View Full Version : This round of QE will not increase Singapore landed property prices:
blackjack21trader
16-09-12, 12:27
I have been investing in property market for over 20 years. I own my first property at age 23 and my first bungalow when i was 37 years old. I have realised it is a very dangerous thinking to believe that property prices will go up forever.But is that the whole story ? That property prices will never drop ?
This is proof that I have been in the property market since the 1990s:
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/blackjack21trader/real.jpg
The property index graph that many agents are showing you: the graph that keeps increasing does not take into account one important factor: REAL terms consideration.
The reason why the property index is a graph that is ever increasing is because of continual inflation in the global system after the first QE by the USA in 1965. You draw any asset class graph (eg. gold ) without considering inflation level for that matter and you will get an ever increasing price index.
The property market has both ups and down cycles. In partcular. the index graph after factoring all these will show you that property prices can decrease up to 40% !!!
In case you still do not understand completely what i m saying here's a simplified example:
One of the key points to note here is affordability: did the middle real income increased in line with property prices after considering the overall economic situation in the system ?
For example:
Case 1:1969, it costs 50cents to buy a bowl of noddle and middle income level was $1000 and property price is $20000.
Case 2:1971, it costs 80cents to buy a bowl of noddle and middle income level was $1000, and if property price is still at $20000, then property prices actually dropped in real terms in case 2.
Whenever i see this property index rises above the affordibility index, I can tell a property downturn is coming.i shall reveal in due time my own version of this graph, and you will see what i mean. and i shall reveal my method used to calculate these indices too.
Remember , no such thing as property prices increasing forever; it appears to be so because inflation level and other factors are not taken into consideration.
It is just a pure price index, not an index in REAL terms.
In my humble opinion, property prices could be falling very soon. It will be led by low sales volume first.
If you really have to get a property now for own occupation,then it is safer to go for new HDB or new Executive Condo.Since private market is only moderately controlled, the fall could be harder. And because developers building private projects have 5 years to clear stock, 2015 could be the bottom if we start counting from 2010.
Now, look at the landed prices objectively now. Many terraces in strange locations of approx 1000 sqft but rebuilt up to the max plot ratio of around 2000 over sqft .These are now asking for S$3M or more. Would buyers with budget of S$3M want to buy these, since buyers with that kind of budget are sophiscated and discerning investors? If they have S$3Million budget, they would rather build their own landed with their own design and taste on lower ratio.
"As long as you have not realised your property profits or cannot realise your property profits; THEY ARE NOT PROFITS. They are merely an illusion in your mind."
- Wise Words by BJ21T
I can also say my Nassim bungalow is worth S$100Million. But as long as there are no takers, it remains an unrealised dream. I only needs one of my neighbors to sell his at S$5 Million to sabo me.
This is what the angmo subprime called :" The Wealth Effect".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PNsw3G2lYA
The underlying fear I have is this : Do we wish to have landed all owned by "New" Singaporeans instead of locally born Singaporeans eventually in the future ?
I have no issues if they go buy up all the condos or 99 years cluster TOWN houses. BUT LANDED is a Special class of property reserved for TRUE SINGAPOREANS ONLY. Singaporeans who are willing to fight for the country. Until the new ones can prove themselves, I would reserve my landed for myself and brothers here thank you.
If landed is not an important aspect of POLITICS, why do Australia, Malaysia, India, and even some states in USA restrict buying of lands ?
One suggestion I have is to allow only second generation of "New" Singaporeans to buy landed. Or if the second generation is NOT born here, they have to wait for their locally BORN grandchildren to buy it for them. KEY WORD here is locally born of this land Or better still: TO HAVE SERVED NATIONAL SERVICE IN SAF .
The thing I AM NERVOUS ABOUT IS WHEN high property prices is NOT substainable. Substainable in the perspective of LOCALLY BORN SINGAPOREAN and with regards to their financial fairness.
It must be attainable to the local Singaporean WHOM had worked hard for their SGD and be able to buy a proper landed at the level of their next upgrade in the social life/class ladder.
IF HOWEVER, the landed prices are artifically inflated due to some person(s) who HAS no concept of the value of SGD ( IMAGINE USING PURE CASH TO BUY A PROPERTY ! ), then the landed price will reach a stage BEYOND the locally born Singaporean who are climbing this social ladder.SINCE there exist this disparity gap in Wealth level and perception of value of money between the PRC and local Singaporean.
IF local Singaporean cannot afford landed, then logically these landed will eventually ended up in the hands of "NEW" Singaporean if you know what I mean. The landed will hence be passed around among this group of people ONLY.Hence creating an unfairness in the economic system.
I hope our PAP look into new companies ( Hanyu Pinyin sounding Names ) set up with the sole intention to acquire huge plot of private landed here. Better find out who are the shareholders composition.This is very easily done by sending staff to look and record all the sign boards placed outside the reconstructing sites. Thank You.
Tread with caution.
Good luck.
神龍股俠
nil sine labore!
errr...sorry, I fail to see what correlation your title : "This round QE3 will not increase SG landed property prices" vs your rather long post. In fact, it appears rather contradictory in that the context of the post seems to indicate a deep fear that the excessive liquidity and influx of NEW singaporeans WILL indeed push up landed prices rather than NOT affect it.
Perhaps I am rather groggy this sunday am and fail to see the pun or irony intended in your post. It seems very much like a plea to the higher powers to do something about what you think is going to become a REALITY. Let me tell you why this plea will fail....in one simple sentence
ALL our ministers live in landed.....
when this bro speaks he has VERY deep meaning...like confucis...
:cheers4:
yah....catch no bola....third eye very cheem indeed...let me retreat to my bungalow by the sea and meditate.....Ommmm
Sometime I got a hangover like that too in the morning... Its no shame really
Sometime I got a hangover like that too in the morning... Its no shame really
Haha...Nothing like a good packet of indomie with a runny egg to cure my hangover.....
Indeed, i think some overestimate the value of their landed given that it's in original condition.
well said abt property price increase. Its all abt inflation hedging. Property is like all assest class like equity or commodity i.e. Gold.
With inflation assets then to be where people will park the $.
blackapple
16-09-12, 14:09
I agreed that QE3 might not increase property price.
BUT SINGAPORE GOVERNMENT recent implementation of salary increase will affect the property price. If you start to increase salary for public servant, it will affect the entire singapore. Tide will rise all boats. So I say the property price will be affected by to Government recent policy. This create more optimistic view and .....
phantom_opera
16-09-12, 16:19
Teachers / Lecturers / Doctors / Nurses will be new found army of the Empire :scared-1:
for teachers / lecturers they will buy new projects near DTL2/DTL3 MRT stations to have direct access to top primary/secondary schools, polys, SUTD, NAFA, SMU where they work in a few years time
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090923172606/starwars/images/thumb/b/b1/ImperialMilitary-BF.jpg/250px-ImperialMilitary-BF.jpg
None of them can afford landed other than the senior doctors :banghead:
:tsk-tsk:
I think he meant to have a differentiation in QE effects on landed vs non-landed. There are more conditions to buy landed properties, in the hope that they are reserved for only true blue Singaporeans who have done their part and are here for the long run.
Sorry bro, few true blue Singaporeans can truly afford landed, especially the ones that are newer and feel really inhabitable.
Indeed, i think some overestimate the value of their landed given that it's in original condition.
f i own landed i would do the same...landed owners are king...:o
Hey BJ21 why do you make a long post that doesn't support the subject header?
Btw may I know if the 21 refers to your age?
I thought the healthcare workers pay increment only applies to the lower paid ones.?
It refers to his IQ.
Hey BJ21 why do you make a long post that doesn't support the subject header?
Btw may I know if the 21 refers to your age?
Teachers / Lecturers / Doctors / Nurses will be new found army of the Empire :scared-1:
for teachers / lecturers they will buy new projects near DTL2/DTL3 MRT stations to have direct access to top primary/secondary schools, polys, SUTD, NAFA, SMU where they work in a few years time
None of them can afford landed other than the senior doctors :banghead:
:tsk-tsk:The observation is quite true, there has been an increase in buying by teachers/educators in my estate. esp the younger ones.
for landed, most of the senior teachers are staying on landed.
http://forum.shareinvestor.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=58181&d=1347592779
The observation is quite true, there has been an increase in buying by teachers/educators in my estate. esp the younger ones.
for landed, most of the senior teachers are staying on landed.
I know a few senior teachers, and they are indeed living on landed properties. One of them is aiming for second landed. But what they earn is only part of the picture. Some of them do not have time to spend the money, especially if they are at the family building stage. Plus canteen food etc. So not surprising that what they earned are saved up.
The observation is quite true, there has been an increase in buying by teachers/educators in my estate. esp the younger ones.
for landed, most of the senior teachers are staying on landed.
... teachers' estate?:D
... teachers' estate?:D
those are not senior teachers. those are retired teachers. :D
I know a few senior teachers, and they are indeed living on landed properties. One of them is aiming for second landed. But what they earn is only part of the picture. Some of them do not have time to spend the money, especially if they are at the family building stage. Plus canteen food etc. So not surprising that what they earned are saved up.
Many of their landed properties are perhaps pass down by their parents, or they bought it many donkeys years ago. And many of them could be spinster too.
actually with the ridicules price today, investing in landed property in Singapore just doesnt make anymore sense.
Imagine cost of investment at >$1000psf with rental rate of <$2psf. After factoring the interest and cost of up keeping property, what do you have left?
actually with the ridicules price today, investing in landed property in Singapore just doesnt make anymore sense.
Imagine cost of investment at >$1000psf with rental rate of <$2psf. After factoring the interest and cost of up keeping property, what do you have left?
interesting. How much cost is involved in landed for maintainence.
actually with the ridicules price today, investing in landed property in Singapore just doesnt make anymore sense.
Imagine cost of investment at >$1000psf with rental rate of <$2psf. After factoring the interest and cost of up keeping property, what do you have left?
The rental is probably not enough to spruce up the place with some minor reno every five years.
I thought landed was never for investment? For own stay, because the yields are super low and high maintenance (in terms of effort and to some extent, cash).
I thought landed was never for investment? For own stay, because the yields are super low and high maintenance (in terms of effort and to some extent, cash).
Agree....it is still more for own stay...:p
Hdb has the best rental yield and landed has the worst I think...
Aiyah...now I know why bj21 so negative on landed and post such a msg and even post this letter which probly sent to gahment....underlying motivation - talk down landed price....
You also see him trying to talk up condo prices (see his other thread on QE3 should bring up condo prices) which means he is long condo and have ZERO landed (probly want sto sell off his condo and buy landed....)
He bought a bungalow in the past as well as a landed house in coronation in 1994 for only $3m (see his pic on top of this thread) and forced to sell too early..
Now suffering from seller's remorse....
Moral of story....HOLD onto yr landed !!!
dear all ,
i feel exactly like you guys. i also think the prices are really sky high. It is time we bring those landed owners back to Planet Earth. I was twice a landed owner and really regret selling them due to financial circumstances forced upon me. I guess that is life. At the prices currently, I cannot even afford a good terrace in good location !
i strongly believe that if we stand together as one, we can make the landed prices more affordable. we should totally keep ourselves blind on all landed adverts. make no telephone enquiries to them. hopefully we will stand a chance for our next upgrade to a landed lor.
do not let the landed developers see us forumers no up la !!!
:mad:
Aiyah...now I know why bj21 so negative on landed and post such a msg and even post this letter which probly sent to gahment....underlying motivation - talk down landed price....
You also see him trying to talk up condo prices (see his other thread on QE3 should bring up condo prices) which means he is long condo and have ZERO landed (probly want sto sell off his condo and buy landed....)
He bought a bungalow in the past as well as a landed house in coronation in 1994 for only $3m (see his pic on top of this thread) and forced to sell too early..
Now suffering from seller's remorse....
Moral of story....HOLD onto yr landed !!!
Spot on bro ;)
Still remember in the 80s. President Gardens big landed, Fudu Park, Wellington Gardens all inter terrace 4xxk only.... :(
Now 4xxk can only buy the smallest MM in ulu areas. :scared-5:
Not many people remembers the Fudu Park and President Gardens names. You must be an oldie.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 13:23
Aiyah...now I know why bj21 so negative on landed and post such a msg and even post this letter which probly sent to gahment....underlying motivation - talk down landed price....
You also see him trying to talk up condo prices (see his other thread on QE3 should bring up condo prices) which means he is long condo and have ZERO landed (probly want sto sell off his condo and buy landed....)
He bought a bungalow in the past as well as a landed house in coronation in 1994 for only $3m (see his pic on top of this thread) and forced to sell too early..
Now suffering from seller's remorse....
Moral of story....HOLD onto yr landed !!!
you are wrong liao la. I now own a Nassim bungalow ok, althou only one landed only. but if I sold all my non landed, can still squeeze another 2 bungalows la.
I am warning the brothers here who are novice in landed investment not to fall for the landed trap. plot ratio had been built to the max for some landed and quantum is too high liao.
for non landed, especially CCR FH condo, there are still great room to move.
btw, my coronation bungalow was sold for SGD12Million, so no regrets la.
Believe or not is up to you lor.
WOAHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEH
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 13:29
I REPEAT, BUY CCR FH PRIVATE CONDOS !
I thought landed was never for investment? For own stay, because the yields are super low and high maintenance (in terms of effort and to some extent, cash).
I understand, but have you ever wonder why there are so many landed property listing asking for rental at <$2psf?
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 13:40
Aiyah...now I know why bj21 so negative on landed and post such a msg and even post this letter which probly sent to gahment....underlying motivation - talk down landed price....
You also see him trying to talk up condo prices (see his other thread on QE3 should bring up condo prices) which means he is long condo and have ZERO landed (probly want sto sell off his condo and buy landed....)
He bought a bungalow in the past as well as a landed house in coronation in 1994 for only $3m (see his pic on top of this thread) and forced to sell too early..
Now suffering from seller's remorse....
Moral of story....HOLD onto yr landed !!!
btw, bro equaliser could know one of my relatives la, from the way he managed to remember this old post.
let your humble but handsome bro enlighten you la... I bluffed my relatives I sold off my coronation property last time at S$4Million la...this is to prevent them from borrowing money from me hor. dun tell my dumb relatives hor, brother equaliser...
And my current Nassim bungalow was actually owned by one of my relatives la...I am the hiddened buyer that bought this property at a bargain from him la.
All my relatives have no idea...
WOAHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHh
you are wrong liao la. I now own a Nassim bungalow ok, althou only one landed only. but if I sold all my non landed, can still squeeze another 2 bungalows la.
I am warning the brothers here who are novice in landed investment not to fall for the landed trap. plot ratio had been built to the max for some landed and quantum is too high liao.
for non landed, especially CCR FH condo, there are still great room to move.
btw, my coronation bungalow was sold for SGD12Million, so no regrets la.
Believe or not is up to you lor.
WOAHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEH
Errr..sori ah bro...but somehow your story dun add up leh...
you posted this in Mar this year which sez you sold off both landed..
dear all ,
i feel exactly like you guys. i also think the prices are really sky high. It is time we bring those landed owners back to Planet Earth. I was twice a landed owner and really regret selling them due to financial circumstances forced upon me. I guess that is life. At the prices currently, I cannot even afford a good terrace in good location !
i strongly believe that if we stand together as one, we can make the landed prices more affordable. we should totally keep ourselves blind on all landed adverts. make no telephone enquiries to them. hopefully we will stand a chance for our next upgrade to a landed lor.
do not let the landed developers see us forumers no up la !!!
:mad:
you mean you bought yr coronation bungalow at $3m ONLY in 1994 (according to yr lawyers letter) and sold for $12m !!! Wah...u solid man
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s297/blackjack21trader/real.jpg
Huh? now you say you sold for $4m to blur yr relatives....so which is it ???? $4m or $12m
Its ok, dunno any of yr relatives so you can tell the truth here. Please be careful ah...don't dig the hole deeper....
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 13:49
that is why I said, landed prices high or not now ? sigh yo...READ AGAIN MY POSTS ABOVE la...you so lazy to read the full details and just jump to conclusions.
sori lah...headache already from so much info and plot too cheem for me to comprehend.....dun hv third eye like u.
yr relatives must be very hiong for u to go to so much trouble..yet got relative so good to you-can sell you nassim bungalow at good price...
Won't trouble you any more lah...go and enjoy yr nassim bungalow..can write very good fiction novels in such a nice big house...
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 13:57
Well, if you guys choose to believe property agents, by all means go ahead and buy landed lor. I got nothing to loose. I am telling you guys,
1200 sqft land bulit up to greater than 3000sqft can buy or not? use your common sense la.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:03
I am saying that landed could be headed for a bubble due to artificial price inflation by new buyers in the landed market.
A landed should be a landed: that is: a garden, small pool, acceptable parking spaces, and built up to land ratio should be reasonable.
You dun find the landed now looks like apartments meh ?
A terrace of bulit up 3000sqft but land area of less than 1200sqft is asking for more than S$3Million now. Now, add that twice and you get S$6Million. Then, you compare the price of a 20 years Semi-d and see for yourself.
That is all I can say. Noone can stop you guys from buying or not buying. I am merely sharing with you guys my thoughts from my experience.
Good Luck.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:11
ALSO , BEFORE I post this, I know landed owners here sure not happy with me one. But they forgotten one important thing: They are competing with newly built landed by developers as I mentioned.
