View Full Version : Property bubble: the immigration and population factor
phantom_opera
27-07-12, 11:05
Read today's paper:
About 350,000 new blood (92k+ new SCs, 260k new SPRs) since 2007
Working individuals accounted for 48 per cent of the new PRs and 38 per cent of the new citizens.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ulP8elDepYo/TckSgUYzm-I/AAAAAAAAAJQ/uYdHDTCpMOU/s1600/Singapore+PR+Approval+Numbers+per+year.png
If you factor in 2005/2006 of another 100k SPRs, the numbers come to about 360k new SPRs and 100k new SCs. A total of close to 500,000 new blood.
Stats from garmen in 2011 shows we have 532k SPRs (now probably 550k).
Judging from the red hot HDB rental market, I think most of the 360k new SPRs are still renting
Wild Falcon
27-07-12, 11:59
New revelation. The majority of PRs and new citizens are "dependents". Only 48% of PR and 38% of new citizens are productive and working. Which means 52% of PR and 62% of new citizens are dependents. Which means every working PR brings more ah ma and ah gong and father and mother and spouse to become PR and add to the dependency ratio. Faint.
New revelation. The majority of PRs and new citizens are "dependents". Only 48% of PR and 38% of new citizens are productive and working. Which means 52% of PR and 62% of new citizens are dependents. Which means every working PR brings more ah ma and ah gong and father and mother and spouse to become PR and add to the dependency ratio. Faint.
wouldn't this worsen the problem of aging population? PAP govt really no brains leh.
ikan bilis
27-07-12, 13:11
no-lah.... dependents should be more like 2-3 kids... ica cannot be that goondu 1...
New revelation. The majority of PRs and new citizens are "dependents". Only 48% of PR and 38% of new citizens are productive and working. Which means 52% of PR and 62% of new citizens are dependents. Which means every working PR brings more ah ma and ah gong and father and mother and spouse to become PR and add to the dependency ratio. Faint.
wa, heads you win, tails i lose.
1) PR & new citizens 100% working, complain compete with singaporeans for jobs.
2) PR 48%, new citizens 38% working, complain dependency ratio increase.
the non-working PR and new citizen no need to consume food,water, electricity in singapore ?
Wild Falcon
27-07-12, 14:09
Don't think so. Usually either bring a non-working uneducated spouse or parents. just look at the PRCs which is the bulk of the PRs, how many bring kids??????
no-lah.... dependents should be more like 2-3 kids... ica cannot be that goondu 1...
Where is this 48% 38% thing ? In the paper ??
phantom_opera
27-07-12, 14:10
Where is this 48% 38% thing ? In the paper ??
Check today's Today either paper (1st page) or online
Don't think so. Usually either bring a non-working uneducated spouse or parents. just look at the PRCs which is the bulk of the PRs, how many bring kids??????
A lot of PRC ladies accompany their kids over for education hence the term "pei-du mama'
If you look at the chart, 2008 was a bumper year for PRs (read below to understand why-taken from ST in 2008). These kids would have just graduated last yr or this depending on their course and since they are bonded to work here for 6 years, will be competing with all of the SC workforce for jobs as well. :
The Straits Times Forum, 20 Feb 08 (http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BForum/Story/STIStory_208401.html)
Help grads who do as well as foreign talent
RECENTLY, I befriended a group of scholars from China studying at my alma mater, Nanyang Technological University (NTU). They were in their late teens and were attending foundation courses in English and maths before starting their undergraduate studies. In their five-year sojourn at NTU, they will be given free lodging and a monthly allowance of $500 each. Needless to say, they do not have to pay for their tuition fees. When they graduate, they must work in Singapore for six years as part of their ‘payback” bond. A highly conservative calculation of their five-year tenure at NTU suggests that each will cost the Government or NTU some $70,000. That is, $30,000 for their five-year tuition fees, including the charges for their foundation courses, and some $40,000 for hostel accommodation and their monthly stipends. I graduated from NTU five years ago, with a good honours degree.
I was in the top 15 per cent of my cohort – and performed better than some of these scholars. While studying at NTU, I had to work as a pizza delivery boy to earn my allowance. Upon graduation, I had to start paying off a $24,000-student loan.
Why are Singaporeans like me not treated as considerately as such scholars? My study loan took five years to pay off after I started working. The China scholars receive financial support, a free education and start their working lives debt free. Their six-year bond is seen as a contribution to Singapore.
Am I not contributing as much, if not more? Non-scholar Singaporeans are not treated in quite the same way as foreign talent, regardless of how well we perform. The disparity is disheartening.
Don’t Singaporeans like me who have done well deserve some relief? True, local scholarships are available. But not every Singaporean who graduated well, gets one.
Can the NTU or the Education Ministry tell me why graduates like myself don’t deserve some relief or reward for doing as well as, or better than, some of the foreign talent?
Zhou Zhiqiang
Check today's Today either paper (1st page) or online
Thanks !
Btw I look at your chart, 2007-2010 alone already 230k PRs. That means from 2011 to 1st half of 2012, only 30k PRs granted. Gov really tightening on this.
Wild Falcon
27-07-12, 14:29
I thought about the peidu mama tingy as well. But then surely these peidu mamas are not qualified enough to be given PR? U mean those peidu mama working as masseurs, coffee shop beer ladies and streetwalkers are given PR? The stats are for PR and new citizens, not those on social visit passes. But you could be right. i heard many streetwalkers and massage ladies are actually PRs....
Don't think so. Usually either bring a non-working uneducated spouse or parents. just look at the PRCs which is the bulk of the PRs, how many bring kids??????
bring kid good or no good?
bring non-working uneducated spouse or parent good or no good?
100% PR and new citizen working good or no good?
what is the main point of your argument? :beats-me-man:
@equalizer: scholar system == meritocracy
Wild Falcon
27-07-12, 15:13
At least i have an opinion. Use some brain. How could bringing an aged parent along good? Unless your only concern is will it increase my property value? Its some statistic shared with us -first time Singaporeans are given insight into our population breakdown and you have no views? Or everything is correct as long as its PAP? why does our govt suddenly share the stats? Obviously to seek our opinions right?
Do you have an opinion? What is your view on the article? Or no views? That is the problem with our education system. Your only concern in life is your property value and how to get your child into a school?
There is no "argument" - just discussion on the observation on the new statistics shared. 'If you have no opinion, u don't have to ask people why they have.
bring kid good or no good?
bring non-working uneducated spouse or parent good or no good?
100% PR and new citizen working good or no good?
what is the main point of your argument? :beats-me-man:
Wild Falcon
27-07-12, 15:22
Of course there is a difference betwene bringing kids and bringing in parents. Remember the main reason for the influx of immigrants is to solve our aging population and spur the economy. Bringing kids at least help solve the problem. Bringing middle age spouse or parents don't.
I have a feeling the same gang will come in with their flame war and how influx of foreigners should increase because property will huat.
by now we already know pap policies are short sighted.
I thought about the peidu mama tingy as well. But then surely these peidu mamas are not qualified enough to be given PR? U mean those peidu mama working as masseurs, coffee shop beer ladies and streetwalkers are given PR? The stats are for PR and new citizens, not those on social visit passes. But you could be right. i heard many streetwalkers and massage ladies are actually PRs....
I think it was part of a package deal. I may be wrong but any parent accompanying the child who qualified for the education pakage would be accorded PR status - the reason being that the tenure of education would easily run into 3 or more yrs and it would be impractical for the parent to keep going to Immigration to renew visitors pass. If you can recall way back in the past news reports, there was a lot of hype of getting in foreign talent in 07/08 but because it was extremely difficult to attract them from their high paying jobs in their local countries, some 'bright spark" thought of recuriting them right at inception (i.e. whilst they were still schooling), hence a campaign was run overseas to rope them in with a lot of perks. To ensure that they contributed back to the economy, the 6-yr working bond was also instituted. I think a few countries were targetted but the highest success rate was from China. The results of that campaign is probably the reason for the spike you see in 08.
ikan bilis
27-07-12, 16:00
peidu mama and the kid should be under student passes.... not pr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Study_mama
http://www.mha.gov.sg/news_details.aspx?nid=NTg1-BAsgl2eOEEc%3D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and now in 2012... i heard is dam difficult to get pr even for working professionals....
peidu mama and the kid should be under student passes.... not pr...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Study_mama
http://www.mha.gov.sg/news_details.aspx?nid=NTg1-BAsgl2eOEEc%3D
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and now in 2012... i heard is dam difficult to get pr even for working professionals....
