonlight etc. Sort of a back to nature thing.
(To be continued...on build-in, build-up)
Secretariat
02-11-12, 17:35
Part VI.
(This post is intentionally left short, because I suspect that it can be sensitive to some.)
Some defined build-in as to count all the internal spaces.
Some defined build-up as to count all the spaces including those exposed to the moon.
But certainly, they don't equate to GFA.
Does it matter? I supposed so, if you want to know exactly what you are paying in a landed, in a rebuilding viz-a-viz one to be purchased from a developer.
Take Haus at Serangoon for example, it is marketed based on build-up. Then what is its 'real' psf based on GFA?
http://www.haus-serangoongarden.com.sg/?gclid=CO2Shuqqr7MCFVEP6wodfw8A6Q
Secretariat
02-11-12, 17:36
hey we share the same calculation. i was sharing with my colleagues and family about this when i was buiding my house in 2007. Nobody pays attention to me...now, as people always say, the rest is history...
this year, my family members start to believe me and together we bought 2 landed...:D but hopefully with the construction costs and etc... the calculation still valid...:D
at that time, my salary is not enough for me to venture out...
Glad that your family members did.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 17:38
Yes yes, can't wait for more!
You have turned us into compulsive readers of this thread.
Can admin create a new thread dedicated to this topic eg Secretariat's golden nuggets (just a suggestion)?
I prefer that these nuggets get hidden *wink*
Secretariat
02-11-12, 18:23
I think you can start a new thread and cut your sharing there. it's very good. I have done this exploration before but no action unlike you :) So the part on dealing with the contractors and such are a cloud to me.
It is always a problem for a start, simply because a rebuilding is a major task, and not everyone has the experience.
I was introduced to this contractor and the architect by a friend (actually the girl who migrated to Canada), He didn't do a terrace project; in his office, there are photos of all the projects he did, none was terrace. He told me, terrace, he won't make money, also he charged higher psf (understandable, as his projects have been semi- d, bungalows.
I stalked him for months, bought nice lunches for him & the architect, paid for the occasional facials, just to get all the information about rebuilding from them, went to his projects in Sentosa, 6th Avenue etc. Finally, he tried to throw me off his back, by saying "ok la, for you I will only do it for 2 units." So, I ended up with 2 by accident.
He is 68-years old this year, and has been winding down the operation. The labor cost has grown to be a risk to him.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 18:46
Wow, so interesting and informative!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"When you ask the bank for a construction loan, to rebuild, the bank will ask for the detail..."who is your contractor, who is the architect?". And the bank will check their backgrounds, using its panel, free of charge for you. So, why not? There are plenty of stories of contractors abandoning projects, for various reasons."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
So if you unknowingly get a contractor with a bad history, the bank will find out and let you know and won't approve of the loan? All FOC.
That's fantastic!
Btw, are there any pre requisites for a construction loan?
Sorry, just saw the questions.
Ans 1: The loan approval will then pend for the change of contractor or architect.
And 2: MAS CMs applied. No other special requisites.
Secretariat
02-11-12, 19:03
useful sharings secretariat !
this multipier is useful, read about this in some posts before.
in your experiences, has this multiplier become smaller over time cos of higher asking prices of old fh land as sellers become more aware of their increased plot ratio?
The multiplier is the GFA, in this example, 3000 sqf. So this is fixed. The market pricing of the multiplier changes according to how bullish or bearish the market is.
Just like if you have one PC, 1000 sqf, and you buy another PC for investment, 1500 sqf. Total multiplier becomes 2500 sqf. So, when the market pricing goes up by $100 psf, the equity of the multiplier gains by $100 times 2500. Therefore, buying more PCs are increasing the multiplier effect.
Another thing about the multiplier created by rebuilding, it is the cost of construction. The bare baseline, so to speak. At $250 psf, there is not much room to drop, isn't it?
Part VI.
(This post is intentionally left short, because I suspect that it can be sensitive to some.)
Some defined build-in as to count all the internal spaces.
Some defined build-up as to count all the spaces including those exposed to the moon.
But certainly, they don't equate to GFA.
