View Full Version : A New Property Paradigm?
Eldenfirefly
06-03-12, 16:50
I was just reading all the threads about OCR and CCR gap closing. Anyway, here's my take on it.
Are we reaching a new stage of property paradigm? One where the city fringe is moving outwards? Especially with the advert of circle line, there are now certain previously CCR regions which are now less assessible or connected as compared to the new "city fringe" regions connected by the circle line.
Thus, last time Newton, Novena would be considered city fringe. They are CCR, but not quite CBD area. But today, this is being moved to Toa Payoh, Bishan.
What do we define by city fringe anyway? I have a new definition. You can reach Orchard Road within 15 minutes, and CDB within 20 min. Last time, when MRT was not so well connected, cars were the order of the day, and so Novena, Newton would be considered city fringe.
But today, using MRT, then it is the areas which are beyond those, nearer circle line that would be more attractive because of connectivity. Not only can they get to Orchard road in 15 min, they can also go to the east, or to the west directly within 15 to 20 min.
In comparision, those living in Newton, Novena would have to now travel backwards up towards Bishan to benefit from this increased connectivity.
At the same time, hubs have sprung up in residential estates throughout Singapore. Orchard road is now no longer the only place to go for shopping. Toa Payoh HDB hub, Bishan, Tampinies, Bedok, Jurong, they all have shopping hubs where you can buy everything you want.
This doesn't mean prestige addresses aren't important. They are, but if we want prestige, then the hottest place to be in these days is around the Marina Bay area. Or at least the places which are really right in the heart of the city. Novena and Newton suffers from being neither here nor there. They are not truely prestige, location wise, and yet, they are now no longer truely city fringe - once you factor in the MRT circle line connectivity.
The new hubs in further residential centres also create new clusters where pricing of houses may increase. Thus, Tampines and Bedok is an example of such a hub, so is Bishan, Toa Payoh, Serangoon, and in the rest, Jurong. Since they can't build shopping hubs and such amenities near every single MRT station. You to make sure your property is closer to such new "hubs".
Thus, Newton and Novena suffers from this. They are not in themselves a hub. You don't go there to shop, or I don't know how many people go there just to eat. And since Orchard road itself these days is suffering from such competition from the new shopping hubs, being one or two stations way from Orchard road is no longer the draw it once was.
So, are we facing such a new paradigm? Is that why certain OCR prices coninue to narrow the gap while CCR stagnants? Note that I am not saying all OCR will equalise. It shouldn't. That doesn't make sense because ultimately, there is only one CBD area where many go to work in. But the gap could narrow for certain segments of OCR which are linked into the MRT network well, and have developed shopping hubs of their own.
What do you all think? :)
I totally agree. Pls send this article to all Novena and Newton property sellers so we can bargain down 15%... Teeheehee
I totally agree. Pls send this article to all Novena and Newton property sellers so we can bargain down 15%... Teeheehee
send to ST to post this in their article column I use it to bargain with D11 owners 25% down!
blackjack21trader
06-03-12, 18:07
that is correct, brother ! you are very clever indeed.
very interesting read. :)
I think if we combine to publish all insightful prose written by the bro n sis here into a book can call it "Con. Do. Singapore." liao... Lol
Another Mr B of Newton/Novena?
Like Mr B of Bukit Timah? :ashamed1:
How about some real thing?:
Heard there is plan to build a nuclear plant off the southern islands off Singapore. What will that do to properties in the southern tip, like Marina Bay, Harbour Front? If explode like Japan means ??? :scared-1:
I think if we combine to publish all insightful prose written by the bro n sis here into a book can call it "Con. Do. Singapore." liao... Lol
There is a possibility some ocr area are forming into a new ccr. Only in these area the rate of growth will outperform the ccr. Its more to do with the rate of investment the government and private sectors are pouring. For example a run downed orchard road can be a less attractive place to do business than let's say highly invested paya lebar. Knowing which area will be highly invested in the future is a million dollar question. Just follow the money trail.