If this trend continues on, it is not a matter of whether I can afford or not. It will be a matter if the old landed owners can sell or not.
Landed quantum must be affordable. Or else the old landed owners see new landed developers earn money while they held on to their old lemons.
simple question....if you think landed has no potential and is a bubble about to burst and freehold CCR apt is the way to go, why don't you sell off your Nassim bungalow and load up on CCR condos instead ???
Lead by example bro....
Well, if you guys choose to believe property agents, by all means go ahead and buy landed lor. I got nothing to loose. I am telling you guys,
1200 sqft land bulit up to greater than 3000sqft can buy or not? use your common sense la.
what common sense you refering to? with 1200sqft built up to >3000sqft cannot meh?? Please enlighten...:o I'm learning about landed.
In my opinion, there cannot be bubble just in a certain type of property. The pricing will adjust by itself but it take some times...but not like you say as bubble will burst when it cannot grow anymore :D
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:20
simple question....if you think landed has no potential and is a bubble about to burst and freehold CCR apt is the way to go, why don't you sell off your Nassim bungalow and load up on CCR condos instead ???
Lead by example bro....
I never say landed no potential. I am saying the rate the Price increases is not healthy la.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:21
what common sense you refering to? with 1200sqft built up to >3000sqft cannot meh?? Please enlighten...:o I'm learning about landed.
In my opinion, there cannot be bubble just in a certain type of property. The pricing will adjust by itself but it take some times...but not like you say as bubble will burst when it cannot grow anymore :D
First, you must understand the kind of buyers buying these type of landed and their mentality.
I never say landed no potential. I am saying the rate the Price increases is not healthy la.
ok, let me rephrase my question ...
Since you think landed has lower potential and are advocating people to buy freehold CCR apt instead, why don't you sell off your Nassim bungalow and load up on CCR condos instead ???
walk the talk bro
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:27
ok, let me rephrase my question ...
Since you think landed has lower potential and are advocating people to buy freehold CCR apt instead, why don't you sell off your Nassim bungalow and load up on CCR condos instead ???
walk the talk bro
like that I am not hedging my risks. I already owned several condos liao.
btw, bro equaliser could know one of my relatives la, from the way he managed to remember this old post.
let your humble but handsome bro enlighten you la... I bluffed my relatives I sold off my coronation property last time at S$4Million la...this is to prevent them from borrowing money from me hor. dun tell my dumb relatives hor, brother equaliser...
And my current Nassim bungalow was actually owned by one of my relatives la...I am the hiddened buyer that bought this property at a bargain from him la.
All my relatives have no idea...
WOAHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHEHEHHh
So you're staying in Nassim bungalow for a few years already?
BTW, what do you mean by hiddened buyer? Is it still under your name?
like that I am not hedging my risks. I already owned several condos liao.
So now you are not so sure and are acknowledging the possibility that landed could perform better than CCR condos ?
I REPEAT, BUY CCR FH PRIVATE CONDOS !
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:33
well, looks like I am no match for brothers machine guns here. so have to engage my trance to communicate and bring down a Skyperson to explain liao:
OMMMMMMMMMMMM...ARRRRRARRARARRAHHHH.....HIPPPPEE:
SkyPerson says:
Last time a short while ago, back in 2010:
2 OCR condos can exchange for 1 decent landed.
Now 2012, 2 RCR condos also cannot buy one terrace.
In 2010, a decent professional can make a jump to landed easily by just selling his 2 condos.
Now, a decent professional will jump right into the gap between the condo and landed.
Why is it so? Who is making THIS GAP so wide?
Good Luck.
神龙股侠。
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:34
So you're staying in Nassim bungalow for a few years already?
BTW, what do you mean by hiddened buyer? Is it still under your name?
aiyo..company name la.
you can also say that now ppl start to realise that landed is under valued for a long time...:p
that doesn't mean that it is forming a bubble. :2cents:
well, looks like I am no match for brothers machine guns here. so have to engage my trance to communicate and bring down a Skyperson to explain liao:
OMMMMMMMMMMMM...ARRRRRARRARARRAHHHH.....HIPPPPEE:
SkyPerson says:
Last time a short while ago, back in 2010:
2 OCR condos can exchange for 1 decent landed.
Now 2012, 2 RCR condos also cannot buy one terrace.
In 2010, a decent professional can make a jump to landed easily by just selling his 2 condos.
Now, a decent professional will jump right into the gap between the condo and landed.
Why is it so? Who is making THIS GAP so wide?
Good Luck.
神龙股侠。
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:37
you can also say that now ppl start to realise that landed is under valued for a long time...:p
that doesn't mean that it is forming a bubble. :2cents:
I REPEAT, BUY CCR FREEHOLD CONDO !
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:40
Isn't this amazing..now I know who are the landed owners in this forum liao la...WOAHAHAHHEHHEHEHEHHEH
aiyo..company name la.
I see. How big is your Nassim bungalow?
I saw many landed with koi pond and nice landscaping. Do you have a koi pond?
And do you need to spend a lot of time maintaining them?
Now I sound like YT asking so many questions.:ashamed1:
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:44
I see. How big is your Nassim bungalow?
I saw many landed with koi pond and nice landscaping. Do you have a koi pond?
And do you need to spend a lot of time maintaining them?
Now I sound like YT asking so many questions.:ashamed1:
Dun bluff la.. I know who u r ok.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:47
I see. How big is your Nassim bungalow?
I saw many landed with koi pond and nice landscaping. Do you have a koi pond?
And do you need to spend a lot of time maintaining them?
Now I sound like YT asking so many questions.:ashamed1:
Let me remind u, if u forgot who u r... You every morning go botanic gardens right? Sometimes 2 persons, sometimes 4 persons too no? Hehehebs
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:48
R u not amazed how come I know who u r, PN? U think only certain class of ppl in this land knows u only? Whaoaheheheheheheeheheheheheh
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:50
Or today ur maid got wash ur B.......B.... Brand.car or not ? U complained to someone your maid did not wash ur car properly in botanic gardens, tiobo? Heheheheheheheheheheh
Let me remind u, if u forgot who u r... You every morning go botanic gardens right? Sometimes 2 persons, sometimes 4 persons too no? Hehehebs
You mean I work there with a team of gardeners?
No. I know nuts about gardening.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:52
Act blurr har, PN ? . Woahahahhahahahahahahah
you can also say that now ppl start to realise that landed is under valued for a long time...:p
that doesn't mean that it is forming a bubble. :2cents:
>$1000psf to buy, <$2 psf to rent. How can that be under value?
At the current price, it simply doesnt make any economic sense to invest in landed property for rental anymore and it might be better to be a tenant if you want to enjoy landed living as there are no shortage of supply in the market. Plus as competition heats up, average family size shrinking, desperate landed owner will be more willing to negotiate just to get someone to help pay their mortgage.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:55
>$1000psf to buy, <$2 psf to rent. How can that be under value?
At the current price, it simply doesnt make any economic sense to invest in landed property for rental anymore and it might be better to be a tenant if you want to enjoy landed living as there are no shortage of supply in the market. Plus as competition heats up, average family size shrinking, desperate landed owner will be more willing to negotiate just to get someone to help pay their mortgage.
Aiya... They won't believe u one la, bro ringo33.
I see. How big is your Nassim bungalow?
I saw many landed with koi pond and nice landscaping. Do you have a koi pond?
And do you need to spend a lot of time maintaining them?
Now I sound like YT asking so many questions.:ashamed1:
Hi. Give me a job if you are hiring. Thanks.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:56
You mean I work there with a team of gardeners?
No. I know nuts about gardening.
NOPE. I mean u stayed near GALLOP LANE. Dun misunderstand hor... I dun use ip addressing I also not garment people hor.
Hi. Give me a job if you are hiring. Thanks.
How to give u a job? whole day in the net reading CondoSingapore..
>$1000psf to buy, <$2 psf to rent. How can that be under value?
At the current price, it simply doesnt make any economic sense to invest in landed property for rental anymore and it might be better to be a tenant if you want to enjoy landed living as there are no shortage of supply in the market. Plus as competition heats up, average family size shrinking, desperate landed owner will be more willing to negotiate just to get someone to help pay their mortgage.
landed >1000psf say price high then what about OCR condo >1200psf?? which one more worthwhile?
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 14:58
How to give u a job? whole day in the net reading CondoSingapore..
Halor... I tok only bosses do that :(
Here are the facts according to what I have gathered so far....
Used to own two landed but sold them and said he regretted it.
Now say no regret...got good price but price has been changed to bluff relatives who are after him to borrow money
On the other hand, now owns 1 nassim bungalow which was bought at a good price from a relative but hiddened in co name
Owns several condos
Now strongly advocates others to buy freehold CCR condos...
What do you think :confused:
NOPE. I mean u stayed near GALLOP LANE. Dun misunderstand hor... I dun use ip addressing I also not garment people hor.
Don't give me a big hat leh. My head too small to wear.
I'll be blinded wearing it. That's dangerous. :scared-1:
BTW, where is Gallop Lane? :D
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 15:07
Here are the facts according to what I have gathered so far....
Used to own two landed but sold them and said he regretted it.
Now say no regret...got good price but price has been changed to bluff relatives who are after him to borrow money
On the other hand, now owns 1 nassim bungalow which was bought at a good price from a relative but hiddened in co name
Owns several condos
Now strongly advocates others to buy freehold CCR condos...
What do you think :confused:
What u think is an illusion. It is what u do that matters.
What u think is an illusion. It is what u do that matters.
What I would do in your position is to persuade more people to buy up more CCR condos so that i can rebalance my portfolio and try to sell off assets which are too heavily weighted at the moment....
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 15:11
My message is clear: BE Careful When buying landed. You have to think of who is the next buyer that will take your landed next time u wanna sell.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 15:12
What I would do in your position is to persuade more people to buy up more CCR condos so that i can rebalance my portfolio and try to sell off assets which are too heavily weighted at the moment....
very smart...young man, you have a great future ahead of you :)
very smart...young man, you have a great future ahead of you :)
Kum sia...but not much future prospects. Am actually retiree with a bad back. Poor mobility...thats why spend all my time in front of computer visiting forum.....when up for it will get my 'chaffeur' to drive me to showflat or visit sites.
landed >1000psf say price high then what about OCR condo >1200psf?? which one more worthwhile?
why arent you comparing OCR landed >1000psf vs OCR condo at 1000psf?
why arent you comparing OCR landed >1000psf vs OCR condo at 1000psf?
what i mean is if ppl still buying OCR at 1200psf, then to me landed at 1000psf is still ok. and for myself, think more worthwhile to go for landed.
of course there are landed which are much lesser than 1000psf and there are of course also OCR condo lesser than 1000psf...:o if the price is comparable in the same district, then, why not landed? :cheers4:
just my opinion. :2cents:
I am saying that landed could be headed for a bubble due to artificial price inflation by new buyers in the landed market.
A landed should be a landed: that is: a garden, small pool, acceptable parking spaces, and built up to land ratio should be reasonable.
You dun find the landed now looks like apartments meh ?
A terrace of bulit up 3000sqft but land area of less than 1200sqft is asking for more than S$3Million now. Now, add that twice and you get S$6Million. Then, you compare the price of a 20 years Semi-d and see for yourself.
That is all I can say. Noone can stop you guys from buying or not buying. I am merely sharing with you guys my thoughts from my experience.
Good Luck.
I very junior, so don't mean to be smart. Just asking
most unts are 1615sqft for inter terrace. Build up about 3000 sqft.
can buy ? For less then 2.5 mil reasonable ?
those you dscrible 1200 sounds like dome lelong units in happy ave. Build up 3000 sqft.
what i mean is if ppl still buying OCR at 1200psf, then to me landed at 1000psf is still ok. and for myself, think more worthwhile to go for landed.
of course there are landed which are much lesser than 1000psf and there are of course also OCR condo lesser than 1000psf...:o if the price is comparable in the same district, then, why not landed? :cheers4:
just my opinion. :2cents:
I will still pick condo for investment purely because it is easier to find tenant, better yield, and lower maintenance cost.
Also finding buyer for landed property is also difficult because of the big quantum. For a $2 to 3m landed property (which is very ordinary terrace in obscure location) , a buyer with existing mortgage loan will have to pay $800k to $1.2m as down payment in cash or CPF, and this is excluding cost of renovation etc.
How many people you know have this kind of money or are willing to spend on a boxed up terrace with no land.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 16:10
I will still pick condo for investment purely because it is easier to find tenant, better yield, and lower maintenance cost.
Also finding buyer for landed property is also difficult because of the big quantum. For a $2 to 3m landed property (which is very ordinary terrace in obscure location) , a buyer with existing mortgage loan will have to pay $800k to $1.2m as down payment in cash or CPF, and this is excluding cost of renovation etc.
How many people you know have this kind of money or are willing to spend on a boxed up terrace with no land.
This is my fear, u say it so well that I m now about to say it more clearly that there will be borderline buyers that over stretched themselves to buy landed.
This is my fear, u say it so well that I m now about to say it more clearly that there will be borderline buyers that over stretched themselves to buy landed.
Hahaha, pardon me, your fear is valid, but it could happen to CCR condo also, any type of property...:D
Now I'm beginning to feel that you are already biased in one direction, anyway good discussion :p
I will still pick condo for investment purely because it is easier to find tenant, better yield, and lower maintenance cost.
Also finding buyer for landed property is also difficult because of the big quantum. For a $2 to 3m landed property (which is very ordinary terrace in obscure location) , a buyer with existing mortgage loan will have to pay $800k to $1.2m as down payment in cash or CPF, and this is excluding cost of renovation etc.
How many people you know have this kind of money or are willing to spend on a boxed up terrace with no land.
Ok, wrong frequency...:D I meant it more for own stay. Diff opinion. Some would buy condo, rent out condo and stay in hdb, but I think some will rather rent out hdb and enjoy their stay in the condo themselves...:)
This is my fear, u say it so well that I m now about to say it more clearly that there will be borderline buyers that over stretched themselves to buy landed.
as there will be borderline buyers who will overstretch to buy FH CCR condos (based on strong recommendation of the third-eye) instead of OCR condos EC or resale HDB....
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 16:41
Hahaha, pardon me, your fear is valid, but it could happen to CCR condo also, any type of property...:D
Now I'm beginning to feel that you are already biased in one direction, anyway good discussion :p
Well, u just hurt my feelings saying that :(
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 16:42
as there will be borderline buyers who will overstretch to buy FH CCR condos (based on strong recommendation of the third-eye) instead of OCR condos EC or resale HDB....
Pls la.. I recommend ppl will listen meh... I m merely replicating what is happening in the market over here to share.
Pls la.. I recommend ppl will listen meh... I m merely replicating what is happening in the market over here to share.
You have vision of the third eye mah plus own a big nassim bungalow + several condos, who dare to ignore the advice of BJ21 ? :D
I see. How big is your Nassim bungalow?
I saw many landed with koi pond and nice landscaping. Do you have a koi pond?
And do you need to spend a lot of time maintaining them?
Now I sound like YT asking so many questions.:ashamed1:
Bro BJ21, you haven't answer my question leh. :o
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 17:07
Bro BJ21, you haven't answer my question leh. :o
u know very well every plot in Nassim is different, you ask me this question to zoom in on me. u think i stupid meh...WOAHAHAHAHHAHAHHEHHEHHEHEHHEH
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 17:11
Bro BJ21, you haven't answer my question leh. :o
next time u see someone that looks like my avatar coming out of the bungalow...that's me lor...heheheheheheh
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 17:12
but take note i no stupid hor.. i will know who is watching me from where hor..hehehehhehehe
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 17:14
remember i got 4 eyes ? heiheiheihei....not spectacles hor....my car got panorama camera that scan 360 degree everytime I drive there hor...so I will really know who u are....heiheiehiehieh
Hey BJ21,
Do you know that landed ppty in hk fetches in excess of HKD 1 billion?
You can't say it's now a bubble here in Singapore.
I totally believe landed (not terrace) is still undervalued in Singapore.
Our country's size, demographics similar to HK.
blackjack21trader
17-09-12, 18:26
Th
Hey BJ21,
Do you know that landed ppty in hk fetches in excess of HKD 1 billion?
You can't say it's now a bubble here in Singapore.
I totally believe landed (not terrace) is still undervalued in Singapore.
Our country's size, demographics similar to HK.
Sigh yo bro localite arh.. Last time I say mass market condo rise, private condo no change also got many bro dun believe me lah. now I say this, it is understandable la. read my starter thread carefully hor.
Hey BJ21,
Do you know that landed ppty in hk fetches in excess of HKD 1 billion?
You can't say it's now a bubble here in Singapore.
totally believe landed (not terrace) is still undervalued in Singapore.
Our country's size, demographics similar to HK.
This is a very dangerous way of justifying your investment. This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap.
This is a very dangerous way of justifying your investment. This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap.
Hmmm...you seem to be more accepting of a comparison where CCR condos are concerned...so its ok to compare NY to SG but not HK to SG
.
Fromt thread titled "Are our CCR over priced? Compare NY to Singapore"
if you have been to NY you will know that Manhattan is extreme huge as compare to the Singapore CBD, so it will be difficult to compare apple to apple as certain street in Manhattan can be extremely costly while others not
If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still be lagging behind.
Woahahahahahah...Now I know who are the ones heavily vested in CCR condos....:scared-3: And are waiting anxiously on the sidelines to pick up landed..