Does it matter? I supposed so, if you want to know exactly what you are paying in a landed, in a rebuilding viz-a-viz one to be purchased from a developer.
Take Haus at Serangoon for example, it is marketed based on build-up. Then what is its 'real' psf based on GFA?
http://www.haus-serangoongarden.com.sg/?gclid=CO2Shuqqr7MCFVEP6wodfw8A6Q
the website list 2 areas, land area and floor area.
from squarefoot, it appears that caveat lodge is based on land area.
so you are saying based on buildup area, psf is cheap, but based of GFA, psf is expensive?
i dont get your point here.
It is always a problem for a start, simply because a rebuilding is a major task, and not everyone has the experience.
Now at least i know who to ask if i got chance to do A&A or rebuilt.
Slt and you! ..hehe
++++LIKED++++
Secretariat
03-11-12, 05:18
the website list 2 areas, land area and floor area.
from squarefoot, it appears that caveat lodge is based on land area.
so you are saying based on buildup area, psf is cheap, but based of GFA, psf is expensive?
i dont get your point here.
I don't want to get into the question of whether it is cheaper or more expensive, because other than the psf consideration, there can be other lifestyle factors to take into account.
The property tax of a residential unit is based on GFA, all government units that deal with property use this parameter.
Generally, when a developer use build-in, build-up as measuring parameter, the measurement comes up higher, to lower the psf of the unit being marketed.
For example, previously a bay window was GFA-exempted, but developer counted the space in build-in.
I am not in building industry.
I hope that you can excuse me, but I don't go into the financial detail.
The other house is still there, within walking distance of the one I am staying, I tend the garden, it is used for visitors. That's about it.
Wa, bro, can I be your visitor? If yes, I rent out my current condo and shift in and take care of your house. On top of that, we can also share investment strategies. Hahahahaha... Joking hor.
Secretariat, well done. Read thru your posting.
What u shared, is not really what many can visualize. Actually, it is the amount of effort and work put into place which then gives you knowledge.
Many people like to listen. Give u an example. Everybody will want to listen to someone's advise on how to lose weight. But out of a 100 plump person who listened, only 1 will do it. And the 99 will continue to find the ways to lose weight.
You have action bro. I like that. Did u notice, if something bothers me on a certain figure or argument(not the quarrel argument), straightaway I put in resources to check. Will call lawyer, banker, etc... Even my maintenance office knows me well. Of course, for my case because I own a few units and it so happens they manage the units.
U champion, but bro, there are a few more stuff u need to look into to give u a more holistic approach :
- supply/demand
- human emotions/behavior
- economics
- history(this I know u did).
If u play golf, u will realize it is not just your drive or putting that will win, it is the entire game, right up to creating fear to your opponent, and if u will crack under pressure. It was indeed a good read.
Secretariat
03-11-12, 10:29
Wa, bro, can I be your visitor? If yes, I rent out my current condo and shift in and take care of your house. On top of that, we can also share investment strategies. Hahahahaha... Joking hor.
LOL...it will be let go at the right time, now I am just hoarding the multiplier.
It was designed by the architect, while the one I am staying has been designed by me, so I like it better.
Secretariat
03-11-12, 10:31
Now at least i know who to ask if i got chance to do A&A or rebuilt.
Slt and you! ..hehe
++++LIKED++++
No problem.
Thank you Secretariat for the valuable insight! Have always been `playing' with PCs and is a complete mountain tortoise when it comes to landed. It is good info :cheers5:
Secretariat
04-11-12, 13:31
Thank you Secretariat for the valuable insight! Have always been `playing' with PCs and is a complete mountain tortoise when it comes to landed. It is good info :cheers5:
You are welcomed.
In working through the numbers, probably you will have known:
Before Rebuilding
Psf (URA records as) $2000/2000 sqf = $1000 psf
Psf (based on GFA) $2000/1000 sqf = $2000 psf, assuming the old house is 1000 sqf, quite typical.
After Rebuilding
Psf (URA records as) $2750/2000 sqf = $1375 psf
Psf (based on GFA). $2750/3000 sqf = $917 psf, assuming that the new house is sold at TOP at cost
Many buyers have been confused with the URA numbers.
