View Full Version : Upgrading to landed?
seeksadvice
16-08-12, 23:12
Hi this is my first posting. Not quite sure if this question has been asked before?
I am currently living in a surburbia condo & hoping to sell it (fully paid) for a mil, top up with another hard-earned million, take a loan of $2m, to upgrade to a landed property.
It will mean i have to scrimp & save for at least 25 years to fully pay off a house in D15 - going for a cool $4m.
At the rate property prices are going, my palms get sweaty just thinking about it. Yet, a piece of advice that keeps reverberating in my head says to take the plunge, as landed supply can only decrease. And at these prices, some owners are prepared to let go & u can finally find something u really like, instead of settlng on smallish inter- terraces (looking at semi-d).
Is this sound advice? Someone else said i could buy a 2-3mil condo of 1,500-1,800sf in d10,11,15 for self stay while retaining my current condo. I get rental income & don't overstretch myself.
Who is right?
At this point, u might say "depends on your objective & holding power".
I think these are my objectives ( from most to least important):
1. Wealth maximisation....tend to believe in capital appreciation then rental. Hv heard plenty of horror stories from landlords. Also expat frens tell me they are spoilt for choices when they come to spore except agents always try to push D10
2. Maintenance costs & fuss...hv nvr lived in landed before but heard of roof leaks, pipes leaks, lack of carpark space, pests etc.
3. Space...living with parents, maid, wife & teen daughter....getting a bit crowded
4. Amenities & transport...D15 ...katong area seems quite promising even though mrt is a bit far to walk. In fact, quite the opposite, i hope eastern region line won't mean SERs for the house i am looking at.
If u are reading this, pl take a minute to respond:
1. Do u aspire towards landed ultimately?
2. Do u think landed over a 10 yr timeframe will yield better returns than the 2nd strategy above - buy bigger condo & rent out existing one?
3. Do u think spore govt will ever allow foreigners to buy landed, outside sentosa?
Thanks.
fears ....property correction, nightmare tenants, landed maintenance, etc.
Allthepies
16-08-12, 23:28
If u r comfortable with ur current unit and want to maximise returns, I would not sell off current condo and dump everything into a landed. In doing so, u still end up with a single property, more debts, and have to shrimp and save for next 25 years. When u only have a single property for staying, it is really not an investment but more of a liability.
Try buying a 1 mil suburb condo with good rental yield. U only need to put in 250k and u still have 750k. If the market really goes down, ur 750k can be used to buy another one. Tat wat I do to maximize returns. :2cents: :2cents:
sgkingkong
17-08-12, 00:01
Agree with Allthepies. Having just one property is not an investment. Rather, it's just for personal consumption. Even if the price goes north, it's just paper gain.
For 4M, I prefer to go for 2 or more cheaper units.
Regulators
17-08-12, 00:11
if you question the possibility of either living in a condo or a landed due to financial issues, then you are not ready to buy a landed.
Hi this is my first posting. Not quite sure if this question has been asked before?
I am currently living in a surburbia condo & hoping to sell it (fully paid) for a mil, top up with another hard-earned million, take a loan of $2m, to upgrade to a landed property.
It will mean i have to scrimp & save for at least 25 years to fully pay off a house in D15 - going for a cool $4m.
At the rate property prices are going, my palms get sweaty just thinking about it. Yet, a piece of advice that keeps reverberating in my head says to take the plunge, as landed supply can only decrease. And at these prices, some owners are prepared to let go & u can finally find something u really like, instead of settlng on smallish inter- terraces (looking at semi-d).
Is this sound advice? Someone else said i could buy a 2-3mil condo of 1,500-1,800sf in d10,11,15 for self stay while retaining my current condo. I get rental income & don't overstretch myself.
Who is right?
At this point, u might say "depends on your objective & holding power".
I think these are my objectives ( from most to least important):
1. Wealth maximisation....tend to believe in capital appreciation then rental. Hv heard plenty of horror stories from landlords. Also expat frens tell me they are spoilt for choices when they come to spore except agents always try to push D10
2. Maintenance costs & fuss...hv nvr lived in landed before but heard of roof leaks, pipes leaks, lack of carpark space, pests etc.
3. Space...living with parents, maid, wife & teen daughter....getting a bit crowded
4. Amenities & transport...D15 ...katong area seems quite promising even though mrt is a bit far to walk. In fact, quite the opposite, i hope eastern region line won't mean SERs for the house i am looking at.
If u are reading this, pl take a minute to respond:
1. Do u aspire towards landed ultimately?
2. Do u think landed over a 10 yr timeframe will yield better returns than the 2nd strategy above - buy bigger condo & rent out existing one?
3. Do u think spore govt will ever allow foreigners to buy landed, outside sentosa?
Thanks.
fears ....property correction, nightmare tenants, landed maintenance, etc.
if you question the possibility of either living in a condo or a landed due to financial issues, then you are not ready to buy a landed.
Well said :cool1: !
I never really thought of landed as a higher form of private housing (GCBs excluded)
Too many cons which i personally opine against (no sour grapes here)
You can have a landed terrace in Jurong West, or a condo in Dhoby Ghaut - it's very debatable which one is more 'atas'
At the end of the day like what Regulators said if you need to sweat over such a purchase then you are not ready at all. Dun do it for the sake of prestige or face, do it because you really like it and can well afford it. :2cents:
It is good to stay with parents and in-laws if possible.
I fully support the idea of staying landed and having all families members to be under one roof.
People I know who have gone down the landed route usually do so as a result of one or both KEY factors as outlined below :
1. They need more space for their family
2. They are of the opinion that capital appreciation prospects for landed are better than other property types.
Of course, a lot of people will dispute over pt 2 and have their own views which is why you will have to do your own research/analysis and make your own informed decision. If you have read an article last weekend about an old couple who bought 2 landed based on their needs (without really thinking about capital appreciation) and are now multimillionaires, that perhaps is the attitude you should adopt going into landed.
As mentioned by some forumers here, buying a single property for stay does not make it an investment property since you will not be reaping recurring income from it. Some however hold the view that it is one of the best options to hold long term even as a single property - first to accomodate your growing family and then selling it off at a pretty gain to downgrade when you retire and your kids have moved out.
Therein lies the core difference - Because an ageing landed property (except for 99yr LH ones) is very different from an ageing apt/condo. Excluding cluster housing, the inherent value of a FH/999 landed is still in the land. Even though the landed structure may deteriorate a lot, potential buyers place a lot more emphasis on your land plot rather than the structure. Also you will have complete flexibility (by pumping in some money) to improve the structure by doing A&A or reconstruction if the profit gained from the improvement outstrips the cost. This is never possible with an ageing condo/apt unless you have full control over the MC and your condo coffers are healthy.
Now to addess your other points.
Maintenance cost - To me, its more or less that same, the savings from not paying monthly condo fees will be negated from the maintenance cost of a house. A lot depends on the condition of the house you are buying. If it comes down to the crunch and you really want my opinion, you will save more if you buy a newly constructed house vs a newly constructed cond/apt and it is not difficult to understand why since you start paying condo maintenance once you take possession
Amenities/tpt - this depends a lot on locale and whether you want bragging rights for a more prestigious district vs proximity to amenities.
If you look at our transport master plan, I think most parts of SG will be very connected by 2020. A lot of estates will boast walking distance to stations etc.
I do not think that the govt will change the foreigner ruling (there was a statment by the minister in the press not so long ago) However, with the govt push towards more new citizens (especially higher earners/professional), my gut feel is that the pool of landed buyers who aspire for landed housing will grow.
Good post bro ...
As for me and some of my childhood friends, we grew up in landed. Not that all of us can't afford it but not one of us stay in landed eventhough we have a stake/inherited the childhood home. All stay in condo coz we know.
A few that came from HDB and made good, bought landed.
As with all things, realise it's good and bad.
From an investment viewpoint, landed is has lower variance (beta) over condo. But you consume it, as others have pointed out.
From a 'you only have one life' standpoint, basically do what makes you/family happy within your means, wants and goals.
People I know who have gone down the landed route usually do so as a result of one or both KEY factors as outlined below :
1. They need more space for their family
2. They are of the opinion that capital appreciation prospects for landed are better than other property types.
Of course, a lot of people will dispute over pt 2 and have their own views which is why you will have to do your own research/analysis and make your own informed decision. If you have read an article last weekend about an old couple who bought 2 landed based on their needs (without really thinking about capital appreciation) and are now multimillionaires, that perhaps is the attitude you should adopt going into landed.
As mentioned by some forumers here, buying a single property for stay does not make it an investment property since you will not be reaping recurring income from it. Some however hold the view that it is one of the best options to hold long term even as a single property - first to accomodate your growing family and then selling it off at a pretty gain to downgrade when you retire and your kids have moved out.
Therein lies the core difference - Because an ageing landed property (except for 99yr LH ones) is very different from an ageing apt/condo. Excluding cluster housing, the inherent value of a FH/999 landed is still in the land. Even though the landed structure may deteriorate a lot, potential buyers place a lot more emphasis on your land plot rather than the structure. Also you will have complete flexibility (by pumping in some money) to improve the structure by doing A&A or reconstruction if the profit gained from the improvement outstrips the cost. This is never possible with an ageing condo/apt unless you have full control over the MC and your condo coffers are healthy.
Now to addess your other points.
Maintenance cost - To me, it more or less that same, the savings from not paying monthly condo fees will be negated from the maintenance cost of a house. A lot depends on the condition of the house you are buying. If it comes down to the crunch and you really want my opinion, you will save more if you buy a newly constructed house vs a newly constructed cond/apt and it is not difficult to understand why since you start paying condo maintenance fom the get-go.
Amenities/tpt - this depends a lot on locale and whether you want bragging rights for a more prestigious district vs proximity to amenities.
If you look at our transport master plan, I think most parts of SG will be very connected by 2020. A lot of estates will boast walking distance to stations etc.
I do not think that the govt will change the foreigner ruling (there was a statment by the minister in the press not so long ago) However, with the govt push towards more new citizens (especially higher earners/professional), my gut feel is that the ppol of landed buyers will grow.
From a 'you only have one life' standpoint, basically do what makes you/family happy within your means, wants and goals.
Well said.. fully agree.
Given the current prices of landed properties, it doesn't make sense to enter now under your current situation.
Addressing just your point on wealth maximzation, I don't think it is advisable to plough all your funds into a high quantum house for own stay. Trick to grow wealth is to grow your investment portfolio i.e buy more properties.
not wise to dump all into one:D
new2mondrian
17-08-12, 15:28
Given the current prices of landed properties, it doesn't make sense to enter now under your current situation.
Addressing just your point on wealth maximzation, I don't think it is advisable to plough all your funds into a high quantum house for own stay. Trick to grow wealth is to grow your investment portfolio i.e buy more properties.
Fully agree. My 5 properties cost me less than $4M. Putting $4M into a single property, for own stay and with restrictions on its sale to only Singaporeans, seem unwise from a financial perspective.
My two cents. But if the overriding consideration is to seize the day and live life to its fullest, then I'd say go do it. :)
phantom_opera
17-08-12, 15:35
Don't expect high return for next 20y ... for any asset class :2cents:
Best performance will be MM still for next 10y ... ... just look at how many male singles we have between 30-34 ... another 5y they can buy 3r resale HDB at 500k with the pathetic 11k grant, or they will buy 700k MM instead :D
Yup-everyday thinking this asset, that asset and only ass plan comes out.
Dividend/coupon/yield will be important to help carry and preserve capital ...and avoid leakages...like taxes/duties/commissions.
Don't expect high return for next 20y ... for any asset class :2cents:
Best performance will be MM still for next 10y ... ... just look at how many male singles we have between 30-34 ... another 5y they can buy 3r resale HDB at 500k with the pathetic 11k grant, or they will buy 700k MM instead :D
dear TS
Maybe u should ask yrself is it a Want or a Need to stay in landed?
Is it better to own 2 or 3 properties rather than 1?
Do u have the $$$ to do maint every 5 yrs?
Can u sleep with peace n enjoy if u buy the landed?
If out of job can u service the loan?
What is yr age now?
What is the most impt element in yr family to be happy n have harmony?
Think carefully before u commit, $4m leh not $400k!
i have completed the property cycle so i speak from experience...my portfolio is...
HDB >> PC >> Landed >> HDB(REALLY LANDED LIAO):doh:
My experience ...HDB...people are warm:)
PC...People a bit try to act like they BIG F stay condo...especially FOREIGNERS...:cool:
Landed..Best of both worlds...ACTUALLY the BEST EVER considering i staying in a RENTED 4000sq ft semi D in Siglap...PEOPLE around here really BIG F...NOT PRETEND type:scared-1:
sorry my experience is from a HUMAN perspective as far as financial perspective is concerned NOT really bothered cos i cannot AFFORD landed..but my take is if U can AFFORD landed ...."JUST DO IT"...
...Selamat Hari RAya...:D:D:D
ClemenceLY
17-08-12, 21:10
Just wondering at what level of annual income would be financially "comfortable" staying in a landed worth 3 to 4 mi....?:rolleyes:
If the affordability is not an issue, and with multiple disposal income from rental of HDB flats and private apartments coupled with the threadstarter earning capacity and ability.
I strongly urge to get a landed and get all family members living under one roof.
Allthepies
17-08-12, 22:21
Just wondering at what level of annual income would be financially "comfortable" staying in a landed worth 3 to 4 mi....?:rolleyes:
"5 years of annual income" quoting tan kin lian :D
800k income per annum?!?!
Sleepyhead
17-08-12, 22:50
If I were you, I would spend $3m on a smaller landed, terrace perhaps, instead of semiD.
Then retain the condo for rental.
Best of both worlds!
:D :D :D
Staying in a house without investment properties will not offer opportunity to leverage and benefit from such investment. I think one needs to have at least a stable household income of $300k per annum to be able to start owning a $2.6mil house.
seeksadvice
19-08-12, 00:00
Thanks for all the advice. Some were truly sobering & led me to think deeper, while others were really funny.
My thoughts:
1. On investment, i hold pretty contrarian views on rental yields. Perhaps because so many pple i know already hold 2nd or more properties for rental. To jump onto the boat now at current prices doesn't sound logical. Also, rental yields in spore are so low...4% for mass mkt while more central ones command 2-3%. when interest rates rise (& they will) plus the massive crop of condo launches TOP, returns from rental will be squeezed.
2. Landed represents a long term protection against the volatile markets. It may have only a small pool of eligible buyers, ie sporeans, but if new citizens are more affluent, or sporeans earn enough from flipping condos, AND aspire towards landed, it will have a steady demand, while supply is finite ( bar cluster houses).
3. My wife & i are in our early forties & combined income is around $500-600k. I exaggerated when i said we have to scrimp & save.....we probably won't need to sacrifice anything in daily lives. But some form of cutting back, say vacation & restaurant meals, will be necessary.
4. When we retire, we want to be asset light but be comfortable in cashflow. We are 100% prepared to downgrade back to condos or HDB. Heck, to kill time, amenities such as the swimming pool or the neighbourhood coffeeshop may even leapfrog to become my no. 1 priority.
All said, i have not made any offer yet. I m waiting for bank val, some contractor advice, etc, bedpfore making an offer.
Question - when agents tell u last offer was $x, is it always reliable? Or is it a tactic to extract a better offer?
Thanks.
I suppose the afforability factor probably weighs less on our mind than factors such as longer term capital apreciation,
phantom_opera
19-08-12, 08:07
Thanks for all the advice. Some were truly sobering & led me to think deeper, while others were really funny.
My thoughts:
1. On investment, i hold pretty contrarian views on rental yields. Perhaps because so many pple i know already hold 2nd or more properties for rental. To jump onto the boat now at current prices doesn't sound logical. Also, rental yields in spore are so low...4% for mass mkt while more central ones command 2-3%. when interest rates rise (& they will) plus the massive crop of condo launches TOP, returns from rental will be squeezed.
2. Landed represents a long term protection against the volatile markets. It may have only a small pool of eligible buyers, ie sporeans, but if new citizens are more affluent, or sporeans earn enough from flipping condos, AND aspire towards landed, it will have a steady demand, while supply is finite ( bar cluster houses).
3. My wife & i are in our early forties & combined income is around $500-600k. I exaggerated when i said we have to scrimp & save.....we probably won't need to sacrifice anything in daily lives. But some form of cutting back, say vacation & restaurant meals, will be necessary.
4. When we retire, we want to be asset light but be comfortable in cashflow. We are 100% prepared to downgrade back to condos or HDB. Heck, to kill time, amenities such as the swimming pool or the neighbourhood coffeeshop may even leapfrog to become my no. 1 priority.
All said, i have not made any offer yet. I m waiting for bank val, some contractor advice, etc, bedpfore making an offer.
Question - when agents tell u last offer was $x, is it always reliable? Or is it a tactic to extract a better offer?
Thanks.
I suppose the afforability factor probably weighs less on our mind than factors such as longer term capital apreciation,
with your income, you can afford to buy an English castle (means anywhere, anything) :cheers5: dun understand why so obsessed about SG landed property
new2mondrian
19-08-12, 08:17
Thanks for all the advice. Some were truly sobering & led me to think deeper, while others were really funny.
My thoughts:
1. On investment, i hold pretty contrarian views on rental yields. Perhaps because so many pple i know already hold 2nd or more properties for rental. To jump onto the boat now at current prices doesn't sound logical. Also, rental yields in spore are so low...4% for mass mkt while more central ones command 2-3%. when interest rates rise (& they will) plus the massive crop of condo launches TOP, returns from rental will be squeezed.
2. Landed represents a long term protection against the volatile markets. It may have only a small pool of eligible buyers, ie sporeans, but if new citizens are more affluent, or sporeans earn enough from flipping condos, AND aspire towards landed, it will have a steady demand, while supply is finite ( bar cluster houses).