There is a possibility some ocr area are forming into a new ccr. Only in these area the rate of growth will outperform the ccr. Its more to do with the rate of investment the government and private sectors are pouring. For example a run downed orchard road can be a less attractive place to do business than let's say highly invested paya lebar. Knowing which area will be highly invested in the future is a million dollar question. Just follow the money trail.
the Ponggol 21 and the Jurong lake area seems to be the upcoming jewel.
anyone here can chime in where else is starting to hot up?
paya lebar will be interesting as well
I was just reading all the threads about OCR and CCR gap closing. Anyway, here's my take on it.
Are we reaching a new stage of property paradigm? One where the city fringe is moving outwards? Especially with the advert of circle line, there are now certain previously CCR regions which are now less assessible or connected as compared to the new "city fringe" regions connected by the circle line.
Thus, last time Newton, Novena would be considered city fringe. They are CCR, but not quite CBD area. But today, this is being moved to Toa Payoh, Bishan.
What do we define by city fringe anyway? I have a new definition. You can reach Orchard Road within 15 minutes, and CDB within 20 min. Last time, when MRT was not so well connected, cars were the order of the day, and so Novena, Newton would be considered city fringe.
But today, using MRT, then it is the areas which are beyond those, nearer circle line that would be more attractive because of connectivity. Not only can they get to Orchard road in 15 min, they can also go to the east, or to the west directly within 15 to 20 min.
In comparision, those living in Newton, Novena would have to now travel backwards up towards Bishan to benefit from this increased connectivity.
At the same time, hubs have sprung up in residential estates throughout Singapore. Orchard road is now no longer the only place to go for shopping. Toa Payoh HDB hub, Bishan, Tampinies, Bedok, Jurong, they all have shopping hubs where you can buy everything you want.
This doesn't mean prestige addresses aren't important. They are, but if we want prestige, then the hottest place to be in these days is around the Marina Bay area. Or at least the places which are really right in the heart of the city. Novena and Newton suffers from being neither here nor there. They are not truely prestige, location wise, and yet, they are now no longer truely city fringe - once you factor in the MRT circle line connectivity.
The new hubs in further residential centres also create new clusters where pricing of houses may increase. Thus, Tampines and Bedok is an example of such a hub, so is Bishan, Toa Payoh, Serangoon, and in the rest, Jurong. Since they can't build shopping hubs and such amenities near every single MRT station. You to make sure your property is closer to such new "hubs".
Thus, Newton and Novena suffers from this. They are not in themselves a hub. You don't go there to shop, or I don't know how many people go there just to eat. And since Orchard road itself these days is suffering from such competition from the new shopping hubs, being one or two stations way from Orchard road is no longer the draw it once was.
So, are we facing such a new paradigm? Is that why certain OCR prices coninue to narrow the gap while CCR stagnants? Note that I am not saying all OCR will equalise. It shouldn't. That doesn't make sense because ultimately, there is only one CBD area where many go to work in. But the gap could narrow for certain segments of OCR which are linked into the MRT network well, and have developed shopping hubs of their own.
What do you all think? :)
Interesting......
So if OCR condo at location you perceive as good and near current or future hub and novena or newton condo asking the same price, which will you choose?:cheers4:
ikan bilis
06-03-12, 20:16
http://news.omy.sg/News/Local%2BNews/Story/OMYStory201203060500-317071.html
郊区当中白沙家庭最有钱 35％月入逾$9000
欣乐国际房地产咨询公司（SLP）最新出炉的研究报告显示，住在榜鹅的家庭，月入超过9000元的，达到30％，全国平均则为26％。
换言之，有能力提升到私宅或执行共管公寓（EC）的榜鹅居民，比率相当高，在全国所有郊区当中，排名第二。
排名第一的是白沙，共有35％的家庭，月入超过9000元。
榜鹅最多大学毕业生
另外，在教育程度方面，榜鹅居民当中，拥有大学学历的居民，比率是全国最高的，也就是说，他们可能拥有更高的收入，负担私宅的能力也更强。
榜鹅目前有1万8000户人家，超过6万4500个居民。
榜鹅私宅市场 不会消化不良
欣乐国际的研究报告说，政府售地计划下出售的私宅和EC地皮，将为榜鹅注入约5400个单位，但是，来自组屋提升者的需求强劲，因此，榜鹅的私宅市场应该不会“消化不良”。
欣乐国际执行董事麦俊荣说：“快速增长的居民人口是对私宅需求的一个重要因素。榜鹅新镇的人口，从前年的5万9400人，增加至6万4500人，增幅是8.6％，远远超越全国平均的0.47％。”
此外，最可能组织家庭、年龄介于25至34岁的居民，在榜鹅占了19％，高于15％的全国平均数。这19％相等于1万2000个居民。
Jonathan0503
06-03-12, 20:39
In terms of prestige, I don't think marina bay can overtake orchard.