Isn't this amazing..now I know who are the landed owners in this forum liao la...WOAHAHAHHEHHEHEHEHHEH
IMHO the situation now is that all assets will rise in comparison to money.
QE unlimited has arrived......
Hmmm...you seem to be more accepting of a comparison where CCR condos are concerned...so its ok to compare NY to SG but not HK to SG
.
Fromt thread titled "Are our CCR over priced? Compare NY to Singapore"
Woahahahahahah...Now I know who are the ones heavily vested in CCR condos....:scared-3: And are waiting anxiously on the sidelines to pick up landed..
In my earlier comparison, we were comparing apartment within NY CBD vs Singapore CBD. Both are apartment located in similar business district targeting at similar working class PMET. We aint comparing to Singapore CBD apartment prices to the biggest and most luxury penthouse in NY.
As for Localite, he is comparing Singapore semi-d landed property with HK record breaking bungalow own by billionaires.
See the difference? Or do you still insist that all landed are the same?
In my earlier comparison, we were comparing apartment within NY CBD vs Singapore CBD. Both are apartment located in similar business district targeting at similar working class PMET. We aint comparing to Singapore CBD apartment prices to the biggest and most luxury penthouse in NY.
As for Localite, he is comparing Singapore semi-d landed property with HK record breaking bungalow own by billionaires.
See the difference? Or do you still insist that all landed are the same?
Hmmmm...so in your opinion, comparing NY CBD apt prices to SG CBD apt prices is NOT only a valid but very safe way of justifying your investment in SG CBD apts?
I quote the last part of your statment in that thread:
"If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still be lagging behind."
Great logic...to quote someone..."This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap."
I think we all know where yours and BJ21's motivations are in this thread and you should stop before the hole you are digging becomes much bigger....:D careful now...don't trip and fall...
Hmmmm...so in your opinion, comparing NY CBD apt prices to SG CBD apt prices is NOT only a valid but very safe way of justifying your investment in SG CBD apts?
I quote the last part of your statment in that thread:
"If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still be lagging behind."
Great logic...to quote someone..."This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap."
I think we all know where yours and BJ21's motivations are in this thread and you should stop before the hole you are digging becomes much bigger....:D careful now...don't trip and fall...
I believe the discussion in the other thread was about how NY apartments is becoming relatively cheaper as compared to Singapore apartment. what I was saying is that Manhattan is really big and it is difficult to compare apple to apple. What I did highlight was that if we compare the MOST EXPENSIVE Singapore CBD apartment vs, NY most expensive apartment. Singapore is still cheaper. I believe it should be in the range of $4000psf for Singapore and $6500psf for apartment in NY.
As you can see, I am only comparing the MOST EXPENSIVE apartment in both cities, I didn't compare general CBD or CCR apartments with the MOST EXPENSIVE from NY.
As for your case, you are trying to argue the Semi D properties in Singapore is comparable to the most expensive GCB class landed in HK.
see the difference?
Sorry, but I double examined Localite's post with a fine tooth comb and there is no mention of semi-D. He/She only said (not terrace).
Hey BJ21,
Do you know that landed ppty in hk fetches in excess of HKD 1 billion?
You can't say it's now a bubble here in Singapore.
I totally believe landed (not terrace) is still undervalued in Singapore.
Our country's size, demographics similar to HK.
Altho' I am not him/her and cannot tell you what was the intention but if he/she means the most expensive landed in SG as a comparison, isn't it similar to what you are comparing.
Anyway, the point is that you warned him that it is a very dangerous way of justifying his/her investment in landed.
What I am asking you (which you have so expertly tried to draw attention away from) is whether the comparisons you are using to justify prices in SG apts is in any way safer than what Localite is comparing?
If not, then we have a classic case of pot calling the kettle black...
Oopss..I told you to be careful....wait , let me get you a rope....
Pleaaaase stop...otherwise my rope not long enough anymore.....
Sorry, but I double examined Localite's post with a fine tooth comb and there is no mention of semi-D. He/She only said (not terrace).
Altho' I am not him/her and cannot tell you what was the intention but if he/she means the most expensive landed in SG as a comparison, isn't it similar to what you are comparing.
Anyway, the point is that you warned him that it is a very dangerous way of justifying his/her investment in landed.
What I am asking you (which you have so expertly tried to draw attention away from) is whether the comparisons you are using to justify prices in SG apts is in any way safer than what Localite is comparing?
If not, then we have a classic case of pot calling the kettle black...
Oopss..I told you to be careful....wait , let me get you a rope....
Pleaaaase stop...otherwise my rope not long enough anymore.....
Perhaps your eyes are blinded by the fact that you own landed property (my guess) and you felt offended because I say that using a HKD1 BILLION GCBs to justify for potential price appreciation of Singapore landed property (such as semi d detached, or GCB) is dangerous.
If you think otherwise, perhaps you could tell us why instead of misquoting or paraphrasing.
While you are at in, perhaps you could also share with us why landed property at >$1000psf and renting out at <$2psf is a good investment proposition?
There is no need to act like a computer hero of threatening me lah. see until sian liao.
Perhaps your eyes are blinded by the fact that you own landed property (my guess) and you felt offended because I say that using a HKD1 BILLION GCBs to justify for potential price appreciation of Singapore landed property (such as semi d detached, or GCB) is dangerous.
If you think otherwise, perhaps you could tell us why instead of misquoting or paraphrasing.
While you are at in, perhaps you could also share with us why landed property at >$1000psf and renting out at <$2psf is a good investment proposition?
There is no need to act like a computer hero of threatening me lah. see until sian liao.
Oh dear...did I touch a raw nerve just because I quoted facts...I have never threatened you at all but merely pleaded with you to stop before you find yourself being revealed in a bad light which I think I am already too late to stop.
Unfortunately, when bullies find that they cannot win an argument, they will take certain actions :
1st action - they will STOP replying in context to what was asked or stated in the previous posts. Why? because they have no valid answer to logically counter what was said and they know they will only get more embarrassed if they continue.
2nd action - they will try to change subject quickly by challenging the opponent to answer some sweeping remark OR try to get the opponent worked up by throwing in an emotionally charged statement.
3rd action - If all else fails, they will try to turn the tables and make people think that the opponent is a coward or 'yellow' just because that opponent is matured enough to not engage in such low level fighting.
If you want my views on landed, I will be glad to discuss them with you in a civil logical manner but only after you answer my question posed in my previous post and highlighted in bold below.
What I am asking you (which you have so expertly tried to draw attention away from) is whether the comparisons you are using to justify prices in SG apts is in any way safer than what Localite is comparing?
Oh dear...did I touch a raw nerve just because I quoted facts...I have never threatened you at all but merely pleaded with you to stop before you find yourself being revealed in a bad light which I think I am already too late to stop.
Unfortunately, when bullies find that they cannot win an argument, they will take certain actions :
1st action - they will STOP replying in context to what was asked or stated in the previous posts. Why? because they have no valid answer to logically counter what was said and they know they will only get more embarrassed if they continue.
2nd action - they will try to change subject quickly by challenging the opponent to answer some sweeping remark OR try to get the opponent worked up by throwing in an emotionally charged statement.
3rd action - If all else fails, they will try to turn the tables and make people think that the opponent is a coward or 'yellow' just because that opponent is matured enough to not engage in such low level fighting.
If you want my views on landed, I will be glad to discuss them with you in a civil logical manner but only after you answer my question posed in my previous post and highlighted in bold below.
What I am asking you (which you have so expertly tried to draw attention away from) is whether the comparisons you are using to justify prices in SG apts is in any way safer than what Localite is comparing?
Appreciate if you could please stop giving yourself so much credit lah. Credits will come to you when you deserve it. There is no need to keep praising yourself and forcing it down your own throat.
If you are serious about discussing FACTS, lets start this over again.
This is what Localite wrote
Do you know that landed ppty in hk fetches in excess of HKD 1 billion?
You can't say it's now a bubble here in Singapore.
totally believe landed (not terrace) is still undervalued in Singapore.
Our country's size, demographics similar to HK
Before we touch on my reply to his post, let me ask you if you agree with his/her argument that landed property in Singapore is undervalued because hk landed property fetches HKD 1 billion?
Sorry but you misunderstand. I have never said whether I agreed or sided with his statement nor am I here to defend his statement but what I am questioning is whether your statement (1) below is appropriate when you have used a similar basis (2) in comparison of SG apts with another country?
It just seems strange that you can label someone else's thinking dangerous when you yourself practice it in a similar context. I was merely giving you the opportunity to explain yourself in this respect which upto now I still have not got a clear answer.
Now that everything has been laid out, perhaps we can come back to the real question at hand...do you think that your statement in justifying investments by comparing SG vs NY apts is in any way less dangerous than comparing landed in SG vs HK?
1 . Quote
"This is a very dangerous way of justifying your investment. This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap. "
2. Quote
"As you can see, I am only comparing the MOST EXPENSIVE apartment in both cities,"
"If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still be lagging behind."
Sorry but you misunderstand. I have never said whether I agreed or sided with his statement nor am I here to defend his statement but what I am questioning is whether your statement (1) below is appropriate when you have used a similar basis (2) in comparison of SG apts with another country?
It just seems strange that you can label someone else's thinking dangerous when you yourself practice it in a similar context. I was merely giving you the opportunity to explain yourself in this respect which upto now I still have not got a clear answer.
Now that everything has been laid out, perhaps we can come back to the real question at hand...do you think that your statement in justifying investments by comparing SG vs NY apts is in any way less dangerous than comparing landed in SG vs HK?
1 . Quote
"This is a very dangerous way of justifying your investment. This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap. "
2. Quote
"As you can see, I am only comparing the MOST EXPENSIVE apartment in both cities,"
"If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still be lagging behind."
So let me get this straight.
1) The whole purpose of your participation in this thread is all about Ringo33, it is NOT about what Ringo33 wrote in this this thread.? Y or N?
2) For that, may I presume that Ringo33 must have somehow got one your sensitive nerves with what he wrote, perhaps here, perhaps other threads. Otherwise why would someone bother to scan through Ringo33 old threads just to discuss about something that is totally unrelated.
3) I am actually quite puzzled about what exactly you are trying to prove here?
In the other thread Ringo33 was saying that, if you compared the most expensive apartment in Manhattan, vs the most expensive CBD condo in Singapore, the latter is still more expensive. And he even when as far as saying "Singapore will still be lagging behind"
Ringo33 didnt try to justify that because NY apartment are more expensive, Singapore CBD apartment is undervalued. Perhaps you might have misread what was written?
did I touch a raw nerve just because I quoted facts
I am not sure what facts you are talking about, but I am pretty sure if there are indeed any facts, it must be from someone you quoted not you.
Firstly , I have to say your question avoidance technique is quite good and you trying to make it into a personal vendetta is actually kinda amusing.
Sorry to disappoint but as Donald Trump says, its nothing personal just business.
I have been trained to critique and evaluate since young so call it a force of habit.
Why puzzled? Shouldn't we question and evaluate whatever is being written in forums. Its all part of learning as well as understanding human psyche. So when one forumer post something which seems at odds with what he/she posts in another thread, shouldn"t you question it?
Anyway, now that you have 'explained yourself', so be it...let it rest and let the forumers come to their own conclusion.
I have to go for physiotherapy now.......chio nurse beckons....
Have a good dinner...peace bro.
Firstly , I have to say your question avoidance technique is quite good and you trying to make it into a personal vendetta is actually kinda amusing.
Sorry to disappoint but as Donald Trump says, its nothing personal just business.
I have been trained to critique and evaluate since young so call it a force of habit.
Why puzzled? Shouldn't we question and evaluate whatever is being written in forums. Its all part of learning as well as understanding human psyche. So when one forumer post something which seems at odds with what he/she posts in another thread, shouldn"t you question it?
Anyway, now that you have 'explained yourself', so be it...let it rest and let the forumers come to their own conclusion.
I have to go for physiotherapy now.......chio nurse beckons....
Have a good dinner...peace bro.
apology accepted.
full of shit
apology accepted.
full of shit
I was told trolls feed on shit.
I was told trolls feed on shit.
It takes a troll to know a troll!
Becos no troll will ever tell anyone they eat shit.
Happy eating!
It takes a troll to know a troll!
Becos no troll will ever tell anyone they eat shit.
Happy eating!
the quality of your posts and contribution speaks for itself.
enuf said.
I was told trolls feed on shit.
Sigh...I did plea with you to stop but I fear the rope has run out. Insinuating that people are trolls and that they feed on manure is not the way to go...
Take a leaf from bro bj21 page and exit with some decorum and grace...my respect for bro bj21 has at least increased significantly.
Bro BJ21...I salute you !
Halor.... Thanks to equaliser and PN for exposing my backside la.. Woahahahahah
Bro pinball and equalizer,
Cut the poor guy some slack. He has a fragile ego and needs to feel self impt and also to be seen to be winning all the time. Push him too far and he will get emotionally distraught and think that people are personally targetting him.
anybody want to buy KL and Jakarta landed properties? compared to Singapore, HK and NY properties, they are cheaper wether you compare average-to-average, most expensive-to-most expensive,psf-to-psf.
so being cheaper, does that make KL and Jakarta a value buy?
can teach me whether cheaper is the same as undervalue?
anybody want to buy KL and Jakarta landed properties? compared to Singapore, HK and NY properties, they are cheaper wether you compare average-to-average, most expensive-to-most expensive,psf-to-psf.
so does that make KL and Jakarta a value buy?
be careful ah...afterwards bro Ringo33 will blind us with his dazzing high quality posts and say it is very dangerous to make such assumptions.
Oh...sori hah....supposed to cut him some slack..but then my post cmi according to him so doesn't really matter.
the quality of your posts and contribution speaks for itself.
enuf said.
Sigh...I did plea with you to stop but I fear the rope has run out. Insinuating that people are trolls and that they feed on manure is not the way to go...
Take a leaf from bro bj21 page and exit with some decorum and grace...my respect for bro bj21 has at least increased significantly.
Bro BJ21...I salute you !
Bro pinball and equalizer,
Cut the poor guy some slack. He has a fragile ego and needs to feel self impt and also to be seen to be winning all the time. Push him too far and he will get emotionally distraught and think that people are personally targetting him.
It is really kind of funny to see how someone could so quickly jump in to address Pinball and Equalizer as BROTHER. Its like they have known each other for many years.
May I know when was the last time you and Pinball or EQ have had a discussion in this forum? Perhaps never?
Like i said, your apology is accepted, you dont need any further justification.
It is really kind of funny to see how someone could so quickly jump in to address Pinball and Equalizer as BROTHER. Its like they have known each other for many years.
........
remember the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
also remember, there is no forever friend and there is no forever enemy.
It is really kind of funny to see how someone could so quickly jump in to address Pinball and Equalizer as BROTHER. Its like they have known each other for many years.
May I know when was the last time you and Pinball or EQ have had a discussion in this forum? Perhaps never?
Like i said, your apology is accepted, you dont need any further justification.
I do indeed sincerely apologise to you and this forum for what I have driven you to become. I bow in shame. Thank you for the acceptance.
I do indeed sincerely apologise to you and this forum for what I have driven you to become. I bow in shame. Thank you for the acceptance.
I think it is very clear that your action is driven by that fact that you are offended by other forummer's comment that landed property prices in Singapore is not as UNDERVALUE as what you and fellow landed property owners might have thought.
Instead of countering the argument with facts and numbers to explain why Singapore landed property is undervalue, you went on to dig my post from other thread and start questioning me about NY apartment prices etc without actually realized that you have unknowingly contradicted your own self and trip on your own words.
Perhaps this might be due to your over zealousness that causes you to misread what i have said, or perhaps its just simply your personal character to want to jump into conclusion with seriously giving a thought of what you read.
Like I said before, you can go on to speak highly of yourself, seek "alliances" but at the end of the day it is the facts that count, not the mudslinging.
Once again, if you have a different view of what I have written in this thread, I would warmly engage you and your BROTHERS in a healthy discussion within the context of property.
You win.....
I lose.....
Landed is so overvalued and is an inferior investment asset as compared to condos.
Again I apologise for not taking into account your fragile ego and mental state. Sumimasen....
mr tan, you are full of shit.
I think it is very clear that your action is driven by that fact that you are offended by other forummer's comment that landed property prices in Singapore is not as UNDERVALUE as what you and fellow landed property owners might have thought.
Instead of countering the argument with facts and numbers to explain why Singapore landed property is undervalue, you went on to dig my post from other thread and start questioning me about NY apartment prices etc without actually realized that you have unknowingly contradicted your own self and trip on your own words.
Perhaps this might be due to your over zealousness that causes you to misread what i have said, or perhaps its just simply your personal character to want to jump into conclusion with seriously giving a thought of what you read.
Like I said before, you can go on to speak highly of yourself, seek "alliances" but at the end of the day it is the facts that count, not the mudslinging.
Once again, if you have a different view of what I have written in this thread, I would warmly engage you and your BROTHERS in a healthy discussion within the context of property.
mr tan, you are full of shit.
http://forums.watchuseek.com/attachments/f2/800582d1345791012-invicta-better-quality-than-rolex-submariner-dont-feed-troll.jpeg
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 11:39
aiyo..brothers and sisters arh... we are all here to share information and progress our knowledge in property investment la. So there is really no right or wrong.Every debate here is a hiddened treasure to me.
It really depends on how one accept the other's argument and the executive of your action after reading the information here.