Only the kid would need the student pass. For the peidu mama, there is a distinction between getting a work permit, visit pass and PR status. Most of them will apply for a long-term visit pass 1st but because a lot of them wanted to earn some $$$, after 1 yr, they can apply for a work permit. With the work permit in hand, they can then apply for PR. A lot of them were probably tempted to apply for PR so that they could buy HDB etc. Back in the gd ol' days, it was not that difficult to obtain PR status although it has been tighthen significantly of late. In fact, the chart by Thread starter clearly shows the tightening trend.
An important point to note is that the kid (once he graduates) would most probably be given a work permit by default because he is bonded to work here for 6 years. It would be kinda ridiculous to reject him because it would have wasted all the education grants/subsidies if they send him back.
At least i have an opinion. Use some brain. How could bringing an aged parent along good? ..........
There is no "argument" - just discussion on the observation on the new statistics shared. 'If you have no opinion, u don't have to ask people why they have.
my "argument" very simple as my brain is simple.
1) they are not competing for jobs with singaporeans.
2) they increased consumption in singapore.
so in effect, they are like long term tourist who spend money in singapore.
so in your opinion,
why bringing an aged parent, non-educated spouse (who are not working in singapore) along not good ?
phantom_opera
27-07-12, 17:54
Median for 3r, 4r, 5r HDB
TOA PAYOH - * $1,980 $2,500 $2,700
TAMPINES - - $2,000 $2,350 $2,540
In terms of median rental, there is little diff btn TPY and Tampines nowadays ...
and HDB rental is red hot ... with a median rental of $2540 for 5r HDB in Tampines
And the yield is best for 3r HDB ... the MM equivalent of condos
my "argument" very simple as my brain is simple.
1) they are not competing for jobs with singaporeans.
2) they increased consumption in singapore.
so in effect, they are like long term tourist who spend money in singapore.
so in your opinion,
why bringing an aged parent, non-educated spouse (who are not working in singapore) along not good ?
This is published in Zaobao on 31st March 2012. Perhaps one of the bros can help translate? Tks.
一个外国人在新加坡看病的经历
（2012-03-31）
陈晓燕
生病这件事，是我在异国他乡最最害怕的。但偏偏在日前一晚上将近半夜时，突然浑身冒冷汗、恶心，在洗手间吐得一塌糊涂，吃了藿香正气丸，不顶用；只好把睡梦中的女儿叫醒，去医院了。
一路上很忐忑，担心我是外国人，看个病不知道会不会很贵。以前在中国国内偶尔看过发烧的急诊，价格也不菲啊。
到达医院急诊中心，舒了一口气：明亮的救护通道，时不时有救护车出入，只是闪着灯却不呼啸。安静的挂号前台，护士轻声的问候具体状况，然后 让我在旁边的椅子上坐下。大概2分钟左右，护士就把我带到一名医生那里，因为他不会说华语，女儿和略懂华语的护士一直在旁边做翻译。经过简单的问询之后， 医生根据我的症状（恶心、呕吐、头晕、头痛、呼吸困难），担心我的心脏有什么问题，马上让护士带我到隔壁做心电图。其实我很害怕，每次去医院做任何的检查 我都害怕，再加上语言不通，我更是怕上加怕。所幸的事，医生护士非常和蔼，即使双方沟通不畅（女儿有很多疾病的专业术语并不完全懂得翻译），但是他们的态 度可以让我渐渐的平静下来。
在门诊后，被告知会有一名专科医生会对我的病情做进一步的诊断，然后我被护士用移动病床推进另外一个病房。这时，我忍不住悄悄跟女儿说：为什么他们不叫我们交钱的？如果看完病发现我不够钱怎么办？在国内看病，不都是要先交钱的吗？没钱？免谈！
10分钟过后，一名医生来到，非常详细的询问我的病情，帮我抽血化 验，我在中国曾经有连轧针多次的可怕经验，因此吓得哭了。在医生温柔说服和保证下，终于不痛地抽完血了。接着护士按照她的指示帮我量血压、打止吐针、验 尿、照X光、吃药等等，全部是护士推着我或扶着我在进行，女儿只是负责翻译，他们非常的尽心尽力、手脚非常轻柔，每帮我做完一个项目比如喂我吃药，都会对 我说句：thank you。替我服务，却还一直谢谢我，我真感激涕零了。
从头至尾，没有一个人来让我交费，只是询问病情和吃药打针后的反应——我想，这才是真正的人文关怀吧？这才是真正的救死扶伤吧？
接着医生来带我女儿去看我的检查清单和照片，详细向她解释每项内容，估计是食物引起轻微中毒感染之类的，我可以选择继续在病房休息或者回家。我选择回家。
紧张的时刻来到了，经过那么多的检查、诊断、治疗，到底会花费多少钱呀？我一个外国人，应该是按市场价格算吧。即使如此，我觉得这医护费是 值得花的。非常出乎意料的是：账单是新币299元（约合人民币1500元），实际付账95元（约合人民币500元）。也即是说，新加坡政府替我付了 65％！记得 2005年的时候，我在中国曾因不明原因发烧住院治疗近8天，花费7000元，结果社保局以未查明病因为由，一分钱都没给我报销。我是年年月月都交医疗保 险的人，结果，就是不能报销。
我不知道新加坡政府为什么会替我付这些医疗费，也不知道新加坡人如果知道了会不会群起而攻之，但是，这件事情，让我体会到什么才真正是“生命第一”！这家让我倍感舒适和亲切的医院名叫：陈笃生医院。
谢谢那些不知名而可亲可敬的医务工作者！希望这里所有人都健康平安！
Allthepies
27-07-12, 19:08
i see lots of PR in my neighbourhood having more than 2 kids, they love kids, this culd explain the dependency ratio. i see more and more locals marrying wives direct from china,if u can accept foreign wives, why cant u accept PRs?
Allthepies
27-07-12, 19:16
i see some bad PRs but I also see many good PRs. I see many good Singaporeans but I also see some yucky ones like those tat appear recently in the news.
@surfuz the gist of that article is a mother from China whom kena food poisoning got treated with care and concern from the staff and doc at TTSH and was pleasantly surprised that the 299 sgds bill came up to only 95sgd payable, when in her home country not a single cent was discounted for another similar emergency visit. thus she feel the spirit of true medical professionalism and sincerity here.
@surfuz the gist of that article is a mother from China whom kena food poisoning got treated with care and concern from the staff and doc at TTSH and was pleasantly surprised that the 299 sgds bill came up to only 95sgd payable, when in her home country not a single cent was discounted for another similar emergency visit. thus she feel the spirit of true medical professionalism and sincerity here.
Plus she's wondering why our garmen is so kind as to cover 65% of her medical bill when she's just a foreign tourist.
Additionally, she wonders if sgeans who knew of this subsidy made to tourists paid out of taxpayer monies will be fuming mad.
If I'm a Sg patient who's having difficulty getting govt to subsidize my healthcare bills and Kenna rejected from using our own medisave monies to cover healthcare and medicine bills, I will be hopping mad!
I also wonder how the battery of tests end up with a total bill of less than 300 bucks. Ttsh so cheap meh? Every time I bring my kids to kk hospital for consultation at least a couple hundreds just to see "specialist" for 5-10 mins (seems like everything also under specialist at kkh). Can't even use medisave to pay for the consultation somemore. Beggars belief.
ikan bilis
27-07-12, 22:39
"医院急诊中心"....
is emergency department... at emergency department... regardless of race, nationality, income level all flat rate at 90+... i think....
i was at emergency department due to wrist facture, took 4-5 x-ray, 2 doctors managed to pull and joined back my bone,... some medicine, bandage... ended bill at 90+.... was quite surprise...
normal hospital stay will have foreigner, pr and citizen at different rate...
