View Full Version : Beating the 40% LTV
Bought my 1st PC in 2004. Sold my PC in 2009 and bought a HDB in 2010 with a Bank Loan even though I could have paid it off in full. The thinking back then was keep some cash to purchase a 2nd PC. I have been casually looking for some time but obviously dragged my feet and missed a lot of boats!
Now rolling forward in 2012, my HDB has appreciated quite nicely. And I am looking to buy a PC again despite the ridiculous prices. (to buy or not to buy that is the question.) I just want to ability to execute when the opportunity arises.
I can afford the 40% but that would leave me absolutely no buffer in an emergency event. 20% would be much more comfortable. So I have initiated a full rememption of my HDB loan. Its probably going to be settled sometime in December. The new QE probably is not going to be an issue even though I am close to 40 years old. Just take a 25 years loan.
Hindsight being 20/20. Instead of doing a full redemption of my loan. I have been told that I could have simply just asked my Bank to remove my name from the bank loan for my HDB and get 20% LTV loan. Any bros here got experience doing that? Is that legal and even possible?
You should have asked the chap who told you to do so....
For private property, legal owner can be different person from borrower. Not sure for hdb.
ikan bilis
15-10-12, 12:58
me asked the same questions before... but got no answer... :(
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=14005&page=5#42
buttercarp
15-10-12, 13:17
Hi tigger, I asked the similar question in this thread but it was for private house.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
As long as your name is in the title deed (that means you are a joint owner or tenant in common) even if your name is not in the housing loan, you cannot escape. Means if your house is still under loan - it will mean that you are having an outstanding loan.
So I have initiated a full rememption of my HDB loan.
Uh.. Full redemption of HDB Loan?
Your money is dead money inside your HDB.
You cannot draw out equity from the HDB.
Private properties still can.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
Uh.. Full redemption of HDB Loan?
Your money is dead money inside your HDB.
You cannot draw out equity from the HDB.
Private properties still can.
Correct me if i'm wrong.
CORRECT....:(
i am in that situation...but what you can do is put a few potted plants outside your hdb flat and water them everyday...and smile at your neighbour...:doh::doh::doh:....ahhh...public housing...:D...our govt want you to life simple life in hdb flat dont play play with ur hdb flat...:banghead:
CORRECT....:(
i am in that situation...but what you can do is put a few potted plants outside your hdb flat and water them everyday...and smile at your neighbour...:doh::doh::doh:....ahhh...public housing...:D...our govt want you to life simple life in hdb flat dont play play with ur hdb flat...:banghead:
The only way out now is to buy a condo and use hdb rental to pay for installment. But some forummers think it's cutting it a bit thin . ;)
Only private allow 2 mortgagors 1 borrower
The only way out now is to buy a condo and use hdb rental to pay for installment. But some forummers think it's cutting it a bit thin . ;)
When everyone think the same way, it's not a good sign
buttercarp
15-10-12, 13:45
See fclim's reply :
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15128&page=79
I got this from IRAS:
"Financial institutions are required to conduct checks with HDB and with one or more credit bureaus on whether the buyer has an outstanding housing loan at the time of applying for a housing loan for the new property purchase. For joint buyers, if either buyer has an outstanding housing loan, the joint buyers will be considered as having an outstanding housing loan. "
Joint buyers here refers to both Joint tenants and Tenants in common i.e., anyone whose name is on the title deed.
...................................................................
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page03a_ektid10700.aspx
Only private allow 2 mortgagors 1 borrower
But would both the mortgagors be subjected to the same legal requirements for another loan? I thought as long as the name appears in the mortgage, it's as good as saying he/she is a borrower?
You should have asked the chap who told you to do so....
I also wan to know
buttercarp
15-10-12, 14:01
Btw, i think you meant Beating the 60% LTV for the title of the thread?
The loan-to-value (LTV) ratio is a financial term used by commercial lenders to express the ratio of a loan underwritten to a value of an asset purchased.
60% LTV means you can get 60% of loan.
80% LTV means you can get 80% of loan.
Thanks buttercarp, this is the most telling of all. Nothing is more certain than death and taxes. In this case the taxman.
And you are right I meant to beating the 60% LTV. It just didnt come out right on a Monday.
See fclim's reply :
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15128&page=79
http://www.iras.gov.sg/irasHome/page03a_ektid10700.aspx
propertyhans
11-12-12, 00:17
Hi tigger, I asked the similar question in this thread but it was for private house.