Even in 2009, when a 2000 sqf FH landed was transacted at about $1.0 mil, because they were so used to calculate the price based on GFA (or build-in)..."wah, ask me to pay $1000 psf for a house constructed in 1963 arh?...better to buy a new condo at $800 psf only..."
Saw a group of agents going around my estate last night asking if we are interested to sell our landed property. :ashamed1:
got to be thick skin to make $$
got to be thick skin to make $$
I just realised you are so active in every thread.....
When you are scouting for old FH landed, I am sure that you will find what I discovered:
- Old couple, stay there for decades, no energy no money to rebuild, have no idea of the true value of the house. They are at the mercy of property agents. I "fired" agents who took advantage of this kind of couple,
- Someone who inherited the house, no money to rebuild, most probably a serial gambler in urgent need of money.
Otherwise, you can beg all you want, the owner just won't sell.
Do you see value in a newy rebuild landed property?
I just realised you are so active in every thread.....
trying to catch up my post count with carbuncle...but hard :D:D:D
Secretariat
06-11-12, 06:47
Do you see value in a newy rebuild landed property?
The following is the short answer.
For a newly rebuilt landed in the market today, it means that the developer (can be an individual, a contractor or an architect) cost should be baselined to at least 1 year ago. If it is being priced at:
$1300-$1400 psf based on URA calculation (price over land area), or
$900-$950 psf based on (price over build-in/GFA)
then there is value PROVIDED that it is on FH land, at good location, with sensible architecture.
But....
A new landed house is almost always being marketed as a "Rebuild", whether it has actually undergone a Rebuild, A&A or Reconstruction.
If it is not an actual Rebuild, then I will avoid paying the above pricing unless the architecture is very good and it sits on a good location.
The following is the short answer.
For a newly rebuilt landed in the market today, it means that the developer (can be an individual, a contractor or an architect) cost should be baselined to at least 1 year ago. If it is being priced at:
$1300-$1400 psf based on URA calculation (price over land area), or
$900-$950 psf based on (price over build-in/GFA)
then there is value PROVIDED that it is on FH land, at good location, with sensible architecture.
But....
A new landed house is almost always being marketed as a "Rebuild", whether it has actually undergone a Rebuild, A&A or Reconstruction.
If it is not an actual Rebuild, then I will avoid paying the above pricing unless the architecture is very good and it sits on a good location.
does it mean that value buy for landed property are mostly in those older units which have potential for increase build up area?
Secretariat
07-11-12, 06:49
does it mean that value buy for landed property are mostly in those older units which have potential for increase build up area?
Rebuilding is the simpliest way to create equity for landed. It is the same principle with developer buying a GLS plot and build.
Another common way is to transform by sub-division a plot, or change a semi-d into a bungalow (as mentioned by Proper_t) etc. This is another subject altogether, going into the detail of land dimension, URA regulations etc.
Rebuilding is the simpliest way to create equity for landed. It is the same principle with developer buying a GLS plot and build.
Another common way is to transform by sub-division a plot, or change a semi-d into a bungalow (as mentioned by Proper_t) etc. This is another subject altogether, going into the detail of land dimension, URA regulations etc.
I have been looking at the prices of old single storey terrace houses etc at Propertyguru and after factoring in rebuilding cost based on 250psf and the asking prices of brand new and almost brand new developments in that area and seems like not much "juice" left to profit from. Unless you are very lucky to get a good deal which is very rare or you buy and rebuild in a rising market. In a stable market, creating equity through rebuilding is not necessarily a given and the eventual meagre profit may just not be worth it. Only if i am a contractor myself, can I make a decent profit from rebuilding in a stable market.
Secretariat
07-11-12, 12:47
I have been looking at the prices of old single storey terrace houses etc at Propertyguru and after factoring in rebuilding cost based on 250psf and the asking prices of brand new and almost brand new developments in that area and seems like not much "juice" left to profit from. Unless you are very lucky to get a good deal which is very rare or you buy and rebuild in a rising market. In a stable market, creating equity through rebuilding is not necessarily a given and the eventual meagre profit may just not be worth it. Only if i am a contractor myself, can I make a decent profit from rebuilding in a stable market.