I been using my brain to think about how to make Singapore more independent of outside economy for >50 years and my conclusion is that Singapore really needs a population of at least 12m to have a big enough serviced based domestic economy to weather economic recession originating from outside of Singapore! :beats-me-man:
So regardless of whether working or not, aging or not, young or old, as long as they have more than enough money to retire and support themselves here, they are welcomed! Old ones are good because then our Surgeons will have more patients to see and operate on and they will become more experienced! I think the govt make 1 big mistake - that is to slow down population intake. They should speed population intake simultaneously with infrastructure expansion otherwise the added infrastructure becomes "white elephant" and is wasting tax-payers' money! :simmering:
At least i have an opinion. Use some brain. How could bringing an aged parent along good? Unless your only concern is will it increase my property value? Its some statistic shared with us -first time Singaporeans are given insight into our population breakdown and you have no views? Or everything is correct as long as its PAP? why does our govt suddenly share the stats? Obviously to seek our opinions right?
Do you have an opinion? What is your view on the article? Or no views? That is the problem with our education system. Your only concern in life is your property value and how to get your child into a school?
There is no "argument" - just discussion on the observation on the new statistics shared. 'If you have no opinion, u don't have to ask people why they have.
New revelation. The majority of PRs and new citizens are "dependents". Only 48% of PR and 38% of new citizens are productive and working. Which means 52% of PR and 62% of new citizens are dependents. Which means every working PR brings more ah ma and ah gong and father and mother and spouse to become PR and add to the dependency ratio. Faint.
When I was staying in my HDB, feel like in Shenzhen when I go down to playground on Sunday... in the life, can meet people from Taiwan, Philippines, Indonesia also. Very cosmopolitan...
Tks carbuncle and Vincegoh. Should have written clearer: translate for the benefit of those who can't read Chinese :)
Chances are high she is a study mum. Is it like a long term tourist?
most likely on long term visit pass ba
I believe we should treat foreigners during emergencies.
BUT BUT BUT ! They should pay the non subsidised rate.
This is to be fair to citizens, old folks, needy families!
Do you know that if you are overseas and meet with an emergencies, it is not a given that the doctors/hospitals there will take u in, coz they cant verify if you are covered.
DKSG
Allthepies
28-07-12, 10:26
I believe we should treat foreigners during emergencies.
BUT BUT BUT ! They should pay the non subsidised rate.
This is to be fair to citizens, old folks, needy families!
Do you know that if you are overseas and meet with an emergencies, it is not a given that the doctors/hospitals there will take u in, coz they cant verify if you are covered.
DKSG
Wow, in this aspect we r first world, treating all human life as precious and equal. Ha so which countries are u referring to? If US or european countries, then these countries are very hypocricitical as they say they advocate human rights but not actually practicing.
ikan bilis
28-07-12, 14:16
I do not have any problem with subsidized rate for foreigner or pr, at hospital’s emergency section
- emergency sections only do things to keep you “alive”… bills are typically smaller… (when you get pushed out of emergency section, then you need to decide want to pay for high medical bill or rather go die)
- foreigners are visitors or guests to the country, and guests should be treated well (charge them $$ full bill for medical operations like kidney transplant but should not squeeze them $$ for any injury or accident cases). Even during disaster in neighbouring countries like tsunami, help teams are sent to them.
- Hospital emergency section should be saving lives first, than checking $$ first…
- who knows... may be more $$ were spent on previous YOG or world bank events, comparing to hospital's emergency section...
:rolleyes:
ikan bilis
28-07-12, 14:16
... repeated post....
phantom_opera
28-07-12, 15:32
Mr Lim said: "One thing for sure, expatriates' pay packages are now a lot less than they were in the past. So a lot of them are now looking for rentals below S$3,000."
But this threshold will remain for HDB rentals, PropNex CEO Mohamed Ismail said. "The minute it goes beyond S$3,000, people have got alternatives, which is the private property, that comes with facilities, gym, swimming pool. Why do I pay S$3,500 for a HDB? Makes no sense," he said.
resistance for HDB rental at 3,000
wah last time i go army damm siong kena charge up all the hill..botak hill pengang hill...i earn my PINK ic with sweat and blood...nowadays so easy to get pink ic...:(
wah last time i go army damm siong kena charge up all the hill..botak hill pengang hill...i earn my PINK ic with sweat and blood...nowadays so easy to get pink ic...:(
You get $3,000 NSman relief lor... wonder if Pengang hill still around or flatten liao...
We were even running up and down the hill with people in the stretcher. :eek:
wah last time i go army damm siong kena charge up all the hill..botak hill pengang hill...i earn my PINK ic with sweat and blood...nowadays so easy to get pink ic...:(
Mr Lim said: "One thing for sure, expatriates' pay packages are now a lot less than they were in the past. So a lot of them are now looking for rentals below S$3,000."
But this threshold will remain for HDB rentals, PropNex CEO Mohamed Ismail said. "The minute it goes beyond S$3,000, people have got alternatives, which is the private property, that comes with facilities, gym, swimming pool. Why do I pay S$3,500 for a HDB? Makes no sense," he said.
resistance for HDB rental at 3,000
just like resistance for sti index....:cool:
We were even running up and down the hill with people in the stretcher. :eek:
u medic ah...:D
Mr Lim said: "One thing for sure, expatriates' pay packages are now a lot less than they were in the past. So a lot of them are now looking for rentals below S$3,000."
But this threshold will remain for HDB rentals, PropNex CEO Mohamed Ismail said. "The minute it goes beyond S$3,000, people have got alternatives, which is the private property, that comes with facilities, gym, swimming pool. Why do I pay S$3,500 for a HDB? Makes no sense," he said.
resistance for HDB rental at 3,000I agree only half with him... a family of 5 or 6 cannot rent a 2 room condo for $3k (3 room condo @ that price can only be found in ulu places). That big family will likely still go for an EA or 5 room HDB for $3k... :rolleyes:
I been using my brain to think about how to make Singapore more independent of outside economy for >50 years and my conclusion is that Singapore really needs a population of at least 12m to have a big enough serviced based domestic economy to weather economic recession originating from outside of Singapore! :beats-me-man:
So regardless of whether working or not, aging or not, young or old, as long as they have more than enough money to retire and support themselves here, they are welcomed! Old ones are good because then our Surgeons will have more patients to see and operate on and they will become more experienced! I think the govt make 1 big mistake - that is to slow down population intake. They should speed population intake simultaneously with infrastructure expansion otherwise the added infrastructure becomes "white elephant" and is wasting tax-payers' money! :simmering:
I tends to agree with you and seen several such views in other forums. Singapore needs people and that we are too small and vulnerable as compared to our neighbours. If Singapore is to prosper and survive over the long term we need to expand our population, 7m, 10m, 12m pick your number. With expanded infrastructure we can easily support it.
I tends to agree with you and seen several such views in other forums. Singapore needs people and that we are too small and vulnerable as compared to our neighbours. If Singapore is to prosper and survive over the long term we need to expand our population, 7m, 10m, 12m pick your number. With expanded infrastructure we can easily support it.On that regard, our lovely authorities are usually 2 steps behind.
MRT has to break down twice before they acknowledge that population is growing too quickly.
Resale HDB flat prices have to soar before they know there are insufficient BTO to meet demand and that sets them back by 4 years (construction period).
CTE has to jam for 10 years before they plan to build a parallel expressway to cater to demand and all the while, they naively believed that ERP can solve the problem? Merely pushing the vehicles to the smaller roads and jamming those roads. Need to install ERP on small roads too?
Need to lose a GRC before they acknowledged the need to pay more attention to the voices of the people? :scared-4:
wah last time i go army damm siong kena charge up all the hill..botak hill pengang hill...i earn my PINK ic with sweat and blood...nowadays so easy to get pink ic...:(
come to think of it TODAY singapore DONT need any army because the population consists of people from ALL OVER the world so if any country attack singapore they will be attacking their OWN people....:doh::doh::doh:
Well said...:o and it will also be too late when they realize that supply is overwhelm...:doh:
On that regard, our lovely authorities are usually 2 steps behind.