I must say, both sides got very good quality stuffs la. From the way you guys put forth your logic, I know that you are not just some secretaries or novice lurking in this forum.
I respect both sides, whether they are from from brother Ringo or brother equaliser. In fact, I must admit since the first day I joined this forum, I have been learning many new things and sometimes very paiseh also when some brothers pointed out the flaw in my logics. But I always improved after every single debate.
You guys must understand the way I try to communicate my info to you cannot be too ex...ex....ex.....exposed like a naked...naked...naked.....finger la. So there is really no right or wrong in my threads, I am just sharing my information with you guys and want to learn from you too.
But I must take a stand, right? as in all good argument la, so:
I still maintain landed prices are at the peak now.
HEHEHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHHEH
http://hannekekoop.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/troll1.jpgRingo33
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 11:46
I must say, both sides got very good quality stuffs la. From the way you guys put forth your logic, I know that you are not just some secretaries or novice lurking in this forum.
err.....on second thought, the sentence above will be ammended to read:
I must say, both sides got very good quality stuffs la. From the childish way you guys put forth your logic, I know that you must not be more than 18 years old la.
aiyo..brothers and sisters arh... we are all here to share information and progress our knowledge in property investment la. So there is really no right or wrong.Every debate here is a hiddened treasure to me.
It really depends on how one accept the other's argument and the executive of your action after reading the information here.
I must say, both sides got very good quality stuffs la. From the way you guys put forth your logic, I know that you are not just some secretaries or novice lurking in this forum.
I respect both sides, whether they are from from brother Ringo or brother equaliser. In fact, I must admit since the first day I joined this forum, I have been learning many new things and sometimes very paiseh also when some brothers pointed out the flaw in my logics. But I always improved after every single debate.
You guys must understand the way I try to communicate my info to you cannot be too ex...ex....ex.....exposed like a naked...naked...naked.....finger la. So there is really no right or wrong in my threads, I am just sharing my information with you guys and want to learn from you too.
But I must take a stand, right? as in all good argument la, so:
I still maintain landed prices are at the peak now.
HEHEHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHHEH
Haha.. I respect you bro BJ21 but respectfully disagree....
1. Compare supply of condos vs supply of landed coming on-stream
2. From the demand side, Govtis slowing down intake of FT and PRs and wants to increase new Citizens
4. Landed price may seem high but that is due to the way it is priced (on land area) rather than built-up...if you compare built-up which is the real livable space, most landed actually make more economic sense.
3. Old landed can always be renovated or A&A to like new or even torn down and reconstructed whereas not so easy for the facade and common areas of condos.
This is a very dangerous way of justifying your investment. This is like saying a lambo in Singapore cost $1.5m and COE at $90k is cheap.
Ringo is merely saying comparing valuation based on size and demographics is a dangerous way. but his example of lambo and COE is a non-example.
if lambo cost $1.5m, then COE at $90k is cheap.
if china car cost $50k, the COE at $90k is expensive.
.....
If you compared the most expensive apartment in NY vs Singapore, I am believe Singapore will still belagging behind.
Based on factors what do you believe that Singapore will still be lagging behind? You have not given your reasons yet for your belief.
to proper-t:
according to ringo, comparing valuation based on size and demographics is dangerous.
however, he hasn't state his reasoning why singapore's most expensive apt will still be lagging behind NY's most expensive apt.
so i dont see how you can make the leap:
"Hmmmm...so in your opinion, comparing NY CBD apt prices to SG CBD apt prices is NOT only a valid but very safe way of justifying your investment in SG CBD apts?".
now if ringo has used the same factors, size and demographics to explain why Singapore most expensive apt is undervalued as compared to NY most expensive apt, then it would be reasonable to crucify him why these same factors cannot be used to compare HK and Singapore landed.
perhaps there are some earlier posts by ringo that i missed?
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 12:11
wahhh brother equaliser, I like ur beautiful england sentence construction la. very elegant hor ...heheheheh
also note I never say landed will crash, I stated very clearly if left unattended at the present state of affairs, a terrace could very well beyond the reach of even the upper middle class here. This is very unhealthy as I already explained in the start of the thread.
also beg to differ on several of your points , pls see:
Haha.. I respect you bro BJ21 but respectfully disagree....
1. Compare supply of condos vs supply of landed coming on-stream
Indeed landed supply is limited. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE into consideration the QUALITY of these landed also. Quality as whether is it worth your money as the NEXT buyers who buy from you may be more discerning than you especially so if it is a bear market. In a bull market, your landed facing a bin center also people say it is gold la.
2. From the demand side, Govtis slowing down intake of FT and PRs and wants to increase new Citizens
You forgot something I stated in my thread. That the NEWLY CONVERTED Singaporean also can buy landed hor. You are going to compete against them. That is why I ask brothers and sisters here, at this rate of landed appreciation, is it substainable not ?
4. Landed price may seem high but that is due to the way it is priced (on land area) rather than built-up...if you compare built-up which is the real livable space, most landed actually make more economic sense.
It is not about psf. It is about quantum and bank valuation and eventually affordability. Note that you are at the mercy of bank valuation in a bear market.
3. Old landed can always be renovated or A&A to like new or even torn down and reconstructed whereas not so easy for the facade and common areas of condos.
Agree totally. But old landed also can be stuck for many merry years. That is why I warned about the new terrace house of 1000sqft land selling over S$3Million. Do you see the sabo-bomb coming towards the old landed if this trend continues on?
Good Luck.
神龙股侠。
are you selling your bungulow now? :D peak le...dont sell now wait for when? your bungulow should be able to convert into a few units in CCR. :2cents:
aiyo..brothers and sisters arh... we are all here to share information and progress our knowledge in property investment la. So there is really no right or wrong.Every debate here is a hiddened treasure to me.
It really depends on how one accept the other's argument and the executive of your action after reading the information here.
I must say, both sides got very good quality stuffs la. From the way you guys put forth your logic, I know that you are not just some secretaries or novice lurking in this forum.
I respect both sides, whether they are from from brother Ringo or brother equaliser. In fact, I must admit since the first day I joined this forum, I have been learning many new things and sometimes very paiseh also when some brothers pointed out the flaw in my logics. But I always improved after every single debate.
You guys must understand the way I try to communicate my info to you cannot be too ex...ex....ex.....exposed like a naked...naked...naked.....finger la. So there is really no right or wrong in my threads, I am just sharing my information with you guys and want to learn from you too.
But I must take a stand, right? as in all good argument la, so:
I still maintain landed prices are at the peak now.
HEHEHHEHEHEHEHHEHEHEHHEHEHHEH
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 12:22
You see, you guys do not see my fear. What is this fear about and may I reiterate my post to remind you again:
The thing I AM NERVOUS ABOUT IS WHEN high property prices is NOT substainable. Substainable in the perspective of LOCALLY BORN SINGAPOREAN and with regards to their financial fairness.
It must be attainable to the local Singaporean WHOM had worked hard for their SGD and be able to buy a proper landed at the level of their next upgrade in the social life/class ladder.
IF HOWEVER, the landed prices are artifically inflated due to some person(s) who HAS no concept of the value of SGD ( IMAGINE USING PURE CASH TO BUY A PROPERTY ! ), then the landed price will reach a stage BEYOND the locally born Singaporean who are climbing this social ladder.SINCE there exist this disparity gap in Wealth level and perception of value of money between the PRC and local Singaporean.
IF local Singaporean cannot afford landed, then logically these landed will eventually ended up in the hands of "NEW" Singaporean if you know what I mean. The landed will hence be passed around among this group of people ONLY.Hence creating an unfairness in the economic system.
If say the landed quantum of a new terrace built up 3000sqft on 1000sqft land is selling at ever increasing price of more than S$3Million and this continues on for several years, what do you think will happen to your next generation in 10 years time? If say your next generation is a professional like a doctor, can they afford even a new terrace. And say, you ask them to buy old terrace of 30-40 years old and rebuild, what do you think the costs of construction will be 10 years later at the present rate of the going ?
Do you naively think your humble brother here will be able to unload his bungalow next time 10 years later? You see your humble brother will be faced with the dilemma of sell at market price no takers, OR to sell at my own price dunno will regret or not later.
See MY FEAR NOW?
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 12:25
are you selling your bungulow now? :D peak le...dont sell now wait for when? your bungulow should be able to convert into a few units in CCR. :2cents:
you are not paying attention in class la. read my thread start again. WOHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAH
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 12:32
btw, let me enlighten you guys hor.
A bungalow can take up to 7 years to market and finally unload.
The current lower tier prices of the landed like terraces is affecting the prices of this group of property and I believe it can take even longer to unload next time.
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 12:36
Another area you guys have overlook or are too young to know, is that :
because we have been in QE for so many years, the property valuation never did once revalue for 8 years already.
please note that the higher your LOAN QUANTUM, the MORE YOU ARE AT THE MERCY OF BANK REVALUATION OF PROPERTY.
It may or may not happen, but better be safe than sorry.
Another area you guys have overlook or are too young to know, is that :
because we have been in QE for so many years, the property valuation never did once revalue for 8 years already.
please note that the higher your LOAN QUANTUM, the MORE YOU ARE AT THE MERCY OF BANK REVALUATION OF PROPERTY.
It may or may not happen, but better be safe than sorry.
I think it is safe to say that majority of the landed buyer over the last 2 to 3 years are taking 80% loan to finance their purchase.
also note I never say landed will crash, I stated very clearly if left unattended at the present state of affairs, a terrace could very well beyond the reach of even the upper middle class here.
So you are saying that landed will not crash but still got room to grow ?
This is very unhealthy as I already explained in the start of the thread.
It may be unhealthy but when market crash, which segment will be affected more, the one with a lot of supply or the ones with limited supply.
also beg to differ on several of your points , pls see:
Good Luck.
神龙股侠。
Nah lah, its not the from but the substance that counts. Thank you for yr compliment and also for sharing your wisdom although some people here say my posts cmi. Here are my points in green.
1. Compare supply of condos vs supply of landed coming on-stream
Indeed landed supply is limited. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE into consideration the QUALITY of these landed also. Quality as whether is it worth your money as the NEXT buyers who buy from you may be more discerning than you especially so if it is a bear market. In a bull market, your landed facing a bin center also people say it is gold la.
But I am comparing agst condos. Likewise, condo also got gd quality and bad quality. We should get back to the point of this thread. We are not taking about a bear mkt scenario but whether QE3 will positively impact landed. With excess liquidity in the mkt, which segment you think got better prospects. One where there is a lot of supply coming on-stream or one where supply is limited (don't talk abt gd or bad qlty as it exists in every ppty segment)
2. From the demand side, Govtis slowing down intake of FT and PRs and wants to increase new Citizens
You forgot something I stated in my thread. That the NEWLY CONVERTED Singaporean also can buy landed hor. You are going to compete against them. That is why I ask brothers and sisters here, at this rate of landed appreciation, is it substainable not ?
the thread title is not whether landed pice is sustainable but whether QE3 will or will not increase landed price. Your post above already contradict leh. With more liquidity in the mkt and more new citizens, won't landed price be positively impacted by QE3? with less FT and less PRs, won't the sale/rental for condos be negatively impacted. Even if there is more liquidity in the mkt, these FT or PR won't be around here to spend since govt don't allow them in.
4. Landed price may seem high but that is due to the way it is priced (on land area) rather than built-up...if you compare built-up which is the real livable space, most landed actually make more economic sense.
It is not about psf. It is about quantum and bank valuation and eventually affordability. Note that you are at the mercy of bank valuation in a bear market.
CCR condo also v high quantum ah ! I spoke to many bank friends and they are in fact more willing to lend for landed than for condo/apt. I can tell you most landed owners also own apt or condo as investment ppty (sound familiar ah bro BJ21). They stay in landed & rent out apt. If crunch comes, which do they they will sell first to support their mthly payments. Maybe I should ask you directly, if (touchwood) a crisis comes, which will you sell first , yr nassim bungalow or yr condo apts?
3. Old landed can always be renovated or A&A to like new or even torn down and reconstructed whereas not so easy for the facade and common areas of condos.
Agree totally. But old landed also can be stuck for many merry years. That is why I warned about the new terrace house of 1000sqft land selling over S$3Million. Do you see the sabo-bomb coming towards the old landed if this trend continues on?
Why sabo? If you bought an old landed, the land value will always be there. Most people buy landed nowadays for land value and don't heck care abt the structure. It can be a lao pok hse with leaking roof and they don't care. In fact, they prefer these because easier to tear down and build. when developer runs out of land, they will be eyeing all these plots of land for the land value and not for the structure. For old condo, it becomes harder and harded to get good rental. Yah, you can also dream for enbloc but even you have said to be careful as some will never be enbloc. For landed, the land value wll always be ther.
+1 :cheers4: :2cents:
Nah lah, its not the from but the substance that counts. Thank you for yr compliment and also for sharing your wisdom although some people here say my posts cmi. Here are my points in green.
1. Compare supply of condos vs supply of landed coming on-stream
Indeed landed supply is limited. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE into consideration the QUALITY of these landed also. Quality as whether is it worth your money as the NEXT buyers who buy from you may be more discerning than you especially so if it is a bear market. In a bull market, your landed facing a bin center also people say it is gold la.
But I am comparing agst condos. Likewise, condo also got gd quality and bad quality. We should get back to the point of this thread. We are not taking about a bear mkt scenario but whether QE3 will positively impact landed. With excess liquidity in the mkt, which segment you think got better prospects. One where there is a lot of supply coming on-stream or one where supply is limited (don't talk abt gd or bad qlty as it exists in every ppty segment)
2. From the demand side, Govtis slowing down intake of FT and PRs and wants to increase new Citizens
You forgot something I stated in my thread. That the NEWLY CONVERTED Singaporean also can buy landed hor. You are going to compete against them. That is why I ask brothers and sisters here, at this rate of landed appreciation, is it substainable not ?
the thread title is not whether landed pice is sustainable but whether QE3 will or will not increase landed price. Your post above already contradict leh. With more liquidity in the mkt and more new citizens, won't landed price be positively impacted by QE3? with less FT and less PRs, won't the sale/rental for condos be negatively impacted. Even if there is more liquidity in the mkt, these FT or PR won't be around here to spend since govt don't allow them in.
4. Landed price may seem high but that is due to the way it is priced (on land area) rather than built-up...if you compare built-up which is the real livable space, most landed actually make more economic sense.
It is not about psf. It is about quantum and bank valuation and eventually affordability. Note that you are at the mercy of bank valuation in a bear market.
CCR condo also v high quantum ah ! I spoke to many bank friends and they are in fact more willing to lend for landed than for condo/apt. I can tell you most landed owners also own apt or condo as investment ppty (sound familiar ah bro BJ21). They stay in landed & rent out apt. If crunch comes, which do they they will sell first to support their mthly payments. Maybe I should ask you directly, if (touchwood) a crisis comes, which will you sell first , yr nassim bungalow or yr condo apts?
3. Old landed can always be renovated or A&A to like new or even torn down and reconstructed whereas not so easy for the facade and common areas of condos.
Agree totally. But old landed also can be stuck for many merry years. That is why I warned about the new terrace house of 1000sqft land selling over S$3Million. Do you see the sabo-bomb coming towards the old landed if this trend continues on?
Why sabo? If you bought an old landed, the land value will always be there. Most people buy landed nowadays for land value and don't heck care abt the structure. It can be a lao pok hse with leaking roof and they don't care. In fact, they prefer these because easier to tear down and build. when developer runs out of land, they will be eyeing all these plots of land for the land value and not for the structure. For old condo, it becomes harder and harded to get good rental. Yah, you can also dream for enbloc but even you have said to be careful as some will never be enbloc. For landed, the land value wll always be ther.
......
Why sabo? If you bought an old landed, the land value will always be there. Most people buy landed nowadays for land value and don't heck care abt the structure. It can be a lao pok hse with leaking roof and they don't care. In fact, they prefer these because easier to tear down and build. when developer runs out of land, they will be eyeing all these plots of land for the land value and not for the structure. For old condo, it becomes harder and harded to get good rental. Yah, you can also dream for enbloc but even you have said to be careful as some will never be enbloc. For landed, the land value wll always be ther.
i am unclear about certain points.
1)are you comparing LH condo to FH landed?
2)why do you need to mention "For old condo, it becomes harder and harded to get good rental."? is the rental situation different from old landed?
are you comparing LH condo to FH landed?
No...FH condo vs FH landed. You buy an old freehold condo (no view) and a old FH landed. Which you think will have more prospects NOW assuming both in same area? Which one you think will be more positively affected by QE3?
Firstly, old condo probly hv to compete with all the new condo coming up for rental. Yes, FH condo mebbe got enbloc chance (if PR not maxed) but as it gets older...harder and harder to get good rental
. You can no longer increase built-up, cannot change yr facade, windows etc and MC have to spend a lot to do up common areas. developers also smarter nowadays - rely more on GLS than enbloc for their land supply because more strghtfwd and no need to deal with all the enbloc rules.
Old landed...v ltd new supply plus hardly any GLS for landed. You have flexibility to build up to max PR/height. If not happy with design , can always change down the road. If no cash now, never mind. Just hold.Yrs down the road, the land value will still be there and may even increase as landed developers run out of land to develop.