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
As long as your name is in the title deed (that means you are a joint owner or tenant in common) even if your name is not in the housing loan, you cannot escape. Means if your house is still under loan - it will mean that you are having an outstanding loan.
Hi buttercarp, I am very interested in your question as I am caught in same situation as you. In your mortage document, you can be listed as mortagor or borrower. I believe in your case, mortgage document states that you are borrower and both you and wife are mortagors. Have you tried to get 80% loan for your wife through any letter of offer from bank?
From what I found, the case for private is different for HDB. As in the case of HDB - all mortagors must be borrowers. So if you own HDB and you are the only borrower though both are mortgagors, don't need to think about 80% for wife.
However for private property, some banks define mortagor as owner only while the borrower is the person in charge of paying loan. So technically your wife who is the mortagor but not borrower, does not have any outstanding loan.
The LTV rule stated by MAS is
[1] Financial institutions are required to conduct checks with HDB and with one or more credit bureaus on whether the buyer has an outstanding housing loan at the time of applying for a housing loan for the new property purchase. For joint buyers, if either buyer has an outstanding housing loan, the joint buyers will be considered as having an outstanding housing loan.
....so what I am trying to say is..as long as you are not buying new property with your wife, your wife may still be able to get 80% from certain banks that do not define mortagor as borrower.
I am in the midst of talking to lawyer and banker on this. Wish me luck. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one.:cheers4:
Allthepies
11-12-12, 06:42
Hi buttercarp, I am very interested in your question as I am caught in same situation as you. In your mortage document, you can be listed as mortagor or borrower. I believe in your case, mortgage document states that you are borrower and both you and wife are mortagors. Have you tried to get 80% loan for your wife through any letter of offer from bank?
From what I found, the case for private is different for HDB. As in the case of HDB - all mortagors must be borrowers. So if you own HDB and you are the only borrower though both are mortgagors, don't need to think about 80% for wife.
However for private property, some banks define mortagor as owner only while the borrower is the person in charge of paying loan. So technically your wife who is the mortagor but not borrower, does not have any outstanding loan.
The LTV rule stated by MAS is
[1] Financial institutions are required to conduct checks with HDB and with one or more credit bureaus on whether the buyer has an outstanding housing loan at the time of applying for a housing loan for the new property purchase. For joint buyers, if either buyer has an outstanding housing loan, the joint buyers will be considered as having an outstanding housing loan.
....so what I am trying to say is..as long as you are not buying new property with your wife, your wife may still be able to get 80% from certain banks that do not define mortagor as borrower.
I am in the midst of talking to lawyer and banker on this. Wish me luck. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one.:cheers4:
Good info, pls keep us updated on ur outcome. Good luck to u!
buttercarp
11-12-12, 07:20
....so what I am trying to say is..as long as you are not buying new property with your wife, your wife may still be able to get 80% from certain banks that do not define mortagor as borrower.
I am in the midst of talking to lawyer and banker on this. Wish me luck.
Keeping my fingers crossed on this one.:cheers4:
Hi hans, yes good luck.
Do inform us of the outcome.
I think the above is true only for HDB. I got confused at that time.
I am not faced with that situation as yet but am exploring the possibilty.
Btw, although I am a mutant powerpuff, my chromosomes have not mutated so I am still XX ;) .
Haha, if KBW's subordinates are really prowling this forum... then... :gun1:
propertyhans
11-12-12, 08:19
Hi hans, yes good luck.
Do inform us of the outcome.
I think the above is true only for HDB. I got confused at that time.
I am not faced with that situation as yet but am exploring the possibilty.
Btw, although I am a mutant powerpuff, my chromosomes have not mutated so I am still XX ;) .
Oops! Apologies for the gender mixup!
Ya I hope for good news too...interestingly the lawyer I spoke to is skeptical that it will work but the young banker is quite sure it is ok....this make it really hard for me to pull the trigger...not sure if any gurus have done it before?
buttercarp
11-12-12, 08:32
Oops! Apologies for the gender mixup!
Ya I hope for good news too...interestingly the lawyer I spoke to is skeptical that it will work but the young banker is quite sure it is ok....this make it really hard for me to pull the trigger...not sure if any gurus have done it before?
Aiyo, lawyer also dunno :doh: .
Perhaps you can email MAS?
buttercarp
11-12-12, 08:41
According to our guru Secretariat - he said can.
This bro is experienced as he buys old house and rebuilds and then sell.
http://www.condosingapore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
See my post #775,
and his answer in post #778.