MRT has to break down twice before they acknowledge that population is growing too quickly.
Resale HDB flat prices have to soar before they know there are insufficient BTO to meet demand and that sets them back by 4 years (construction period).
CTE has to jam for 10 years before they plan to build a parallel expressway to cater to demand and all the while, they naively believed that ERP can solve the problem? Merely pushing the vehicles to the smaller roads and jamming those roads. Need to install ERP on small roads too?
Need to lose a GRC before they acknowledged the need to pay more attention to the voices of the people? :scared-4:
I agree only half with him... a family of 5 or 6 cannot rent a 2 room condo for $3k (3 room condo @ that price can only be found in ulu places). That big family will likely still go for an EA or 5 room HDB for $3k... :rolleyes:
The new norm is to buy up terrace and covert to dorm. Typical ones are jurong west and Villa Verde where the asking price is still low. As an investment and subsequently as a cash cow.
I heard of one unit with at least 16 occupants in there. But there is no governing this.
NorthernStar
29-07-12, 07:49
Of course there is a difference betwene bringing kids and bringing in parents. Remember the main reason for the influx of immigrants is to solve our aging population and spur the economy. Bringing kids at least help solve the problem. Bringing middle age spouse or parents don't.
I have a feeling the same gang will come in with their flame war and how influx of foreigners should increase because property will huat.
If I m not wrong, aged parents of PRs or new citizens can only get the long term social visit pass. And I heard recently, gov not giving the long term now. Only issue the short term only
If I m not wrong, aged parents of PRs or new citizens can only get the long term social visit pass. And I heard recently, gov not giving the long term now. Only issue the short term only
yup they are making it more difficut to get pr citizenship..etc etc...wonder y
The new norm is to buy up terrace and covert to dorm. Typical ones are jurong west and Villa Verde where the asking price is still low. As an investment and subsequently as a cash cow.
I heard of one unit with at least 16 occupants in there. But there is no governing this.
BLOW the whistle :scared-4:
if both PR couple are working, who to look after kids? so bringing in the MIL at least makes sense. one old for two young... worth it.
16 x say $300 per bed space. thats 4.8k nia. hardly worth the effort.
On that regard, our lovely authorities are usually 2 steps behind.
MRT has to break down twice before they acknowledge that population is growing too quickly.
Resale HDB flat prices have to soar before they know there are insufficient BTO to meet demand and that sets them back by 4 years (construction period).
CTE has to jam for 10 years before they plan to build a parallel expressway to cater to demand and all the while, they naively believed that ERP can solve the problem? Merely pushing the vehicles to the smaller roads and jamming those roads. Need to install ERP on small roads too?
Need to lose a GRC before they acknowledged the need to pay more attention to the voices of the people? :scared-4:
I am sure now they wake up the idea Liao.... They will build all infrastructure fast fast then when all fully build by 2017 then boom open tap again.... Sure will go towards10m I am very sure.....
CLOSE BUT NOT MO.
u medic ah...:D
Wow! Fortunately, I am not staying there.
The new norm is to buy up terrace and covert to dorm. Typical ones are jurong west and Villa Verde where the asking price is still low. As an investment and subsequently as a cash cow.
I heard of one unit with at least 16 occupants in there. But there is no governing this.
phantom_opera
29-07-12, 14:52
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-aTaS3GAY7vE/TqJB2usaAAI/AAAAAAAAAL8/5V1MPOb8L0I/s640/Singapore+PR+Rejected+Approved+2004+-+2010.png
phantom_opera
29-07-12, 14:56
Number of Singapore EP applications up in 2011
Although Singapore Employment Pass criteria became stricter in 2011 compared to 2010, number of Singapore EP applications between H2 (i.e. July to December) 2010 and H2 2011 has increased by 22.5% according to the Singapore company registration specialists, Rikvin:
"Inclusive of renewals, Singapore EP application numbers has increased by 25.7% year-on-year (y-o-y) between 2010 and 2011. Over the same period, the number of fresh Singapore EP applications alone has increased by 13.7%. On the other hand, the number of Singapore EP applications increased by only 5.2% between January and June 2010 (H1 2010) and H1 2011."
Source : Singapore Work Visa Applications Have Increased Y-O-Y Between 2010 and 2011: Rikvin
How? The reason is largely external according to Rikvin’s Head of Operations, Mr. Satish Bakhda. Many highly qualified professionals with salaries well above the minimum salary requirements for work visas are increasingly applying jobs in Singapore due to the difficult employment environment in their countries in Europe and USA.
Further analysis shows that the higher requirements mandated by the Ministry of Manpower (MOM) are far from draconian and are part of a larger national strategy to 1) raise the quality of foreign manpower inflows and Singapore’s human capital as a whole and 2) implement fairer and more inclusive employment practices for Singapore workers.
Nevertheless, Singapore remains as one of the most open and attractive economies in the world to talented professionals. The World Economic Forum (WEF) has most recently ranked Singapore’s employment framework as one of the most flexible worldwide and its labor-employee relations as well as employment opportunities offerings as the second best worldwide
Source : Singapore Work Visa Applications Have Increased Y-O-Y Between 2010 and 2011: Rikvin
Singapore Employment Pass is a work visa issued to white collar foreign employees which enables them to work in Singapore. Unlike S-Pass, Employment Pass is not subject to any quota system which limits the number of Employment Passes that can be employed in a company. There were around 142,000 Employment Pass holders as of December 2010. These foreign professionals are directly competing for the jobs with locals and many Singaporeans openly express their intake should be slowed.
Number of Singapore EP applications up in 2011
Although Singapore Employment Pass criteria became stricter in 2011 compared to 2010, number of Singapore EP applications between H2 (i.e. July to December) 2010 and H2 2011 has increased by 22.5% according to the Singapore company registration specialists, Rikvin:
"Inclusive of renewals, Singapore EP application numbers has increased by 25.7% year-on-year (y-o-y) between 2010 and 2011. Over the same period, the number of fresh Singapore EP applications alone has increased by 13.7%. On the other hand, the number of Singapore EP applications increased by only 5.2% between January and June 2010 (H1 2010) and H1 2011."
Source : Singapore Work Visa Applications Have Increased Y-O-Y Between 2010 and 2011: Rikvin
How? The reason is largely external according to Rikvin’s Head of Operations, Mr. Satish Bakhda. Many highly qualified professionals with salaries well above the minimum salary requirements for work visas are increasingly applying jobs in Singapore due to the difficult employment environment in their countries in Europe and USA.
Further analysis shows that the higher requirements mandated by the Ministry of Manpower (MOM) are far from draconian and are part of a larger national strategy to 1) raise the quality of foreign manpower inflows and Singapore’s human capital as a whole and 2) implement fairer and more inclusive employment practices for Singapore workers.
Nevertheless, Singapore remains as one of the most open and attractive economies in the world to talented professionals. The World Economic Forum (WEF) has most recently ranked Singapore’s employment framework as one of the most flexible worldwide and its labor-employee relations as well as employment opportunities offerings as the second best worldwide
Source : Singapore Work Visa Applications Have Increased Y-O-Y Between 2010 and 2011: Rikvin
Singapore Employment Pass is a work visa issued to white collar foreign employees which enables them to work in Singapore. Unlike S-Pass, Employment Pass is not subject to any quota system which limits the number of Employment Passes that can be employed in a company. There were around 142,000 Employment Pass holders as of December 2010. These foreign professionals are directly competing for the jobs with locals and many Singaporeans openly express their intake should be slowed.
The problem is, we keep using this criteria that criteria, but do we really know what is enough for this country ?
There are more millionnaires around the world than than the number of naive Singaporeans, if we dont know when is enough, we will all end up in JB and rich foreigners come and take over the whole country.
This is the same as any companies, how do companies know when is ENOUGH and stop hiring ? There are certainly more qualified people out there in the market compared to their current workers right ? So do they take in all these people and then send the incumbants to Tibet for posting ?