3. My wife & i are in our early forties & combined income is around $500-600k. I exaggerated when i said we have to scrimp & save.....we probably won't need to sacrifice anything in daily lives. But some form of cutting back, say vacation & restaurant meals, will be necessary.
4. When we retire, we want to be asset light but be comfortable in cashflow. We are 100% prepared to downgrade back to condos or HDB. Heck, to kill time, amenities such as the swimming pool or the neighbourhood coffeeshop may even leapfrog to become my no. 1 priority.
All said, i have not made any offer yet. I m waiting for bank val, some contractor advice, etc, bedpfore making an offer.
Question - when agents tell u last offer was $x, is it always reliable? Or is it a tactic to extract a better offer?
Thanks.
I suppose the afforability factor probably weighs less on our mind than factors such as longer term capital apreciation,
I haven't been looking at landed for a while, so my views may not be reflective of today's market conditions. Anyway, here are some inputs which you have to calibrate against your own financial situation and experience.
1. Agree that landed is in limited supply as time goes by. Having said that, there are many other factors that one will have to take into consideration when buying landed. Is the land next to drainage systems? If so, setback rules apply. What is the road categorisation in front of the property? If it is a major cat 1 road, setback rules can be punitive. Also have to study the masterplan in greater detail.
2. I always insist on doing a property evaluation report before even offering. Soil test is important. Marine clay (predominant in East Coast/Siglap area) means micropiling is required if I intend to rebuild, which means construction will cost 30% more. There are other periphery factors such as the condition of the adjacent building (you can tear down and rebuild, but if your immediate neighbour(s) property is infested with termites, it is a matter of time that the termites problem will return). In this regard, a detached dwelling is always preferred. Having said that, pest infestation is always something I look for. Rodents and termites are not easy to eradicate once they are in the neighbourhood. And dengue is always a perennial concern (due to various factors such as dead leaves on rooftops which collect rainwater, drainage within grounds, poor maintenance of some of the neighbouring units).
3. Everything costs more in landed. I know this may sounds "duh", but sometimes the cost factor may really be a huge consideration. A lot of landed were constructed 30-40 years back, and a simple act of cabling SCV points would require tapping the cables from its nearest source (usually from the road) and most contractors quote $20k and above. Electricity is another issue. Most properties do not have sufficient wattage to support multiple compressors. To air-con the whole house, esp if it is a sizable semi-detached and above, usually will have to tap from the nearest source again. And painting the house esp the exterior is not cheap either. And the list goes on and on.... Simple renovations to bring it to a livable condition will set u back by 150-200k. A&A will be ard 400k. I know of friends who demolished and rebuilt for $1m and above. What I am saying here is that you must have deep enough pockets after paying $4m for the property to do all these.
4. Landed is for self stay, cos rental yields simply do not make sense at current pricing levels. Should you need cash one day, landed may not be that easily monetisable by way of rental or sale.
Having said that, it is a lifestyle choice. The largest reason as to why I din look at landed for the last couple of years is simply due to the price appreciation have reached stratospheric levels in my personal view. The days which I could get a sixth avenue landed for less than $2m, or a 3500sqft corner terrace at Opera Estate (D15) for $2m were over. For current pricing, condos still make more sense imho.
Hope the above helps. And good luck in your search!
I haven't been looking at landed for a while, so my views may not be reflective of today's market conditions. Anyway, here are some inputs which you have to calibrate against your own financial situation and experience.
1. Agree that landed is in limited supply as time goes by. Having said that, there are many other factors that one will have to take into consideration when buying landed. Is the land next to drainage systems? If so, setback rules apply. What is the road categorisation in front of the property? If it is a major cat 1 road, setback rules can be punitive. Also have to study the masterplan in greater detail.
2. I always insist on doing a property evaluation report before even offering. Soil test is important. Marine clay (predominant in East Coast/Siglap area) means micropiling is required if I intend to rebuild, which means construction will cost 30% more. There are other periphery factors such as the condition of the adjacent building (you can tear down and rebuild, but if your immediate neighbour(s) property is infested with termites, it is a matter of time that the termites problem will return). In this regard, a detached dwelling is always preferred. Having said that, pest infestation is always something I look for. Rodents and termites are not easy to eradicate once they are in the neighbourhood. And dengue is always a perennial concern (due to various factors such as dead leaves on rooftops which collect rainwater, drainage within grounds, poor maintenance of some of the neighbouring units).
3. Everything costs more in landed. I know this may sounds "duh", but sometimes the cost factor may really be a huge consideration. A lot of landed were constructed 30-40 years back, and a simple act of cabling SCV points would require tapping the cables from its nearest source (usually from the road) and most contractors quote $20k and above. Electricity is another issue. Most properties do not have sufficient wattage to support multiple compressors. To air-con the whole house, esp if it is a sizable semi-detached and above, usually will have to tap from the nearest source again. And painting the house esp the exterior is not cheap either. And the list goes on and on.... Simple renovations to bring it to a livable condition will set u back by 150-200k. A&A will be ard 400k. I know of friends who demolished and rebuilt for $1m and above. What I am saying here is that you must have deep enough pockets after paying $4m for the property to do all these.
4. Landed is for self stay, cos rental yields simply do not make sense at current pricing levels. Should you need cash one day, landed may not be that easily monetisable by way of rental or sale.
Having said that, it is a lifestyle choice. The largest reason as to why I din look at landed for the last couple of years is simply due to the price appreciation have reached stratospheric levels in my personal view. The days which I could get a sixth avenue landed for less than $2m, or a 3500sqft corner terrace at Opera Estate (D15) for $2m were over. For current pricing, condos still make more sense imho.
Hope the above helps. And good luck in your search!
说的好！well said... I fully agree...
I disagree with the neighbours part. In condos, apartments you have more problems with neighbours... upstairs noisy neighbours... left right neighbours. Dengue is probably a bigger problem at HDB than in Landed due to the low population density. Especially if your landed is quite big, expensive, I think the neighbours there will upkeep their place pretty well.
2. I always insist on doing a property evaluation report before even offering. Soil test is important. Marine clay (predominant in East Coast/Siglap area) means micropiling is required if I intend to rebuild, which means construction will cost 30% more. There are other periphery factors such as the condition of the adjacent building (you can tear down and rebuild, but if your immediate neighbour(s) property is infested with termites, it is a matter of time that the termites problem will return). In this regard, a detached dwelling is always preferred. Having said that, pest infestation is always something I look for. Rodents and termites are not easy to eradicate once they are in the neighbourhood. And dengue is always a perennial concern (due to various factors such as dead leaves on rooftops which collect rainwater, drainage within grounds, poor maintenance of some of the neighbouring units).
Owning a landed property give you the opportunity to rebuilt your own dream home. Not possible with a condo.
new2mondrian
19-08-12, 11:37
I disagree with the neighbours part. In condos, apartments you have more problems with neighbours... upstairs noisy neighbours... left right neighbours. Dengue is probably a bigger problem at HDB than in Landed due to the low population density. Especially if your landed is quite big, expensive, I think the neighbours there will upkeep their place pretty well.
I don't discount that landed gives greater privacy as compared to HDB and condos. If you read my post carefully, the neighbours part was written from the context of potential pest related issues, not noise. It is something to look out for especially if the property is an inter-terrace and shares the same retaining wall as the next door unit. As with most A&A projects, the architect would advise to raise the retaining wall to reduce the likelihood of Pest contamination, but it is not a foolproof method.
I agree that dengue takes place anywhere, and everywhere. But if one looks at the NEA data objectively, most of the dengue clusters take place in landed estates. My last landed faced the same issue as well, so much so that the NEA officers used to come round every household to ask everyone to clear out the dead leaves on the rooftops and ensure that the exposed pipes that run along the roof do not collect still water. It was an instruction which no one could fulfill.
There are trade offs for everything in life, and everyone is entitled to their opinions in an open forum. I agree that landed provides one with the opportunity to build and design a house. But that opportunity does not come cheap in Singapore. Question is when one embarks on such a $4m opportunity, whether similar trade offs have been considered. If indeed so, then do proceed, but at least it is with eyes open. :)
Having said that, it is a lifestyle choice. The largest reason as to why I din look at landed for the last couple of years is simply due to the price appreciation have reached stratospheric levels in my personal view. The days which I could get a sixth avenue landed for less than $2m, or a 3500sqft corner terrace at Opera Estate (D15) for $2m were over. For current pricing, condos still make more sense imho.
Hope the above helps. And good luck in your search!
price appreciation is due to a simple demand and supply law and also because of the limited factor and moving forward, that will not change unless we reclaim more land or tear down HDB/Condo and convert those lands for landed or cut away inflow of new citizens, etc...so, in terms of price appreciation, it is very obvious. :2cents:
and if you say condo still make more sense this one i really scratching my head as this is very subjective and depend on how you look at it....comparing a EC (or Condo) at 700psf today and a landed of 800psf, I would think it is crazy to go for EC...both are 99LH and if you look around, it is still there. :doh: Im not comparing to the extreme as in MM as it is more of a quantum base in that case.
phantom_opera
19-08-12, 13:53
Landed have to appreciate more to compensate for lack of yield and higher cost, sure return higher than sti ETF? I doubt
That is why it is not for everyone. This is the exclusivity of owning a landed especiailly a fully paid -up one that has gone up by more than 100% in capital gain in the last 10 years.
I don't discount that landed gives greater privacy as compared to HDB and condos. If you read my post carefully, the neighbours part was written from the context of potential pest related issues, not noise. It is something to look out for especially if the property is an inter-terrace and shares the same retaining wall as the next door unit. As with most A&A projects, the architect would advise to raise the retaining wall to reduce the likelihood of Pest contamination, but it is not a foolproof method.
I agree that dengue takes place anywhere, and everywhere. But if one looks at the NEA data objectively, most of the dengue clusters take place in landed estates. My last landed faced the same issue as well, so much so that the NEA officers used to come round every household to ask everyone to clear out the dead leaves on the rooftops and ensure that the exposed pipes that run along the roof do not collect still water. It was an instruction which no one could fulfill.
There are trade offs for everything in life, and everyone is entitled to their opinions in an open forum. I agree that landed provides one with the opportunity to build and design a house. But that opportunity does not come cheap in Singapore. Question is when one embarks on such a $4m opportunity, whether similar trade offs have been considered. If indeed so, then do proceed, but at least it is with eyes open. :)
To TS, u r very modest. If i were in ur profile, i will just go for it, since this is something you want, and you can afford. Landed is a quality asset that can last ages so no worry IMO for the wealth preservation part. For yield u play something else lah.
As some one earlier said, the days u can get a 2mil bungalow is over. So now buying landed is not much diff from buying condo, one needs some luck to spot a gd deal.
Totally agree...
people forget the primary purpose of buying a property... it is to provide the buyer with a HOME. TS is well within the income range to aspire living in a $4m landed....all its associated costs considered.
if one is looking at it from an investment point of view, property is only one of the many ways to accumulate wealth...
TS should go for it.... you don't want to look back in life thinking whether you should have done this or that... especially since you can well afford it...
To TS, u r very modest. If i were in ur profile, i will just go for it, since this is something you want, and you can afford. Landed is a quality asset that can last ages so no worry IMO for the wealth preservation part. For yield u play something else lah.
As some one earlier said, the days u can get a 2mil bungalow is over. So now buying landed is not much diff from buying condo, one needs some luck to spot a gd deal.
seeksadvice
19-08-12, 22:03
A decade ago, when we bought our condo (current place) for $550k, we caught the trough of the market. Our combined income then was $150k. That meant just about 3-4 yrs of income. We also knew that our income would rise as we advance in our career.
Undertaking a 4m ppty is more like 7-8 yrs of income. But different from the last purchase, our runway till retirement is a shorter journey & we have probably reached the pinnacle of our careers. Hence concerns about capital appreciation ......
Thank u all again for the insightful analyses, words of encouragement & humor.
new2mondrian
19-08-12, 22:24
price appreciation is due to a simple demand and supply law and also because of the limited factor and moving forward, that will not change unless we reclaim more land or tear down HDB/Condo and convert those lands for landed or cut away inflow of new citizens, etc...so, in terms of price appreciation, it is very obvious. :2cents:
and if you say condo still make more sense this one i really scratching my head as this is very subjective and depend on how you look at it....comparing a EC (or Condo) at 700psf today and a landed of 800psf, I would think it is crazy to go for EC...both are 99LH and if you look around, it is still there. :doh: Im not comparing to the extreme as in MM as it is more of a quantum base in that case.
Agree you are right! :) apologies my sentence wasn't clear. When i wrote "condos make more sense", i was referring to seekadvice's first post, where he mentioned that someone suggested getting a $2M condo and retain his current condo to get some rental income. If he really has to buy, this option makes more sense to me.
This topic is interesting to me cos my hubby and I went through the very same thought process a couple of years ago. We were in our early 30s then, and wondering should we, could we.... Anyway, pricing levels then were very different.
My take to this question would be somewhat different. I always believed in BOP (bottom of pyramid) strategy. When it comes to price appreciation, the biggest upside comes from the sub $2.5M for landed, and sub $1.2M for freehold condos (i am not including MMs here. Condos to me only make sense when there are at least 3 decent sized bedrooms). Looking at average household incomes and real wage increases, sanity must prevail especially over a prolonged period of slow growth in a macroeconomic scenario. Seekadvice may have high household income, but the larger question is how sustainable is this income level, and he based his affordability assumptions on taking a $2M loan, coupled with $1M savings and selling his current condo for $1M. If he takes a bank loan at 60% LTV, he will still have to cough up $1.6M, with the remaining $400k going probably to renovations and some contingency funds.
In this respect, why not get a smaller (and cheaper) landed at $2.2-2.5m first? Landed living is not everyone's cup of tea. If it is, he remains vested in the game to trade up; if it isn't, well it is always easier to dispose of a $2.5-2.7m property than a $4.5m one (assuming break even at 10% margin).
Just a friendly advice as a parting shot. Banks are usually a lot more careful when it comes to landed. Unless one can fully fund the property without a bank loan, it is always better to check and double check that the bank loan can go through before putting down the option monies. Most banks i know will do inspection of the landed property before final approval of the loan. And things which they look out for include illegal alterations (eg insufficient setback). So if the $2m depends on this, always better to be safe than sorry. :)
investing in landed property will only make sense when interest rates are low. Once it rises to say 3% of so, price of landed will most likely be the first to crash because of the huge loan amount plus negative rental yield.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 10:36
investing in landed property will only make sense when interest rates are low. Once it rises to say 3% of so, price of landed will most likely be the first to crash because of the huge loan amount plus negative rental yield.
Well said, pap will be most happy to see u buy 4m landed, u can't go anywhere else but remain in sg, but the poster probably is MIW himself lol, wonder why sm goh had this asset enhancement prog? Hehehe
seeksadvice
20-08-12, 10:40
Has there been any experience of landed crashing due to high interest rates? i have not been in the market long enough to understand this.
But I would've thought that given the relatively illiquid nature of landed properties, the larger monthly commitment involved, landed owners will be one of the most prudent in doing their sums. For example, in my calculations, I've factored in scenarios where interest rates go up to 5%.....and hence, even considering 5-yr fixed rate packages....sadly these come with punitive prepayment fees.
investing in landed property will only make sense when interest rates are low. Once it rises to say 3% of so, price of landed will most likely be the first to crash because of the huge loan amount plus negative rental yield.
Ppl buy to stay la...:p if landed crash hard, condo might be worst... Because there are more trading in condo then landed :D
Only if such buyers have over leverage themselves. No problem with the wealthy ones. What do you Medan by crash? How many percent down? I will be keen to buy another. :D
investing in landed property will only make sense when interest rates are low. Once it rises to say 3% of so, price of landed will most likely be the first to crash because of the huge loan amount plus negative rental yield.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 10:46
For god sake, a landed in auckland is only 800k to a million, what is the chance if landed 4m go to 8m in 10y time other than drastic change if plot ratio?
Possible with inflation and devaluation of currency. Money can buy less things compared to a decade ago. Look at landed in hong kong similar to Singapore in land area and population, culture, etc. We may not be so expensive now but if we move towards that direction.
For god sake, a landed in auckland is only 800k to a million, what is the chance if landed 4m go to 8m in 10y time other than drastic change if plot ratio?
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 11:01
Possible with inflation and devaluation of currency. Money can buy less things compared to a decade ago. Look at landed in hong kong similar to Singapore in land area and population, culture, etc. We may not be so expensive now but if we move towards that direction.
Dun fall into trap of the thread starter, he is STUCK trying to sell landed, a family with 500k income will come to forum? Please lah
Why not? Not surprise these days with quite a lot of people with such household income to invest in properties and learn from this forum,
Dun fall into trap of the thread starter, he is STUCK trying to sell landed, a family with 500k income will come to forum? Please lah
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 11:21
U can choose to believe, nobody making 500k will choose to boast their income in Internet to invite investigation by iras, I am in that sector, press a button u can track down the end user device summiting the post, and this forum belong to either sph or mediacorp
Dun fall into trap of the thread starter, he is STUCK trying to sell landed, a family with 500k income will come to forum? Please lah
we should be paid for, hahaha....probably some focus group survey he is doing...:D look at his questions, well structured...
You could be right too. People with high income or many properties do not need to tell everyone. Do you still remember this guy who said he has a household income of $800k a year. Came and gone quickly. .
U can choose to believe, nobody making 500k will choose to boast their income in Internet to invite investigation by iras, I am in that sector, press a button u can track down the end user device summiting the post, and this forum belong to either sph or mediacorp
U can choose to believe, nobody making 500k will choose to boast their income in Internet
.. Hmm that's quite true.... Your observation is sharp.... although honestly I hope this is genuine... Haiz why ppl have to do this....