For rental...old house you can easily renovate to new condition any time you want. For old condo, you can do up for interior but for exterior and common fac (unless you control the MC and MC got a lot of $$$), its is very difficult to improve. when potential tenant come and view, they will be put off by yr run dwn common areas. Its worst if there is a brand new condo next door.
For die-hard house renters, they actually don't have much choice esply if they want a certain area. There is very little competition since very few houses up for rent any way. Most are owner occupied.
when it comes to valuing a purchase, here's what i take into account:
- location
- plot ratio as a fraction to surroundings
- price per plot ratio
- price per sq ft of unit
- facility cost to build psf excl built up apartments
- avg ratio of psf as a fractio to surrounding psf
this applies to landed, or apartments in manhattan or anywhere else
ccr apartments in paris, london and manhattan are priced between $6000-8000psm in their local currency terms - e.g euro or usd. most good ones are prewar retrofits and don't have the luxury of space as in singapore's ccr condos. then again, neither is singapore as dynamic or cosmopolitan as those cities!
the quality of your posts and contribution speaks for itself.
enuf said.
Since I have already contributed.. would luv to hear your quality views and comments?
Nah lah, its not the form but the substance that counts. Thank you for yr compliment and also for sharing your wisdom although some people here say my posts cmi. Here are my points in green.
1. Compare supply of condos vs supply of landed coming on-stream
Indeed landed supply is limited. BUT YOU HAVE TO TAKE into consideration the QUALITY of these landed also. Quality as whether is it worth your money as the NEXT buyers who buy from you may be more discerning than you especially so if it is a bear market. In a bull market, your landed facing a bin center also people say it is gold la.
But I am comparing agst condos. Likewise, condo also got gd quality and bad quality. We should get back to the point of this thread. We are not taking about a bear mkt scenario but whether QE3 will positively impact landed. With excess liquidity in the mkt, which segment you think got better prospects. One where there is a lot of supply coming on-stream or one where supply is limited (don't talk abt gd or bad qlty as it exists in every ppty segment)
2. From the demand side, Govtis slowing down intake of FT and PRs and wants to increase new Citizens
You forgot something I stated in my thread. That the NEWLY CONVERTED Singaporean also can buy landed hor. You are going to compete against them. That is why I ask brothers and sisters here, at this rate of landed appreciation, is it substainable not ?
the thread title is not whether landed pice is sustainable but whether QE3 will or will not increase landed price. Your post above already contradict leh. With more liquidity in the mkt and more new citizens, won't landed price be positively impacted by QE3? with less FT and less PRs, won't the sale/rental for condos be negatively impacted. Even if there is more liquidity in the mkt, these FT or PR won't be around here to spend since govt don't allow them in.
4. Landed price may seem high but that is due to the way it is priced (on land area) rather than built-up...if you compare built-up which is the real livable space, most landed actually make more economic sense.
It is not about psf. It is about quantum and bank valuation and eventually affordability. Note that you are at the mercy of bank valuation in a bear market.
CCR condo also v high quantum ah ! I spoke to many bank friends and they are in fact more willing to lend for landed than for condo/apt. I can tell you most landed owners also own apt or condo as investment ppty (sound familiar ah bro BJ21). They stay in landed & rent out apt. If crunch comes, which do they they will sell first to support their mthly payments. Maybe I should ask you directly, if (touchwood) a crisis comes, which will you sell first , yr nassim bungalow or yr condo apts?
3. Old landed can always be renovated or A&A to like new or even torn down and reconstructed whereas not so easy for the facade and common areas of condos.
Agree totally. But old landed also can be stuck for many merry years. That is why I warned about the new terrace house of 1000sqft land selling over S$3Million. Do you see the sabo-bomb coming towards the old landed if this trend continues on?
Why sabo? If you bought an old landed, the land value will always be there. Most people buy landed nowadays for land value and don't heck care abt the structure. It can be a lao pok hse with leaking roof and they don't care. In fact, they prefer these because easier to tear down and build. when developer runs out of land, they will be eyeing all these plots of land for the land value and not for the structure. For old condo, it becomes harder and harded to get good rental. Yah, you can also dream for enbloc but even you have said to be careful as some will never be enbloc. For landed, the land value wll always be ther.
Since I have already contributed.. would luv to hear your quality views and comments?
Let me tell you why your argument is flawed.
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
And even if they do go straight into landed property, most likely they will be in the class where they will buy upscale GCBs instead of run of the mill landed property.
3) I can understand what you bring up OLD landed instead of landed in general because it is only through buying old landed that can give yourself the positive feeling that you are making money. e.g buy a old landed from a retiree for $1.5m, spend 500k on A&A and sell it for $2.2m, you tell the world you make $700k. right?
4) I am not sure if you understand the quantum effect in property. Many time people like to justify that landed psf is so low as compared to condo psf, so landed is cheap. Do you hear any condo investors arguing that because MM psf is so high and their 3 to 4 bedder condo are undervalue.
Have you not realized that for landed property majority the floor space you pay for are hardly utilized and they are there for feel good effect. It is perfectly fine if you really own it, or if it is generating healthy rental yield, but you have to take out a 30 to 40 years mortgage to finance it and make a miserable <$2psf rental, then you will have to start questioning yourself if it really make economical sense.
blackjack21trader
19-09-12, 18:18
Let me tell you why your argument is flawed.
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
And even if they do go straight into landed property, most likely they will be in the class where they will buy upscale GCBs instead of run of the mill landed property.
3) I can understand what you bring up OLD landed instead of landed in general because it is only through buying old landed that can give yourself the positive feeling that you are making money. e.g buy a old landed from a retiree for $1.5m, spend 500k on A&A and sell it for $2.2m, you tell the world you make $700k. right?
4) I am not sure if you understand the quantum effect in property. Many time people like to justify that landed psf is so low as compared to condo psf, so landed is cheap. Do you hear any condo investors arguing that because MM psf is so high and their 3 to 4 bedder condo are undervalue.
Have you not realized that for landed property majority the floor space you pay for are hardly utilized and they are there for feel good effect. It is perfectly fine if you really own it, or if it is generating healthy rental yield, but you have to take out a 30 to 40 years mortgage to finance it and make a miserable <$2psf rental, then you will have to start questioning yourself if it really make economical sense.
wow...well said, brother Ringo33 ! Esp the highlighted paragraph, that is something new and I did not see it that way before. Thanks for your enlightening !
Let me tell you why your argument is flawed.
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
So pray tell where is the demand going to come from for condos. Go examine yr population stats. FT/PRs? Organic population growth? Govt has already mentioned that they will be moderating FT/PRs intake but wants to focus on increasing new citizens. What does this mean when translated to the current pool of buyers for condos vs the current pool of buyers for landed?
2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
Ahem..aren't you forgetting about the govt tough stance to moderate in Emplt Passes and PRs. At least the pool of buyers available for landed is increasing whilst the pool of buyers for condos/apts is shrinking. Govt studies have shown that they need an additonal 25K to 35K new citizens each yr. If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
And even if they do go straight into landed property, most likely they will be in the class where they will buy upscale GCBs instead of run of the mill landed property.
Fail to grasp yr logic here..if GCB prices go up (which constitute part of the landed segment) doesn't it mean that the landed segment index also goes up?
3) I can understand what you bring up OLD landed instead of landed in general because it is only through buying old landed that can give yourself the positive feeling that you are making money. e.g buy a old landed from a retiree for $1.5m, spend 500k on A&A and sell it for $2.2m, you tell the world you make $700k. right?
No I would sell it for $2.7m and make $700K. Too much MM units have made yr arithmetric mousey too. No, I am touching on the potential advantages of buying a landed as opposed to a condo. Since we all have to hold a property for 4yrs to avoid SSD. Assuming you buy a new landed vs new condo. In 4 yrs time when you have to sell, if yr house is looking a bit jaded, you can easily jazz it up COMPLETELY whereas if the common areas +facilities in yr condo are looking run down, you do not have such an option to do so unless you run the whole MC. When potential buyers come to view yr apt, they don't just look at yr unit, they view the facilities and common surroundings as well plus not forgetting the spanking new condo next door due to the massive supply.
4) I am not sure if you understand the quantum effect in property. Many time people like to justify that landed psf is so low as compared to condo psf, so landed is cheap. Do you hear any condo investors arguing that because MM psf is so high and their 3 to 4 bedder condo are undervalue.
I would agree with you if the quantum for condos were as low back in the gd ol days but this is here and now. HDB flats are going for abv 1M, gd MM units are also hovering ard there. To get a 3-4 bedrm of mebbe 1200sf, how much do you hv to pay nowadays? 2-3mil? If you compare the living space of 1200sf (which often includes large balconies, planterbox, baywindows and bomb shelter), doesn't it make sense to pay a bit more to get the lving space of a landed?
Have you not realized that for landed property majority the floor space you pay for are hardly utilized and they are there for feel good effect. It is perfectly fine if you really own it, or if it is generating healthy rental yield, but you have to take out a 30 to 40 years mortgage to finance it and make a miserable <$2psf rental, then you will have to start questioning yourself if it really make economical sense.
Oh yeah, huge balconies, planter boxes, baywindows are all very well utilized in condos too rite? Space for space and dollar for dollar, it does make sense to go for landed.
As i said b4, wats with the fixation on rental yield. Most landed buyers buy for owner occupation, the so-called landed address, and the space comfort. You ask BJ21 whether he stays at his nassim bungalow or his condos?
As I have also said before, many landed owners probly buy investment ppty such as condos too for the rental yield but LIVE in the landed. When the crunch comes, the roof they are living under will be the LAST asset they will sell. I posed the question to BJ21 but hv still not got any answer.
TQ for posting. I now know the "power" quality of yr answers
Agreed with BJ11. At the rate the landed segment is moving, it will come a stage when the situation is as the chinese saying goes ' Have Price but no Market'. Simply because the asking price of the landed property is too high and the demand has reduced to a level where there are few takers simply because not many Singaporean can afford and willing to meet the asking price. Not sure though whether this level has been reached at the current moment. But my guess is it shouldn't be too far off. I believe also that the future state of landed properties in Singapore is that the land size per unit will get ever smaller with increasing built up area - the trend of MM in landed! As further informatio, I gather from asking agents that 3 out of 4 new detached bungalow at Greenleaf with land size 4,300 to 4,600 sq ft had been sold. The price is ~$2,400 psf to $2,500 psf! Not sure whether this info is accurate though.:scared-4:
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
So pray tell where is the demand going to come from for condos. Go examine yr population stats. FT/PRs? Organic population growth? Govt has already mentioned that they will be moderating FT/PRs intake but wants to focus on increasing new citizens. What does this mean when translated to the current pool of buyers for condos vs the current pool of buyers for landed?
2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
Ahem..aren't you forgetting about the govt tough stance to moderate in Emplt Passes and PRs. At least the pool of buyers available for landed is increasing whilst the pool of buyers for condos/apts is shrinking. Govt studies have shown that they need an additonal 25K to 35K new citizens each yr. If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
I would like to point out that condos buyers are not limited to FT/PRs/EPs.
foreigners not working, not residing also can buy condos.
Agreed with BJ11. At the rate the landed segment is moving, it will come a stage when the situation is as the chinese saying goes ' Have Price but no Market'. Simply because the asking price of the landed property is too high and the demand has reduced to a level where there are few takers simply because not many Singaporean can afford and willing to meet the asking price. Not sure though whether this level has been reached at the current moment. But my guess is it shouldn't be too far off. I believe also that the future state of landed properties in Singapore is that the land size per unit will get ever smaller with increasing built up area - the trend of MM in landed! As further informatio, I gather from asking agents that 3 out of 4 new detached bungalow at Greenleaf with land size 4,300 to 4,600 sq ft had been sold. The price is ~$2,400 psf to $2,500 psf! Not sure whether this info is accurate though.:scared-4:
If you look at historical price charts (sori ah, chart a bit old but just to put the pt across), prices tend to move in tandem across all segments. You should ask yrself the question. If this 'hv price no mkt' effect is gonna happen for landed, don't you think it will also happen for other segments as well? Its the same kinda argument that BJ21 (no offence bro) is promoting by saying that QE will not have an impact on landed but will have an impact on condos...
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_UyHoQ8JGnDM/TSLqKf1q9CI/AAAAAAAAASk/IzrmOFQ25Hs/s1600/srpichart.gif
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
So pray tell where is the demand going to come from for condos. Go examine yr population stats. FT/PRs? Organic population growth? Govt has already mentioned that they will be moderating FT/PRs intake but wants to focus on increasing new citizens. What does this mean when translated to the current pool of buyers for condos vs the current pool of buyers for landed?
2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
Ahem..aren't you forgetting about the govt tough stance to moderate in Emplt Passes and PRs. At least the pool of buyers available for landed is increasing whilst the pool of buyers for condos/apts is shrinking. Govt studies have shown that they need an additonal 25K to 35K new citizens each yr. If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
I would like to point out that condos buyers are not limited to FT/PRs/EPs.
foreigners not working, not residing also can buy condos.
How many of Non residents actually buy ppty in SG ? Are the nos enough to make a difference to counter for all the FT/PRs/EPs which are going to be rejected by the govt?
Its the same kinda argument that BJ21 (no offence bro) is promoting by saying that QE will not have an impact on landed but will have an impact on condos...
well perhaps BJ21 mean to say that, if hot money comes in, also cannot buy landed, whereas can buy condos.
Anybody heard of funds buying landed? like funds buying Cascadia, the Grange collection (the condo that is not prestigious enough).
How many of Non residents actually buy ppty in SG ? Are the nos enough to make a difference to counter for all the FT/PRs/EPs which are going to be rejected by the govt?
No data. just want to point out thats all. the whole world can buy singapore condos. only singapore citizens can buy landed.
well perhaps BJ21 mean to say that, if hot money comes in, also cannot buy landed, whereas can buy condos.
Anybody heard of funds buying landed? like funds buying Cascadia, the Grange collection (the condo that is not prestigious enough).
were the funds the main factor for the resilience in prices during the previous easing efforts? I don't think so. Most analysts are of the opinion that the push comes from localised demand and the growth in population. Unless you can show figures to show me that funds actually have a significant impact on property prices, I remain unconvinced.
No data. just want to point out thats all. the whole world can buy singapore condos. only singapore citizens can buy landed.
Yes, but govt has already spelt out they want to grow SG citizens with advisors providing figures of 25K to 35K p.a. whereas I am not getting any feel from you of the potential of worldwide demand. I also remain unconvinced until you have conclusive numbers to show me otherwise.
If you look at historical price charts (sori ah, chart a bit old but just to put the pt across), prices tend to move in tandem across all segments. You should ask yrself the question. If this 'hv price no mkt' effect is gonna happen for landed, don't you think it will also happen for other segments as well? Its the same kinda argument that BJ21 (no offence bro) is promoting by saying that QE will not have an impact on landed but will have an impact on condos...
As I have mentioned before, the chart which tracks landed property might not reflect the actual price gain of landed property purely because it does not factor in A&A or rebuilding cost.
If you track the price movement of landed property, you will also noticed price movement of semi d and terrace houses always seem to lag behind detached houses both on the up and down trend. Perhaps this is a good indication that investors who make money from landed are those in the detached housing segment.
Yes, but govt has already spelt out they want to grow SG citizens with advisors providing figures of 25K to 35K p.a. whereas I am not getting any feel from you of the potential of worldwide demand. I also remain unconvinced until you have conclusive numbers to show me otherwise.
From 2007 to 2010, Singapore's intake of new citizens ranged from over 17,334 to 20,513. Last year (2011) saw 15,777 additions to the citizen population.
can you provide the source which the government says they are targeting at 25K to 35K new citizen pa?
beside talking about new citizens, have you also factor in the long term impact of landed property demand caused by MAS decision to scrap FIS and raise the bar for GIP? I believe in the past if was easier for PR to buy landed, as for now, it is almost impossible.
1) It is meaningless to compare the supply of condo vs landed without comparing their respective demand. Yes condo supply is more than landed, but so is demand for condo and vice versa for landed.
So pray tell where is the demand going to come from for condos. Go examine yr population stats. FT/PRs? Organic population growth? Govt has already mentioned that they will be moderating FT/PRs intake but wants to focus on increasing new citizens. What does this mean when translated to the current pool of buyers for condos vs the current pool of buyers for landed?
what I am trying to sell you is that if you compare the supply of landed verse condo, it is meaningless. in economic 101, they teach you supply and demand, they never teach you supply and supply or demand and demand. get it?
http://stephansmithfx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Supply-and-Demand-Graph.png
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2) The influx of new citizens will have very limited impact on landed property because it is more unlikely that property investors are going to simply give up their citizenship just to buy landed property to generate <2% yield. Unless you have figures to show how many of the new citizens are actually buying into landed, or else, it is just pure speculating.
Ahem..aren't you forgetting about the govt tough stance to moderate in Emplt Passes and PRs. At least the pool of buyers available for landed is increasing whilst the pool of buyers for condos/apts is shrinking. Govt studies have shown that they need an additonal 25K to 35K new citizens each yr. If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
I dont think I should comment too much of what you said as those number which you highlighted are pure speculation at best.
But based on the sentence which I highlighted in red, I just want to say that you must have misunderstood what the government is trying to do here. government is actually cutting down on the E passes for low skills labor, who are employed by construction companies, shiprepairs and SMEs. And these are not the typical guy who will walking to the showflat to buy condo, so I am not sure how this is going to impact on the demand for condo, or even rental. Plus, do you really need an E pass or PR to buy condo in Singapore?