Then you read property agent Lin Zhiwei's reply.
He said can too.
But just bear in mind that the post was in July 2012, ie before MAS announced the new rule on housing loan.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/question/135041/hi-i-have-1-condo-now-paid-with-cpf-cash-by-me-and
Aiyo, lawyer also dunno :doh: .
Perhaps you can email MAS?
whistle blow on himself? :D
many (lawyer/bankers/brokers) on the mkt have told me it can be done if you have one PC and getting another PC. husband sole borrower for PC1, wife sole borrower for PC2. this assuming their own income can get the loan. cannot stand as guarantor.
ok.. talk too much. better go buy b4 MAS plugs this gap.
propertyhans
11-12-12, 09:05
whistle blow on himself? :D
many (lawyer/bankers/brokers) on the mkt have told me it can be done if you have one PC and getting another PC. husband sole borrower for PC1, wife sole borrower for PC2. this assuming their own income can get the loan. cannot stand as guarantor.
ok.. talk too much. better go buy b4 MAS plugs this gap.
Haha I dun think its a big gap... The number of people who falls under this category should be minimal as most buy with both as borrower. Which part of the process dictate this? Lawyer or banker?
Another newbie question is...if XYZ bank issues letter of offer based on shanhz above scenario to wife for 80% loan, do i have to wait till lawyer says ok before giving 1% booking? Is there such thing as bank retract the letter of offer and change to 60% after I have given 1% booking fee or after otp is exercised?
Appreciate your collective wisdoms on this.....
Hi buttercarp, I am very interested in your question as I am caught in same situation as you. In your mortage document, you can be listed as mortagor or borrower. I believe in your case, mortgage document states that you are borrower and both you and wife are mortagors. Have you tried to get 80% loan for your wife through any letter of offer from bank?
From what I found, the case for private is different for HDB. As in the case of HDB - all mortagors must be borrowers. So if you own HDB and you are the only borrower though both are mortgagors, don't need to think about 80% for wife.
However for private property, some banks define mortagor as owner only while the borrower is the person in charge of paying loan. So technically your wife who is the mortagor but not borrower, does not have any outstanding loan.
The LTV rule stated by MAS is
[1] Financial institutions are required to conduct checks with HDB and with one or more credit bureaus on whether the buyer has an outstanding housing loan at the time of applying for a housing loan for the new property purchase. For joint buyers, if either buyer has an outstanding housing loan, the joint buyers will be considered as having an outstanding housing loan.
....so what I am trying to say is..as long as you are not buying new property with your wife, your wife may still be able to get 80% from certain banks that do not define mortagor as borrower.
I am in the midst of talking to lawyer and banker on this. Wish me luck. Keeping my fingers crossed on this one.:cheers4:
Personal experience. Relative bought PC under my sole name as owner with him being sole borrower. He took 90% while I still have my active 90% loan ongoing. My income definitely unable to sustain that amount of loan he took. 17x my annual salary leh. The bank was an international bank.
Haha I dun think its a big gap... The number of people who falls under this category should be minimal as most buy with both as borrower. Which part of the process dictate this? Lawyer or banker?
Another newbie question is...if XYZ bank issues letter of offer based on shanhz above scenario to wife for 80% loan, do i have to wait till lawyer says ok before giving 1% booking? Is there such thing as bank retract the letter of offer and change to 60% after I have given 1% booking fee or after otp is exercised?
Appreciate your collective wisdoms on this.....
it is more of the banker. because they have to find their way to circumvent measures from MAS. as long as they approve it, lawyer is just to fill up the paperwork.
you are right that most are combined borrowers. if i'm not wrong, CPF forms part of the repayment for most pple. sole borrower means that CPF from spouse cannot be used also. we usually want a safety net so that if 1 pax out of job, the other one can use CPF to continue funding. cash paymt is obviously last resort. (this part i guess only, din verify, becoz my wife has no CPF, so not a concern for us)
i do not dare to say for sure, but i believe if the bank dare to give LO, the lawyer is merely there to structure it properly. dun take my word for it. if you are gg to do this, better make sure you *do your homework*. :D
i did consider it b4 i signed my LO but decided to play safe.. put both better. also for wife's peace of mind, else quite funny to stay in a ppty that she dun own.
another point to take note that is regardless of who takes the loan, as long as >1 owner, even if the (sole) borrower defaults, the bank can still turn to the other owner for recourse.