We should reach a stage whereby we DO NOT NEED ANYMORE new foreigners ANYMORE. For us to take one more in, one from the current pool has to go OUT.
DKSG
Allthepies
29-07-12, 16:43
The problem is, we keep using this criteria that criteria, but do we really know what is enough for this country ?
There are more millionnaires around the world than than the number of naive Singaporeans, if we dont know when is enough, we will all end up in JB and rich foreigners come and take over the whole country.
This is the same as any companies, how do companies know when is ENOUGH and stop hiring ? There are certainly more qualified people out there in the market compared to their current workers right ? So do they take in all these people and then send the incumbants to Tibet for posting ?
We should reach a stage whereby we DO NOT NEED ANYMORE new foreigners ANYMORE. For us to take one more in, one from the current pool has to go OUT.
DKSG
Don't worry lah, millionaire won't fight with the local rank and file. They are more likely to create jobs. We need a critical pool of talents to accomples anything. Anyway the huge civil and defense sector is a big job arena providing a hugh safety net for locals, zero competition, no foreigners allowed. And don't worry, the HDB also provides a very good safety net for locals. The design and looks of the new HDB can put many condos to shame.
But everything may come to pass if we feel we don't need any new or good foreigners. The top 10% of Chinese National are easily more capable than our top 10 percentile of local workforce.
Don't worry lah, millionaire won't fight with the local rank and file. They are more likely to create jobs. We need a critical pool of talents to accomples anything. Anyway the huge civil and defense sector is a big job arena providing a hugh safety net for locals, zero competition, no foreigners allowed. And don't worry, the HDB also provides a very good safety net for locals. The design and looks of the new HDB can put many condos to shame.
But everything may come to pass if we feel we don't need any new or good foreigners. The top 10% of Chinese National are easily more capable than our top 10 percentile of local workforce.
problem is we are unable to attract the top 10% of chinese nationals. we are most likely considered 2nd tier city for most of these chinese elites. juz like H Shares vs S chips. :scared-2:
Allthepies
30-07-12, 12:32
problem is we are unable to attract the top 10% of chinese nationals. we are most likely considered 2nd tier city for most of these chinese elites. juz like H Shares vs S chips. :scared-2:
Hence the real efforts now is to target the really top talents to come here and not do the opposite to chase them away.
To really attract them, our society and environment must be conducive and welcoming...... really for real talents their options are unlimited, they have many cities to choose, Singapore is just 1 of the many options...
Hence the real efforts now is to target the really top talents to come here and not do the opposite to chase them away.
To really attract them, our society and environment must be conducive and welcoming...... really for real talents their options are unlimited, they have many cities to choose, Singapore is just 1 of the many options...
wrong. Singapore is the chapest option with the most submissive workforce. Ask them why thry don't choose HK n they eill haw and hah.. You think the quality of life is better in thailsnd or china or malaysia?
I ask a first vp once why sg ehy not malsysis. Answer from him is once he was in malaydis, he took off the iron grill n wad rob witjin the ssme dsy in his estste as he felt like living in s chivken voop. I sdk about hk, he ssy he never eork hsrder in his life in hk n the sir wuslity not goid for his children. In sg they have internstional indian school do he feel safe n the eorkforce are dicipline to not wuestion his indtruction unlike hk
Jonathan0503
30-07-12, 18:42
wrong. Singapore is the chapest option with the most submissive workforce. Ask them why thry don't choose HK n they eill haw and hah.. You think the quality of life is better in thailsnd or china or malaysia?
I ask a first vp once why sg ehy not malsysis. Answer from him is once he was in malaydis, he took off the iron grill n wad rob witjin the ssme dsy in his estste as he felt like living in s chivken voop. I sdk about hk, he ssy he never eork hsrder in his life in hk n the sir wuslity not goid for his children. In sg they have internstional indian school do he feel safe n the eorkforce are dicipline to not wuestion his indtruction unlike hk
Sorry, quite difficult to read with all the wrong spelling...
Don't worry lah, millionaire won't fight with the local rank and file. They are more likely to create jobs. We need a critical pool of talents to accomples anything. Anyway the huge civil and defense sector is a big job arena providing a hugh safety net for locals, zero competition, no foreigners allowed. And don't worry, the HDB also provides a very good safety net for locals. The design and looks of the new HDB can put many condos to shame.
But everything may come to pass if we feel we don't need any new or good foreigners. The top 10% of Chinese National are easily more capable than our top 10 percentile of local workforce.
Heng can still sign on SAF...
Bubble? What bubble? No bubble allowed in SG. I mean bubble gum. Don't worry about it, let Govt do the worrying.
buttercarp
30-07-12, 22:45
Bubble? What bubble? No bubble allowed in SG. I mean bubble gum. Don't worry about it, let Govt do the worrying.
Ya lor ..... no property bubble.... only got bubble tea.
I like the green tea one without sugar.
Ya lor ..... no property bubble.... only got bubble tea.
I like the green tea one without sugar.
Since the bubble tea craze and fall in the early 2000, bubble tea has come back bigger, better, stronger. Will there be another bubble tea collapse? Your guess is as good as mine.
Lol... property bubble become bubble tea... like koi more than gong cha or each a cup... :cheers3:
when in 2005 till now , some have insisted that the bubble is growing. In 2010 / 2011 the authority believe the bubble is growing and hence the suite of CM.
the question then is there a right size of bubble?
phantom_opera
31-07-12, 08:57
With medIan family income at 14k and wages up strongly, all u get is rich becomes richer, middle class bcome poorer due to inflation, not bubble yet till punggol at 1400psf
With medIan family income at 14k and wages up strongly, all u get is rich becomes richer, middle class bcome poorer due to inflation, not bubble yet till punggol at 1400psf
Hi.. May I know where do you get the statistical data on family median income?
My family household income stays at 7k+. We are in our 30s.
phantom_opera
31-07-12, 09:36
Hi.. May I know where do you get the statistical data on family median income?
My family household income stays at 7k+. We are in our 30s.
Check this out yowe
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?p=292373
Check this out yowe
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?p=292373
Hi. Thanks for the re-direct link.
Hi.. May I know where do you get the statistical data on family median income?
My family household income stays at 7k+. We are in our 30s.
Are you sure your household income is at 7k+ ?
I thought it should be much more than that ?
DKSG
Are you sure your household income is at 7k+ ?
I thought it should be much more than that ?
DKSG
Hi.. Thanks for reminding.
The actual household income (Myself and my wife) = 7k+ SGD.
The disposal income from parents and in-laws rental = 5k+ SGD.
Potential additional income from Taxi-driving = 1k SGD.
Thus, total possible income per month would amount to 13k-14k+ SGD per month.
phantom_opera
31-07-12, 14:01
Hi.. Thanks for reminding.
The actual household income (Myself and my wife) = 7k+ SGD.
The disposal income from parents and in-laws rental = 5k+ SGD.
Potential additional income from Taxi-driving = 1k SGD.
Thus, total possible income per month would amount to 13k-14k+ SGD per month.
you finally hit 14k median family income, now you are qualified to stay in condo, and join the debt camp:
The US government borrows $4.8 billion in new debt each work day, and $200 million every working hour.
you finally hit 14k median family income, now you are qualified to stay in condo, and join the debt camp:
The US government borrows $4.8 billion in new debt each work day, and $200 million every working hour.
Pardon me for my ignorance; what do you mean then?
Hi.. Thanks for reminding.
The actual household income (Myself and my wife) = 7k+ SGD.
The disposal income from parents and in-laws rental = 5k+ SGD.
Potential additional income from Taxi-driving = 1k SGD.
Thus, total possible income per month would amount to 13k-14k+ SGD per month.
...since your PIL and Parents own their own property...it should be 14K/3 which is less than 5K....