Marina bay is still labelled as a financial center and not a full fledge and established residential enclave.
Furthermore, they are mostly 99lh whereby value is not so sustainable. And most are small units, unlike Orchard where u will really find big luxurious apartments with their own fenced up compound.
They probably may have 1 extra "present" nearby in southern island in future to ensure their endless supply of electricity: Nuclear Power Plant...........(very green indeed!) :p
In terms of prestige, I don't think marina bay can overtake orchard.
Marina bay is still labelled as a financial center and not a full fledge and established residential enclave.
Furthermore, they are mostly 99lh whereby value is not so sustainable. And most are small units, unlike Orchard where u will really find big luxurious apartments with their own fenced up compound.
So what should be the gap between properties at OCR hub And CCR properties?if you ask mr stanlingrad he will sayer should be higher than ccr
So what should be the gap between properties at OCR hub And CCR properties?if you ask mr stanlingrad he will sayer should be higher than ccr
seriously i dun mind :) Then can hoot more CCR but by then stalingrad might probably have hooted some himself keke :p
Eldenfirefly
06-03-12, 23:17
I think selected OCR's gap and city fringe CCR will narrow because of what I mentioned in my first post. But not close completely. Like I said in the my post, proximity to CBD area still makes a difference. But gap narrow means maybe CCR may stagnant or not rise as much, while those selected OCR will continue to increase at a faster rate.
There is another factor I think at play here too. The increase in wealth and buying power of many of the middle class due to the increase in prices of HDB.
Everyone aspires to own property in Singapore. Those middle class that already own a HDB. Many now sitting on good profits due to the sharp rise in HDB prices. They can now aspire to upgrade. Yet, CCR is perceived as too out of their budget. So, they aim OCR instead, especially since many may actually already stay there, and are used to it.
And since location is king. Then, within OCR, the best places are obviously those near or around MRT stations, espeically those that are not only well connected MRT wise, but are also the new shopping hubs. (Most of the middle class shop at these rather than in Orchard road anyway).
This causes an increase in demand for OCR condo as well. Thus, the gap narrows... Now, I don't think it will ever completely close. But as I said, it may explain the trend of narrowing which we have been seeing.
What do you guys think? :)
singaporecondo99
06-03-12, 23:59
If that's case, this would be a good time to buy CCR property.
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 09:44
Hmmm, what's the rationale of buying CCR now?
I think selected OCR's gap and city fringe CCR will narrow because of what I mentioned in my first post. But not close completely. Like I said in the my post, proximity to CBD area still makes a difference. But gap narrow means maybe CCR may stagnant or not rise as much, while those selected OCR will continue to increase at a faster rate.
There is another factor I think at play here too. The increase in wealth and buying power of many of the middle class due to the increase in prices of HDB.
Everyone aspires to own property in Singapore. Those middle class that already own a HDB. Many now sitting on good profits due to the sharp rise in HDB prices. They can now aspire to upgrade. Yet, CCR is perceived as too out of their budget. So, they aim OCR instead, especially since many may actually already stay there, and are used to it.
And since location is king. Then, within OCR, the best places are obviously those near or around MRT stations, espeically those that are not only well connected MRT wise, but are also the new shopping hubs. (Most of the middle class shop at these rather than in Orchard road anyway).
This causes an increase in demand for OCR condo as well. Thus, the gap narrows... Now, I don't think it will ever completely close. But as I said, it may explain the trend of narrowing which we have been seeing.
What do you guys think? :)
The perceived `closing of gap' is really just referring to psf basis. End of the day, high psf is important to developers as it allows them to maintain the same margin (due to higher land prices). BUT to the buyer, quantum is still the relevant factor. High psf is not as important as long as you still have 3 separate rooms BUT in a smaller floor area. As the quantum gets higher up the pyramid, the number of people who can afford will naturally be smaller.