I noticed you have been telling us about the 25-35k new citizen. May I know where is your source?
4) I am not sure if you understand the quantum effect in property. Many time people like to justify that landed psf is so low as compared to condo psf, so landed is cheap. Do you hear any condo investors arguing that because MM psf is so high and their 3 to 4 bedder condo are undervalue.
I would agree with you if the quantum for condos were as low back in the gd ol days but this is here and now. HDB flats are going for abv 1M, gd MM units are also hovering ard there. To get a 3-4 bedrm of mebbe 1200sf, how much do you hv to pay nowadays? 2-3mil? If you compare the living space of 1200sf (which often includes large balconies, planterbox, baywindows and bomb shelter), doesn't it make sense to pay a bit more to get the lving space of a landed?
the solution to the problem you just mention is that developers can shrink the unit size to make it affordable. While for landed, you cant simply cut the 1000sqft land size into half and build 2 units can you?
1200sqft, you can still get them below 1m in OCR region. getting a landed property will be 3 times that amount. pay a little more??? that is 300% more my friend.
As I have mentioned before, the chart which tracks landed property might not reflect the actual price gain of landed property purely because it does not factor in A&A or rebuilding cost.
If you track the price movement of landed property, you will also noticed price movement of semi d and terrace houses always seem to lag behind detached houses both on the up and down trend. Perhaps this is a good indication that investors who make money from landed are those in the detached housing segment.
I can also say that that some condo transactions do not take into account renovation costs so the gains there may be artficially inflated. For owners who have held the units for some time and then sold, you also have not factored in the maintenance fees that they have paid over the yrs for condos. There are no maintenance fees for landed.
For landed , I believe there are sales of old totally unrefurbished houses as well as new ones so it kind of balances/averages out the 'actual' gains. The perceived differential which you are under the impression that exist is probably way lower than you think.
can you provide the source which the government says they are targeting at 25K to 35K new citizen pa?
beside talking about new citizens, have you also factor in the long term impact of landed property demand caused by MAS decision to scrap FIS and raise the bar for GIP? I believe in the past if was easier for PR to buy landed, as for now, it is almost impossible.
For someone who seems to know abt FIS/GIP, I am surprised you do not know the source of the population immigrant studdies. Very well, sppon feed you...Please refer to the report by the national population and talent division -nptd.gov.sg which indicated a need for at leaset 25K each yr just to keep our popuiation size stable. The other study is by the Institute of Policy studies which indicates a need for 30K new immigrants per yr. Both these reports are the basis in a national discussion which will culminate in a white paper by the govt.
For the FIS and GIP schemes, PRs still needed to obtain LDU approval before they buy landed. Our dear law minsiter has already said that approvals were very strict as far as landed was concerned. The numbers which were approved are probably very small and I think hardly makes a dent when you are looking at an immigrant influx of 25K per year.
what I am trying to sell you is that if you compare the supply of landed verse condo, it is meaningless. in economic 101, they teach you supply and demand, they never teach you supply and supply or demand and demand. get it?
You probably have not my read my post properly. I am comparing demand with supply.
What constitutes POTENTIAL (why potential is becos not all of them may want to buy a property) demand pool for foreigner eligible pte condo/apt in SG ?
SG citizens, PRs, all foreigners based in SG + overseas (which is probly a very small percentage)
Pipeline supply of condos/apt as at 2Q12 is 83K with a main portion coming onstream in 2014/2015 (see URA stats since you are so hung up on references).
If govt clamps down on EP as well as PR applications, your demand pool gets smaller whilst the supply pool is still going to grow by 83K. Based on simple economics theory, aren't you having lesser pot. demand chasing a larger supply stock?
Before you poo-poo this and say that PRs and EP clamp down is only for unskilled labour etc, go and read up TCJ's speech and presentation carefully. The main aim is to improve the quality of SG's workforce and that doesn't just mean unskilled labour. I don't think I need to give you references for that.
on the oth hand, if govt comes up with white paper and adopts the recommendation immigrant influx numbers, the pool of 25K new citizens p.a. will increase the potential demand pool for landed significantly which incidentally is a smaller subset (i.e SG citizens plus approved foreginers) of the pot. demand pool for condos/apts. With an almost neglible increase in pipeline supply of landed stock, won't you have more pot demand chasing the same stock of landed?
[quote=Ringo33]the solution to the problem you just mention is that developers can shrink the unit size to make it affordable. While for landed, you cant simply cut the 1000sqft land size into half and build 2 units can you?
1200sqft, you can still get them below 1m in OCR region. getting a landed property will be 3 times that amount. pay a little more??? that is 300% more my friend.
I don't know whether you even follow the news recently but there have been new guidelines implemented for MM units. Developers just can't keep cutting down apts to improve affordability anymore so I am afraid yr quantum effect theory is just that, a theory. Anyway, you shouldn't even be comparing MM to landed. The price of a 200s0sf+ 4-5 bedrm condo wld be more appropriate.
Its seems you not only follow the news but probaly don't keep abreast of prices too. Please try this simple experiment for me, goto www.propertyguru,com.sg (http://www.propertyguru,com.sg).
Search for an apt/condo in say, I give an ulu district 18 Tampines/Pasir Ris (no offence to tampines/pasir ris residents), under search criteria, try to find a min 3 bedrm apt with a max amt of $1mil and tenure : FH. Let me know whether you get any hits. If you do get any, its probly those vto or with no prices.
I dont think I should comment too much of what you said as those number which you highlighted are pure speculation at best.
But based on the sentence which I highlighted in red, I just want to say that you must have misunderstood what the government is trying to do here. government is actually cutting down on the E passes for low skills labor, who are employed by construction companies, shiprepairs and SMEs. And these are not the typical guy who will walking to the showflat to buy condo, so I am not sure how this is going to impact on the demand for condo, or even rental. Plus, do you really need an E pass or PR to buy condo in Singapore?
So much for another "power" quality post...
Some of it may be speculation but at least i have provided some stats and figures to back up my case.
Now its my turn to ask you & BJ21 : What substantive figures do you have to back up the claim that the latest round of QE3 will not increase the price of landed but will increase the price of condos?
It is certainly ery easy to make sweeping statments and ask for references here & there huh?
As for the EP/PR clamp down,,,go read TCJ's message clearly.
Please give me yr references too and not just a silly economics 101 ss/dd curve chart.
So much for another "power" quality post.
blackjack21trader
20-09-12, 04:49
....
Now its my turn to ask you & BJ21 : What substantive figures do you have to back up the claim that the latest round of QE3 will not increase the price of landed but will increase the price of condos?
....
wahlaueh.. brother, dun bring me into the water leh. All brothers and sisters here know since day one that I have no figure, but only an extra eye leh.
:(
blackjack21trader
20-09-12, 04:53
......
As for the EP/PR clamp down,,,go read TCJ's message clearly.
Please give me yr references too and not just a silly economics 101 ss/dd curve chart.
So much for another "power" quality post.
please continue the debate with other brothers here. when I see your england all so bombastic and theory and thinking skill so good..I very paiseh lah.....I got very inferior complex leh.......
blackjack21trader
20-09-12, 04:55
But I must say my third eye tend to agree more with brother ringo33 la. WOAHAHAHAHHAHAHHHEHHEHEHEHHEHE
I can also say that that some condo transactions do not take into account renovation costs so the gains there may be artficially inflated. For owners who have held the units for some time and then sold, you also have not factored in the maintenance fees that they have paid over the yrs for condos. There are no maintenance fees for landed.
For landed , I believe there are sales of old totally unrefurbished houses as well as new ones so it kind of balances/averages out the 'actual' gains. The perceived differential which you are under the impression that exist is probably way lower than you think.
For condo, I can show your actual profitable deals of how condo investors could make incredible margin from sub sale or people selling brand new condo bought and sold within a year. So there will be no argument about reno cost.
Can you do like wise for landed? Perhaps not.
For someone who seems to know abt FIS/GIP, I am surprised you do not know the source of the population immigrant studdies. Very well, sppon feed you...Please refer to the report by the national population and talent division -nptd.gov.sg which indicated a need for at leaset 25K each yr just to keep our popuiation size stable. The other study is by the Institute of Policy studies which indicates a need for 30K new immigrants per yr. Both these reports are the basis in a national discussion which will culminate in a white paper by the govt.
For the FIS and GIP schemes, PRs still needed to obtain LDU approval before they buy landed. Our dear law minsiter has already said that approvals were very strict as far as landed was concerned. The numbers which were approved are probably very small and I think hardly makes a dent when you are looking at an immigrant influx of 25K per year.
thanks for pointing out nptd.gov.sg and I notice that you have soften your tone from 25-35k to just 25k. Could you show me the link which they recommend to increase the intake of new citizen from current level to 25-35k.
While you are at it, you might want to look at the demographic profile of new SC before insisting the new SC is going to boost the demand for landed property. Remember, while new SC come, old SC go (as in die lah). And with SC average family size getting smaller, do you have reason to believe they demand for landed will continue to thrive?
From 2007-2011, 38% of new SCs were granted to
working individuals, while 62% were dependants. Like
new PRs, new SCs are generally young and have good
educational qualifications. 53% of new SCs were under
30 years old, and of those over 20 years old, 61% had
a diploma or higher qualification.
You probably have not my read my post properly. I am comparing demand with supply.
Actually I did, you were comparing supply vs supply, and demand vs demand separately. perhaps you could show me in which of your earlier post you compare supply and demand in a meaningful way.
What constitutes POTENTIAL (why potential is becos not all of them may want to buy a property) demand pool for foreigner eligible pte condo/apt in SG ?
SG citizens, PRs, all foreigners based in SG + overseas (which is probly a very small percentage)
Pipeline supply of condos/apt as at 2Q12 is 83K with a main portion coming onstream in 2014/2015 (see URA stats since you are so hung up on references).
If govt clamps down on EP as well as PR applications, your demand pool gets smaller whilst the supply pool is still going to grow by 83K. Based on simple economics theory, aren't you having lesser pot. demand chasing a larger supply stock?
Before you poo-poo this and say that PRs and EP clamp down is only for unskilled labour etc, go and read up TCJ's speech and presentation carefully. The main aim is to improve the quality of SG's workforce and that doesn't just mean unskilled labour. I don't think I need to give you references for that.
on the oth hand, if govt comes up with white paper and adopts the recommendation immigrant influx numbers, the pool of 25K new citizens p.a. will increase the potential demand pool for landed significantly which incidentally is a smaller subset (i.e SG citizens plus approved foreginers) of the pot. demand pool for condos/apts. With an almost neglible increase in pipeline supply of landed stock, won't you have more pot demand chasing the same stock of landed?
Can I excuse myself from commenting on what you said because I dont see a point on debating on speculation and opinion instead of hard facts.
And btw, condo investors doesnt want all non Singaporeans residents to buy condo, they want them to RENT.
Btw, can you please reply my post separately instead of lumping them together because it will be easier for you to post, easier for me to reply and also help remind you what you have written.
For condo, I can show your actual profitable deals of how condo investors could make incredible margin from sub sale or people selling brand new condo bought and sold within a year. So there will be no argument about reno cost.
Can you do like wise for landed? Perhaps not.
I am sure you can do that by showing txns frm the gd ol days when there was no 4yr ssd. Show me a txn which was done recently where an apt was bought within the 4 yr ssd and then sold for an incredible margin.
thanks for pointing out nptd.gov.sg and I notice that you have soften your tone from 25-35k to just 25k. Could you show me the link which they recommend to increase the intake of new citizen from current level to 25-35k.
While you are at it, you might want to look at the demographic profile of new SC before insisting the new SC is going to boost the demand for landed property. Remember, while new SC come, old SC go (as in die lah). And with SC average family size getting smaller, do you have reason to believe they demand for landed will continue to thrive?
If you read my original post, i used the baseline 25k as the basis for my computations and not the higher end so no need to nitpik. Go read the studies. They are only studies but will b used in a national discussion which will result in a govt white paper. It is a reasonable assumption to use and at least i do hv some backing docs to support my case vs oth pple who do have anything substantiv at all.
Oh dear, you think the pple who did the studies dont take into a/c attrition rate?
From an investment point of view and for a own stay point of view is very different. Be it FH or LH, if you buy a PH for 1.5mil for own stay then of course most will think it is more worthwhile to buy a 1.8mil landed with much bigger buildup. With QE prices of condo will move up and landed already very high?? This one got no record to prove so no point arguing...:p
Both pricing will move in same direction and this one history should be able to prove.
How can condo price keep going and then landed has peaked....this is quite nonsense in my opinion. TS could be out with a good sharing intention but could also have a motive, just like when u hear ppl say buy buy buy, then maybe it's time for you to run run and run :D
No Offence...:2cents: :2cents:
Can I excuse myself from commenting on what you said because I dont see a point on debating on speculation and opinion instead of hard facts.
And btw, condo investors doesnt want all non Singaporeans residents to buy condo, they want them to RENT.
Typical cop out when u hv nothing substantive to bring to the table. I do not see any hard facts frm u to support the thread title either. Its always easy to tear down but i hv yet to see any substance frm u yet.
Investment returns dont only comprise rental but also capital appreciation. There must b an exit pt to realise yr profits. Besides, clamp dwn on ep/pr will only spell bad news for investor who intend to rent.
Actually I did, you were comparing supply vs supply, and demand vs demand separately. perhaps you could show me in which of your earlier post you compare supply and demand in a meaningful way.
Since u hv excuse yrself frm commenting on this (which you obviously hv no counter to), why are you still asking for an explanation?
You still haven't provided any hard facts to back thread title so i presume it is worst than just speculation or opinion and just a downright inaccurate comment.
What a kindergarden technique...challenge pple to provide backing info and when they present something which you cannot counter , dismiss it as speculation/opinion. Come on, any child can do that...
to Equaliser:
you are saying that there will be lower demand for condos because lower supply of EPs/PRs/ etc, ignoring the fact that foreigners who are not working and/or not residing in singapore can purchase condos.
you can see read the proportion of
http://www.btinvest.com.sg/system/assets/7024/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q2%202012.pdf
for older years.
http://www.dtz.com/portal/downloadContent?image=/StaticFiles/Research/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q4%202010.pdf&item=c24a2f7768c6e210VgnVCM1000000c02a8c0____
You can see the proportion of foreign buyers are quite big enough,10% thereabouts. (or is that small?).
of course with the introduction of ABSD, proportion of foreigners drop from in 2012Q1.
what BJ21 point is: supply of buyer for landed is suppressed, but any tom, dick, harry in the world can buy condo as long as got money.
$500k also can MM condo
$800k also cannot buy 3 year lease remaining landed in Geylang (without LDU permission.).
Now according to BJ21, cos of QE3, money will come to singapore.
question time: where will money goes to?
i am sure money doesnt go to fixed deposits.
if it doesnt go to stocks, then it go to other asset classes like properties.
now if hot money decide to go to properties, it can go to commercial, residential etc. and if it goes to residential, then it will go to non-landed properties because it can.
personally i also would want landed, but since i am restricted from doing so, no choice but to buy non-landed. perhaps can consider me as a microcosm of foreign money flowing into singapore to buy non-landed?
or perhaps, BJ21 is wrong, QE3 will not increase any price, both and non-landed.
to Equaliser:
you are saying that there will be lower demand for condos because lower supply of EPs/PRs/ etc, ignoring the fact that foreigners who are not working and/or not residing in singapore can purchase condos.
you can see read the proportion of
http://www.btinvest.com.sg/system/assets/7024/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q2%202012.pdf
for older years.
http://www.dtz.com/portal/downloadContent?image=/StaticFiles/Research/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q4%202010.pdf&item=c24a2f7768c6e210VgnVCM1000000c02a8c0____
You can see the proportion of foreign buyers are quite big enough,10% thereabouts. (or is that small?).
of course with the introduction of ABSD, proportion of foreigners drop from in 2012Q1.
what BJ21 point is: supply of buyer for landed is suppressed, but any tom, dick, harry in the world can buy condo as long as got money.
$500k also can MM condo
$800k also cannot buy 3 year lease remaining landed in Geylang (without LDU permission.).
Now according to BJ21, cos of QE3, money will come to singapore.
question time: where will money goes to?
i am sure money doesnt go to fixed deposits.
if it doesnt go to stocks, then it go to other asset classes like properties.
now if hot money decide to go to properties, it can go to commercial, residential etc. and if it goes to residential, then it will go to non-landed properties because it can.
personally i also would want landed, but since i am restricted from doing so, no choice but to buy non-landed. perhaps can consider me as a microcosm of foreign money flowing into singapore to buy non-landed?
or perhaps, BJ21 is wrong, QE3 will not increase any price, both and non-landed.
Good summary. One question. If non-landed goes up as a result of the above, sellers of these properties would have the liquidity to buy landed thereby causing the landed to rise? My assumption here is these sellers of non-landed are SC.