From the a few PMs I had here, I'm sure there are members with that earning capacity or more, but it is true none will say something like "my income xxxk a year"
new2mondrian
20-08-12, 14:38
Haha agree on the disclosure of income part. But anyways, take a look at the positive side. I always am inclined to believe that the situation described is genuine unless further contradictions arise that prove it otherwise. But hey, even if it is not, hopefully someone else in the same situation can benefit from it. I learnt a lot from this forum, so I thought it is good to also share constructively if I could also.
Phantom, Auckland landed pricing cannot compare to Sweden's! £50k pounds can get a Freehold landed! Cheaper than a car in Sgp. Plus Sweden is a beautiful country (with no natural disasters) for kids to roam ard. Was seriously thinking of getting a vacation home over there and furnishing it IKEA style last year. Lol...
seeksadvice
20-08-12, 16:54
Dun fall into trap of the thread starter, he is STUCK trying to sell landed, a family with 500k income will come to forum? Please lah
It is interesting how some of us are very cynical yet very willing to share their views, even if it is just to alert others to the possibility of this being a fake thread.
Mine is a genuine case. We are a very conservative couple who have waited patiently by the sideline for the last 3 years while property prices refuse to cool, and we see our savings eroded by inflation.
While our income may be above average (judging by responses in this forum), I don't understand the cynicism.
To the doubting thomases,
1. Trust me....in today's property market & interest rate environment, nobody is considered "stuck" with a landed property. This comment i found most funny. Sorry, phantom, didn't mean to be rude:p
2. My questions & thoughts are well-structured because I have been thinking very long & hard over 3 years, not 3 months. Has it occured to you that, why i am earning above-average, is because i can ask logical questions?
3. In any case, only a woefully small no. of pple have responded to my first question "do you aspire towards landed property?" This question was meant to help me gauge the eventual demand for landed homes in 10 years time. Maybe that meant my "Focus Group study" has failed miserably??
Anyhow, short of posting my IRA8, I don't think anything i say will convince detractors.
It's the end of hari-raya hols. I am promised a bank valuation of both my target place & my current place tomorrow. I'd write again if there's any major surprises.
Actually the timing of the buy is very impt.
Your condo is 1million and you are upgrading to a 4 million landed so you are putting in 3 million more.
If you have upgraded 2 years earlier, you probably could have saved at least 1million dollars...
You should have purchased one in 2009 especially if your job is recession proof. There is quite a bit of correction then.
It is interesting how some of us are very cynical yet very willing to share their views, even if it is just to alert others to the possibility of this being a fake thread.
Mine is a genuine case. We are a very conservative couple who have waited patiently by the sideline for the last 3 years while property prices refuse to cool, and we see our savings eroded by inflation.
While our income may be above average (judging by responses in this forum), I don't understand the cynicism.
To the doubting thomases,
1. Trust me....in today's property market & interest rate environment, nobody is considered "stuck" with a landed property. This comment i found most funny. Sorry, phantom, didn't mean to be rude:p
2. My questions & thoughts are well-structured because I have been thinking very long & hard over 3 years, not 3 months. Has it occured to you that, why i am earning above-average, is because i can ask logical questions?
3. In any case, only a woefully small no. of pple have responded to my first question "do you aspire towards landed property?" This question was meant to help me gauge the eventual demand for landed homes in 10 years time. Maybe that meant my "Focus Group study" has failed miserably??
Anyhow, short of posting my IRA8, I don't think anything i say will convince detractors.
It's the end of hari-raya hols. I am promised a bank valuation of both my target place & my current place tomorrow. I'd write again if there's any major surprises.
Huh?... 500k household income cannot come to this forum meh?
Dun fall into trap of the thread starter, he is STUCK trying to sell landed, a family with 500k income will come to forum? Please lah
Ppl buy to stay la...:p if landed crash hard, condo might be worst... Because there are more trading in condo then landed :D
buying for own stay is actually worst because you are consuming whatever you have invested, and you will get the full blown effect of interest rate when it rises.
I am also guessing that most people who own landed property are holding on to just 1 property because that is the only way they can qualify for 80% LTV.
For condo investors, if you already have more than 1 property, your LTV will only be 60%, so when interest rises, the impact will be lesser.
1. Trust me....in today's property market & interest rate environment, nobody is considered "stuck" with a landed property. This comment i found most funny. Sorry, phantom, didn't mean to be rude:p
yup how very true. I think landed prices is at a all time high. The gains over the past few years is probably higher than condo prices.
You czn also hve fuly paid off landed owning PCs.
buying for own stay is actually worst because you are consuming whatever you have invested, and you will get the full blown effect of interest rate when it rises.
I am also guessing that most people who own landed property are holding on to just 1 property because that is the only way they can qualify for 80% LTV.
For condo investors, if you already have more than 1 property, your LTV will only be 60%, so when interest rises, the impact will be lesser.
What about going forward say 10 years from now? Say a person has $4m budget for a property for self stay, so buy:
- Landed or condo
- smaller CCR or larger OCR
- buy new or resale
yup how very true. I think landed prices is at a all time high. The gains over the past few years is probably higher than condo prices.
What about going forward say 10 years from now? Say a person has $4m budget for a property for self stay, so buy:
- Landed or condo
- smaller CCR or larger OCR
- buy new or resale
I will buy a decent condo in CCR, esp. resale ones, with more than 2000 real sqft. 4m today you can't really get any nice landed with enough spaces.
There are a lot of large resale units in this 3-4m range inn CCR. Huge living room, family room, generous bedrooms all with ensuite. For own stay, I think it is a better buy, than a 4m landed today which is not here not there.
yup how very true. I think landed prices is at a all time high. The gains over the past few years is probably higher than condo prices.
... therefore isn't it more so that landed are more difficult to move in this market ? phantom may be a little exaggerating by using the word "stuck", but the fact is, large quantum sales are not moving.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 20:31
To the thread starter, forgive me of being skeptical. A monthly income of $27,850 is entering the top 5% of family in Singapore based on stats from 2011. Your annual family income of 500-600k means monthly income of 50k ... that easily is top 1-2%. If I were in that situation, I will be surrounded by private bankers or financial consultants and it is probably NOT that difficult to have insider news especially if you work in civil sector. Why seek advice in internet and expose your income unnecessarily?
BTW, median family income per month including employer CPF for those who stay in landed in 2011 is 25k ... ;)
And you said 10y ago your family income is 150k and now is 500-600k ... what sector is this hah? I want my son to be in leh :p
new2mondrian
20-08-12, 20:58
Seekadvice,
On your poll "whether you aspire towards landed property", I really don't have a straightforward answer for you. I do not aspire to STAY in a landed property, though having said that, landed to me is just like any investment instrument. If it makes money, why not? So if one day, yields make sense vis a vis other classes of assets, I'd say why not. But at current levels of investment outlay versus yields (which is negative taking into account pest control charges for the tenant, exterior painting and replacement of roofing beams/tiles every 15 years or so), I'd say it does not make investment sense. So at the end of the day, the aspiration question only applies to the stayers, not the investors. :)
Two things which I am curious about, which I hope you don't mind me asking (though if you do mind, you can always choose not to answer)-
1) You mentioned you are a conservative couple and you have waited patiently on the sidelines for 3 years. So what is the trigger event for jumping into a $4m property now? The macroeconomic factors aren't particularly rosy, EU and US are mired in significant sovereign debt, demand drivers seem muted for the short to medium term. India is experiencing countless policy missteps. China is facing external headwinds. So why? Why now? Why $4m and not $2m?
2) For a household with income level of $500-600k, a total savings of $1.5m (since your present condo costs you $550k and you have an additional $1m in savings) after about 20 years of working is not particularly high. I am saying this cos your affordability assumptions for borrowing the next $2m seemed to be based on the number of years the current salary is required to repay, though you might also wish to consider your savings level, household expenditure levels and the sustainability of your current income for the next 20 years esp since you are buying a property for self stay.
Good luck on your bank valn! Do update us. :)
amk,
I am also keen to get a decent freehold in the ccr of at least 2000sqft of built in space. Actually prices have been softening in this segment, and people often overlook that a large contiguous land plot in the ccr (eg parvis at holland hill has land size of 244k sqft, with only 248 units) with much higher plot ratios and building height limits than landed could sometimes be more attractive.
new2mondrian
20-08-12, 21:01
To the thread starter, forgive me of being skeptical. A monthly income of $27,850 is entering the top 5% of family in Singapore based on stats from 2011. Your annual family income of 500-600k means monthly income of 50k ... that easily is top 1-2%. If I were in that situation, I will be surrounded by private bankers or financial consultants and it is probably NOT that difficult to have insider news especially if you work in civil sector. Why seek advice in internet and expose your income unnecessarily?
BTW, median family income per month including employer CPF for those who stay in landed in 2011 is 25k ... ;)
And you said 10y ago your family income is 150k and now is 500-600k ... what sector is this hah? I want my son to be in leh :p
Haha it is possible if he's in the Admin Service, a partner in an audit or law firm, or working in the financial sector. But which means his savings rate is not high.
or loan shark....
Haha it is possible if he's in the Admin Service, a partner in an audit or law firm, or working in the financial sector. But which means his savings rate is not high.
To the thread starter, forgive me of being skeptical. A monthly income of $27,850 is entering the top 5% of family in Singapore based on stats from 2011. Your annual family income of 500-600k means monthly income of 50k ... that easily is top 1-2%. If I were in that situation, I will be surrounded by private bankers or financial consultants and it is probably NOT that difficult to have insider news especially if you work in civil sector. Why seek advice in internet and expose your income unnecessarily?
BTW, median family income per month including employer CPF for those who stay in landed in 2011 is 25k ... ;)
And you said 10y ago your family income is 150k and now is 500-600k ... what sector is this hah? I want my son to be in leh :p
.... actually it is possible. 500k means 250k per annum each. It is quite high but not that high right.... you say until like mega rich kind.
The industry could have a lot of bonus, stock options, etc. With 4 months bonus + 13 months, that is 17 months. which is like 14.7k monthly....
your maths not too good lah.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 21:11
Haha it is possible if he's in the Admin Service, a partner in an audit or law firm, or working in the financial sector. But which means his savings rate is not high.
sis mondrian, you are very diplomatic :p .. your two questions also kind of drilling for more explanation why such high flyer family only has 1m saving after donkey years ... because they are so charitable or they suffer big loss in stock market?!
if i am a top banker ... do i really need to seek investment advice here?? if i am in admin service, isn't it easy for me to find out the upcoming TSL / ERL MRT exact location? if top lawyer or top auditor ... so free to TCSS here meh :p
... therefore isn't it more so that landed are more difficult to move in this market ? phantom may be a little exaggerating by using the word "stuck", but the fact is, large quantum sales are not moving.
"stuck" usually mean someone getting stuck with a property is is underwater and refuses to sell as it would mean losing money.
I am sure you can sell landed easily if you just price is slightly cheaper... which is still higher than what you paid for.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 21:17
.... actually it is possible. 500k means 250k per annum each. It is quite high but not that high right.... you say until like mega rich kind.
The industry could have a lot of bonus, stock options, etc. With 4 months bonus + 13 months, that is 17 months. which is like 14.7k monthly....
your maths not too good lah.
of course anything is possible, Jim Rogers comes to this forum also is possible :rolleyes: i am sure not only me is skeptical ... the whole story from a beginning 10y ago of 150k until now 500k just does not seem to hold ... a condo bought 10y ago for 550k and 10y later thinking of buying 4m landed as family income already X 3.5 :eating-burger: if you ask me, I think sis mondrian is much more believable :D
could be Yowetan's alter-ego...
of course anything is possible, Jim Rogers comes to this forum also is possible :rolleyes: i am sure not only me is skeptical ... the whole story from a beginning 10y ago of 150k until now 500k just does not seem to hold ... a condo bought 10y ago for 550k and 10y later thinking of buying 4m landed as family income already X 3.5 :eating-burger:
??? I am just saying 500k per annum household income is not really super rich.
You say until like surrounded by private bankers which is totally wrong. I think private bankers will look for bigger fish...
I think two normal people at the peak of their careers can easily earn 15k/month. These people are not top bankers, accountants, etc. They can be just a normal director in an engineering firm.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 21:22
could be Yowetan's alter-ego...
we need a language analysis on the posts ... if the way he write is like yowetan then :banghead:
we need a language analysis on the posts ... if the way he write is like yowetan then :banghead:
it is even more brilliant!!! .... Yowetan switching writing styles to suit his alter ego... on the internet, anything is possible.
phantom_opera
20-08-12, 21:30
??? I am just saying 500k per annum household income is not really super rich.
You say until like surrounded by private bankers which is totally wrong. I think private bankers will look for bigger fish...
I think two normal people at the peak of their careers can easily earn 15k/month. These people are not top bankers, accountants, etc. They can be just a normal director in an engineering firm.
sure ... I took back my words, not surrounded by private bankers ... and indeed you are right it is possible for both husband and wife to earn 30k per month
Such family is not super rich, but already in top 5%
Eh, dun be so serious, tcss is more fun :p
Actually, my only doubt is on the price of this semi-d.
$4m seems a bit on the low side for a semi-d in D15 if it is done up, but too high if not.
The last I checked, those in Siglap is already going for high $4m to low $5m. Don't need to even think about those further East towards Goodman Rd, Jln Seaview... etc
Even Jln Limau Nipis in D16 stood firm at $4.7m ...
Can you give more details of the semi-d you are eying? I am actually quite interested...
[quote=seeksadvice]
It will mean i have to scrimp & save for at least 25 years to fully pay off a house in D15 - going for a cool $4m.
[quote]
I suggest you should buy the $4m semi-d now and buy another property for rental collection when the opportunity comes up later.
Your mortgage payment for a $2m 25 year loan is probably around $7000 per month, pocket change for you in the scheme of things. There is more than enough buffer for you even if you factor in the possible increase in interest rates. Value of landed properties will probably hold or pegged to inflation in the next few years but it is unlikely to spike substantially after the recent run-up in price. I think price corrections for landed properties during future economic downturns will become increasing short termed and less severe as supply decreases in relation to condominiums. Maintenance is not very different from what you pay for a similarly sized condo. It will be a more stable asset to own compared to the more speculative condos.
Most Singaporeans will aspire to live in a landed property as it is a general confirmation of material success. Our government is unlikely to change the "locals only" policy as it is their interest that landed properties be owned by the most successful Singaporeans. Can you imagine the scenario of all the rich foreigners staying in landed houses while all the locals stay in condos and flats? It will lead to widespread unhappiness and the PAP will be voted out.
It is always better to buy another property for rental collection if you want to maximize wealth compared to simply staying in one for capital appreciation. But it is very difficult to find the right property now for investment as prices are way too high to justify the potential rental income. It only makes sense to buy a property for your own use rather than for investment in this current environment. I will definitely try to leverage up a little more for another rental property if I have an annual income of more than $500k when the yield spread improves.
You have been under living your life. It is time to enjoy life a little. You can afford it. Really.:)
Hi this is my first posting. Not quite sure if this question has been asked before?
I am currently living in a surburbia condo & hoping to sell it (fully paid) for a mil, top up with another hard-earned million, take a loan of $2m, to upgrade to a landed property.
It will mean i have to scrimp & save for at least 25 years to fully pay off a house in D15 - going for a cool $4m.
At the rate property prices are going, my palms get sweaty just thinking about it. Yet, a piece of advice that keeps reverberating in my head says to take the plunge, as landed supply can only decrease. And at these prices, some owners are prepared to let go & u can finally find something u really like, instead of settlng on smallish inter- terraces (looking at semi-d).
Is this sound advice? Someone else said i could buy a 2-3mil condo of 1,500-1,800sf in d10,11,15 for self stay while retaining my current condo. I get rental income & don't overstretch myself.
Who is right?
At this point, u might say "depends on your objective & holding power".
I think these are my objectives ( from most to least important):
1. Wealth maximisation....tend to believe in capital appreciation then rental. Hv heard plenty of horror stories from landlords. Also expat frens tell me they are spoilt for choices when they come to spore except agents always try to push D10
2. Maintenance costs & fuss...hv nvr lived in landed before but heard of roof leaks, pipes leaks, lack of carpark space, pests etc.
3. Space...living with parents, maid, wife & teen daughter....getting a bit crowded
4. Amenities & transport...D15 ...katong area seems quite promising even though mrt is a bit far to walk. In fact, quite the opposite, i hope eastern region line won't mean SERs for the house i am looking at.
If u are reading this, pl take a minute to respond:
1. Do u aspire towards landed ultimately?
2. Do u think landed over a 10 yr timeframe will yield better returns than the 2nd strategy above - buy bigger condo & rent out existing one?
3. Do u think spore govt will ever allow foreigners to buy landed, outside sentosa?
Thanks.
fears ....property correction, nightmare tenants, landed maintenance, etc.
I suggest you should buy the $4m semi-d now and buy another property for rental collection when the opportunity comes up later.
Is Now a good time to buy landed? Whilst everyone can agree that over the longer term there will be appreciation but the prices now are at the stratosphere levels.
IMHO,
if you are buying for investment, I think any property at current levels are hard pressed for decent returns in near future
Is Now a good time to buy landed? Whilst everyone can agree that over the longer term there will be appreciation but the prices now are at the stratosphere levels.
The current economic environment is a complex one. On one hand you have people arguing that property prices will fall because of Europe and US, on the other hand interest rates are so low and are likely to remain low for the next couple years. Singaporeans have also generally done quite well in the last few years and so many people have stashed away some money to buy another property in the event of a downturn. Recent published reports all show that we are one of the richest countries in the world. How much will prices fall when everybody is waiting to buy? On top of that, the government has so many measures that they have rolled out to prevent an asset bubble which they can easily roll back during a downturn. It is not in their interest to see a crash in the property market.