And secondly, the `closing of gap' often times refers to new launch OCR high psf vs resale CCR/ RCR. I am monitoring the condos along the stretch of Bukit Timah that floods all the time, hoping to see if the prices are softening, especially Tessarina. Recently there is a 3 bedder sold at $1,250 psf or $1.65m. Granted this project is prone to flood, but I think this buyer got a rather good deal vs the new launch OCR LH condos.
Hmmm, what's the rationale of buying CCR now?
Or, whats the rationale of buying new OCR despite it being higher PSF than resale CCR like the example mentioned above?
Orchard Road started as OCR (or countryside in the early days).
It's hard to believe, but just over a hundred years ago Orchard Road was out in the countryside, hence its name....
http://timlight.mymalaya.com/SingaporeThroughTheAges/Orchard%20Road.html
Learn something from history and the city landscape development, enjoy.
felicia_sg
07-03-12, 10:43
Yes that was in 1900s, but then the rest of Singapore was for the uncivilised, infested with pests, wild animals, & don't even got proper roads & such cement buildings! :scared-3:
Orchard Road started as OCR (or countryside in the early days).
It's hard to believe, but just over a hundred years ago Orchard Road was out in the countryside, hence its name....
http://timlight.mymalaya.com/SingaporeThroughTheAges/Orchard%20Road.html
Learn something from history and the city landscape development, enjoy.
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:03
just dont buy anything to invest now unless got 20% discount from ave transacted px
20% i aso not so keen.....LOL
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:19
Yeah, I agree. In general, everything looks expensive to me. So, I wouldn't buy now. But who knows, perhaps even after the correction, certain OCR regions will hold their value better than others due to this "paradigm shift" I am talking about. :)
Last time, Orchard road was the In place to be in. Even got this term called center point kids.
Nowadays, got Tampines, Bishan, Toa Payoh, Jurong, Serangoon Nex, etc etc, so I think the draw of Orchard road is no longer as compelling. Orchard road is still a place tourists love to go. But its not tourists that buy property here, its Singaporeans...
Be honest, how many of you actually shop at Orchard Road regularly?
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:37
Just to add, the current property market, especially the new launches smacks of speculation. Avoid if possible. Don't be taken in by the glossy marketing. New launches are going for as much as 30% higher in psf compared to an existing condo which is like maybe 500m or 1 km away. How does that even make sense?
People like new stuff. But they forget that what they buy "new", a few years later, will be come same as everything else. Because of the bullishness on the property market, "New" is being sold at a premium. Don't be taken in.
When I bought my condo in Bishan. It was at 700 plus psf. At that time, the resale condos in Bishan also all around the same psf, or maybe even a bit higher. So, its fine. These days, new launches are nowhere priced near to nearby condos. They are all being priced high high. Beware. I waiting to see if Sky Habitat will set new records when it launch. But I will be happy to stay in my Clover in the meantime.
The higher Sky Habitat launches, the higher the buffer it will create for Clover, which is just 2 bus stops away. So, how much will you pay for being 2 bus stops nearer to MRT, 400 psf? 600 psf? lol
average male like me can't afford without a 30yr loan.. :(
dunno want find gf or not:(
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:41
Just to add, the current property market, especially the new launches smacks of speculation. Avoid if possible. Don't be taken in by the glossy marketing. New launches are going for as much as 30% higher in psf compared to an existing condo which is like maybe 500m or 1 km away. How does that even make sense?
People like new stuff. But they forget that what they buy "new", a few years later, will be come same as everything else. Because of the bullishness on the property market, "New" is being sold at a premium. Don't be taken in.
When I bought my condo in Bishan. It was at 700 plus psf. At that time, the resale condos in Bishan also all around the same psf. So, its fine. These days, new launches are nowhere priced near to nearby condos. They are all being priced high high. Beware.
i oredi pointed palette and PV going similar px compared to resale
open ur eyes big big and there are still reasonable new launches
u noe y parv vera like not much ppl noe? even agts also dunwan to sell bcoz i heard comm is only like 0.1x%.....sim lian so stingy....LOL
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:44
Ok lah, I am sure there may be some hidden gems here and there. :)
I am saying in general mah.