Good summary. One question. If non-landed goes up as a result of the above, sellers of these properties would have the liquidity to buy landed thereby causing the landed to rise? My assumption here is these sellers of non-landed are SC.
i dont have the answers.
but lets say i am a buyer of size, eg fund.
would it be easier for me to negotiate with 30 individual sellers or would i rather negotiate directly with a developer for 30 units in a new launch (or the unsold properties) ?
so with that, the developer bosses probably would buy the expensive landed.
as for individual foreigners, i dont know, i either buy from developer, buy/sell to other foreigners. not once have i transacted with singaporean citizen. maybe singaporean citizen keep their CCR properties, whereas foreigner buy and sell?
if foreigner buy the cheaper condo from local, can local use the money to buy landed? i dont know. i must confess i am not that interested in landed as i cannot play in it.
to Equaliser:
you are saying that there will be lower demand for condos because lower supply of EPs/PRs/ etc, ignoring the fact that foreigners who are not working and/or not residing in singapore can purchase condos.
you can see read the proportion of
http://www.btinvest.com.sg/system/assets/7024/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q2%202012.pdf
for older years.
http://www.dtz.com/portal/downloadContent?image=/StaticFiles/Research/DTZ%20Property%20Times%20-%20Singapore%20residential%20demand%20Q4%202010.pdf&item=c24a2f7768c6e210VgnVCM1000000c02a8c0____
You can see the proportion of foreign buyers are quite big enough,10% thereabouts. (or is that small?).
of course with the introduction of ABSD, proportion of foreigners drop from in 2012Q1.
what BJ21 point is: supply of buyer for landed is suppressed, but any tom, dick, harry in the world can buy condo as long as got money.
$500k also can MM condo
$800k also cannot buy 3 year lease remaining landed in Geylang (without LDU permission.).
Now according to BJ21, cos of QE3, money will come to singapore.
question time: where will money goes to?
i am sure money doesnt go to fixed deposits.
if it doesnt go to stocks, then it go to other asset classes like properties.
now if hot money decide to go to properties, it can go to commercial, residential etc. and if it goes to residential, then it will go to non-landed properties because it can.
personally i also would want landed, but since i am restricted from doing so, no choice but to buy non-landed. perhaps can consider me as a microcosm of foreign money flowing into singapore to buy non-landed?
or perhaps, BJ21 is wrong, QE3 will not increase any price, both and non-landed.
@hopeful
Thk you for yr post and I appreciate the time taken to do yr research. The links you gave are very informative. I could easily say that what you have posted is speculation and opinion and excuse myself but I won't.
Let me try to tackle yr point :
According to the BTinvest chart as at Q2 12, the breakdown is as follows:
Q2 12 Pte residential txns by residential status
Singaporeans - 78%
SPR -15%
Foreigners - 7%
Companies - 1%
Foreigners only constituted 7% whilst companies which cld be SG companies or possibly yr "Funds" only constituted 1%.
Accoriding to report, no. of purchases by non-residential foreigners was abt 611 per qtr. Even if we assume that QE3 causes a spurt in buying interest by foreigners and it increases by 20%, the additional units attributable to QE3 will only be abt 122 or about 500 units per yr which to me won't cause waves in the mkt.
The buying by companies (yr funds) is even smaller (1%) and imho will be pretty neglible even with the impact of QE3. If it wasn't a major contirbutor during QE1 and QE2, I seriously doubt whether QE3 is going make the funds look our way. We have also imposed quite a few restrictions along the way like ABSD & SSD plus the on-stream supply may scare them off.
We must not forget the efforts by govt to slim down PR population as well as EP, so this will not only dent rental revenues but also purchases by PR. As there is no indication of targets by govt, I cannot give you the impact but my gut feel is net net, the positive impact of QE3 will be negated by the decrease in PR numbers.
The key motivation for any non-residential foreigner to buy a property in SG will be rental yield and caiital appreciation. With fewer EP/PRs being issued, rental yield will be impacted. Furthermore they will have to pay the ABSD as well as wait 4 yrs to avoid the SSD to exit. So the motivation may be muted in my opinion. We must also take ito account the supply comin on-stream...83K units is no joke and I am sure foreigners will also take this into accont before deciding to purhcase an apt/condo in SG.
On the other hand, if govt intensifies its efforts to increase new citizens, the demand pool for landed will increase. You must also know that some of these new citizens will be converted from PRs so the PR pool may shrink further.
By becoming new citizens, they are setting up roots here and will most probly be looking for an owner occupied residence. Landed (which was previously shut off frm them) will become an attractive proposition. They will also no longer be subject to ABSD as long as they don't own more than 2 ppties.
With new supply of landed being very small and the excess liquidity from QE3, landed may become a more viable option for them as an owner occupied residence.
I am sure you can do that by showing txns frm the gd ol days when there was no 4yr ssd. Show me a txn which was done recently where an apt was bought within the 4 yr ssd and then sold for an incredible margin.
SSD applies to both landed and condo, so I am not sure why do you need to bring this up. Why not show us landed property transaction prior to SSD to prove your point instead of asking ridicules request?
Obviously you dont have the facts to prove your point dont you?
@hopeful
Oh btw...personally.. i do hope you will achieve yr landed soon. Not becos I am trying to prove my point here but becos we need more people like you here.
TQ for an interesting post and discussion.
SSD applies to both landed and condo, so I am not sure why do you need to bring this up. Why not show us landed property transaction prior to SSD to prove your point instead of asking ridicules request?
First you boast that you can show me a transaction with incredible margins. When I call on your bluff and ask you to show me one in current context i.e with SSD, you try to turn it around and ask me to show one instead :doh: .
As I said...kindergarden technique of answering post....you want me to show then you must show me first....
Come on...something substantive from you will indeed be refreshing.
no pt wasting your precious time+effort with this guy or the other one with iq of 21. if you did not realise it, the ringo chap has an iq of 33.
First you boast that you can show me a transaction with incredible margins. When I call on your bluff and ask you to show me one in current context i.e with SSD, you try to turn it around and ask me to show one instead :doh: .
As I said...kindergarden technique of answering post....you want me to show then you must show me first....
Come on...something substantive from you will indeed be refreshing.
If you read my original post, i used the baseline 25k as the basis for my computations and not the higher end so no need to nitpik. Go read the studies. They are only studies but will b used in a national discussion which will result in a govt white paper. It is a reasonable assumption to use and at least i do hv some backing docs to support my case vs oth pple who do have anything substantiv at all.
Oh dear, you think the pple who did the studies dont take into a/c attrition rate?
NO NO, I was just asking for your source of information on government policy for new SC. Till now i only hear you making lots of baseless assumption about it, but no concrete proof to validate your information.
25K to 35K is around 40% leh, is that nitpicking?
There is no need to make baseless assumption and speculation about the whitepaper. Till now, you couldnt even show us the link to the part where the government talk about increasing new SC to 25-35K per year.
Btw, is there any reason why you didnt comment any about the demography profile of new SC I posted earlier?
Since u hv excuse yrself frm commenting on this (which you obviously hv no counter to), why are you still asking for an explanation?
You still haven't provided any hard facts to back thread title so i presume it is worst than just speculation or opinion and just a downright inaccurate comment.
Its fine if you tell us that you didn't learn about supply and demand pricing concept in school. We all started somewhere isnt it?
I hope you did learn something here.
Typical cop out when u hv nothing substantive to bring to the table. I do not see any hard facts frm u to support the thread title either. Its always easy to tear down but i hv yet to see any substance frm u yet.
Investment returns dont only comprise rental but also capital appreciation. There must b an exit pt to realise yr profits. Besides, clamp dwn on ep/pr will only spell bad news for investor who intend to rent.
If you start talking nonsense am I suppose to follow you?
Investment returns? Sure, show me the numbers and stop talking about white toilet paper.
Hello everyone.
Property price will still go higher until 2015.
QE3 means almost zero interest rates continues.....
So if rental yield is 3% why would anyone keep money in the bank? Why?
Even borrow money is just going to cost you 1%.
I think it's a no brainer. Sadly only the rich can get into the market because of all the government cooling measures.....
First you boast that you can show me a transaction with incredible margins. When I call on your bluff and ask you to show me one in current context i.e with SSD, you try to turn it around and ask me to show one instead :doh: .
As I said...kindergarden technique of answering post....you want me to show then you must show me first....
Come on...something substantive from you will indeed be refreshing.
the whole purpose of this discussion was to prove to you that even without reno (or even collecting the keys) condo buyer can flip and make decent profit. Would you be able to show us that landed buyer can do that same without A&A?
And btw, what does SSD has got to do with this discussion???
Originally Posted by equalizer
I can also say that that some condo transactions do not take into account renovation costs so the gains there may be artficially inflated. For owners who have held the units for some time and then sold, you also have not factored in the maintenance fees that they have paid over the yrs for condos. There are no maintenance fees for landed.
For landed , I believe there are sales of old totally unrefurbished houses as well as new ones so it kind of balances/averages out the 'actual' gains. The perceived differential which you are under the impression that exist is probably way lower than you think.
NO NO, I was just asking for your source of information on government policy for new SC. Till now i only hear you making lots of baseless assumption about it, but no concrete proof to validate your information.
25K to 35K is around 40% leh, is that nitpicking?
There is no need to make baseless assumption and speculation about the whitepaper. Till now, you couldnt even show us the link to the part where the government talk about increasing new SC to 25-35K per year.
Btw, is there any reason why you didnt comment any about the demography profile of new SC I posted earlier?
The NPTD is a division of the Prime Minister's office. As I have mentioned a few times before, they will be using the info frm them as a basis in their white paper for addressing population issues. You want to know their intentions... pls follow the news but as usual, you need to be spoon fed...
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singaporescene/pore-needs-attract-immigrants-dpm-teo-103531625.html
Of course they won't reveal the number until the white paper is out but where do you think they will pluck the number from. Like I said, its a reasonable assumption but then some pple just can't grasp it.
38% of 25K is still 9500 working individuals per yr....
the whole purpose of this discussion was to prove to you that even without reno (or even collecting the keys) condo buyer can flip and make decent profit. Would you be able to show us that landed buyer can do that same without A&A?
And btw, what does SSD has got to do with this discussion???
Hello, mkt dynamics have changed. Yr assumption that incredible margins made without reno is no longer valid. You are obviously living in the past.
:doh: Because the motivation to flip is no longer there with SSD. A buyer is forced to hold for 4 yrs now and will have to renovate the place to get rental plus pay maintenance for 4 yrs, I haven't even factored in agent's commission.
Having said this,, please show me a transaction with incredible margins which was subject to SSD.
The 'quality' of yr posts is indeed becoming very evident.
If you start talking nonsense am I suppose to follow you?
Investment returns? Sure, show me the numbers and stop talking about white toilet paper.
If what I am saying is nonsense, then it would be extremely easy for someone of yr 'superior' intellect to demolish my arguments.
Wouldn't this be more effective ? After all, you are already wasting the same amt of typing effort just to sling insults at me.
Hello, mkt dynamics have changed. Yr assumption that incredible margins made without reno is no longer valid. You are obviously living in the past.
:doh: Because the motivation to flip is no longer there with SSD. A buyer is forced to hold for 4 yrs now and will have to renovate the place to get rental plus pay maintenance for 4 yrs, I haven't even factored in agent's commission.
Having said this,, please show me a transaction with incredible margins which was subject to SSD.
The 'quality' of yr posts is indeed becoming very evident.
You are again trying to divert this discussion into something else. Our discussion is about landed buyer having to invest in A&A before they can make profit. You claim that condo is that same and I am offering to prove that condo buyer can make a decent profit without reno or even collecting the key.
Dont need to ask if condo buyer can flip and make profit with SSD. That is STUPID question.
Is this what you call substance? :doh:
The NPTD is a division of the Prime Minister's office. As I have mentioned a few times before, they will be using the info frm them as a basis in their white paper for addressing population issues. You want to know their intentions... pls follow the news but as usual, you need to be spoon fed...
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singaporescene/pore-needs-attract-immigrants-dpm-teo-103531625.html
Of course they won't reveal the number until the white paper is out but where do you think they will pluck the number from. Like I said, its a reasonable assumption but then some pple just can't grasp it.
38% of 25K is still 9500 working individuals per yr....
I have read the article, but my question to you is who, or where or when, did the government say that they are going increase the inflow for new citizen from currently level to 25-35k?
I remember PM Lee touch abit about the population issue during the NDP rally speech and he mentioned the government is proposing several measures to boost fertility rate, but there were no mentioned about boosting inflow of new SC. May be I missed out. Can you fill me in?
You are again trying to divert this discussion into something else. Our discussion is about landed buyer having to invest in A&A before they can make profit. You claim that condo is that same and I am offering to prove that condo buyer can make a decent profit without reno or even collecting the key.
Dont need to ask if condo buyer can flip and make profit with SSD. That is STUPID question.
Is this what you call substance? :doh:
Who's trying to divert the discussion?
First you accused me of using only old landed as an example. I then reply with an example of the advantages of buying a NEW landed vs a NEW condo & holding for 4 yrs where A&A was not a factor.
Then you go off topic and boast that you can show a txn with incredible margins by flipping without reno
When I demolish that argument, you come back and start crying that I have gone off topic.
Dont need to ask if condo buyer can flip and make profit with SSD. That is STUPID question.
Oh..its seems stupid now ah? I just remember somebody who was under the impression that it was perfectly legit and that pple can still flip just a few minutes ago...I wonder what it makes that person if this is considered stupid.
I have read the article, but my question to you is who, or where or when, did the government say that they are going increase the inflow for new citizen from currently level to 25-35k?
I remember PM Lee touch abit about the population issue during the NDP rally speech and he mentioned the government is proposing several measures to boost fertility rate, but there were no mentioned about boosting inflow of new SC. May be I missed out. Can you fill me in?
Obviously your reading /comprehension ability is impaired when you are upset...calm down breathe and read this again...
Heading of news article - S’pore needs to attract new immigrants: DPM Teo
Of course they won't reveal the number until the white paper is out but where do you think they will pluck the number from. Like I said, its a reasonable assumption but then some pple just can't grasp it.
Who's trying to divert the discussion?
First you accused me of using only old landed as an example. I then reply with an example of the advantages of buying a NEW landed vs a NEW condo & holding for 4 yrs where A&A was not a factor.
Then you go off topic and boast that you can show a txn with incredible margins by flipping without reno
When I demolish that argument, you come back and start crying that I have gone off topic.
Oh..its seems stupid now ah? I just remember somebody who was under the impression that it was perfectly legit just a few minutes ago...I wonder what it makes that person if this is considered stupid.
1) Yes, I say that you selectively choose to compare old FH landed vs old FH condo because it only through buying old landed property to rebuild and A&A that you can claim you make decent money.
2) Referring to the below URA price chart which you posted, I highlighted that price index of landed property can be misleading because it doesnt take into account the amount of A&A money spend on doing up the property. e.g. buying a old landed for $1.5m, spend 500K on A&A and sold it for 2.2m. For URA, they take it as 700K profit instead of 200K.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UyHoQ8JGnDM/TUUMEzS9RjI/AAAAAAAAAWM/mbx7SK0TpP8/s1600/4Q.gif (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXWxVbaNGlSOisLonniuJrp11rRcXSAam6lWBdWp3dhPIxUSdrLQ)
3) You counter argument was that condo also need renovation etc. But I offer to prove to you that condo buyer have been making decent profits without doing any reno or even collect the keys and I ask if you could prove likewise? obviously you cant
4) Instead of proving yourself, you started asking stupid question like can condo be flip and make money with 16% SSD.
So if you have facts to prove yourself, please lay it down on the table instead of talking about white toilet paper.
Obviously your reading /comprehension ability is impaired when you are upset...calm down breathe and read this again...
Heading of news article - S’pore needs to attract new immigrants: DPM Teo
.
obviously you think immigrants = citizens dont you? :doh:
1) Yes, I say that you selectively choose to compare old FH landed vs old FH condo because it only through buying old landed property to rebuild and A&A that you can claim you make decent money.
2) Referring to the below URA price chart which you posted, I highlighted that price index of landed property can be misleading because it doesnt take into account the amount of A&A money spend on doing up the property. e.g. buying a old landed for $1.5m, spend 500K on A&A and sold it for 2.2m. For URA, they take it as 700K profit instead of 200K.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UyHoQ8JGnDM/TUUMEzS9RjI/AAAAAAAAAWM/mbx7SK0TpP8/s1600/4Q.gif (https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQXWxVbaNGlSOisLonniuJrp11rRcXSAam6lWBdWp3dhPIxUSdrLQ)
3) You counter argument was that condo also need renovation etc. But I offer to prove to you that condo buyer have been making decent profits without doing any reno or even collect the keys and I ask if you could prove likewise? obviously you cant
PLEASE GET YR FACTS RIGHT : I took up yr offer to prove to me that a condo buyer now can still make INCREDIBLE MARGINS (these were yr words and not decent profits) but you could not deliver.
4) Instead of proving yourself, you started asking stupid question like can condo be flip and make money with 16% SSD.
CORRECTION : Because you could not deliver and you knew that your previous argument could no longer could stand. i.e. people who buy condos cannot make incredible margins anymore, you tried to divert the attention by writing untruths in this post.
These are the facts and anyone can follow the posts in the forum.
So if you have facts to prove yourself, please lay it down on the table instead of talking about white toilet paper.
................:doh:
I
................:doh:
I
Apology accepted.
obviously you think immigrants = citizens dont you? :doh:
Oh boy...now I know what I am dealing with....back to kindergarden again...
Did you actually read the report by NPTD and know what they are recommending? Who do you think their recommendations will be adopted by?
excerpts from from the NPTD report
The report said that if the total fertility rate (TFR) remains at its current 1.2, the country would need an immigration inflow of between 20,000 and 25,000 new citizens annually to keep the citizen-population size stable.