Using Propertyguru, it just won't work. An old terrace that is put on Propertyguru for sale, it is normally there because the owner is asking a non-realistic or off-market price. Or an agent "tries" for a reluctant seller.
Don't get the impression that, in 2009, there was no buyers for old terraces in good location. It would be gone within 1 or 2 days when placed in the market. I often could meet 3, 4 interested buyers within a 1 hour of looking over the land plot and the surrounding areas.
First, you need to identify the location(s) you want. Then find out which housing agent(s) you want to retain. The agent goes by territory, say covering Serangoon Garden etc. Make sure that you are a serious buyer, and your agent will then scout for units, including checking out the intention of those owners who didn't put their houses on sale.
Secretariat sir/mdm,
how do you ask the agent to look?
I always feel if you give them a budget, they will give you the landed at your budget but it might not be the value. ie, maybe owner askign for $900, but you say your budget is $1100, so agent will tell seller $1000psf got buyer and maybe hint to seller if he willing to give agent some comm?..
I donno.. what's the best way?
Secretariat
07-11-12, 14:59
Secretariat sir/mdm,
how do you ask the agent to look?
I always feel if you give them a budget, they will give you the landed at your budget but it might not be the value. ie, maybe owner askign for $900, but you say your budget is $1100, so agent will tell seller $1000psf got buyer and maybe hint to seller if he willing to give agent some comm?..
I donno.. what's the best way?
Aiyo...why bring in the budget so early.
I mentioned, you need to know the location(s) you want. This means, do some homeworks first on the location(s).
Then just tell the agent:
- This and that Jalans...show her (she drives, you show). Sometimes the agent will show you other Jalans..you confirm by saying Yes or No,
- This kind of land plot (rectangular, squarish, no odd shape etc), land size min 1800 sqf, max 2000 sqf for example,
- No truncated land, means not where the front setback has been acquired by govt,
- No elevated road in front, means that the land plot cannot be lower than the public road in front,
- If you are FS believer (or even if you are not, people who are going to buy your house in future can be FS believers), no T-junction, no lamp post in front etc etc
You can add some...
Aiyo...why bring in the budget so early.
I mentioned, you need to know the location(s) you want. This means, do some homeworks first on the location(s).
Then just tell the agent:
You can add some...
Uh. but all agents will asked how much is your budget once you give them the indication you want to buy a landed of xxx size and for A&A or minor renov.
Unavoidable question. Can say budget is $2-3mil depending on the landed?
Secretariat
07-11-12, 17:35
Uh. but all agents will asked how much is your budget once you give them the indication you want to buy a landed of xxx size and for A&A or minor renov.
Unavoidable question. Can say budget is $2-3mil depending on the landed?
It really up to you, how you manage the agents, or question.
I will either say, "there is no budget if I like it", or more likely, drop the agent.
Secretariat
07-11-12, 17:54
Let me add further.
You are hiring an agent to buy (not to sell). When she knows your requirements, she will know the market pricing for this kind of houses.
There is no reason for her to ask a question that is more related to the selling price.
If for some reasons, she doubts your intention to buy, maybe she thinks that you are just look-see, then she won't do a good job for you anyway. So, just drop her.
It really up to you, how you manage the agents, or question.
I will either say, "there is no budget if I like it", or more likely, drop the agent.
Ok.. thanks.
But i dont think i dare to say "there is no budget if I like it".. this one only reserved for the GCB owners..
Ok.. thanks.
But i dont think i dare to say "there is no budget if I like it".. this one only reserved for the GCB owners..
Bro, the agent working for you leh !!!! Why you so scared!!!!
Just state your requirements and let them do the groundwork. You really need to know your rights as a buyer. The agent needs to serve you. Period. Just act on it. you show them u serious, they will serve you. This is a solid lead for them leh. They close the deal of say 2mil, they make 20K from seller leh. You think they wont work !!!!
Bro, the agent working for you leh !!!! Why you so scared!!!!
Just state your requirements and let them do the groundwork. You really need to know your rights as a buyer. The agent needs to serve you. Period. Just act on it. you show them u serious, they will serve you. This is a solid lead for them leh. They close the deal of say 2mil, they make 20K from seller leh. You think they wont work !!!!