Yah loh, but then why need to introduce 10% ABSD if this is the case, they so stupid do unnecessary things? :p
You don't but doesn't mean others don't? Otherwise how to explain the super crowded Orchard Road full of shoppers and dinners? :beats-me-man:
Yeah, I agree. In general, everything looks expensive to me. So, I wouldn't buy now. But who knows, perhaps even after the correction, certain OCR regions will hold their value better than others due to this "paradigm shift" I am talking about. :)
Last time, Orchard road was the In place to be in. Even got this term called center point kids.
Nowadays, got Tampines, Bishan, Toa Payoh, Jurong, Serangoon Nex, etc etc, so I think the draw of Orchard road is no longer as compelling. Orchard road is still a place tourists love to go. But its not tourists that buy property here, its Singaporeans...
Be honest, how many of you actually shop at Orchard Road regularly?
i oredi pointed palette and PV going similar px compared to resale
open ur eyes big big and there are still reasonable new launches
u noe y parv vera like not much ppl noe? even agts also dunwan to sell bcoz i heard comm is only like 0.1x%.....sim lian so stingy....LOL
personally, i don't think PV's location is much to shout about, though not that palette is any better. do you mean to say that PV is ridiculously priced or the other way round?
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:53
Yah loh, but then why need to introduce 10% ABSD if this is the case, they so stupid do unnecessary things? :p
You don't but doesn't mean others don't? Otherwise how to explain the super crowded Orchard Road full of shoppers and dinners? :beats-me-man:
bopian......gear towards populist wat
netizens shout loud loud like mr b aka sissy
but no use one.....some netizens say 10% simply TOO LOW!!!!!!!!!! rich foreigners can easy afford 10%!!! wakakakakakakaka
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:53
A lot of the people at Orchard road are tourists lah. :) I already say already, tourists are not the ones that buy property, even though they always go Orchard road.
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:54
wun be surprised later pte ppty got 5yr MOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, I agree. In general, everything looks expensive to me. So, I wouldn't buy now. But who knows, perhaps even after the correction, certain OCR regions will hold their value better than others due to this "paradigm shift" I am talking about. :)
Last time, Orchard road was the In place to be in. Even got this term called center point kids.
Nowadays, got Tampines, Bishan, Toa Payoh, Jurong, Serangoon Nex, etc etc, so I think the draw of Orchard road is no longer as compelling. Orchard road is still a place tourists love to go. But its not tourists that buy property here, its Singaporeans...
Be honest, how many of you actually shop at Orchard Road regularly?
heh, only go there during office lunch hours when crowd is not as overwhelming as the weekends. on a rare weekend, i feel like a minority or foreigner whenever i stroll down orchard road.
People like new stuff yes, but only at a reasonable premium, not obscene premium, to be treated like carrot-head. Also you fully renovate can be like new, quality definitely much much better than those cheapskate materials used in OCR condos provided by developers!
But these buyers like to be carrot-head, because they have no choice not because they die die must buy new because the property is "new", but they die die must buy new as they don't have enough cash to renovate and/or pay 40% cash immediately to complete the sale! :banghead:
What you hope about Sky Habitat priced high high will bring up Clover will never happen - simply because of above reason: Buyers do not have enough cash, so they will never buy Clover regardless of how much they pay for Sky Habitat! :scared-1:
Just to add, the current property market, especially the new launches smacks of speculation. Avoid if possible. Don't be taken in by the glossy marketing. New launches are going for as much as 30% higher in psf compared to an existing condo which is like maybe 500m or 1 km away. How does that even make sense?
People like new stuff. But they forget that what they buy "new", a few years later, will be come same as everything else. Because of the bullishness on the property market, "New" is being sold at a premium. Don't be taken in.
When I bought my condo in Bishan. It was at 700 plus psf. At that time, the resale condos in Bishan also all around the same psf, or maybe even a bit higher. So, its fine. These days, new launches are nowhere priced near to nearby condos. They are all being priced high high. Beware. I waiting to see if Sky Habitat will set new records when it launch. But I will be happy to stay in my Clover in the meantime.
The higher Sky Habitat launches, the higher the buffer it will create for Clover, which is just 2 bus stops away. So, how much will you pay for being 2 bus stops nearer to MRT, 400 psf? 600 psf? lol
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:55
personally, i don't think PV's location is much to shout about, though not that palette is any better. do you mean to say that PV is ridiculously priced or the other way round?