.......The citizen population does not include permanent residents or foreigners,
Apology accepted.
oh dear...kindergarden behaviour....
oh dear...kindergarden behaviour....
It is spell as Kindergarten (not garden)
It is spell as Kindergarten (not garden)
you have justified yr level of maturity...thank you.
Oh boy...now I know what I am dealing with....back to kindergarden again...
Did you actually read the report by NPTD and know what they are recommeding? Who do you think their recommendations will be adopted by?
excerpts from from the NPTD report
The report said that if the total fertility rate (TFR) remains at its current 1.2, the country would need an immigration inflow of between 20,000 and 25,000 new citizens annually to keep the citizen-population size stable.
.......The citizen population does not include permanent residents or foreigners,
It is all right that you misunderstood the meaning of immigrant. There is really no need to be ashamed
You should be proud that you learn a few things today. Including how to spell Kindergarten with a T
Obviously your reading /comprehension ability is impaired when you are upset...calm down breathe and read this again...
Heading of news article - S’pore needs to attract new immigrants: DPM Teo
It is all right that you misunderstood the meaning of immigrant. There is really no need to be ashamed
You should be proud that you learn a few things today. Including how to spell Kindergarten with a T
Sorry but i don't engage in such taunting. Nice try tho'. When you are ready to post something substantive, let me know.
After realizing your level of maturity, its must be quite taxing on yr young mind to see the big picture and piece everything together.
Let me spell it out in simple terms for you :
1. We know Govt wants to increase immigrants :
Headlines : S'pore needs to attract more immigrants : DPM Teo
2. We also know that they target ard 25K new citizens a yr:
NPTD/IPS report
3. Another fact is that they are scaling down PRs/EPs and want to encourage PRs to take up citizenship (to the extent that they will reject PR renewals):
a ST : Tighter rules lead to far fewer PRs admitted from 2010
b. CNA : Budget 2012 round-up: Singapore to reduce foreign worker inflow
c. CNA - Government encourages more Singapore PRs to take up citizenship. SM Goh : "Moving forward, we are going to approach some of them to take up Singapore citizenship, if they don't then their PR will not be renewed. That's a better way.
4. Immigrants = SC + PR
5. There is a max number of immigrants we can take in each year as our infrastructure is already straining. So if the number of immigrants are limited each year, based on facts (1) to (3), who gains and who suffters? I believer you can work that out without my help.
6. You talk about attrition of old SC but immigration doesn't work like your brain which can only process one bit of info after regurgitating the other. They don't wait for old SC to die off and then replace them but rely on forecasts and life expectancy as in the NPTD report. Hence they will still bring in at least 25K new citizens regardless of whether the old SC die off or not.
It doesn't matter if there is more SC than originally planned. However, the converse is true if old SC die off faster than expected. They will increase the intake the next year with a bigger buffer. Therefore the 25K number that I used could even be understated as they would want to build up a buffer.
7. What if old SC live much longer than planned and our population increases too fast? Then they will just not renew PR or EP passes. Citizens first!
So bottom line is : Citizens - UP, PR/EP - DOWN.
Ok, got it? I am going to switch the flow now and it could get a bit complex for you. Let me know if you can't follow.
QE3 and its effects.
1. It will increase liquidity and possibility even decrease interest rates further. This means financing capability will increase and S$ strengthen
2. This will generally have a positive impact on the entire spectrum of property buyers (SC, PR and foreigners)
3. However, PRs and foreigners will decrease (if you have managed to follow my points above) whilst SC will increase.
4. Less PR/EP = less people to rent apt/condos and a smaller pool of buyers of buyers for condo/apts. If the PR/EP are paid in US$, their purchasing power will be eroded further.
5. More SC and greater financing capability means SC can now afford bigger homes with less financing burden. Means bigger pool of buyers for landed.
6. You mentioned yr quantum effect and affordability but MM restrictions are in place plus QE 3 will boost affordability.
7. If you are an SC and your affordability quantum increase, sure, you can also buy condos/apt but won't it make better sense to buy an asset with limited supply rather one with supply overhang?
For new SC who can afford a landed but was previously restricted from buying one, won't it be a natural choice?
I let you work it out for yourself since you always like to be spoonfed.
End of lesson. Better run along to another playground. Its quite dangerous here and I am afraid you might fall on your head. You can't afford to sustain any further damage to your brain.
After realizing your level of maturity, its must be quite taxing on yr young mind to see the big picture and piece everything together.
Let me spell it out in simple terms for you :
1. We know Govt wants to increase immigrants :
2. We also know that they target ard 25K new citizens a yr:
3. Another fact is that they are scaling down PRs/EPs and want to encourage PRs to take up citizenship (to the extent that they will reject PR renewals):
4. Immigrants = SC + PR
5. There is a max number of immigrants we can take in each year as our infrastructure is already straining. So if the number of immigrants are limited each year, based on facts (1) to (3), who gains and who suffters? I believer you can work that out without my help.
6. You talk about attrition of old SC but immigration doesn't work like your brain which can only process one bit of info after regurgitating the other. They don't wait for old SC to die off and then replace them but rely on forecasts and life expectancy as in the NPTD report. Hence they will still bring in at least 25K new citizens regardless of whether the old SC die off or not.
It doesn't matter if there is more SC than originally planned. However, the converse is true if old SC die off faster than expected. They will increase the intake the next year with a bigger buffer. Therefore the 25K number that I used could even be understated as they would want to build up a buffer.
7. What if old SC live much longer than planned and our population increases too fast? Then they will just not renew PR or EP passes. Citizens first!
So bottom line is : Citizens - UP, PR/EP - DOWN.
Ok, got it? I am going to switch the flow now and it could get a bit complex for you. Let me know if you can't follow.
QE3 and its effects.
1. It will increase liquidity and possibility even decrease interest rates further. This means financing capability will increase and S$ strengthen
2. This will generally have a positive impact on the entire spectrum of property buyers (SC, PR and foreigners)
3. However, PRs and foreigners will decrease (if you have managed to follow my points above) whilst SC will increase.
4. Less PR/EP = less people to rent apt/condos and a smaller pool of buyers of buyers for condo/apts. If the PR/EP are paid in US$, their purchasing power will be eroded further.
5. More SC and greater financing capability means SC can now afford bigger homes with less financing burden. Means bigger pool of buyers for landed.
6. You mentioned yr quantum effect and affordability but MM restrictions are in place plus QE 3 will boost affordability.
7. If you are an SC and your affordability quantum increase, sure, you can also buy condos/apt but won't it make better sense to buy an asset with limited supply rather one with supply overhang?
For new SC who can afford a landed but was previously restricted from buying one, won't it be a natural choice?
I let you work it out for yourself since you always like to be spoonfed.
End of lesson. Better run along to another playground. Its quite dangerous here and I am afraid you might fall on your head. You can't afford to sustain any further damage to your brain.
You can sugarcoat your theory with whatever assumptions as you wish, at the end of the day you are still unable to show us any concrete facts and numbers to support your argument that landed prices are not inflated by A&A activities, and that demand for landed is on the rise because of new citizens.
You can sugarcoat your theory with whatever assumptions as you wish, at the end of the day you are still unable to show us any concrete facts and numbers to support your argument that landed prices are not inflated by A&A activities, and that demand for landed is on the rise because of new citizens.
Please feel free to demolish my assumptions with YOUR FACTS if you can. If not, then you are just noise in this forum.
Please feel free to demolish my assumptions with YOUR FACTS if you can. If not, then you are just noise in this forum.
In university when we do a thesis we always need to provide supporting material to prove our own findings . Instead of doing that now you are saying that others need to provide supporting material to prove your nonsense?
You should go back to school and get some proper education lah. Talk is cheap until you get down to the details and fact.
In university when we do a thesis we always need to provide supporting material to prove our own findings . Instead of doing that now you are saying that others need to provide supporting material to prove your nonsense?
You should go back to school and get some proper education lah. Talk is cheap until you get down to the details and fact.
Noise......
Noise......
I am very free today, so lets start this again.
Topic of our discussions
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Now you can go ahead and tell us point by point to support your argument.
I repeat, point by point, and any assumptions made will have to supported by facts or economic theories NOT using more assumptions to support your assumptions.
any statistic on
1) % of new citizen buying landed compared to buying non-landed properties?
2) % of new citizen buyer as compared to old citizen buyers of landed properties?
3) % of new citizen buyer as compared to old citizen buyers of non-landed properties?
I am very free today, so lets start this again.
Topic of our discussions
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Now you can go ahead and tell us point by point to support your argument.
I repeat, point by point, and any assumptions made will have to supported by facts or economic theories NOT using more assumptions to support your assumptions.
Stick to thread title. Answering a queston with a question very easy. My points are above. Feel free to comment with your supporting facts.
blackjack21trader
21-09-12, 12:31
very impressive debate here ! pls continue so I can learn more , thanks :)
Stick to thread title. Answering a queston with a question very easy. My points are above. Feel free to comment with your supporting facts.
Dont try to play cat and mouse lah.
If you want to engage me for a proper discussion, then please prove yourself that you are worthy.
Back to our the topic.
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Now you can go ahead and tell us point by point to support your argument.
I repeat, point by point, and any assumptions made will have to supported by facts or economic theories NOT using more assumptions to support your assumptions.
Dont try to play cat and mouse lah.
If you want to engage me for a proper discussion, then please prove yourself that you are worthy.
Back to our the topic.
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Now you can go ahead and tell us point by point to support your argument.
I repeat, point by point, and any assumptions made will have to supported by facts or economic theories NOT using more assumptions to support your assumptions.
I think you are the one veering off topic.
TS said qe3 will not increase landed but i say it will. My supporting pts are above. Feel free to comment on my supporting pts if you can. Don't let bj21 down.
I think you are the one veering off topic.
TS said qe3 will not increase landed but i say it will. My supporting pts are above. Feel free to comment on my supporting pts if you can. Don't let bj21 down.
Those are simply your viewpoints and assumptions, so far there is nothing concrete that you have put out to support your argument.
If those are you views and you want us to believe that you are an expert in landed property, then perhaps you could go one step further to tell us point by point how to come to that conclusion about
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Those are simply your viewpoints and assumptions, so far there is nothing concrete that you have put out to support your argument.
If those are you views and you want us to believe that you are an expert in landed property, then perhaps you could go one step further to tell us point by point how to come to that conclusion about
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
Isn't the whole pt of a forum to discuss views & opinions? If you disagree with my opinions, then feel free to challenge them. But if you can't, then its pointless to keep taunting people to change topic.
any statistic on
1) % of new citizen buying landed compared to buying non-landed properties?
2) % of new citizen buyer as compared to old citizen buyers of landed properties?
3) % of new citizen buyer as compared to old citizen buyers of non-landed properties?
where is dtrax when you need him?
from Equaliser:
......If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
my Bull shitting:
1) if 10% (2500) buy landed, then 90% (22500) buy non-landed.
2) do you have any statistic on how many landed transactions per year?
quick browsing manage to give this table:
http://www.iproperty.com.sg/news/455/Private-property-transaction-at-a-glance
equaliser is right in saying that supply of new landed is limited, as can be seen from that link, resale outnumber new sale for landed.
although data is from 2007 january to august, if extrapolate, the total number of landed transactions is 5674 for the whole of 2007.
so 2500 transactions per year, is it like 44% of landed transactions by new citizens per year. is that a reasonable assumption to make?
then what about the 22500 citizens buying non-landed?
if extrapolate, the non-landed transactions for 2007 is 31743.
so 22500 (new citizens) out of 31743 transaction is 70%.
so effect of new citizens on non-landed transactions is bigger than effect of new citizens on landed transactions.
of course, i know all this is BS assumption and figures without hard data.
dtrax, where are you?
Isn't the whole pt of a forum to discuss views & opinions? If you disagree with my opinions, then feel free to challenge them. But if you can't, then its pointless to keep taunting people to change topic.
You are right, I am here to discuss about your views and opinion on landed property. Earlier in this thread you were saying;
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
So I am asking you why are you so sure about what you said. What is your supporting proof or evidence behind what you said.
Actually i wont mind if you tell me that you are just wild guessing.
[QUOTE=Ringo33]You are right, I am here to discuss about your views and opinion on landed property. Earlier in this thread you were saying;
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
So I am asking you why are you so sure about what you said. What is your supporting proof or evidence behind what you said.
Actually i wont mind if you tell me that you are just .
Go read my earlier posts for yr answer otherwise yr comments are just noise......
[quote=Ringo33]You are right, I am here to discuss about your views and opinion on landed property. Earlier in this thread you were saying;
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
So I am asking you why are you so sure about what you said. What is your supporting proof or evidence behind what you said.
Actually i wont mind if you tell me that you are just .
Go read my earlier posts for yr answer otherwise yr comments are just noise......
Could you be kind enough to show me which part of what you wrote is worth reading. I mean in the context of this discussion about landed price of course.
Like I said, its perfectly fine if you tell me that you are just making wild guess about landed property.
So again, I am asking you why are you so sure about what you said. What is your supporting proof or evidence behind what you said.
1) Singapore government policy on immigrant will boost demand for landed property in Singapore
2) Price of landed property is not inflated by A&A activities
where is dtrax when you need him?
from Equaliser:
......If they aim for say the lowest target of 25K p.a. and assuming ONLY 10% of these buy a landed, it still amounts to 2500 purchases of landed PER YEAR. I do not know why u r so fixated on yr <2% yield. These new citizens are here to set up home. They are buying for stay NOT for rental whereas the converse is true for EP or PRs who are either in the mkt to rent or to purchase for investment.
my Bull shitting:
1) if 10% (2500) buy landed, then 90% (22500) buy non-landed.
2) do you have any statistic on how many landed transactions per year?
quick browsing manage to give this table:
http://www.iproperty.com.sg/news/455/Private-property-transaction-at-a-glance
equaliser is right in saying that supply of new landed is limited, as can be seen from that link, resale outnumber new sale for landed.
although data is from 2007 january to august, if extrapolate, the total number of landed transactions is 5674 for the whole of 2007.
so 2500 transactions per year, is it like 44% of landed transactions by new citizens per year. is that a reasonable assumption to make?
then what about the 22500 citizens buying non-landed?
if extrapolate, the non-landed transactions for 2007 is 31743.
so 22500 (new citizens) out of 31743 transaction is 70%.
so effect of new citizens on non-landed transactions is bigger than effect of new citizens on landed transactions.
of course, i know all this is BS assumption and figures without hard data.
dtrax, where are you?
Thanks hopeful...very refreshing for someone to read, analyse and then counter with their supporting facts.
Kudos to you for pointing out that the numbers don't make sense but even if my numbers don't play out, all it takes is a handful of future landed txn done at a higher price to cause TS' statement to be inaccurate.
Of course you can always argue that the cause of the increase was not due to QE3 but the onus would be on the TS to prove it since his statement has now been rendered inaccurate. Then it will degenerate into a "you prove it first" fight.
We can go on and on about who is right and who is wrong but won't the important thing be that some landed owners have made money in the interim?
We are all here to share on investment prospects and increase our networth but unfortunately it has degenerated into a bullying ground of who has the most superior intellect and crushing the dissenting opinion at all cost! I must admit I get caught up in it too and thank you for bringing me back to my zen place.
@ringo33,
Its quite pointless to continue this fruitless argument. May you make lots of $$$ from your condos and may all the landed owners here make lots of $$$ from their landed.
Oh and not forgeting BJ21 too.... wishing you BIG BIG profits from your property portfolio.
Thanks hopeful...very refreshing for someone to read, analyse and then counter with their supporting facts.
Kudos to you for pointing out that the numbers don't make sense but even if my numbers don't play out, all it takes is a handful of future landed txn done at a higher price to cause TS' statement to be inaccurate.
Of course you can always argue that the cause of the increase was not due to QE3 but the onus would be on the TS to prove it since his statement has now been rendered inaccurate. Then it will degenerate into a "you prove it first" fight.
We can go on and on about who is right and who is wrong but won't the important thing be that some landed owners have made money in the interim?
We are all here to share on investment prospects and increase our networth but unfortunately it has degenerated into a bullying ground of who has the most superior intellect and crushing the dissenting opinion at all cost! I must admit I get caught up in it too and thank you for bringing me back to my zen place.
@ringo33,
Its quite pointless to continue this fruitless argument. May you make lots of $$$ from your condos and may all the landed owners here make lots of $$$ from their landed.
Oh and not forgeting BJ21 too.... wishing you BIG BIG profits from your property portfolio.
It is good that we are moving forward finally. So can I assume that we you are now not so sure if government immigrant policy will help boost the demand for landed property?
As for the next topic, do you still have reason to believe that landed property prices are NOT inflated by A&A activities?
blackjack21trader
21-09-12, 15:26
thanks, brother equaliser for your well wishes :) it touches my heart, I regret I am a man,else I will fall in love with you.
WOAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
thanks, brother equaliser for your well wishes :) it touches my heart, I regret I am a man,else I will fall in love with you.
WOAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
haha...you are welcome and one heck of a funny guy...must go & visit yr big bungalow but think only swee cha bor can apply ;)
btw better not say such things to @theonlygayinthevillage
wei don't drag my good friend into the picture ok, he still enjoying his voguecation. wait he cum back 'equalise' your ass then you know....
wei don't drag my good friend into the picture ok, he still enjoying his voguecation. wait he cum back 'equalise' your ass then you know....
:scared-4: :scared-4: :scared-4: ........
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