If you are talking about $2-3mil landed.. the landed agents have seen bigger meat , you are like the HDB agent's commisson to them. Anyway, i've been doing the calling and arranging to see the landed myself. No stable agents.
Like you go priority banking with $200k, the RM look at you like one of the just made it kind..entry level .. shrimp in a big pond.. They rather spend their time hooking the $1mil customers.
I must know my station in life.. I am a small fish in a big pond.. :)
I really think you need to talk to Secretariat.... There is a disconnect somewhere. You dont seem to know how the agents operate and assume too much....
It is really up to you. I am only here to TCSS...
Hahahahaha
:cheers4::cheers4:
If you are talking about $2-3mil landed.. the landed agents have seen bigger meat , you are like the HDB agent's commisson to them. Anyway, i've been doing the calling and arranging to see the landed myself. No stable agents.
Like you go priority banking with $200k, the RM look at you like one of the just made it kind..entry level .. shrimp in a big pond.. They rather spend their time hooking the $1mil customers.
I must know my station in life.. I am a small fish in a big pond.. :)
I really think you need to talk to Secretariat.... There is a disconnect somewhere. You dont seem to know how the agents operate and assume too much....
It is really up to you. I am only here to TCSS...
Hahahahaha
:cheers4::cheers4:
Ok, will try your method with some agents :) No worries. you've been a great help already.
Secretariat
08-11-12, 13:42
I really think you need to talk to Secretariat.... There is a disconnect somewhere. You dont seem to know how the agents operate and assume too much....
It is really up to you. I am only here to TCSS...
Hahahahaha
:cheers4::cheers4:
I have already mentioned, an agent goes by territory. Those covering Sentosa, they don't cover Serangoon Garden, for example. They can, but they don't.
The landed property agents, they are not the typical condo agents. They possess a great deal of knowledge of the areas they are covering. They can tell you about the history of an estate, value of a land or house, things about rebuilding, the better contractors, architects, financing etc.
A landed (whether for a old one-storey, or a newly rebuild), in good location, with reasonable asking price, it didn't get advertised before being sold. Once the landed is put on the market, the agent will know, even when she is not the agent appointed by the selling owner.
(Just check the URA caveat for landed transactions, how many of them were actually advertised?)
If you were to buy 2 units of condo, you have a ready resource of $3 mil, then you want to be certain that you are in the vvip lists of the developments you are interested in. To be able to get the choice units at lower prices.
Especially so for landed. Along one road, one Jalan, how many units there? 20, 30 units. How many old single-storey units? So, unless you retain an agent(s) to scout, the good ones, at good prices will be gone before you
:cheers4:
Those appeared in advertisements, Strait Times classified, Propertyguru, etc, are leftovers, those already 'rejected' by the agent clients.
I have already mentioned, an agent goes by territory. Those covering Sentosa, they don't cover Serangoon Garden, for example. They can, but they don't.
The landed property agents, they are not the typical condo agents. They possess a great deal of knowledge of the areas they are covering. They can tell you about the history of an estate, value of a land or house, things about rebuilding, the better contractors, architects, financing etc.
A landed (whether for a old one-storey, or a newly rebuild), in good location, with reasonable asking price, it didn't get advertised before being sold. Once the landed is put on the market, the agent will know, even when she is not the agent appointed by the selling owner.
(Just check the URA caveat for landed transactions, how many of them were actually advertised?)
If you were to buy 2 units of condo, you have a ready resource of $3 mil, then you want to be certain that you are in the vvip lists of the developments you are interested in. To be able to get the choice units at lower prices.
Especially so for landed. Along one road, one Jalan, how many units there? 20, 30 units. How many old single-storey units? So, unless you retain an agent(s) to scout, the good ones, at good prices will be gone before you
:cheers4:
Those appeared in advertisements, Strait Times classified, Propertyguru, etc, are leftovers, those already 'rejected' by the agent clients.
Based on my experience , Propertyguru will capture at least 80% of the condos available for sale or lease and ST classifieds only around 20-30%. It should be likewise for landed properties.
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