Maybe he is saying that at laest PV is fairly priced, instead of ridiculously overpriced like some of the other launches, which are priced much higher than nearby condos. :)
wun be surprised later pte ppty got 5yr MOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
wah bro, don't give the ruling party such ideas. if these kind of ridiculous measures continue, it's high time to re-look at europe
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:57
must narrow income gap......
pte ppty shall have 5yrs MOP
within MOP, cant sell, cant rent out, cant buy another ppty
wakakakakaka
Maybe he is saying that at laest PV is fairly priced, instead of ridiculously overpriced like some of the other launches, which are priced much higher than nearby condos. :)
pardon me for being sua-gu, cos never did much research on developments around hougang.
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:58
Maybe he is saying that at laest PV is fairly priced, instead of ridiculously overpriced like some of the other launches, which are priced much higher than nearby condos. :)
PV same priced as old old 99LH hougang green
must narrow income gap......
pte ppty shall have 5yrs MOP
within MOP, cant sell, cant rent out, cant buy another ppty
wakakakakaka
narrow income gap very simple. just implement minimum wage like what M'sia is gonna do. some press reports claim that 80% of SMEs will go bust in M'sia if the motion gets legislated :eek:
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 11:59
People like new stuff yes, but only at a reasonable premium, not obscene premium, to be treated like carrot-head. But these buyers like to be carrot-head, because they have no choice not because they die die must buy new because the property is "new", but they die die must buy new as they don't have enough cash to renovate and/or pay 40% cash immediately to complete the sale! :banghead:
What you hope about Sky Habitat priced high high will bring up Clover will never happen - simply because of above reason: Buyers do not have enough cash, so they will never buy Clover regardless of how much they pay for Sky Habitat! :scared-1:
Hmmm, if they buy Sky Habitat simply because they are hoping to sell it before it TOP, so they can avoid the 40% cash payment, then won't they be risking the tax incur by selling within 4 years? If Sky habitat priced too high, how will they be confident it can go up somemore up to TOP? Seems like a big risk to take if ask me ...
devilplate
07-03-12, 11:59
pardon me for being sua-gu, cos never did much research on developments around hougang.
PV smelly smelly also in D19.....look at older 99lh around there and check their px and quantum den compare it wif PV
PV same priced as old old 99LH hougang green
have to factor in depreciation then eh? is PV in a PAP or WP ward by the way?
devilplate
07-03-12, 12:01
narrow income gap very simple. just implement minimum wage like what M'sia is gonna do. some press reports claim that 80% of SMEs will go bust in M'sia if the motion gets legislated :eek:
min wage whr got enuff
must reduce the wealth of the top 1000 mah!!!
wakakakaka
To many of these people, "no risk no gain" mah! They like to practise "greater fools" theory after seeing financial sectors they easy job easy money earn so much! How else then to explain they die die want to buy a property at 50% premium vs the one next door just because it is new launch? :doh:
Hmmm, if they buy Sky Habitat simply because they are hoping to sell it before it TOP, so they can avoid the 40% cash payment, then won't they be risking the tax incur by selling within 4 years? If Sky habitat priced too high, how will they be confident it can go up somemore up to TOP? Seems like a big risk to take if ask me ...
min wage whr got enuff
must reduce the wealth of the top 1000 mah!!!
wakakakaka
ministers already take pay cut leh :D (not that i think it's sufficient)
cut some more, TPL will stomp feet on TV and cry liao
To many of these people, "no risk no gain" mah! They like to practise "greater fools" theory after seeing financial sectors they easy job easy money earn so much! How else then to explain they die die want to buy a property at 50% premium vs the one next door just because it is new launch? :doh:
maybe they like how it takes after a padi hill terrace? it's like seeing bedok and punggol hit $1200-1400psf 'gasp' 'choke' :eek:
stalingrad
07-03-12, 12:29
The perceived `closing of gap' is really just referring to psf basis. End of the day, high psf is important to developers as it allows them to maintain the same margin (due to higher land prices). BUT to the buyer, quantum is still the relevant factor. High psf is not as important as long as you still have 3 separate rooms BUT in a smaller floor area. As the quantum gets higher up the pyramid, the number of people who can afford will naturally be smaller.