I think the market is just going to "muddle through" over the next few years. It is neither going to boom nor bust. It is probably a good time to buy something for own use since the loans are dirt cheap. The guy makes more than $500k annually and he is staying in fully paid up a suburban condo???
Seeksadvice aspires to stay in a landed property. Obviously $2m is not going to get him much in today's market, definitely not in the East. I think he can afford to enjoy himself.:)
Seekadvice,
On your poll "whether you aspire towards landed property", I really don't have a straightforward answer for you. I do not aspire to STAY in a landed property, though having said that, landed to me is just like any investment instrument. If it makes money, why not? So if one day, yields make sense vis a vis other classes of assets, I'd say why not. But at current levels of investment outlay versus yields (which is negative taking into account pest control charges for the tenant, exterior painting and replacement of roofing beams/tiles every 15 years or so), I'd say it does not make investment sense. So at the end of the day, the aspiration question only applies to the stayers, not the investors. :)
Two things which I am curious about, which I hope you don't mind me asking (though if you do mind, you can always choose not to answer)-
1) You mentioned you are a conservative couple and you have waited patiently on the sidelines for 3 years. So what is the trigger event for jumping into a $4m property now? The macroeconomic factors aren't particularly rosy, EU and US are mired in significant sovereign debt, demand drivers seem muted for the short to medium term. India is experiencing countless policy missteps. China is facing external headwinds. So why? Why now? Why $4m and not $2m?
2) For a household with income level of $500-600k, a total savings of $1.5m (since your present condo costs you $550k and you have an additional $1m in savings) after about 20 years of working is not particularly high. I am saying this cos your affordability assumptions for borrowing the next $2m seemed to be based on the number of years the current salary is required to repay, though you might also wish to consider your savings level, household expenditure levels and the sustainability of your current income for the next 20 years esp since you are buying a property for self stay.
Good luck on your bank valn! Do update us. :)
amk,
I am also keen to get a decent freehold in the ccr of at least 2000sqft of built in space. Actually prices have been softening in this segment, and people often overlook that a large contiguous land plot in the ccr (eg parvis at holland hill has land size of 244k sqft, with only 248 units) with much higher plot ratios and building height limits than landed could sometimes be more attractive.
Prices for landed properties are now at historical high. The question is what will trigger a fall in price? And if it does, by how much? Nobody knows what is going to happen in the short term but it is quite safe to assume that prices will only go up in the face of dwindling comparable supply in the long run. I definitely will not buy one to invest for rental income or capital appreciation now but I may buy one for own use given the cheap loans, depending on individual economic circumstances.
Is Now a good time to buy landed? Whilst everyone can agree that over the longer term there will be appreciation but the prices now are at the stratosphere levels.
I think it is onerous to shift to one place to "try try to see how" and then trade up later when able. Furthermore, an inter-terr is a totally different experience from a Semi-D.
If anything... it will be the frustration of not buying a semi-d in the first place.
TS and spouse are already in their 40s... one kid already in her high teens, if they can afford it, they should just do it... like Nike says (oops.. phantom doesn't like this slogan, I may incur his wrath).
Rental return rates at today's prices are abysmal and... price appreciation/depreciation works either ways whatever you buy anyway... might as well enjoy your life...
In this respect, why not get a smaller (and cheaper) landed at $2.2-2.5m first? Landed living is not everyone's cup of tea. If it is, he remains vested in the game to trade up; if it isn't, well it is always easier to dispose of a $2.5-2.7m property than a $4.5m one (assuming break even at 10% margin).
Has there been any experience of landed crashing due to high interest rates? i have not been in the market long enough to understand this.
But I would've thought that given the relatively illiquid nature of landed properties, the larger monthly commitment involved, landed owners will be one of the most prudent in doing their sums. For example, in my calculations, I've factored in scenarios where interest rates go up to 5%.....and hence, even considering 5-yr fixed rate packages....sadly these come with punitive prepayment fees.
Never say never.
Raine Wong(a seminar speaker cum lawyer) .. spoke of his 1997 experience with his multiple inte-terraces investments. I think he made quite a heavy loss on those.
You have been under living your life. It is time to enjoy life a little. You can afford it. Really.:)
How is it that living in a landed with a $2M loan considered enjoying life a little? I fail to understand.
Has there been any experience of landed crashing due to high interest rates? i have not been in the market long enough to understand this..
There has been no precedent because landed prices have generally been low, psf and quantum wise in the past. But not so, in the last 3 years or so. Landed has increased so much in the past 3 years not because of a real increase in the value of the land, but due to sentiments and beliefs like all properties now. In the worst of times, your $4M semi D will be competing with your neighbour who bought his semi D at $1.5M in the Eighties.
Part of enjoying life is about living in a home of that you aspire to own... and that could be a landed, PC or for that matter even HDB... in this case it just happens to be a landed...
and with a $500-600k per annum income, surely you can understand that a $2M loan is not really a stretch don't you think?
How is it that living in a landed with a $2M loan considered enjoying life a little? I fail to understand.
You czn also hve fuly paid off landed owning PCs.
you can start a poll asking how many landed property owners here own more than 1 property.
??? I am just saying 500k per annum household income is not really super rich.
You say until like surrounded by private bankers which is totally wrong. I think private bankers will look for bigger fish...
I think two normal people at the peak of their careers can easily earn 15k/month. These people are not top bankers, accountants, etc. They can be just a normal director in an engineering firm.
Then perhaps, most friends and your family members are abnormal people because they dont earn $25K per month.
You could be right too. People with high income or many properties do not need to tell everyone. Do you still remember this guy who said he has a household income of $800k a year. Came and gone quickly. .
bro. That newbie that starts with a Decksxxxxx is the real deal.
unless someone duplicate his nick:beats-me-man:
bro. That newbie that starts with a Decksxxxxx is the real deal.
unless someone duplicate his nick:beats-me-man:
I know that chap. super how lian guy. freeload at folks place, or course or money to how lian lah.
I know that chap. super how lian guy. freeload at folks place, or course or money to how lian lah.
his character was not brought up for review. But his financial well beng was been question.
500k pa... every year can buy one MM in full cash wowwwwww
phantom_opera
21-08-12, 08:45
I think it is onerous to shift to one place to "try try to see how" and then trade up later when able. Furthermore, an inter-terr is a totally different experience from a Semi-D.
If anything... it will be the frustration of not buying a semi-d in the first place.
TS and spouse are already in their 40s... one kid already in her high teens, if they can afford it, they should just do it... like Nike says (oops.. phantom doesn't like this slogan, I may incur his wrath).
Rental return rates at today's prices are abysmal and... price appreciation/depreciation works either ways whatever you buy anyway... might as well enjoy your life...
Nike quality sucks lol, sg landed needs not return best in 5 to 10y, sis Mondrian already highlights there is alternative like parvis.
Part of enjoying life is about living in a home of that you aspire to own... and that could be a landed, PC or for that matter even HDB... in this case it just happens to be a landed...
and with a $500-600k per annum income, surely you can understand that a $2M loan is not really a stretch don't you think?
Well, sure. But apparently, TS needs to cut back on his vacations and restaurant meals. He will also need to assume that this level of income can be sustained over a long period of time.
If I am not wrong, TS is looking at landed more for capital appreciation than the pros and cons of living in one. There should be better ways to grow your money than to be stuck with an illiquid asset.
Aiyoh, I dunno why I so kaypoh.. It's his money anyway. Maybe, we just TCSS to justify our own decisions..
Why not? Wonder what will be the response like?
you can start a poll asking how many landed property owners here own more than 1 property.
With an income of $500-600k, he will probably has a credit card for entertainment from the company (not public sector).
Well, sure. But apparently, TS needs to cut back on his vacations and restaurant meals. He will also need to assume that this level of income can be sustained over a long period of time.
If I am not wrong, TS is looking at landed more for capital appreciation than the pros and cons of living in one. There should be better ways to grow your money than to be stuck with an illiquid asset.
Aiyoh, I dunno why I so kaypoh.. It's his money anyway. Maybe, we just TCSS to justify our own decisions..
seeksadvice
21-08-12, 17:01
Seekadvice,
Two things which I am curious about, which I hope you don't mind me asking (though if you do mind, you can always choose not to answer)-
1) You mentioned you are a conservative couple and you have waited patiently on the sidelines for 3 years. So what is the trigger event for jumping into a $4m property now? The macroeconomic factors aren't particularly rosy, EU and US are mired in significant sovereign debt, demand drivers seem muted for the short to medium term. India is experiencing countless policy missteps. China is facing external headwinds. So why? Why now? Why $4m and not $2m?
2) For a household with income level of $500-600k, a total savings of $1.5m (since your present condo costs you $550k and you have an additional $1m in savings) after about 20 years of working is not particularly high. I am saying this cos your affordability assumptions for borrowing the next $2m seemed to be based on the number of years the current salary is required to repay, though you might also wish to consider your savings level, household expenditure levels and the sustainability of your current income for the next 20 years esp since you are buying a property for self stay.
Good luck on your bank valn! Do update us. :)
amk,
I am also keen to get a decent freehold in the ccr of at least 2000sqft of built in space. Actually prices have been softening in this segment, and people often overlook that a large contiguous land plot in the ccr (eg parvis at holland hill has land size of 244k sqft, with only 248 units) with much higher plot ratios and building height limits than landed could sometimes be more attractive.
Here're my responses to the questions posted by Mondrian:
1. What's trigger for going into a $4m ppty now?
Like i said in my original post, someone told me that it is not easy to get a landed ppty that one likes, so it's seizing an oppty. Ofcourse, there's always a question of w/r who is the bigger sucker? the buyer (me) or the seller?
2. Total savings of $1.5m not high?
I agree & I'm ashamed of my spendthrift ways in earlier years. Condo is fully paid up, so if counted, it's $2m savings. I already set aside some $ in the form of yield assets (not ppty) but not convenient to discuss them.
Valuation from bank came back today & val is looking v attractive (ie, asking price 10% below the val). So i think seller is probably holding out quite firmly for asking price....but he's definitely not stuck as he bought it in the 1990s.
I have also looked at Parvis. Somethign similar to that is Flamingo Valley in Siglap. Both has large contiguous land plots. Closer to town, I also like Yong An Park. But all v expensive & pay hefty maintenance fees.
To TS, why do you consider landed as an "upgrade" ?
Asking price "10% lower than valuation" is nothing new in today's market btw. Valuation can support whatever price ppl ask.
For me, I like staying in landed for the space. For facilities, I had bought a country club membership that has provided my family with better facilities than any condo in Singapore and the monthly fee is $150.
To TS, why do you consider landed as an "upgrade" ?
Asking price "10% lower than valuation" is nothing new in today's market btw. Valuation can support whatever price ppl ask.
A lot of people aspire to buy landed after condo lah.
That is why when the prices shot up in late 2009, I switched from condo to landed because I realise that landed will be the next one to increase in prices by a lot. When you can fetch a high price for your current condos, there will be people who will use that money to "upgrade" to landed.... and there are for more condo owners than landed sellers.
My bet was correct but pity I did not leverage and buy two landed properties instead of one...
The "space is very different. Just sleeping in a big bedroom is different to me. Having a large Home Theatre room is also something that was not possible before. Having a backyard to air dry your clothes is also good. My previous condo we had to hang our clothes in the living room to dry....
Having a day bed to relax in helps to make your bedroom more conducive to sleep as the bedroom is only for sleeping at night. not for playing, reading, etc. An extra tv room to watch TV allows you not to disturb others or fight over TVs.
Landed also has to depend on location. City fringe or city centre is better.
To use the facilities in the country club you need to drive there, and you also need to drive your wife & kids there? You need to own a car right? Also, Isn't the time spent is more precious than the money you save?
You pay $150 for something that is not yours to begin with? What about the club's membership fees which you get nothing back if the club folded? :p
For me, I like staying in landed for the space. For facilities, I had bought a country club membership that has provided my family with better facilities than any condo in Singapore and the monthly fee is $150.
new2mondrian
21-08-12, 22:41
Here're my responses to the questions posted by Mondrian:
1. What's trigger for going into a $4m ppty now?
Like i said in my original post, someone told me that it is not easy to get a landed ppty that one likes, so it's seizing an oppty. Ofcourse, there's always a question of w/r who is the bigger sucker? the buyer (me) or the seller?
2. Total savings of $1.5m not high?
I agree & I'm ashamed of my spendthrift ways in earlier years. Condo is fully paid up, so if counted, it's $2m savings. I already set aside some $ in the form of yield assets (not ppty) but not convenient to discuss them.
Valuation from bank came back today & val is looking v attractive (ie, asking price 10% below the val). So i think seller is probably holding out quite firmly for asking price....but he's definitely not stuck as he bought it in the 1990s.
I have also looked at Parvis. Somethign similar to that is Flamingo Valley in Siglap. Both has large contiguous land plots. Closer to town, I also like Yong An Park. But all v expensive & pay hefty maintenance fees.
Thanks for replying. Hey, you are not answerable to anyone on how you spent your money but maybe your dependents/family, so there's nothing to be ashamed of. Anyway, enjoy your purchase! :)
To wind30, apart from the backyard hanging cloth thing, all of the things u mentioned are not landed exclusive, are they ? Really you just need a bigger apartment , no ? But there are items condo exclusive, like u can walk down with slippers and jump into a proper sized pool straight ; visitor friendly basement car parks say when u throw a party; etc... Say 4mil today, a not here not there landed outskirts, or a large size condo near town, which one gives u better quality of life ? I know this is a personal thing, but honestly u can always get a big bungalow in woodlands, which is still far cheaper than a big 4bd in Parvis.
To wind30, apart from the backyard hanging cloth thing, all of the things u mentioned are not landed exclusive, are they ? Really you just need a bigger apartment , no ? But there are items condo exclusive, like u can walk down with slippers and jump into a proper sized pool straight ; visitor friendly basement car parks say when u throw a party; etc... Say 4mil today, a not here not there landed outskirts, or a large size condo near town, which one gives u better quality of life ? I know this is a personal thing, but honestly u can always get a big bungalow in woodlands, which is still far cheaper than a big 4bd in Parvis.
err....I know they are not exclusive. But I only have that amount of money....
The PSF for condo is much higher than landed in terms of living space. Like you said, Landed has no facilities. It is give and take. Given the fixed amount of money, do you want more space in landed housing or facilities/security in condo.
For me the adv of space far outweighs facilities as I almost never used any of the facilities in my previous condo.
err....I know they are not exclusive. But I only have that amount of money....
The PSF for condo is much higher than landed in terms of living space. Like you said, Landed has no facilities. It is give and take. Given the fixed amount of money, do you want more space in landed housing or facilities/security in condo.
For me the adv of space far outweighs facilities as I almost never used any of the facilities in my previous condo.
My family hates living in landed cos got those creepy crawly things running about the house. My friend's landed worse. Got to put sulphur powder to prevent snakes from coming in. Another friend got to chase monkeys out of the house everyday. And yes, lots of lizards, shit, gecko sounds and all. Oh well, maybe we are just unlucky and not nature friendly. Not all landed are like that, I suppose. But a good place for Science study on animal adaptations, prey and predators too.
I agree that landed property living is not for everyone but to answer seeksadvice's question of whether Singaporeans ultimately aspire to own a landed property over a condo, it's only meaningful if we are making an apple to apple comparison of the 2 types of properties in comparable areas. So do you prefer a smaller condo at holland hill/river valley or a larger house in D15 Katong? My gut feeling is that most Singaporeans will choose the house and it will be perceived as a step-up. As for wealth maximization, I think landed properties will win hands down in the long run. It will satisfy both your emotional and logical needs.:)
And there is absolutely nothing to be ashamed about being able to pay down 50% for a $4m property by a couple in their 40s with a household income of $500-$600k a year! I think you are definitely a lot less leveraged than the general population. More than half of the Singapore population will be wiped out before your banker will call on your loan if we are hit by a major downturn. And then the banks will go out of business.
You can afford it. Go for it! :)
My family hates living in landed cos got those creepy crawly things running about the house. My friend's landed worse. Got to put sulphur powder to prevent snakes from coming in. Another friend got to chase monkeys out of the house everyday. And yes, lots of lizards, shit, gecko sounds and all. Oh well, maybe we are just unlucky and not nature friendly. Not all landed are like that, I suppose. But a good place for Science study on animal adaptations, prey and predators too.
I agree that landed property living is not for everyone but to answer seeksadvice's question of whether Singaporeans ultimately aspire to own a landed property over a condo, it's only meaningful if we are making an apple to apple comparison of the 2 types of properties in comparable areas. So do you prefer a smaller condo at holland hill/river valley or a larger house in D15 Katong? My gut feeling is that most Singaporeans will choose the house and it will be perceived as a step-up. As for wealth maximization, I think landed properties will win hands down in the long run. It will satisfy both your emotional and logical needs.:)
how is comparing a SMALL condo to a LARGE house a apple to apple comparison? I think a better comparison will be a 3000sf penthouse vs a 3000sf landed property. Which one will you choose?
How is consuming what you invested as wealth maximization? wont someone who live in a $2m property, with $2m investment property be able to generate more wealth over time?
If you are using the last 3 to 4 years growth trend of landed property to extrapolate the future capital appreciation, then you are in for trouble because landed property has already reaches its peak, and thats the reason why detached houses prices are coming down despite the rich are still getting richer. Due to its lousy rental yield, if your landed property prices doesnt appreciate 2 to 3% every year, then what is the point?
new2mondrian
22-08-12, 08:26
My family hates living in landed cos got those creepy crawly things running about the house. My friend's landed worse. Got to put sulphur powder to prevent snakes from coming in. Another friend got to chase monkeys out of the house everyday. And yes, lots of lizards, shit, gecko sounds and all. Oh well, maybe we are just unlucky and not nature friendly. Not all landed are like that, I suppose. But a good place for Science study on animal adaptations, prey and predators too.