Well said...:o and it will also be too late when they realize that supply is overwhelm...:doh:
Well then it depends on who's handling the portfolio. I think KBW have proven himself handling both the medical portfolio and now the housing hot potato. At least he knows what is happening and is not in any self denial....
phantom_opera
31-07-12, 23:00
wonder why so many Indians want to get SPR here:
NEW DELHI (AFP) - A massive power failure hit India for the second day running as three regional power grids collapsed on Tuesday, blacking out more than half the country in a crisis affecting over 600 million people.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/2012/7/1a07df35-0cc1-4e01-9539-e873d8deec95MediumRes.JPG
phantom_opera
01-08-12, 10:01
HDB median sublet rent
2008 Q4 2012 Q2
TPY $2200 $2700 +22.7%
Tampines $2000 $2540 +27% (6% annual growth)
# of registered subletting with HDB increased from about 4000 to about 7000 in the period
Bear in mind in between there is a deflation scare in end 2008/Q1 2009, otherwise the annual growth would have been 8-10%, if this trend continues, inflation will not come down easily
phantom_opera
01-08-12, 11:04
Bedok (Updated: $2,500 for 5r median sublet for Q2 2012)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VsgBIrMcibc/TvW0wg66JoI/AAAAAAAAAOE/jbIq1jGPAug/s640/Bedok+HDB+For+Rent+Price+Trends.png
Bukit Merah (Updated: $3,200 5r median sublet for Q2 2012)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gvmT5vn2fdU/Tvh5OOZqgAI/AAAAAAAAAOo/e3UTgTNCeW8/s640/Bukit+Merah+HDB+For+Rent+Price+Trends.png
phantom_opera
01-08-12, 14:53
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o4bnxWi_Ekc/UBVdv4epMYI/AAAAAAAAAeY/r9IS4imRpcA/s640/Median+HDB+rental+for+3+and+4+room+flats+2012.png
ikan bilis
01-08-12, 19:15
very scary and still cheong-ing up... if i bet on wrong side, sold all my properties + hdb, and rented a place now... i would had pee in my pants.... :scared-4: :scared-3:
Bedok (Updated: $2,500 for 5r median sublet for Q2 2012)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-VsgBIrMcibc/TvW0wg66JoI/AAAAAAAAAOE/jbIq1jGPAug/s640/Bedok+HDB+For+Rent+Price+Trends.png
Bukit Merah (Updated: $3,200 5r median sublet for Q2 2012)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gvmT5vn2fdU/Tvh5OOZqgAI/AAAAAAAAAOo/e3UTgTNCeW8/s640/Bukit+Merah+HDB+For+Rent+Price+Trends.png
very scary and still cheong-ing up... if i bet on wrong side, sold all my properties + hdb, and rented a place now... i would had pee in my pants.... :scared-4: :scared-3:
Ya man.... then the person must come here to start a new thread to try and talk down the market... but too bad.....Ben and Mario printing money lol
3RM @ 1.8k is the exact reason why it supports 1BR condo @ 2.3k these days
phantom_opera
02-08-12, 16:22
3RM @ 1.8k is the exact reason why it supports 1BR condo @ 2.3k these days
Bedok near MRT lao kok kok (very old) without privacy 3r HDB facing the temp bus station is asking 2.5k anytime
Ya man.... then the person must come here to start a new thread to try and talk down the market... but too bad.....Ben and Mario printing money lol
ben decided not to print.I guess panodol does not work anymore
That's a very detailed and telling chart. Is it from hdb's website?
These days I see a lot of ang moh renting HDB but China PRCs renting condos..
'coz my neighbourhood surrounded by HDBs.. I see them walk towards HDB in their casuals.. so most likely is stay there one
These days I see a lot of ang moh renting HDB but China PRCs renting condos..
'coz my neighbourhood surrounded by HDBs.. I see them walk towards HDB in their casuals.. so most likely is stay there one
maybe visit girlfriends or stay with girlfriends family for free...:D
phantom_opera
13-09-12, 11:46
25% jump of SG population after 2005
http://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:SGP&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false&icfg&iconSize=0.5
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-p75SWnJYgaM/UE3wz8jmMxI/AAAAAAAAAiU/Wado4ZS210U/s400/Singapore+PR+Approvals+between+2001+-+2011.png
Average SPRs intake = 46351 per year
In 11y, SPRs taken = 509k
maybe visit girlfriends or stay with girlfriends family for free...:D
most are converted to local + package. So no incentive to max out the company subsidies as it is coming from their own pockets.
we don't need figures to tell us actually. just need to really open our eyes.
colleagues, bosses, friends, friends spouses, family's spouses.... all have SPR. at least personally speaking.
phantom_opera
03-11-12, 21:55
http://singaporearmchaircritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/workforcepass_new1.jpg
http://singaporearmchaircritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/pop.png
Now I know whats driving our property prices up!
Its those EP holders who earns big monies.
Actually I know also la! See my office know liao.
So many expats come in recent years.
DKSG
...have a former colleague who got his PHD in US, his professor advised him to go back to far east for better employment prospect....within US, they have in-sate and out-state priorities in employment....so guess many there they have difficulties in getting a job...so....
the briitish talent will be making to our shores soon. Guess another thusand or so will be needing a place.
the briitish talent will be making to our shores soon. Guess another thusand or so will be needing a place.
why the british is coming too? :scared-5:
the briitish talent will be making to our shores soon. Guess another thusand or so will be needing a place.
you referring to those who found out that their access card couldn't work in the morning when they showed up at work.
phantom_opera
08-01-13, 13:12
http://yawningbread.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/pic_201202_17.gif
http://yawningbread.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/pic_201202_17.gif
got figures of 2012? if housing supply doesn't keep up, prices are going to go in one direction -up!
phantom_opera
08-01-13, 13:32
got figures of 2012? if housing supply doesn't keep up, prices are going to go in one direction -up!
http://singaporearmchaircritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/workforcepass_new1.jpg
http://singaporearmchaircritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/workforcepass_new1.jpg
dec-07 to dec-08 up by 156.900
dec-08 to dec-09 down little bit.
yet from dec-07 to dec-08, property market in singapore drop a lot, ie price drop, rental also drop.
so where does the additional 156.900 stays that cause rental to drop?
and if we exclude work permit, where does the additional 29,800 S-Pass and 34,200 Employment Pass holders stay?
how come price and rental can drop so much despite additional higher income foreigners?
so how come population up, yet property price and rental drop?
In an economic downturn, would population increase help to buffer property price and rental fall?
dec-07 to dec-08 up by 156.900
dec-08 to dec-09 down little bit.
yet from dec-07 to dec-08, property market in singapore drop a lot, ie price drop, rental also drop.
so where does the additional 156.900 stays that cause rental to drop?
and if we exclude work permit, where does the additional 29,800 S-Pass and 34,200 Employment Pass holders stay?
how come price and rental can drop so much despite additional higher income foreigners?
so how come population up, yet property price and rental drop?
In an economic downturn, would population increase help to buffer property price and rental fall?
eh, u probably forgot about the global subprime banking shock in late 2008 (citibank shares were going for USD1!!!). using the above info 'as-is', that's probably good reason why y-o-y dip in 2007/2008 was drastic.
eh, u probably forgot about the global subprime banking shock in late 2008 (citibank shares were going for USD1!!!). using the above info 'as-is', that's probably good reason why y-o-y dip in 2007/2008 was drastic.
so my question is:
does an increasing population helps to prevent/buffer a drop in property price, rental fall during an economic downturn?
and with the increase in number of foreigners from dec-07 to dec-08, they need a place to stay too, so how can rental can drop during crisis time?
from ura website, vacancy rate also increase in 2008q4.
so they stay in HDB or more people share an apartment?
so my question is:
does an increasing population helps to prevent/buffer a drop in property price, rental fall during an economic downturn?
and with the increase in number of foreigners from dec-07 to dec-08, they need a place to stay too, so how can rental can drop during crisis time?
from ura website, vacancy rate also increase in 2008q4.
so they stay in HDB or more people share an apartment?
let's go back to basics - demand outstrip supply, prices go up. supply outstrips demand, prices go south.
coming back to your question in 2007/2008, perhaps owners are willing to take a hit on rental margins so as to secure certainty on rent. we do not know the kind of foreigners that came in - for which industry, their remuneration packages, etc etc.
too many factors in play to make a meaningful analysis. as what you have suggested from URA's data, they could be squeezing in too. fear ruled the day back in dec08, and we can't simply dismiss human socio/psychological factors.