Personal experience. Relative bought PC under my sole name as owner with him being sole borrower. He took 90% while I still have my active 90% loan ongoing. My income definitely unable to sustain that amount of loan he took. 17x my annual salary leh. The bank was an international bank.
sounds like a long time ago (90% LTV). MAS may have tightened up since.
buttercarp
11-12-12, 11:06
Again bro mcm, you sound so familiar ;) .
Personal experience. Relative bought PC under my sole name as owner with him being sole borrower. He took 90% while I still have my active 90% loan ongoing. My income definitely unable to sustain that amount of loan he took. 17x my annual salary leh. The bank was an international bank.
http://www.condosingapore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
post #779
I know of someone whose relative bought under his name and the relative own
self is the sole borrower. in laws kind of relationship. not even
direct.
so as long someone willing to be the borrower, doesn't even have
to be related.
Again bro mcm, you sound so familiar ;) .
http://www.condosingapore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
post #779
Aiyo... some things don't have to spell out to the dot right?
Carbuncle is my disciple. The 'sifu' he referred to is me la. Isn't it obvious? Haiz. Now go google 'sifu carbuncle condosingapore' la...
buttercarp
11-12-12, 11:15
Aiyo... some things don't have to spell out to the dot right?
Carbuncle is my disciple. The 'sifu' he referred to is me la. Isn't it obvious? Haiz. Now go google 'sifu carbuncle condosingapore' la...
Ok, ok, shifu.
Then can you ask your tudi to come back, please?
Or have you become his spokesman?
Ok, ok, shifu.
Then can you ask your tudi to come back, please?
Or have you become his spokesman?
i had a long talk with him the other day. i seriously dunno what gotten into him.
he said there were a few indecent proposals via PM from this forum to him... few of them even had super nice muscular topless photo sent to him... saying want to date him and makan him...
i love pussies and mimi but i am personally ok with gay in the village as long he is the only one. i can't have too many gay disciples you see. people will start to question my orientation also.
anyway, i told him, you are still young, be careful. don't lose your life or properties to some strange muscular studs who propositioned you in the forum. better to keep a low profile and not talk too much c*ck and thrusting with folks in this forum.
i taught him so many things, he go and share so many things and learnings of his own with you all. sometimes i wonder if he is just gay or goon. maybe he just likes attention. but i believe deep deep inside he is a good person la. at least he also an MM supporter lor... don't say don't have.
since he said he gonna announce some big thing on mayan day, let's see la. he also nebber tell me what is it. plus he is busy looking for jobs these days. think his moola running out... hahahahaha oops
Personal experience. Relative bought PC under my sole name as owner with him being sole borrower. He took 90% while I still have my active 90% loan ongoing. My income definitely unable to sustain that amount of loan he took. 17x my annual salary leh. The bank was an international bank.
Bro, iras let u off the hook or u kana taxed multiple times????
Bro, iras let u off the hook or u kana taxed multiple times????
As per the court case that bro lifeline so kindly shared, from the timelines described, probably can expect the NOA to come in 2yrs time ba.... LOL
[STILL REVIEWING]
As per the court case that bro lifeline so kindly shared, from the timelines described, probably can expect the NOA to come in 2yrs time ba.... LOL
[STILL REVIEWING]
you are welcome. though those are not court cases. anyway all the 3 cases have been cleared, except the 3rd one got to pay adjusted tax, but no penalty. in the meantime, while you may still acquire more properties :D , try not to sell any without thinking first of some good reasons; though it seems that streamlining your portfolios (!) may be useful before we enter 2014 (present thoughts at this moment).
As per the court case that bro lifeline so kindly shared, from the timelines described, probably can expect the NOA to come in 2yrs time ba.... LOL
[STILL REVIEWING]
Bro, damn cheem... I catch no ball... But I like to share something lah... You can always call your friendly IRAS officer to verify if you strike toto or not..... No need to wait 2 years lar....
Bro, damn cheem... I catch no ball... But I like to share something lah... You can always call your friendly IRAS officer to verify if you strike toto or not..... No need to wait 2 years lar....
Haha thanks bro, yes I did call maybe like once every few months. Always say 'STILL REVIEWING'...
Haha thanks bro, yes I did call maybe like once every few months. Always say 'STILL REVIEWING'...
All the BEST to your review...
All the BEST to your review...
TQ TQ. I alwady prepared to pay liao. Just don't like drag out so long in ???-lalaland
propertyhans
26-12-12, 10:11
According to our guru Secretariat - he said can.