My friend's place in Katong has the same snake problem. There was a snake under the house which they could never catch. One rainy day it flooded, and snake got out. Police was roped in the catch snake, but snake escaped through the drains.
After the snake left, the rats came. Or rather the rats were there all along, but the snake controlled their population. Faint.
phantom_opera
22-08-12, 08:32
Very good analysis 789
Might as well buy 15y ntuc bond yielding pathetic 3.65pc
If u ask spice grp CEO to buy he will still stick to bay view, part of biz expenses
To use the facilities in the country club you need to drive there, and you also need to drive your wife & kids there? You need to own a car right? Also, Isn't the time spent is more precious than the money you save?
You pay $150 for something that is not yours to begin with? What about the club's membership fees which you get nothing back if the club folded? :p
landed attract different set of people. Paying 350 or so for condo facilities vs 150 is about the same as some have membership fees paid by the company. Its not just the pool n gym but the club faciliities that is lacking in the condo.
My friend's place in Katong has the same snake problem. There was a snake under the house which they could never catch. One rainy day it flooded, and snake got out. Police was roped in the catch snake, but snake escaped through the drains.
After the snake left, the rats came. Or rather the rats were there all along, but the snake controlled their population. Faint.
That's the part I dislike about landed. Roaches, rats and mosquitoes.
It is a really interesting discussion so far. IMO, Landed has more privacy than Penthouse. Car can drive right into the house for landed and does not share carpark lots with the rest of the residents as in the case of condo. This is extremely useful when you have loads of stuff to unload from the car after marketing.
I was under the impression most landed owners will have full time maid(s) and the maid(s) will take care of the groceries shopping etc...
phantom_opera
22-08-12, 10:06
I was under the impression most landed owners will have full time maid(s) and the maid(s) will take care of the groceries shopping etc...
There are 2 types: one is so rich that landed is peanut to them, hire 4 maids and just enjoy life, another type is STUCK type, after paying for landed cannot enjoy life
My family hates living in landed cos got those creepy crawly things running about the house. My friend's landed worse. Got to put sulphur powder to prevent snakes from coming in. Another friend got to chase monkeys out of the house everyday. And yes, lots of lizards, shit, gecko sounds and all. Oh well, maybe we are just unlucky and not nature friendly. Not all landed are like that, I suppose. But a good place for Science study on animal adaptations, prey and predators too.
I stayed in Condos before and have faced the same problems with lizards and not to mention cockroaches from the rubbish chute. As for landed, the lizards exist, no denying it. So does the butterflies and occassional birds that decides to pay a visit. As for monkeys, I don't recall seeing one where I am living.
I don't oppose condo living and I find it comical everytime someone brings up the 'animal' issue in landed properties. If you keep the properties clean, it will be clean. Vice versa.
In my younger days, I aspire to leave in a full facilities condo, I imagine myself taking a dip in the pool, playing tennis, having weekend bbq with friends and families. To be honest, I never like landed and had the same conceptions as most - parking issue, security, facilities, animals, etc. Truth be told, after 3 years living in the condo, I only use the facilities once, maybe twice. Have friends and families over only during the housewarming as the space was small.
Nowadays, having families over is a pleasure with the amount of space. Parking could be an issue, but non so far after probably the 50th time they were over here. Compared to condo, entertaining it much more pleasurable due to space. I park in my own garage, taking out grocery is so much easier compared to before where I had to make 3 trips up and down the lift in a condo (not to mention the extra steps I had to take to walk to the car parked far away from the lift due to lack of space) I walk out in my boxers and tatter shirt to my backyard to sit and enjoy the evening breeze ( something I could not do freely in the condo). I don't pay the $500 maintence fee and sinking funds every month and with the money I 'save', I give the house a facelift every 5 years with a fresh coat of paint and minor repairs.
I understand where the threadshetter is going. As some has mention, one is free to spend as he/she wishes. Afterall you have only 1 life. No point hoarding millions of dollars when you are not around. Some say what about the next generation? I am happy to say I had got what I had through sheer hard work and perhaps a little luck. My parents provided me with an education in a local U which I thank them for. They provided shelter, clothes and food through my younger days which I am grateful for. As for my legacy to my kids? It is the land we have now. For better or for worse, this will be what they will have when I am not around. As a headstart, they would have far more than what I have and that should suffice.
As for the lizards, snakes and monkeys, I would consider them as friends instead of pests now...
I stayed in Condos before and have faced the same problems with lizards and not to mention cockroaches from the rubbish chute. As for landed, the lizards exist, no denying it. So does the butterflies and occassional birds that decides to pay a visit. As for monkeys, I don't recall seeing one where I am living.
I don't oppose condo living and I find it comical everytime someone brings up the 'animal' issue in landed properties. If you keep the properties clean, it will be clean. Vice versa.
...I park in my own garage, taking out grocery is so much easier compared to before where I had to make 3 trips up and down the lift in a condo (not to mention the extra steps I had to take to walk to the car parked far away from the lift due to lack of space) I walk out in my boxers and tatter shirt to my backyard to sit and enjoy the evening breeze ( something I could not do freely in the condo). I don't pay the $500 maintence fee and sinking funds every month and with the money I 'save', I give the house a facelift every 5 years with a fresh coat of paint and minor repairs.
As for the lizards, snakes and monkeys, I would consider them as friends instead of pests now...
Sure, landed got good points as well. Birds..ah... My garden used to be carpet grass. Very nice... Then birds came and shit in it. Cow grass and all kinds of weeds started to grow. Every day got to clear the weeds. After a while, gave up. Then after two years, nice carpet grass became cow grass all over.
Groceries... yes. Landed very convenient. But got maids to help carry in condo. However, I make my kids carry the groceries instead. You want to eat, you do the work.
My monthly utility bill is quite huge. Got front and back yards to wash. Mop the floor a few times a day etc...very clean, but still got "friends" leh.
Lastly, the following is a true story.
http://www.ttsh.com.sg/about-us/newsroom/news/article.aspx?id=3228
As with everything else, there are pros and cons.
As with everything else, there are pros and cons.
That is excatly what I am trying to say. You got the words right off my mouth... Just had to say my :2cents: as there are more 1 sided view than a balance view around.
as a mitigating factor, i think not many folks can offer a truly balanced view cos there's just not that many (as % of home owners) who actually had the experience of owning (not renting) both landed and condo at roughly the same time (to avoid the disparate comparisons over the living experience over different periods of time). :cheers1:
My friend's place in Katong has the same snake problem. There was a snake under the house which they could never catch. One rainy day it flooded, and snake got out. Police was roped in the catch snake, but snake escaped through the drains.
After the snake left, the rats came. Or rather the rats were there all along, but the snake controlled their population. Faint.
hahhaa... my wife/kids would faint...luckily we have not experience this... one tip is make sure all the rubbish are cleared every night and no food (including potatoes, rice or whatever) is left exposed in the backyard.
we left the rubbish overnite the last time and the rats came and mess it out. so i ask my maid to clear it before they go to sleep. it really works.
as for mosquitoes, make sure all the public drains are of debris as sometimes when dry leaves dropped into the drain it may choked the water.
landed is not for everyone. as we have a big family, it makes more sense for us + I like koi pond..
It is a really interesting discussion so far. IMO, Landed has more privacy than Penthouse. Car can drive right into the house for landed and does not share carpark lots with the rest of the residents as in the case of condo. This is extremely useful when you have loads of stuff to unload from the car after marketing.
also useful when little children falls asleep in the car.. easier to carry them... used to have strong muscle when I have to carry them from the car park to the house last time when I was staying in a condo... now so flabby.. :D
Hi guys,
I use those commercial electric products that help to ward off all types of creepy crawlies and they work like a charm. You just need to install one piece per level for the desired effect. Hope that it helps for those of you with many "friends" at your landed home.
Sure, landed got good points as well. Birds..ah... My garden used to be carpet grass. Very nice... Then birds came and shit in it. Cow grass and all kinds of weeds started to grow. Every day got to clear the weeds. After a while, gave up. Then after two years, nice carpet grass became cow grass all over.
Groceries... yes. Landed very convenient. But got maids to help carry in condo. However, I make my kids carry the groceries instead. You want to eat, you do the work.
My monthly utility bill is quite huge. Got front and back yards to wash. Mop the floor a few times a day etc...very clean, but still got "friends" leh.
Lastly, the following is a true story.
http://www.ttsh.com.sg/about-us/newsroom/news/article.aspx?id=3228
As with everything else, there are pros and cons.
If no gardener, then best is tile up the grass. Not as nice but no choice if want to save the effort.
I was referring to Seeksadvice's post about looking at Parvis and Yong An Park. His option is between a slightly more than 2000sf condo and a semi-d he is eyeing in D15 Katong given his $4m budget. Minimum land size for semi d is 200sm and semi ds of that size will commonly have a larger built-up area. Thus I assumed that it would be a larger house. The point is we should not take a house in Yio Chu Kang, for example, and compare it with the lifestyle of staying at Ardmore Park in Orchard, when we are discussing the attractiveness of staying in condo or landed to most singaporeans.
Of course a person staying in a $2m property and renting out another $2m property will generate more wealth over time. I have already mentioned that and agreed with you in an earlier post. I have also agreed that prices for landed would not likely to spike so much in the future due to the recent run up in price. You are absolutely right. The "wealth maximization" I refered to was Seeksadvice's option of owning either condo or landed property for the long term.
Will you attain more wealth living in a smaller D9/10 condo or a larger semi d in D15 if you want to hold it for 25 years?
how is comparing a SMALL condo to a LARGE house a apple to apple comparison? I think a better comparison will be a 3000sf penthouse vs a 3000sf landed property. Which one will you choose?
How is consuming what you invested as wealth maximization? wont someone who live in a $2m property, with $2m investment property be able to generate more wealth over time?
If you are using the last 3 to 4 years growth trend of landed property to extrapolate the future capital appreciation, then you are in for trouble because landed property has already reaches its peak, and thats the reason why detached houses prices are coming down despite the rich are still getting richer. Due to its lousy rental yield, if your landed property prices doesnt appreciate 2 to 3% every year, then what is the point?
To use the facilities in the country club you need to drive there, and you also need to drive your wife & kids there? You need to own a car right? Also, Isn't the time spent is more precious than the money you save?
You pay $150 for something that is not yours to begin with? What about the club's membership fees which you get nothing back if the club folded? :p
Unfortunately no condo in Singapore has a golf course for me to play, I know of condo owners that are members of the country club for the golf course and driving range facilities.
It's a 10min drive to the country club from home and my family usually spend our Sundays there. I find that the country club is a great way to spend quality time with the family. Besides swimming, my kids also like to bowl and there's a nice bowling alley in the country club. Sometimes we would play tennis or pool billards or ping pong or arcade games, all these facilities are in the country club. In the past when I was still serving reservist, I had to workout at the gym there to prepare for IPPT.
I guess it's worth the money for me as a lifestyle choice. :)
Animals issue in landed not an issue lah.
Last time people live in kampung got more animals issues. I've seen tree snakes, cobras, squirrels, rodents, chickens, ducks, pigs, spiders, red and black ants, centipede, mosquito, etc.
It's really an enjoyable learning experience during those days. Nowadays young children don't get expose to animals as easily & often so getting them to see & experience them is good for their learning.
Just need to keep these animals & insects under control and it's still worth to live in landed.
Just my opinions.
phantom_opera
22-08-12, 12:59
Will you attain more wealth living in a smaller D9/10 condo or a larger semi d in D15 if you want to hold it for 25 years?
If a person has net worth of 40m, he will spread it across all countries. If a person has 4m, he throws it at a D15 landed, then his fate will depend on PAP or Singapore. :banghead: This is called put all eggs in one basket
cons for landed property are security, neighbors relationship, limited parking space, stuffy (especially for terrace houses), mosquito and occasional dengue fever and cost of maintenance once it age.
I think the pests issue is heavily dependent on where your place is. For mine, other than lizards and snails I have never seen anything else.
cons for landed property are security, neighbors relationship, limited parking space, stuffy (especially for terrace houses), mosquito and occasional dengue fever and cost of maintenance once it age.
Plus arguments over parking space outside their houses, less wind, potential flooding concerns, amplification of dog barking (if you walk past a landed house with a noisy dog and it barks, the whole street can hear it and it will trigger off another series of happy barking from the other dogs), not close to amentities (for most), putting up with everlasting noise if you strike neighbour-decides-to-rebuild lottery, etc etc
hence the reason i moved to a condo.
:2cents:
But have to carry them to up the stairs to their bedroom unless staying in one with internal lift.
also useful when little children falls asleep in the car.. easier to carry them... used to have strong muscle when I have to carry them from the car park to the house last time when I was staying in a condo... now so flabby.. :D
Domestic helper is necessary for landed. Otherwise, who is going to clean the house, wash the clothes and car, buy grocery, etc.
I was under the impression most landed owners will have full time maid(s) and the maid(s) will take care of the groceries shopping etc...
Domestic helper is necessary for landed. Otherwise, who is going to clean the house, wash the clothes and car, buy grocery, etc.
DIY, save money and save life! :D for those who depend too much on domestic helper, consider doing house chores if you do not have time for regular exercise...good for you. :p
cons for landed property are security, neighbors relationship, limited parking space, stuffy (especially for terrace houses), mosquito and occasional dengue fever and cost of maintenance once it age.
i guess be it staying in hdb, PC or landed, most importantly we are talking not just the shelter over our heads but also the environment. some prefer security over anything else and some prefer to have facilities and so on. so there is no such fix for all. :D
cluster housing is a hybrid of landed & condo and i foresee in future more and more will be into this type of housing. But too bad, it will be very limited. out of the 73000 units landed, how many % is cluster? Anyway, i would choose cluster as it solved some of those landed concerns...:o
But have to carry them to up the stairs to their bedroom unless staying in one with internal lift.
There is usually a day bed downstairs.
last time kampung cheap cheap no choice mah... :p
Don't need money got water (from well), no electricity got light (use kerosene lamp), can grow fruits and rear chickens etc :o
Nowsadays pay landed properties so much to experience kampung life? :banghead:
Animals issue in landed not an issue lah.
Last time people live in kampung got more animals issues. I've seen tree snakes, cobras, squirrels, rodents, chickens, ducks, pigs, spiders, red and black ants, centipede, mosquito, etc.
It's really an enjoyable learning experience during those days. Nowadays young children don't get expose to animals as easily & often so getting them to see & experience them is good for their learning.
Just need to keep these animals & insects under control and it's still worth to live in landed.
Just my opinions.
Different people different preference... I have no use for country club because I don't play the "small ball", I don't play the "big ball" :p
Why need to play arcade games at country club when I can play so many games at the comfort of my home? :D
Unfortunately no condo in Singapore has a golf course for me to play, I know of condo owners that are members of the country club for the golf course and driving range facilities.
It's a 10min drive to the country club from home and my family usually spend our Sundays there. I find that the country club is a great way to spend quality time with the family. Besides swimming, my kids also like to bowl and there's a nice bowling alley in the country club. Sometimes we would play tennis or pool billards or ping pong or arcade games, all these facilities are in the country club. In the past when I was still serving reservist, I had to workout at the gym there to prepare for IPPT.
I guess it's worth the money for me as a lifestyle choice. :)
I meant coming back at night. In fact, my maid sleeps at the attic. We stay at the lower floors.
There is usually a day bed downstairs.
Trapping-bird
22-08-12, 22:04
Don't know why got a strongly feeling the TS is Yowetan .. Who has same feeling as me??
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/man-hurt-as-neighbours-fight-over-parking/a/74685
Something to bear in mind when buying landed.
Some landed have cars parked on both sides of the street and often some car will have to reverse to give way to the on coming traffic.
Dec 2010
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Mar 2011
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https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/183127_1677855979173_2340309_n.jpg
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Aug 2011
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May 2012
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Jul 2012
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http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/man-hurt-as-neighbours-fight-over-parking/a/74685
Something to bear in mind when buying landed.
Some landed have cars parked on both sides of the street and often some car will have to reverse to give way to the on coming traffic.
U can't buy class.
most that comes to visit sometimes push thier rights. And some who stays there choose to be ungracious.
I have seen landed that owners do not park their cars in there for fear of oil leak from the cars.
U can't buy class.
most that comes to visit sometimes push thier rights. And some who stays there choose to be ungracious.
I have seen landed that owners do not park their cars in there for fear of oil leak from the cars.
If they park their second car outside because the first one has already taken up the space inside that i can understand. Some park all their cars by the road side and leave their driveway empty to give themselves more space. That is plain selfish.
http://www.stproperty.sg/articles-property/singapore-property-news/man-hurt-as-neighbours-fight-over-parking/a/74685
Something to bear in mind when buying landed.
Some landed have cars parked on both sides of the street and often some car will have to reverse to give way to the on coming traffic.
That is why your choice of landed is impt. This one can choose one.
If you worried about parking spaces, choose an estate with wider or empty roads lah.
If you don't like to reverse to give way, don't buy at places with high pop density with a lot of rebuilt like Telok Kurau areas.
My place has like PLENTY of parking space. Can still find park during chinese new year.
If they park their second car outside because the first one has already taken up the space inside that i can understand. Some park all their cars by the road side and leave their driveway empty to give themselves more space. That is plain selfish.
Agreed. I park inside my house so I use a rubbish bin to "chop" the space outside my house to prevent my neighbour (rental) from parking there.
That tenant does not park inside his house and likes to park along the road. I don't really mind if someone parks ocassionally outside my house. However, it irritates me a lot when someone refuses to park inside his house and parks outside my house 365 days a year.