I would argue... Its the minority that actually move the market in property.
I would argue... Its the minority that actually move the market in property.
..would be interesting if someone can provide figures for multi-properties owner.....
phantom_opera
08-01-13, 21:37
Actually HDB rental is not that much affected by Lehman crisis, see chart below... as they are well supproted by DP, EP holders
I would argue CCR Rental is the worst hit since Lehman crisis affect housing allowance of those renting CCR, followed by RCR then OCR then HDB
Does it mean majority of our new immigrants are not those who can afford renting/buying CCR, at least for now
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eSRKYKy-OOg/TSl-r0BVVCI/AAAAAAAAAEA/dz5ATtXOTN0/s400/HDB+rent+prices+Singapore.png
So if population increase wasn't a determinant factor in price and rental hike in the past. Can it still be a determinant factor in the future in the face of ample supply? I don't think so.
It was never about the quantity of people, its the quality.
phantom_opera
09-01-13, 06:24
So if population increase wasn't a determinant factor in price and rental hike in the past. Can it still be a determinant factor in the future in the face of ample supply? I don't think so.
It was never about the quantity of people, its the quality.
IT is a key factor for HDB market ... OCR rental is then indirectly supported ..
IT is a key factor for HDB market ... OCR rental is then indirectly supported ..
I tend to agree that now that hr is offshore and to a certain. Degree outsource, when they see the expat package, they see a kiings ransom. So now mostly moderated like mr B % into local plus package.
:doh: therefore it don't make sense to be PR or Singaporean as the package will be moderated further.
Actually HDB rental is not that much affected by Lehman crisis, see chart below... as they are well supproted by DP, EP holders
I would argue CCR Rental is the worst hit since Lehman crisis affect housing allowance of those renting CCR, followed by RCR then OCR then HDB
Does it mean majority of our new immigrants are not those who can afford renting/buying CCR, at least for now
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_eSRKYKy-OOg/TSl-r0BVVCI/AAAAAAAAAEA/dz5ATtXOTN0/s400/HDB+rent+prices+Singapore.png
i think it's a known fact that gone are the heydays when expats command a premium when relocating to singapore. now that jobs are scarce in the west, more are happy to have a job in local package terms.
http://singaporearmchaircritic.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/workforcepass_new1.jpg
I must have been dreaming. Totally didnt realise the huge percentage of wp vs white collars is that stark a difference.
I must have been dreaming. Totally didnt realise the huge percentage of wp vs white collars is that stark a difference.
Wp holders are here during the construction period. Once the constructions are done, their number will be disminish. Isn't it ironic that the housing demand actually increase the number of population (ie. Construction workers).
Wp holders are here during the construction period. Once the constructions are done, their number will be disminish. Isn't it ironic that the housing demand actually increase the number of population (ie. Construction workers).
ya, but all these numbers (construction workers) dun hit the HDB rental mkt coz they mostly stay in dorms. so we do not have the full picture of how many WP holders require HDB rental.
i am assuming the condo rental come from the higher level ones. may be wrong since they can squeeze more headcount into condo.
felicia_sg
10-01-13, 12:09
Quality of immigrants deteriorated by so much that they are competing for living space in OCR & HDB properties with general average income Singaporeans, causing their cost of living to increase by so much & overcrowding in HDB estates.
So if population increase wasn't a determinant factor in price and rental hike in the past. Can it still be a determinant factor in the future in the face of ample supply? I don't think so.
It was never about the quantity of people, its the quality.
so some of the key questions we can ask ourselves...
1) how long will this situation persists? if local dont stay CCR (to a large extent...), less expats, then who stay in CCR? a long drought ahead for CCR? how long can the existing owner hold? are the current jobs generated mostly outside CCR?
2) if more demand for HDB rental due to the category of FT coming in, can we afford to get rid of HDB for rental market? where are these ppl going to stay if all hdb not for rental? that would be another problem...
3) now with so many ECs and BTO, in 2015 onwards, we will have a lot of HDBs in the pipeline and some released into the markets, is this also in a way to generate more HDB for rental to cope with the growing trend of FT staying in HDB? did u see this? is it a by product or part of the objective?
above based on personal views...:o :2cents:
Quality of immigrants deteriorated by so much that they are competing for living space in OCR & HDB properties with general average income Singaporeans, causing their cost of living to increase by so much & overcrowding in HDB estates.
[
3) now with so many ECs and BTO, in 2015 onwards, we will have a lot of HDBs in the pipeline and some released into the markets, is this also in a way to generate more HDB for rental to cope with the growing trend of FT staying in HDB? did u see this? is it a by product or part of the objective?
above based on personal views...:o :2cents:[/quote]
This is the shock and awe strategy. When the market becomes flooded and interest rates rise, people will be calling to the govt for help. At that point, govt will open the FT floodgates again to mop up demand. Keep in mind by then, mrt lines and new international schools also open. People will then "appreciate" the far sighted plan of the miw.
This is the shock and awe strategy. When the market becomes flooded and interest rates rise, people will be calling to the govt for help. At that point, govt will open the FT floodgates again to mop up demand. Keep in mind by then, mrt lines and new international schools also open. People will then "appreciate" the far sighted plan of the miw.
i suspect this too. garmen say.. you all dun want, then i turn off the tap lor. show you who is the boss. next time you all will be begging for FTs.
Do u know how much it cost for a foreign student to study in a local government secondary school per month?
School fee $470
Full board accomodation $1000-1500
Transport + Pocket money $500
So 1 month expenses is around $2.000-2.500 dollar. Not including air fare + books + medical. Sg now only attracting high calibre migrants. We are the swiss of asia.
What happen to sg in 10 years time?
1. All cars will be luxury models
2. Sgd will be in par to usd and aud, or even euro
3. Old hdb will be demolished and replace with 60 years LH skyscappers.
4. Minimum salary will be 5.000 dollars
5. HDB rental fetch 5.000 dollars.
6. ERP operates throught out the island
7. People shop from home, because transport is a luxury
8. CCR? What ccr? No more ccr or ocr. All the same
9. I will be in my 50 and probably regret why I didn't but that condo at punggol
each segment has its turn. 500k, 1m has moved. there are ppl who cash out and upgrade to the 1.5m-2m range. i also think this is happening more now. if it continues, then the 2-2.5m will move. musical chairs.
phantom_opera
31-01-13, 16:43
The number of high-skilled foreigners on Employment Passes (EP) has fallen for the first time since 2003. There were 173,800 EP holders in December 2012, down from 175,400 a year before.
"This is likely in part due to the tighter EP framework from Jan 2012," Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin wrote in a post on the ministry's blog on Thursday. These stricter requirements included better educational qualifications and higher qualifying salaries.
Meanwhile, the number of S-Passes - meant for mid-skilled workers - went up to 142,400 from 113,900 previously.
=> long live HDB rental :p
what are those S-Pass, for eg?
The number of high-skilled foreigners on Employment Passes (EP) has fallen for the first time since 2003. There were 173,800 EP holders in December 2012, down from 175,400 a year before.
"This is likely in part due to the tighter EP framework from Jan 2012," Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin wrote in a post on the ministry's blog on Thursday. These stricter requirements included better educational qualifications and higher qualifying salaries.
Meanwhile, the number of S-Passes - meant for mid-skilled workers - went up to 142,400 from 113,900 previously.
=> long live HDB rental :p
Many people either dont understand or in denial that when population goes up, property prices will go up!
And even more with this new Population Paper. Coz we are getting the S-Pass people in. Not the constructions workers!
DKSG
Many people either dont understand or in denial that when population goes up, property prices will go up!
And even more with this new Population Paper. Coz we are getting the S-Pass people in. Not the constructions workers!
DKSG
can 2 doctor share 1 nurse?
can 2 engineer supervise 1 construction worker?
i have always thought society is like a pyramid, or diamond shape. perhaps i am wrong, now can be inverted pyramid. if dont import work permits, who will be at the bottom? citizens?
can 2 doctor share 1 nurse?
can 2 engineer supervise 1 construction worker?
i have always thought society is like a pyramid, or diamond shape. perhaps i am wrong, now can be inverted pyramid. if dont import work permits, who will be at the bottom? citizens?