This bro is experienced as he buys old house and rebuilds and then sell.
http://www.condosingapore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15128&page=78
See my post #775,
and his answer in post #778.
Then you read property agent Lin Zhiwei's reply.
He said can too.
But just bear in mind that the post was in July 2012, ie before MAS announced the new rule on housing loan.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/question/135041/hi-i-have-1-condo-now-paid-with-cpf-cash-by-me-and
Just an update.
Managed to secure 80% loan letter of offer, accepted and loan approved using only spouse name for new condo. ( I am the sole borrower for current condo). Otp signed at lawyer's and all necessary cheque given...waiting to give next 15% cash in 1 month time and key collection in 3 month time. So I guess everything is fine...Right?
Thanks gurus!!!!
phantom_opera
26-12-12, 10:13
Siao liao lah ... Mr Khaw / MAS are now worried ... everybody starts to buy under another person's name
This is a bad trend. Could lead to family disputes in the future.
This is a bad trend. Could lead to family disputes in the future.Any policies can potentially lead to family disputes. I guess those who wants to use parents' names will find it tricky indeed. Best keep to spouse's name for 2 separate properties. Enough liao...
Some things are best left unpublished
Wow..so the property can be under the couple names but as long as loan is only under 1 name.. it is still counted as a single loan against that person?
Lol...
Shhh....this "loop hole" might be plugged if people shout too loud about it. Some forum members here are not averse to writing to authorities.........
Wow..so the property can be under the couple names but as long as loan is only under 1 name.. it is still counted as a single loan against that person?
Lol...If I'm not mistaken, the property should only be under one name for 40% LTV to be possible...
If I'm not mistaken, the property should only be under one name for 40% LTV to be possible...
U mean 80% LTV ah? Loan can be under 1 person name while the property is under joint ownership. CPF can still be used from both couples accounts to service the loan....... ssh ssh....
Actually, MAS is more concerned abt ability to service loan, so its not really perceived as a 'loophole', as long as your spouse can service 2nd 80% LTV loan on his/her income.
U mean 80% LTV ah? Loan can be under 1 person name while the property is under joint ownership. CPF can still be used from both couples accounts to service the loan....... ssh ssh....
Actually, MAS is more concerned abt ability to service loan, so its not really perceived as a 'loophole', as long as your spouse can service 2nd 80% LTV loan on his/her income.Thanks for the correction and clarification... :)
Shhh....this "loop hole" might be plugged if people shout too loud about it. Some forum members here are not averse to writing to authorities.........
Hi.. I will write this to MAS and Khaw Boon Hwa.
Thanks for the kind reminder, and I must thank the fellow forumer(s) for their information and "mentorship" that I have become a world class whistleblower.
princess_morbucks
28-12-12, 09:21
Hi.. I will write this to MAS and Khaw Boon Hwa.
Thanks for the kind reminder, and I must thank the fellow forumer(s) for their information and "mentorship" that I have become a world class whistleblower.
Good luck bro, hope you write to the correct person.
Hi.. I will write this to MAS and Khaw Boon Hwa.
Thanks for the kind reminder, and I must thank the fellow forumer(s) for their information and "mentorship" that I have become a world class whistleblower.
Beware of being blacklisted.
Beware of being blacklisted.Don't worry. He won't be blacklisted for writing to Khaw Boon Hwa.. :D
This has been going on even before the 97 crisis. Why bother be a whistle blower? Are you disadvantaged?
Just an update.
Managed to secure 80% loan letter of offer, accepted and loan approved using only spouse name for new condo. ( I am the sole borrower for current condo). Otp signed at lawyer's and all necessary cheque given...waiting to give next 15% cash in 1 month time and key collection in 3 month time. So I guess everything is fine...Right?
Thanks gurus!!!!
Hi..have the MAS or authority start looking for you with regards to above transaction?
Hi..have the MAS or authority start looking for you with regards to above transaction?
Govt agencies dont move so fast one ler. Will take weeks or months if anything.
East Lover
04-01-13, 08:39
It will cost your 2-3K to restructure the existing loan to wife, then husband can apply 80% LTV liao.
Is it a good idea? maybe good for small unit as less risk? say $800K MM, loan 80% only 640K. very comfortable, if 2.5mil house, loan 80% meansing 2 mil, huge debt, maybe good for guru, but it's too risky for my little heart to take it hahaha :scared-5:
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