Although it does not block my driveway, it makes entering and getting out of my driveway more inconvenient.
Anyway, there are plenty of parks around my place so once I chop the place, the neighbour just shift to a further location (which is outside a powerstation so nobody cares)
You all sounds very chum like that, everyday come back from work got to think whether later got place to park your car if you have more than 1...
You can chop your space but others can also take away the bin as it is public place. Think recently there is an article about this. Sorry but the space outside your landed belongs to the public, no choice but have to face it :o
Agreed. I park inside my house so I use a rubbish bin to "chop" the space outside my house to prevent my neighbour (rental) from parking there.
That tenant does not park inside his house and likes to park along the road. I don't really mind if someone parks ocassionally outside my house. However, it irritates me a lot when someone refuses to park inside his house and parks outside my house 365 days a year.
Although it does not block my driveway, it makes entering and getting out of my driveway more inconvenient.
Anyway, there are plenty of parks around my place so once I chop the place, the neighbour just shift to a further location (which is outside a powerstation so nobody cares)
Arcachon, nice & delicious vege & fruits.
It's the most enjoyable moment when you eat the fruits from your own garden. :cheers4:
Then when thw neighbours go into tit for tat. They park on both sides of the road, only one car can pass through. Sometimes it causes a small jam as there's hardly any space to give way. Those are undesirable streets to live on.
You all sounds very chum like that, everyday come back from work got to think whether later got place to park your car if you have more than 1...
You can chop your space but others can also take away the bin as it is public place. Think recently there is an article about this. Sorry but the space outside your landed belongs to the public, no choice but have to face it :o
the more expensive neighbourhood dun have lorries or vans from the neghbourhood as well . Check out the place before you buy. Compare luxus hill vs some of those near hdb area n you get a idea what you are getting into.
the more expensive neighbourhood dun have lorries or vans from the neghbourhood as well . Check out the place before you buy. Compare luxus hill vs some of those near hdb area n you get a idea what you are getting into.
Luxus hills have some hdb across the road.
But yes i know what you're referring to. It becomes a lorry parking bay.
As anticipated, this has turned into a landed vs condo/apt argument which will go on and on ad infinitum.
There are pros and cons for both which has been well laid out by many of the bros here so I will not elaborate.From what I read from TS first statemnt, I think he/she has more or less decided on a landed, its just whether it makes economic sense.
If you are buying for own stay, then by all means go for it. the inherent joy and pride of owning a piece of land that you can call your own is unparallelled. I, myself , own both and if it comes to a crunch where I have to release one or the other, I am definitely more reluctant to let go of the landed than the condo.
Since you are buying for own stay, then rental yield will not be a concern for you but more so on capital protection/appreciation. Yes, both landed and condos/apt have run up a fair bit but which will give you better capital protection or to be more optimistic, appreciation in the long run? Perhaps the chartbelow will help shed some light.
http://business.asiaone.com/A1MEDIA/business/02Feb12/images/20120224.122230_landed.jpg
People who say that landed prices are strastospheric are of that mind because of the way that landed is priced vs condos. Most landed (with the exception of cluster) are priced psf on land area rather than the built-up for condos /apt. With the exception of detached or GCB, most landed have greater built up area than the land based on the propensity to build up or dwon (basements). If you compare like for like i.e. pure living area, then it may not seem so high after all. In fact, in my ivew, that is probably one of the factors for the run-up in landed as more people come to this realization.
As for all the horror stories about parking, creepy crawlies, noise pollution, bad negihbours etc, I think it all boils down to your selection of the property itself. Having stayed in both condo and landed, I can tell you that the problems exists for BOTH landed and condos as well.
I have stayed in condos and landed which exhibit one or all of the problems above so to me its not mutally exclusive when you choose one property type over another. Do your research on the surroundings before you buy. This applies for BOTH condos as well as landed.
With that in mind, just do what you think will bring greatest happiness to you and your family and buy withn your means. Property moves in cycles. so what if it goes down? As long as you have holding power, the cycle will go up again. As long as you are sitting on a capital gain, are you going to hit yourself over the head because another property type could have garnered you a little more paper gain. Life is too short to worry about such stuff.
Good post bro ..with awesome supporting graphics...like National Day Rally ...
Different people different preference... I have no use for country club because I don't play the "small ball", I don't play the "big ball" :p
Why need to play arcade games at country club when I can play so many games at the comfort of my home? :D
My wife doesn't allow the kids to have x-box or other gaming consoles at home, she is strict. :)
You are right, this country club thing is based on personal preference. It's a waste of money for those that rarely go to use the facilities. :)
This reminds me of the place I stayed for 7 years in the UK.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/319939_2090637898463_4820872_n.jpg
May 2012
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Jul 2012
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My wife doesn't allow the kids to have x-box or other gaming consoles at home, she is strict. :)
Your wife might like to read this research done by U. of Rochester. Like everything else, it is important not to let it become an addiction though.
Video Games Lead to Faster Decisions that are No Less Accurate
September 13, 2010
http://www.rochester.edu/news/photos/lo651.jpg
A test subject attempts to determine whether the erratically moving dots on a computer screen are moving left or right on average during a study at the University of Rochester August 24, 2010. This was one task used by UR professor of brain and cognitive science Daphne Bavelier and colleagues in their study, "Improved probabilistic inference as a general learning mechanism with action video games", to determine whether playing video games makes people faster decision makers while having no detrimental effect on accuracy.
http://www.rochester.edu/news/photos/lo652.jpg
Participants in a University of Rochester study, "Improved probabilistic inference as a general learning mechanism with action video games", by UR professor of brain and cognitive science Daphne Bavelier played 50 hours of video games over multiple weeks. Players who played action games like Call of Duty 2 (pictured here) made quicker decisions than those who played slow-paced strategy games like The Sims without sacrificing accuracy.
Study Suggests That Video Games Could be Training Tool for Quicker Reactions
Cognitive scientists from the University of Rochester have discovered that playing action video games trains people to make the right decisions faster. The researchers found that video game players develop a heightened sensitivity to what is going on around them, and this benefit doesn't just make them better at playing video games, but improves a wide variety of general skills that can help with everyday activities like multitasking, driving, reading small print, keeping track of friends in a crowd, and navigating around town.
Action Video Games Found to Sharpen Decision-Making
In an upcoming study in the journal Current Biology, authors Daphne Bavelier, Alexandre Pouget, and C. Shawn Green report that video games could provide a potent training regimen for speeding up reactions in many types of real-life situations.
Video games have grown in popularity to the point where 68 percent of American households have members that play them, according to a 2009 report by the Entertainment Software Association.
The researchers tested dozens of 18- to 25-year-olds who were not ordinarily video game players. They split the subjects into two groups. One group played 50 hours of the fast-paced action video games "Call of Duty 2" and "Unreal Tournament," and the other group played 50 hours of the slow-moving strategy game "The Sims 2."
After this training period, all of the subjects were asked to make quick decisions in several tasks designed by the researchers. In the tasks, the participants had to look at a screen, analyze what was going on, and answer a simple question about the action in as little time as possible (i.e. whether a clump of erratically moving dots was migrating right or left across the screen on average). In order to make sure the effect wasn't limited to just visual perception, the participants were also asked to complete an analogous task that was purely auditory.
The action game players were up to 25 percent faster at coming to a conclusion and answered just as many questions correctly as their strategy game playing peers.
"It's not the case that the action game players are trigger-happy and less accurate: They are just as accurate and also faster," Bavelier said. "Action game players make more correct decisions per unit time. If you are a surgeon or you are in the middle of a battlefield, that can make all the difference."
The authors' neural simulations shed light on why action gamers have augmented decision making capabilities. People make decisions based on probabilities that they are constantly calculating and refining in their heads, Bavelier explains. The process is called probabilistic inference. The brain continuously accumulates small pieces of visual or auditory information as a person surveys a scene, eventually gathering enough for the person to make what they perceive to be an accurate decision.
"Decisions are never black and white," she said. "The brain is always computing probabilities. As you drive, for instance, you may see a movement on your right, estimate whether you are on a collision course, and based on that probability make a binary decision: brake or don't brake."
Action video game players' brains are more efficient collectors of visual and auditory information, and therefore arrive at the necessary threshold of information they need to make a decision much faster than non gamers, the researchers found.
The new study builds on previous work by Bavelier and colleagues that showed that video games improve vision by making players more sensitive to slightly different shades of color.
Great post!:)
As anticipated, this has turned into a landed vs condo/apt argument which will go on and on ad infinitum.
There are pros and cons for both which has been well laid out by many of the bros here so I will not elaborate.From what I read from TS first statemnt, I think he/she has more or less decided on a landed, its just whether it makes economic sense.
If you are buying for own stay, then by all means go for it. the inherent joy and pride of owning a piece of land that you can call your own is unparallelled. I, myself , own both and if it comes to a crunch where I have to release one or the other, I am definitely more reluctant to let go of the landed than the condo.
Since you are buying for own stay, then rental yield will not be a concern for you but more so on capital protection/appreciation. Yes, both landed and condos/apt have run up a fair bit but which will give you better capital protection or to be more optimistic, appreciation in the long run? Perhaps the chartbelow will help shed some light.
http://business.asiaone.com/A1MEDIA/business/02Feb12/images/20120224.122230_landed.jpg
People who say that landed prices are strastospheric are of that mind because of the way that landed is priced vs condos. Most landed (with the exception of cluster) are priced psf on land area rather than the built-up for condos /apt. With the exception of detached or GCB, most landed have greater built up area than the land based on the propensity to build up or dwon (basements). If you compare like for like i.e. pure living area, then it may not seem so high after all. In fact, in my ivew, that is probably one of the factors for the run-up in landed as more people come to this realization.
As for all the horror stories about parking, creepy crawlies, noise pollution, bad negihbours etc, I think it all boils down to your selection of the property itself. Having stayed in both condo and landed, I can tell you that the problems exists for BOTH landed and condos as well.
I have stayed in condos and landed which exhibit one or all of the problems above so to me its not mutally exclusive when you choose one property type over another. Do your research on the surroundings before you buy. This applies for BOTH condos as well as landed.
With that in mind, just do what you think will bring greatest happiness to you and your family and buy withn your means. Property moves in cycles. so what if it goes down? As long as you have holding power, the cycle will go up again. As long as you are sitting on a capital gain, are you going to hit yourself over the head because another property type could have garnered you a little more paper gain. Life is too short to worry about such stuff.
Great post!:)
interestingly, there is no 30% nor 50% drop as one would really worry :ashamed1:
You all sounds very chum like that, everyday come back from work got to think whether later got place to park your car if you have more than 1...
You can chop your space but others can also take away the bin as it is public place. Think recently there is an article about this. Sorry but the space outside your landed belongs to the public, no choice but have to face it :o
I only have one car now but I had two cars when I first moved in for 1 year.
I don't think u understand landed living. When I had two cars neighbours will not park outside my house because they know my second car need the space. It is like an unwritten rule and everyone knows their neighbours parking habits.
The issue comes when you leave a spot empty. With time if you don't put a rubbish bin there, some neighbour will probably decide to park there permanently. If you put your bin there, most people are nice enough that they will park elsewhere. In my two years, I only had one case whereby the bin was moved by someone. This is probably because there is plenty of parking like 2 houses down the road from my place as there is an "empty" road with no houses on both sides. Nobody will want to disturb others when there is parking available like 5m away...
Of course if your place is beside an eating place with no parking nearby, I don't think the "bin" technique will work.
I only have one car now but I had two cars when I first moved in for 1 year.
I don't think u understand landed living. When I had two cars neighbours will not park outside my house because they know my second car need the space. It is like an unwritten rule and everyone knows their neighbours parking habits.
The issue comes when you leave a spot empty. With time if you don't put a rubbish bin there, some neighbour will probably decide to park there permanently. If you put your bin there, most people are nice enough that they will park elsewhere. In my two years, I only had one case whereby the bin was moved by someone. This is probably because there is plenty of parking like 2 houses down the road from my place as there is an "empty" road with no houses on both sides. Nobody will want to disturb others when there is parking available like 5m away...
Of course if your place is beside an eating place with no parking nearby, I don't think the "bin" technique will work.
I am sorry, but it is utterly selfish of you. You have no use for the spot and yet you deny others the chance to use it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I am sorry, but it is utterly selfish of you. You have no use for the spot and yet you deny others the chance to use it. You should be ashamed of yourself.
the situation for each case is not so black and white.
You must live in the estate to know the details.
Example, if I don't put a bin there, my neighbour who DOES NOT park inside his house will park outside my house. Is that not selfish? Why should I park inside my house and leave the road empty and easy to drive for all, only to benefit inconsiderate people who don't want to park inside their house?
By blocking that space I think I am helping everyone (by keeping the road clear) because I "encourage" people to park inside their house. :)
I am thinking about everyone who uses the road. Ultimately the most selfish people are those who don't park on their car porch.
I wish govt step in and paint all the lanes double yellow lines :)
Previously, all these lanes with dual traffic lanes, then became One way traffic lanes. Later added single Yellow lines.
Double Yellow next and then will be Jagged Double Yellow...
Just too many people with too little road infrastucture...or in another way, too many cars - which means COE is too low!! :scared-4:
I wish govt step in and paint all the lanes double yellow lines :)
I actually think that the price appreciation of landed property is a little misleading because most of the time such statistic doesnt take into account the amount of money that is being pump into A&A or rebuilding.
Take for example, I bought a landed at $2m, I spend $600K in A&A and then sell it for $2.9m. Under such transaction, I am sure URA will capture the value as appreciate by $900k instead of $300k "profit"
I actually think that the price appreciation of landed property is a little misleading because most of the time such statistic doesnt take into account the amount of money that is being pump into A&A or rebuilding.
Take for example, I bought a landed at $2m, I spend $600K in A&A and then sell it for $2.9m. Under such transaction, I am sure URA will capture the value as appreciate by $900k instead of $300k "profit"
u make a valid point, this is so much diff from condo whereby u need not spend so much on reno and so on. This also explain why the price is going up more as ppl spend more on reno and obviously when they sell, they will take into consideration those that they have already pump in.
u make a valid point, this is so much diff from condo whereby u need not spend so much on reno and so on. This also explain why the price is going up more as ppl spend more on reno and obviously when they sell, they will take into consideration those that they have already pump in.
I always think that doing an A&A or rebuild it is as good as an enbloc, so it is not surprise that value of these property will appreciation according to the valued added.
Good perspective bro...
I always think that doing an A&A or rebuild it is as good as an enbloc, so it is not surprise that value of these property will appreciation according to the valued added.
new2mondrian
25-08-12, 11:31
I actually think that the price appreciation of landed property is a little misleading because most of the time such statistic doesnt take into account the amount of money that is being pump into A&A or rebuilding.
Take for example, I bought a landed at $2m, I spend $600K in A&A and then sell it for $2.9m. Under such transaction, I am sure URA will capture the value as appreciate by $900k instead of $300k "profit"
Agree. A&A is no longer cheap these days, taking into account the architect fees, structural engineer fees etc, and more often than not there is also development charge involved. That's why landed is always for self stay. The effort involved in doing a A&A or a rebuild is not small.
My properties earn me gross rental income of ard $10k per month, on top of that I have two for self stay, and all of which cost me $3M plus. If market corrects, my downside is limited whereas I collect ard $120k of rental per annum. Plonking everything into a landed plus put in an additional $400-500k to bring it to a desirable condition is something which I simply cannot square off in terms of the opportunity costs of funds involved.
Haha that's me lah. But then again, it goes down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, as to what constitutes self-actualisation! Lol... :)
Unless you have a totally reliable contractor/architect, doing an A&A or rebuild can be quite a big headache. Many opportunities for things to go wrong along the way and to be chopped by the contractors and vendors of the various products. At every step along the way, need to do own homework to check out if the suggested works are the best solution for your home or if the prices quoted are reasonable or not. You do need to check on the work very regularly or else by the time you go, it's been covered up and you won't know what they have done. I know, I know. I'm a perfectionist and should leave it to the contractor. But that's not in my character to do. Hence I am probably not going to have a landed any time soon. Need to retire first and then will have time to take on this kind of project. However, by the time I retire, I will want to spend more time travelling around and a condo is probably more appropriate as a base for that rather than a landed. No point leaving the maid around to enjoy your landed if you spend a lot of time at work or overseas. Just have a condo, lock it up and off you go on your travels. Engage the cleaning firm to come and do the cleaning when you come back. We must cut down on our reliance on maids as I believe they will become an increasingly difficult commodity to get hold of in the generations to come.
Cost of A & A or Reconstruction is gone up a lot. I have done my 12 years ago. Now is easily double. I have enjoyed in the participation of the process from design to completion. A good contractor is very important and I am fortunate to have a friend who is in this line.
Unless you have a totally reliable contractor/architect, doing an A&A or rebuild can be quite a big headache. Many opportunities for things to go wrong along the way and to be chopped by the contractors and vendors of the various products. At every step along the way, need to do own homework to check out if the suggested works are the best solution for your home or if the prices quoted are reasonable or not. You do need to check on the work very regularly or else by the time you go, it's been covered up and you won't know what they have done. I know, I know. I'm a perfectionist and should leave it to the contractor. But that's not in my character to do. Hence I am probably not going to have a landed any time soon. Need to retire first and then will have time to take on this kind of project. However, by the time I retire, I will want to spend more time travelling around and a condo is probably more appropriate as a base for that rather than a landed. No point leaving the maid around to enjoy your landed if you spend a lot of time at work or overseas. Just have a condo, lock it up and off you go on your travels. Engage the cleaning firm to come and do the cleaning when you come back. We must cut down on our reliance on maids as I believe they will become an increasingly difficult commodity to get hold of in the generations to come.