2 doctors share a nurse sounds kinky
i seriously think we need construction workers, maids, CEO etc and not FRESH GRADS. We have surplus of FRESH GRADS in Singapore :D Best is import in 30 - 40 years old hunks to boost fertility and marriage rate :D
phantom_opera
25-02-13, 20:58
Minister in the Prime Minister’s Office, Grace Fu, told Parliament today (25 Feb) that 20,693 Singapore Citizenship applications were approved last year (2012).
From 2007 to 2010, Singapore's intake of new citizens ranged from over 17,334 to 20,513. 2011 saw 15,777 additions to the citizen population.
If Singapore wants to prevent a decline in its citizen population from 2025, it will need 20,000 to 25,000 new citizens each year.
phantom_opera
11-07-13, 09:15
almost 28k
almost 28k
how many are foreign spouses?
many more tenants for forummers here.
6.9mil is a certainty?
Yes, only question is how long to get there
New revelation. The majority of PRs and new citizens are "dependents". Only 48% of PR and 38% of new citizens are productive and working. Which means 52% of PR and 62% of new citizens are dependents. Which means every working PR brings more ah ma and ah gong and father and mother and spouse to become PR and add to the dependency ratio. Faint.
They are wife and kids lah.
6.9mil is a certainty?
More than certainty. The marriage rate is improving and I believe birth rate will also increase. Most likely to hit the figure between 2025-2030.
many more tenants for forummers here.
Confirm rentals will be supported in the coming years.
Once these new citizens settled down for a few years, most of them would want to own their properties as well, fuelling further demand.
By the Jurong at $1,650 psf will no longer be Wow! it will be quite the norm.
So, if you spot anything less than $1,650 psf between Jurong and D9, just buy!
DKSG
walkthetiger
12-07-13, 13:09
Confirm rentals will be supported in the coming years.
Once these new citizens settled down for a few years, most of them would want to own their properties as well, fuelling further demand.
By the Jurong at $1,650 psf will no longer be Wow! it will be quite the norm.
So, if you spot anything less than $1,650 psf between Jurong and D9, just buy!
DKSG
Just hope most of them can afford private housing....else it will be easy to tell coming fate of private housing market….
If these new citizens cannot afford private housing, then govt giving citizenship to the wrong group of people even though they tell us otherwise that they only want to attract Foreign Talent and try to retain only FT? :rolleyes:
FT don't earn much than how to be called FT? :p
Just hope most of them can afford private housing....else it will be easy to tell coming fate of private housing market….
Originally Posted by DKSG
Confirm rentals will be supported in the coming years.
Once these new citizens settled down for a few years, most of them would want to own their properties as well, fuelling further demand.
By the Jurong at $1,650 psf will no longer be Wow! it will be quite the norm.
So, if you spot anything less than $1,650 psf between Jurong and D9, just buy!
DKSG
walkthetiger
12-07-13, 13:26
If these new citizens cannot afford private housing, then govt giving citizenship to the wrong group of people even though they tell us otherwise that they only want to attract Foreign Talent and try to retain only FT? :rolleyes:
FT don't earn much than how to be called FT? :p
DKSG[/I]
The many upcoming EC projects and their plan to make re-sale public housing available, may compete with private market….Hope this does not happen….
Wp holders are here during the construction period. Once the constructions are done, their number will be disminish. Isn't it ironic that the housing demand actually increase the number of population (ie. Construction workers).
u trigger a qn in me.
say 5 yrs later, a big bulk of our current construction workers will no longer be required due to lesser constructions BUT if our population is set to hit 6.9mil, it means that govt will actually increase the number of new citizens each yr to make up for the shortfall :scared-1: tio bo?
u trigger a qn in me.
say 5 yrs later, a big bulk of our current construction workers will no longer be required due to lesser constructions BUT if our population is set to hit 6.9mil, it means that govt will actually increase the number of new citizens each yr to make up for the shortfall :scared-1: tio bo?
Many of the construction workers are housed in Dorms.....they do not compete for rental units, similarly SBS has dorms for their FWs/Drivers.....but do population count includes these transient workers?
u trigger a qn in me.
say 5 yrs later, a big bulk of our current construction workers will no longer be required due to lesser constructions BUT if our population is set to hit 6.9mil, it means that govt will actually increase the number of new citizens each yr to make up for the shortfall :scared-1: tio bo?
Wow! I used to think Mermaids are bimbos, but now I think very differently! This Mermaid is very smart!
The increase in population has to be in the top Echeleon la ... Government wont increase the population at the lower band. My prediction is that Government will only let in people who can at least afford a PC (but whether they choose to stay in PC or HBD is their choice), but they must have that kinda financial abilities or potential.
This was what happened in the past few years, we keep taking people in at the PC level. Thats why PC price went up. Because demand goes up. Those who MTB, are washed further and further away from the boat!
In essence, we are "downgraded" from the (say) top 15% to the top 25% ! So imagine those used to be top 20% who should be able to afford PC, now become borderline case of 30%.
That is why many people panicked, because they know that once you get "washed", very hard to climb back, the washing will continue.
DKSG
Confirm rentals will be supported in the coming years.
Once these new citizens settled down for a few years, most of them would want to own their properties as well, fuelling further demand.
By the Jurong at $1,650 psf will no longer be Wow! it will be quite the norm.
So, if you spot anything less than $1,650 psf between Jurong and D9, just buy!
DKSG
I need to put a caveat in the above statement. Rentals will be supported IF and ONLY IF, your PC is not right next to or opposite a MRT station! Because so many MRT stations are being build, many PCs are getting affected! Hard to find tenants!
So in the next few years, the reversal is true : PCs in non-MRT construction areas will find many tenants because after less-ing out those near MRT construction, the supply gets smaller!
DKSG
More people more support for all business
And those borderline become unable to afford PC after latest enforcement of TDSR cooling measure!
Wow! I used to think Mermaids are bimbos, but now I think very differently! This Mermaid is very smart!
The increase in population has to be in the top Echeleon la ... Government wont increase the population at the lower band. My prediction is that Government will only let in people who can at least afford a PC (but whether they choose to stay in PC or HBD is their choice), but they must have that kinda financial abilities or potential.
This was what happened in the past few years, we keep taking people in at the PC level. Thats why PC price went up. Because demand goes up. Those who MTB, are washed further and further away from the boat!
In essence, we are "downgraded" fromTehe (say) top 15% to the top 25% ! So imagine those used to be top 20% who should be able to afford PC, now become borderline case of 30%.
That is why many people panicked, because they know that once you get "washed", very hard to climb back, the washing will continue.
DKSG
They still can afford PC more than hdb
And those borderline become unable to afford PC after latest enforcement of TDSR cooling measure!
First unit can la ... Sell HDB, then buy PC.
The government is trying their best to make sure people at least can easily own one PC. If not there could potentially be too many unhappy people.
But I agree that those borderline cases a few CMs away, are not border-ed lin-ed.
Thats why earlier so many people quickly buy for their children.
DKSG
Pikachu1245
14-07-13, 10:39
I been using my brain to think about how to make Singapore more independent of outside economy for >50 years and my conclusion is that Singapore really needs a population of at least 12m to have a big enough serviced based domestic economy to weather economic recession originating from outside of Singapore! :beats-me-man:
So regardless of whether working or not, aging or not, young or old, as long as they have more than enough money to retire and support themselves here, they are welcomed! Old ones are good because then our Surgeons will have more patients to see and operate on and they will become more experienced! I think the govt make 1 big mistake - that is to slow down population intake. They should speed population intake simultaneously with infrastructure expansion otherwise the added infrastructure becomes "white elephant" and is wasting tax-payers' money! :simmering:
12million... Wow...contrarian view... Even true, hard to get voter support
my guess is 8mil, not 12mil. most of the other global cities that Singapore tends to compare itself to are largely hovering at an 8mil population.
phantom_opera
15-07-13, 09:08
I think what teddy meant was there aren't enough carrot heads even with 6.9m
:tongue3:
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