You are fortunate to have a friend who is in this line who would look after your interest instead of his/her own. The costs have indeed gone up.
I have seen some contractor who bought the land and rebuilt to sell use really poor quality material and workmanship. The wall starting cracking after one year and the colour of the wooden gate starts to decolourise. They paid so much for the house.
You are fortunate to have a friend who is in this line who would look after your interest instead of his/her own. The costs have indeed gone up.
I have seen some contractor who bought the land and rebuilt to sell use really poor quality material and workmanship. The wall starting cracking after one year and the colour of the wooden gate starts to decolourise. They paid so much for the house.
If you're going to play the renovation game, you need to do your homework and understand building materials....
It's common for hairline cracks ro appear shortly after a newly plastered wall, nothing that a coat of paint can't fix. As for wooden finishes exposed to weather.... Don't expect it to last... Best to avoid...
Get good consultants to advise you...
Fortunately not my house. I was rather careful when I select materials for my home. The composition of water to plaster is critical and the no. of coats too. Some of those plastering on the external wall was done up so quickly without time to allow for it to set before the next coat was applied. There is something that is called drying shrinkage. :D Unfortunately, these workers are being paid on project basis.
If you're going to play the renovation game, you need to do your homework and understand building materials....
It's common for hairline cracks ro appear shortly after a newly plastered wall, nothing that a coat of paint can't fix. As for wooden finishes exposed to weather.... Don't expect it to last... Best to avoid...
Get good consultants to advise you...
Wonder y so much debate.
Moral of the story is:
Buying 10 Toyotas can never be equal to buying 1 Ferrari.
Buying 10 MM condos can never be equal to buying 1 Bungalow.
Both will appreciate. But in the meantime while waiting for the appreciation to come, do you prefer to drive 10 different colored Toyotas or just drive 1 Ferrari? :cool:
I'll take the 10 Toyota's...:-P, not everyone like sport car! :2cents:
Wonder y so much debate.
Moral of the story is:
Buying 10 Toyotas can never be equal to buying 1 Ferrari.
Buying 10 MM condos can never be equal to buying 1 Bungalow.
Both will appreciate. But in the meantime while waiting for the appreciation to come, do you prefer to drive 10 different colored Toyotas or just drive 1 Ferrari? :cool:
I will take a 4mil condo in town over a 4mil bungalow in woodlands anytime :rolleyes:
Speaking of comparing apple and orange.. :cool:
In the same area where a 2000 sqft 4bd condo cost 4mil, a decent bungalow will cost > 8mil.
Choice of type of pty has always been constraint by budget, where you find the balance between your wish and your capacity.
Wonder y so much debate.
Moral of the story is:
Buying 10 Toyotas can never be equal to buying 1 Ferrari.
Buying 10 MM condos can never be equal to buying 1 Bungalow.
Both will appreciate. But in the meantime while waiting for the appreciation to come, do you prefer to drive 10 different colored Toyotas or just drive 1 Ferrari? :cool:
Perhaps you are right. If you have the class and substance there is actually no need for a Ferrari, a Toyota will be good enough.
Having said that most ferrari owners in Singapore doesnt just own 1 ferrari, they usually have many other cars, including Toyota for daily usage.
I think @Blue's point is quite the opposite...
The point is 10 Toyotas can't match 1 Ferrari even if they have the same monetary value.
This is the same as saying 10 Coach bags can't match 1 Hermes Birkin bag even if they have the same monetary value.
Perhaps you are right. If you have the class and substance there is actually no need for a Ferrari, a Toyota will be good enough.
Having said that most ferrari owners in Singapore doesnt just own 1 ferrari, they usually have many other cars, including Toyota for daily usage.
I think @Blue's point is quite the opposite...
The point is 10 Toyotas can't match 1 Ferrari even if they have the same monetary value.
This is the same as saying 10 Coach bags can't match 1 Hermes Birkin bag even if they have the same monetary value.
i think a better comparison will be 2 porsches vs 1 ferrari. which will be your poison?
for me, i will choose 2 porsches. just in case one of them gets totalled in a crash, i still have a backup vehicle. if just 1 ferrari, alamak. cry no tears. :p
phantom_opera
28-08-12, 12:05
upgraded to Mars :p
http://img6.cache.netease.com/game/2012/8/27/2012082711455237e1a.jpg
Or 1 Megan Fox to the 2 Olsen twins ...though two at the same time might swing it...
i think a better comparison will be 2 porsches vs 1 ferrari. which will be your poison?
for me, i will choose 2 porsches. just in case one of them gets totalled in a crash, i still have a backup vehicle. if just 1 ferrari, alamak. cry no tears. :p
I think @Blue's point is quite the opposite...
The point is 10 Toyotas can't match 1 Ferrari even if they have the same monetary value.
This is the same as saying 10 Coach bags can't match 1 Hermes Birkin bag even if they have the same monetary value.
I think ringo is trying to point out that, if you have substance, there is no need to show off. Carry a Birkin bag or driving a ferrari doesnt mean that you are rich. Some of them are just more immune to debt or have nothing better to do in life
Yes, I understand what @Ringo is trying to point out... which I agree and it is absolutely true. But I was just trying to say that it is a different point from what @Blue was making...
I think the point is not about showing off... of course this is with assumption that you can well afford either 1 Ferrari or 10 Toyotas.
I put it another way, since a person has only 1 butt, would you prefer that 1 butt to be in the seat of 1 Ferrari or rotate that 1 butt in 10 Toyotas?
I am referring to the dilemma of the TS who is deciding between 1 nice sem-di versus a condo and another investment property.
But I guess that is the mentality of many Singaporeans (and Asians in general?)... we don't really know how to enjoy and relax a little. Many would rather own 10 MMs than 1 nice bungalow of the same value because it makes more economical sense.... I think we need a balance somewhere.
To each his own... just my humble opinion.
I think ringo is trying to point out that, if you have substance, there is no need to show off. Carry a Birkin bag or driving a ferrari doesnt mean that you are rich. Some of them are just more immune to debt or have nothing better to do in life
landed is better.
you can bury bodies, dead or alive, in the garden. no smell to alert the neighbours.
in condo, can do that?
why not. bomb shelter. planter. false ceiling. take your pick.
landed is better.
you can bury bodies, dead or alive, in the garden. no smell to alert the neighbours.
in condo, can do that?
Landed definitely better...can build batcave cum hometheatre...+ your own batmobile garage behind the bookcases. Who needs a Ferrari? (Hamilton@ Scotts...eat yr heart out.)
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/PXd4Ph07Z6xx1Gi0rYO5Wg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDc7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/251/2012/08/20/bat-cave-theater-seating-1-jpg_201124.jpg
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/XXRXf_pTEJTteTT_le9vEQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDc7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/251/2012/08/20/bat-cave-theater-seating-3-jpg_201124.jpg
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/kUrEk7eVQaXZXPWCiUbATg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDc7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/http://l.yimg.com/os/251/2012/08/20/bat-cave-theater-seating-4-jpg_201124.jpg
why not. bomb shelter. planter. false ceiling. take your pick.
planter is so shallow, how to bury deep?
false ceiling is like 30cm depth, how to bury? if guy died cock stand, cannot fit into false ceiling.
landed wide open space, can bury bodies deep deep, and hence no smell. if there are any smell, will be quickly dissipated away by the open spaces.
the giveaway is always the smell.
What happened to the original TS? All this talk of Ferraris, dead bodies and Bat caves must have scared him away. Wonder what his final decision was or will be?
Yes, I understand what @Ringo is trying to point out... which I agree and it is absolutely true. But I was just trying to say that it is a different point from what @Blue was making...
I think the point is not about showing off... of course this is with assumption that you can well afford either 1 Ferrari or 10 Toyotas.
I put it another way, since a person has only 1 butt, would you prefer that 1 butt to be in the seat of 1 Ferrari or rotate that 1 butt in 10 Toyotas?
I am referring to the dilemma of the TS who is deciding between 1 nice sem-di versus a condo and another investment property.
But I guess that is the mentality of many Singaporeans (and Asians in general?)... we don't really know how to enjoy and relax a little. Many would rather own 10 MMs than 1 nice bungalow of the same value because it makes more economical sense.... I think we need a balance somewhere.
To each his own... just my humble opinion.
I got a friend who owns 4 cars including 2 Ferrari and he is living in condo. At the same time, I do have neighbors driving lambo, RR and other exotic cars living in condo as well.
Only goes to show that living in landed doesnt mean you are loaded and vice versa.
Or 1 Megan Fox to the 2 Olsen twins ...though two at the same time might swing it...
megan fox preggie liao.. i opt for olsen twins. :D
I got a friend who owns 4 cars including 2 Ferrari and he is living in condo. At the same time, I do have neighbors driving lambo, RR and other exotic cars living in condo as well.
Only goes to show that living in landed doesnt mean you are loaded and vice versa.
luxury condos pricier than ulu landed.. :2cents:
both also out of my reach. :o
I got a friend who owns 4 cars including 2 Ferrari and he is living in condo. At the same time, I do have neighbors driving lambo, RR and other exotic cars living in condo as well.
Only goes to show that living in landed doesnt mean you are loaded and vice versa.
this forum consist of poor fellows only is it?
nobody here dare to claim they live in condo and own many supercars?
people here like to claim their friend this, their friend that to support their point.
or rich forummers here very humble?
What can u buy wif $4M in today's market?
1) A semi d in D15 for own stay
vs
2) 3 x studio / 1bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 2 to rent out)
vs
3) 2 x 3bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 1 to rent out)
Which will u choose? Do u live to eat or do u live to eat?
this forum consist of poor fellows only is it?
nobody here dare to claim they live in condo and own many supercars?
people here like to claim their friend this, their friend that to support their point.
or rich forummers here very humble?
How to own many supercars when stay in condo? Most condos only can accomodate 1 allocated parking lot per unit. The rest of the cars park at public carpark? :D
And somemore no private single lot hor, wait your neighbour's toyota parked beside your ferrari, open doors and dent ur ferrari, then hit and run, u cannot find the culprit and oso lan lan!
I got a friend who owns 4 cars including 2 Ferrari and he is living in condo. At the same time, I do have neighbors driving lambo, RR and other exotic cars living in condo as well.
Only goes to show that living in landed doesnt mean you are loaded and vice versa.
LOL, i oso got friend drives supercar but stay in HDB, so wat does tat imply?
Go clubbing flash nice car to attract babes, then after the party is over, dun dare to bring the babe home? :doh:
What can u buy wif $4M in today's market?
1) A semi d in D15 for own stay
vs
2) 3 x studio / 1bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 2 to rent out)
vs
3) 2 x 3bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 1 to rent out)
Which will u choose? Do u live to eat or do u live to eat?
Why not a corner terrace in D.15 and 1 MM in CCR?
Why not a corner terrace in D.15 and 1 MM in CCR?
Corner terrace not necessary cheaper than semi d. It all depends on the land and built up size. Have you seen a $7M corner terrace in Seletar Hills?
I think more likely an inter-terrace in D15 and 1MM in CCR would be more appropriate for your statement.
For me, I chose a semi d + 3 bedder condo in OCR.
CCR - even Carrefour cannot take it and hv to say bye bye.
Your choice of residence is not about being loaded (or showing you are loaded) it is about your choice of a lifestyle.
Same goes for your choice of transportation be it a Ferrari or Toyota. Again it's not about showing off or showing that you are loaded (I don't think anybody cares anyway)
Having said that, in Singapore's context, the average landed generally costs more than the average condo.
I got a friend who owns 4 cars including 2 Ferrari and he is living in condo. At the same time, I do have neighbors driving lambo, RR and other exotic cars living in condo as well.
Only goes to show that living in landed doesnt mean you are loaded and vice versa.
Haha... thread as usual starts to take a life of its own and spin out of context... LOL
Anyway, I am sure anybody with a $600K annual income will be prudent enough to make the right choices.
What happened to the original TS? All this talk of Ferraris, dead bodies and Bat caves must have scared him away. Wonder what his final decision was or will be?
I think you are very ignorant.
You want to park 3 Ferrari or Lamborigini in sheltered basement car park? No problem if you live in luxury condos! :D
This is not the same for landed as you can't park 3 cars under fully sheltered area in your own landed compound unless you live in a GCBs. :doh:
How to own many supercars when stay in condo? Most condos only can accomodate 1 allocated parking lot per unit. The rest of the cars park at public carpark? :D
And somemore no private single lot hor, wait your neighbour's toyota parked beside your ferrari, open doors and dent ur ferrari, then hit and run, u cannot find the culprit and oso lan lan!
What can u buy wif $4M in today's market?
1) A semi d in D15 for own stay
vs
2) 3 x studio / 1bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 2 to rent out)
vs
3) 2 x 3bdrm condo in CCR (1 to stay and 1 to rent out)
Which will u choose? Do u live to eat or do u live to eat?
1) is pure own stay , how is it comparable to 2) and 3) where there is invest element ?
If it's for own stay, choose whichevere you think suit u best with a 4mil budget.
Btw how big can u get in D15 for 4 mil ? It's not exactly nice house is it ?
Blue should be living in mm landed. Utility bill only 140 per month. Perhaps dont even own a car.
I think you are very ignorant.
You want to park 3 Ferrari or Lamborigini in sheltered basement car park? No problem if you live in luxury condos! :D
This is not the same for landed as you can't park 3 cars under fully sheltered area in your own landed compound unless you live in a GCBs. :doh:
that is exactly the reason why a friend of mine choose to live in condo instead of landed.
Has to choose condo that is. In the CBD to have a few parking lots. Have seen one red Ferrari always on the 7th floor of the condo carpark with no other cars.
that is exactly the reason why a friend of mine choose to live in condo instead of landed.
Has to choose condo that is. In the CBD to have a few parking lots. Have seen one red Ferrari always on the 7th floor of the condo carpark with no other cars.
older condos around CCR area usually have ample lots to go around, especially if it located near MRT.
Yup. Even rather new city fringe condos too.
older condos around CCR area usually have ample lots to go around, especially if it located near MRT.
I think you are very ignorant.
You want to park 3 Ferrari or Lamborigini in sheltered basement car park? No problem if you live in luxury condos! :D
This is not the same for landed as you can't park 3 cars under fully sheltered area in your own landed compound unless you live in a GCBs. :doh:
So many landed can park 3 cars and abv. I can even park 5 for my plc! Which luxury condos can park more than 2 cars? Hamilton at Scotts can only park 2.
U r not just ignorant, but blind. I forgot that sour grapes hv no eyes!
1) is pure own stay , how is it comparable to 2) and 3) where there is invest element ?
If it's for own stay, choose whichevere you think suit u best with a 4mil budget.
Btw how big can u get in D15 for 4 mil ? It's not exactly nice house is it ?
Lol, own stay no investmt value? Then u better pitch tent at the beach for own stay than to spend millions on MM condos, hoping tat the price will appreciate!
That is funny, so many landed can park 3 cars along the road outside their house is it? No wonder so many fighting and quarrels over car park space outside their landed properties, and by the way, they are all not fully sheltered. :p
Your landed can park 3 cars fully sheltered like basement car park so that will not get hit by sun, rain, and bird shit? :beats-me-man:
So many landed can park 3 cars and abv. I can even park 5 for my plc! Which luxury condos can park more than 2 cars? Hamilton at Scotts can only park 2.
U r not just ignorant, but blind. I forgot that sour grapes hv no eyes!
Know of someone who can park 8 cars side by side in his house near lee don area. Teo chee hean's just pass on mother stay next to him.
Blue should be living in mm landed. Utility bill only 140 per month. Perhaps dont even own a car.
Even a MM landed is easily 5 times bigger than ur typical MM condo. In terms of no. of cars, surely i cant win u cos i only hv one supercar as compared to ur 10 toyotas :)
i even hv a 70" tv at home while u hv 10x 32" tvs at home right?
That is funny, so many landed can park 3 cars along the road outside their house is it? No wonder so many fighting and quarrels over car park space outside their landed properties, and by the way, they are all not fully sheltered. :p
Your landed can park 3 cars fully sheltered like basement car park so that will not get hit by sun, rain, and bird shit? :beats-me-man:
Of cos 3 cars sheltered lah, anyway, no point explaining so much, u continue ur dream in luxury condos wif unlimited parking lots, might be haunted tats y nobody park!
Lol, own stay no investmt value? Then u better pitch tent at the beach for own stay than to spend millions on MM condos, hoping tat the price will appreciate!
Calm down. I was merely saying your 3 choices made so sense as they are not equitable.
You are talking about own stay, then stick to it. For your own stay, I repeat, pick whichever one that fit your imagination best, be it a 4mil 2000 sqft house in D15, or a 4mil 2000 sqft condo in better area.
If all you have is just one roof, whatever "investment value" is just feel good since you need to monetize it, and replacement cost is equally high.
Even a MM landed is easily 5 times bigger than ur typical MM condo. In terms of no. of cars, surely i cant win u cos i only hv one supercar as compared to ur 10 toyotas :)
i even hv a 70" tv at home while u hv 10x 32" tvs at home right?
1) You dont own a supercar so don't speak like you do just because you live in landed, and not all landed owner own supercar either. Some couldnt even afford to have one (perhaps you are one of them)
2) No one in this world that I know of will own 10 toyota for personal use. So perhaps you should stop using this lousy analogy for comparison.
3) I dont own a MM, but I believe MM or miniature landed for you is possible due to your $140 per month utilities bills.
you EVEN have a 70" tv?? are we supposed to go :scared-1:?
if you want to show off, at least tell us that you have a 10 seater basement movie theater with 150" screen, 11.2 system with a see through view of your swimming pool. pathetic :doh:
this is usually what happen when you try to put all your eggs in one basket.
Two sisters have sued their older brother in order to include an $8 million house off Stevens Road in the pool of assets left behind by their late mother.
http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/2-sisters-sue-brother-over-8-million-2-storey-house-20120828
I'm curious, how do u know he has only 140 utility bill ?
Calm down. I was merely saying your 3 choices made so sense as they are not equitable.
You are talking about own stay, then stick to it. For your own stay, I repeat, pick whichever one that fit your imagination best, be it a 4mil 2000 sqft house in D15, or a 4mil 2000 sqft condo in better area.
If all you have is just one roof, whatever "investment value" is just feel good since you need to monetize it, and replacement cost is equally high.
Hv to correct u that $4m can get a 4000-5000 sqft built up landed in D15. It is enjoymt and investmt at the same time.
Vs $4m 2000sqft condo, i think u be stucked for a long long time :) i hv seen a penthouse of that size trying to offload for $2.5m and for 2 yrs it is still avail for sale!
Hv to correct u that $4m can get a 4000-5000 sqft built up landed in D15. It is enjoymt and investmt at the same time.
Vs $4m 2000sqft condo, i think u be stucked for a long long time :) i hv seen a penthouse of that size trying to offload for $2.5m and for 2 yrs it is still avail for sale!
Actually I meant 2000 land. When we say landed sqft , it's by default land size right ? I thought it's understood. Anyway am I right or not , 4mil all in for a 2000ish land in D15 ? Dun forget a&a or rebuild cost.
And also look at you angle, "offload" and such. This is not investment, it's for own stay, offload what ? Your are constantly remembering your only roof as investment . If for investment, it is a totally diff discussion altogether. For own stay, a young couple will very likely find rivergate more appealing than an small house out of town. Each has his own liking.
I'm curious, how do u know he has only 140 utility bill ?
this is what blue wrote in another thread. he could be right actually. perhaps his landed or his Ferrari is parked in JB.
I am clocking only $140 per month on utilities in a landed. :D This is despite of the fact that I have 5 bathrooms, so 5 sanitary fittings charges.
1) You dont own a supercar so don't speak like you do just because you live in landed, and not all landed owner own supercar either. Some couldnt even afford to have one (perhaps you are one of them)
2) No one in this world that I know of will own 10 toyota for personal use. So perhaps you should stop using this lousy analogy for comparison.
3) I dont own a MM, but I believe MM or miniature landed for you is possible due to your $140 per month utilities bills.
you EVEN have a 70" tv?? are we supposed to go :scared-1:?
if you want to show off, at least tell us that you have a 10 seater basement movie theater with 150" screen, 11.2 system with a see through view of your swimming pool. pathetic :doh:
Before you call someone who owns a semi d and a condo and a supercar and a 70" tv PATHETIC, please take a look at your own house first.
Perhaps you just need to turn one round and you can see your entire house. :doh:
Actually I meant 2000 land. When we say landed sqft , it's by default land size right ? I thought it's understood. Anyway am I right or not , 4mil all in for a 2000ish land in D15 ? Dun forget a&a or rebuild cost.
And also look at you angle, "offload" and such. This is not investment, it's for own stay, offload what ? Your are constantly remembering your only roof as investment . If for investment, it is a totally diff discussion altogether. For own stay, a young couple will very likely find rivergate more appealing than an small house out of town. Each has his own liking.
Hv to correct u again:
1) If u compare a landed and a condo, u use built-up sqft and not land sqft
2) U must be vested in rivergate, but unfortunately, many young couples wld prefer to buy landed than condos if budget allows, so face it, nothing you say could change the threadstarter's or any others' mindsets. See the thread title: "Upgrading to landed" - This represents the mindsets of the general public.
Gd luck with your Rivergate investment! :doh:
Before you call someone who owns a semi d and a condo and a supercar and a 70" tv PATHETIC, please take a look at your own house first.
Perhaps you just need to turn one round and you can see your entire house. :doh:
you are not just pathetic, perhaps you are also having some sort of insecurity complex problem as well.
who is interest in your supercar semi-d 70"tv even if it is real. Did you also framed and hang the carton box of your 70"tv outside your gate to let your neighbors know that you just bought a 70"tv? Like HEY LOOK HERE, I AM RICH. I OWN A 70" TV
$140 monthly utilities bills for all that? I hope the stuff you are smoking are really good ones.
The truly rich that value lifestyle enough to buy supercars will either stay in an upmarket condo, or GCB, or at the bottom end, a bungalow. Very few will opt for semi-Ds as it neither affords space, amenities nor views.
phantom_opera
29-08-12, 14:07
Mr B will tell u property to crash 50% by 2015 ... if buy landed will be hit hard
http://www.straitstimes.com/sites/straitstimes.com/files/imagecache/story-gallery-featured/ryhur1e.jpg
relax bros...no need to get all worked up. There are always pros and cons for both landed and condo. Which type you want to buy, you do your own needs /wants analysis or has the greatest potential and decide.
If property crash 50% or more, not only landed will be hit but all condos and apt and even HDB as as well. As for which will be hardest hit, go and do your own supply/demand analysis.
As I have said before, property goes in cycles , as long as you have holding power, what goes down must come up and vice versa. Just be happy and content with what you ultimately decide to buy.
Hv to correct u again:
1) If u compare a landed and a condo, u use built-up sqft and not land sqft
it's ok, I want to know: Is 4 mil a realistic price to pay today for a 2000ish decent land house in D15 (including A&A) or not ?
dun worry about my investment... it's my problem ;)
The truly rich that value lifestyle enough to buy supercars will either stay in an upmarket condo, or GCB, or at the bottom end, a bungalow. Very few will opt for semi-Ds as it neither affords space, amenities nor views.
agreed totally. for the not truly rich, one simply finds the best balance between his wish and his limit.
Regulators
29-08-12, 15:58
Truly rich want to stay away from people
http://www.livingdesignhome.com/2011/07/madonnas-house/
Truly rich want to stay away from people
http://www.livingdesignhome.com/2011/07/madonnas-house/
China Wine?
Regulators
29-08-12, 16:07
that one fake rich
China Wine?
it's ok, I want to know: Is 4 mil a realistic price to pay today for a 2000ish decent land house in D15 (including A&A) or not ?
dun worry about my investment... it's my problem ;)
Y not? I can still find brand new ones with land size 2000sqft below $4M in D15, no need for A&A:
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/11033367/for-sale-prime-district-brand-new-inter
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/11033443/for-sale-brand-new-terrace-opera-estate-premium-qu
As for your investment in so called CCR Little India luxury MM condo with unlimited parking lots in URA public carpark, dun even try to pass on your bad investment sorrows to others.
Wise pple make wise investment choices. Thats y the threadstarter make $600K per annum as he makes wise choice. You r not there and yet want to talk like a real property investmt expert. Please count the $$$ in your wallet first before even write on this thread.
phantom_opera
29-08-12, 16:11
that one fake rich
fake never-mind, con is worst :eek:
you are not just pathetic, perhaps you are also having some sort of insecurity complex problem as well.
who is interest in your supercar semi-d 70"tv even if it is real. Did you also framed and hang the carton box of your 70"tv outside your gate to let your neighbors know that you just bought a 70"tv? Like HEY LOOK HERE, I AM RICH. I OWN A 70" TV
$140 monthly utilities bills for all that? I hope the stuff you are smoking are really good ones.
Now I know y I can buy and stay landed and u can't. Bec u spend all the time sulking and complaining abt life and how others do better while u dun make the change urself. U follow the majority and invest in MM condos thinking that u can strike it rich once an idiot in this forum buys your story. PATHETIC is not the only word to describe your state & inferior complexity, but u r truly HOPELESS. :doh:
Now I know y I can buy and stay landed and u can't. Bec u spend all the time sulking and complaining abt life and how others do better while u dun make the change urself. U follow the majority and invest in MM condos thinking that u can strike it rich once an idiot in this forum buys your story. PATHETIC is not the only word to describe your state & inferior complexity, but u r truly HOPELESS. :doh:
perhaps your desperate attempt to brag about yourself and your belongings is a good indication that you are nothing but an empty vessel pretending to someone whom you are not.
$140 utilities bill for a semi-d? supercar? are you stealing water and electricity from your neighbors?
.......
Wise pple make wise investment choices. Thats y the threadstarter make $600K per annum as he makes wise choice. You r not there and yet want to talk like a real property investmt expert. Please count the $$$ in your wallet first before even write on this thread.
how much money do you make per year consistently? i think people here wan to know whether your posts have validity.
how much money do you make per year consistently? i think people here wan to know whether your posts have validity.
nowadays no money no talk. sigh...
no wonder pple always see me no up. :( :D
how much money do you make per year consistently? i think people here wan to know whether your posts have validity.
I dun see the need to declare how much I make. The ability to stay in a landed + owning a super car is already a testament. Surely, I don't make $5K a month to be able to afford these!
In all purchases, it's not just abt affordability. It's abt the willingness and the guts to make the wise decision.
Whether I speak the truth or not of what I own and my utilities bills, the one up there and my own conscience knows it. I dun hv to prove to the peeps here who are already vested in something else and try to sway others into their same narrow mindset.
The wise one is the humble one who learns from those who make real $$$$ from properties, and not learn from those who hvn't even make a single cent and talk c**k in this forum. :cheers3:
perhaps your desperate attempt to brag about yourself and your belongings is a good indication that you are nothing but an empty vessel pretending to someone whom you are not.
$140 utilities bill for a semi-d? supercar? are you stealing water and electricity from your neighbors?
2x HOPELESS for u!!! :doh:
......
The wise one is the humble one who learns from those who make real $$$$ from properties, and not learn from those who hvn't even make a single cent and talk c**k in this forum. :cheers3:
wise word indeed.
how do we know who is who?
1) the wise one
2) those who make real $$$$ from properties
3) those who hvn't even make a single cent
i am interested to learn from type 2 only.
i dont care much to learn from type 1, learn alot but dont make money also no use.
type 3 people no need to say.
err...can ask which type are you? i know you are rich, but is your wealth derived mostly from real estate investment/speculation or other areas like equities and futures trading.
i am type 1, the humble one who learns from those who make real $$$$ from properties
I dun see the need to declare how much I make. The ability to stay in a landed + owning a super car is already a testament. Surely, I don't make $5K a month to be able to afford these!
In all purchases, it's not just abt affordability. It's abt the willingness and the guts to make the wise decision.
Whether I speak the truth or not of what I own and my utilities bills, the one up there and my own conscience knows it. I dun hv to prove to the peeps here who are already vested in something else and try to sway others into their same narrow mindset.
The wise one is the humble one who learns from those who make real $$$$ from properties, and not learn from those who hvn't even make a single cent and talk c**k in this forum. :cheers3:
1) Its hard to believe that someone living in a big semi-d only pays $140 in utilities bills. Perhaps the reason why you need to buy a landed in D19 that is close to bartley MRT is because you dont drive. Did you mea superKAH or supercar?
2) Its also hard for me to believe that someone driving a superKAH(by his definition) will sneak into other people's condo just to use the facilities. http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=13966&page=2
3) in one thread, you tell us not to buy condo and here is what you said.
Thats why dun buy condos, buy landed! No point squeezing with stingy residents especially those MM owners who paid the least but want the most? :scared-4:
However you also say that you bought a unit at The Palette, which is a 99LH development in Pasir Ris. And again you tell the world that your unit is the best etc.
So my question to you aren't you contradicting yourself with your inconsistency and flip flop from month to month. What sort of sound investment advise have you really given us?
However what I do know is that you are consistently using this forum as a platform to tell the world that you own landed property and anything you touch is gold.
wise word indeed.
how do we know who is who?
1) the wise one
2) those who make real $$$$ from properties
3) those who hvn't even make a single cent
i am interested to learn from type 2 only.
i dont care much about type 1, learn alot but dont make money also no use.
type 3 people no need to say.
err...can ask which type are you? i know you are rich, but is your wealth derived mostly from real estate investment/speculation or other areas like equities and futures trading.
No lah, I'm not rich, I'm pathetic to make foolish decision to buy landed and supercar and made over a million $ only whereas I shld hv invested my monies in multiple CCR MM condos and stay in one shit hole myself, I could hv made multi-millions wor :banghead:
So many "wise" ones in this forum telling u to invest in mm condos, u can learn from them. They all hide their monies and gold bars in the ceiling cos not much storage space leh...keke :cheers2:
1) Its hard to believe that someone living in a big semi-d only pays $140 in utilities bills. Perhaps the reason why you need to buy a landed in D19 that is close to bartley MRT is because you dont drive. Did you mea superKAH or supercar?
2) Its also hard for me to believe that someone driving a superKAH(by his definition) will sneak into other people's condo just to use the facilities. http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=13966&page=2
3) in one thread, you tell us not to buy condo and here is what you said.
However you also say that you bought a unit at The Palette, which is a 99LH development in Pasir Ris. And again you tell the world that your unit is the best etc.
So my question to you aren't you contradicting yourself with your inconsistency and flip flop from month to month. What sort of sound investment advise have you really given us?
However what I do know is that you are consistently using this forum as a platform to tell the world that you own landed property and anything you touch is gold.
Kudos to u to bother to dig and read my past threads. Y so much interest in me, my assets & my investments? Or r u hving 2nd thots abt ur own investment philosophy and doubt whether u r in the right track?
Please spend ur time in strategising how to get rid of ur investmt without taking a hit. Persuade more agents to sell ur MM condo for u. Dun be a PI in this forum, it just reaps u no positive results. :p
1..........
3) in one thread, you tell us not to buy condo and here is what you said.
However you also say that you bought a unit at The Palette, which is a 99LH development in Pasir Ris. And again you tell the world that your unit is the best etc.
So my question to you aren't you contradicting yourself with your inconsistency and flip flop from month to month. What sort of sound investment advise have you really given us?
.........
hi Ringo, is there anything wrong with flip flopping. we are talking about investment and trading right?
buy then sell, or sell then buy.
what wrong's with changing stances in investment and trading?
afterall, if stock price in company A continues to fall, do we continue to average down or cut loss?
hi Ringo, is there anything wrong with flip flopping. we are talking about investment and trading right?
buy then sell, or sell then buy.
what wrong's with changing stances in investment and trading?
afterall, if stock price in company A continues to fall, do we continue to average down or cut loss?
No, we are talking about trading stocks, we are talking about buying a long term big ticket non liquid assets such as landed property and condo, where you need to pay 3 to 6% stamp duty on purchase and you cant sell for the next 3 to 4 years due to SSD.
it's ok, I want to know: Is 4 mil a realistic price to pay today for a 2000ish decent land house in D15 (including A&A) or not ?
dun worry about my investment... it's my problem ;)
i think about >3.3mio++ can get a brand new 2000sqft terrace. For semi-d, should be much higher...
The truly rich that value lifestyle enough to buy supercars will either stay in an upmarket condo, or GCB, or at the bottom end, a bungalow. Very few will opt for semi-Ds as it neither affords space, amenities nor views.
Tat is true. But neither do upmkt condo or GCB or bungalow provides space, amenites and views altogether. Try walking out of a GCB in Watten Estate to buy groceries (no amenities). Try storing brooms and ladders in an upmkt condo (no space). Try looking out at the windows and u see another tall condo opposite with a peeping tom holding a telescope (no view).
The truly rich ones can afford to have their supercars parked in a flooded basement carpark like St Regis and then scrap the next day and buy new ones. They can also afford to go workshop every week to respray their dented doors caused by their neighbours' kids and maids :rolleyes:
I surely cannot afford my previous one and only supercar to be abused this way, thats y I bgt a semi-d in the heartlands to guard against these potential hazzards.
Tat is true. But neither do upmkt condo or GCB or bungalow provides space, amenites and views altogether. Try walking out of a GCB in Watten Estate to buy groceries (no amenities). Try storing brooms and ladders in an upmkt condo (no space). Try looking out at the windows and u see another tall condo opposite with a peeping tom holding a telescope (no view).
The truly rich ones can afford to have their supercars parked in a flooded basement carpark like St Regis and then scrap the next day and buy new ones. They can also afford to go workshop every week to respray their dented doors caused by their neighbours' kids and maids :rolleyes:
I surely cannot afford my previous one and only supercar to be abused this way, thats y I bgt a semi-d in the heartlands to guard against these potential hazzards.
And not forgeting my semi d has amenities (MRT, groceries, food) within walking distance, unblocked views as well as space to store all my cleaning utensils to overcome the shortcomings. Haiz, what a bad investment choice yeah? :D
it's ok, I want to know: Is 4 mil a realistic price to pay today for a 2000ish decent land house in D15 (including A&A) or not ?
dun worry about my investment... it's my problem ;)
$4mil can probably get u a decent semiD (thin line on budget) or nice newly renovated corner terrace in D15. Obviously, prices will differ based on exact location eg. Along main rd or quiet smaller road
Those 3 or even 4 storeys high on MM plot of land? :beats-me-man:
$4mil can probably get u a decent semiD (thin line on budget) or nice newly renovated corner terrace in D15. Obviously, prices will differ based on exact location eg. Along main rd or quiet smaller road
Any GCBs within 500m to MRT, food groceries?
That says so much about how valuable your semi-D is? :beats-me-man:
I thought if want to buy good landed, must be at least bungalow in quiet quiet location with very cars passing by and large land space to park at least 2 cars in sheltered garage within the compound?
Inviting friends over still a problem because no place to park? Later their supercar get scratched if park along road-side how? :doh:
Think buy landed better prepare to have a compound that can park at least 10 cars, so must buy GCBs! :p
And not forgeting my semi d has amenities (MRT, groceries, food) within walking distance, unblocked views as well as space to store all my cleaning utensils to overcome the shortcomings. Haiz, what a bad investment choice yeah? :D
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