And secondly, the `closing of gap' often times refers to new launch OCR high psf vs resale CCR/ RCR. I am monitoring the condos along the stretch of Bukit Timah that floods all the time, hoping to see if the prices are softening, especially Tessarina. Recently there is a 3 bedder sold at $1,250 psf or $1.65m. Granted this project is prone to flood, but I think this buyer got a rather good deal vs the new launch OCR LH condos.
so Tessarina is now transacting at $1250 psf now, even after that dermatologist harassed the government into elevating the road? what a tragic waster of tax revenues.
basically, you will see lower and lower prices for CCR condos, while OCR condos will go higher until the gap almost disappear. It may not disappear entirely, but for all intentions and purposes, there is not a whole lot one can say about living in CCR vs. OCR, until you are talking about woodlands.
stalingrad
07-03-12, 12:36
send to ST to post this in their article column I use it to bargain with D11 owners 25% down!
You don't need to talk it down. it is already down. Soleil is now selling at about the same prices as CCR condos, in the $1200-1250 psf range.
heh, only go there during office lunch hours when crowd is not as overwhelming as the weekends. on a rare weekend, i feel like a minority or foreigner whenever i stroll down orchard road.
People use to go Orchard to be seen. Now, people go showflats of condo launches to be seen.
buttercarp
07-03-12, 13:26
People use to go Orchard to be seen. Now, people go showflats of condo launches to be seen.
Agree with you.
Also people tend to shop in the heartlands.
No wonder those intergrated living type of condos are doing so well.
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 13:58
I think its not just add a mall to MRT station though. Look at Kembangan. It has a mall near it, but actually, nobody goes to that mall to shop wan. And thus, while it is a nice place to live, it cannot compare with say Bedok or Tampines as a shopping hub.
You need to have enough people traffic in one place, then when you build a shopping center, all the more people will go there, and it will form a cycle of busy place attracts even more people.
That's why I said selected OCR places will close the gap. The danger would be to assume that all OCR will close the gap with CCR. Definitely not I think. And it is also dangerous to assume that just because its next to MRT station, then huat to the sky. Maybe initially, can launch at high price. But after TOP, when people start to live there, or try and rent it out, then its price will adjust to reflect its true value.
Ha ha ha! That is hilarious! You are saying that those owners of Marq@Paterson are stupid idiot, pay so much for their property to see their wealth disappear and their property price become same as OCR! :doh:
Oh by the way, any owners of Marq@paterson are easily multi-millionaires, I bet they are all smarter than you and how can then they be stupid idiot? Or the truth is the other way round? Ok ok, We should see whether OCR increase to $6000 psf or CCR drop to $1000 psf or ??? :scared-1:
so Tessarina is now transacting at $1250 psf now, even after that dermatologist harassed the government into elevating the road? what a tragic waster of tax revenues.
basically, you will see lower and lower prices for CCR condos, while OCR condos will go higher until the gap almost disappear. It may not disappear entirely, but for all intentions and purposes, there is not a whole lot one can say about living in CCR vs. OCR, until you are talking about woodlands.
stalingrad
07-03-12, 14:35
Ha ha ha! That is hilarious! You are saying that those owners of Marq@Paterson are stupid idiot, pay so much for their property to see their wealth disappear and their property price become same as OCR! :doh:
Oh by the way, any owners of Marq@paterson are easily multi-millionaires, I bet they are all smarter than you and how can then they be stupid idiot? Or the truth is the other way round? Ok ok, We should see whether OCR increase to $6000 psf or CCR drop to $1000 psf or ??? :scared-1:
yeah, they have money. but how do you know they earn that money by their high IQs or illegal activities. Most of them are chinese from Indonesia or China, and we know how they got their money.
I think its not just add a mall to MRT station though. Look at Kembangan. It has a mall near it, but actually, nobody goes to that mall to shop wan. And thus, while it is a nice place to live, it cannot compare with say Bedok or Tampines as a shopping hub.
You need to have enough people traffic in one place, then when you build a shopping center, all the more people will go there, and it will form a cycle of busy place attracts even more people.
That's why I said selected OCR places will close the gap. The danger would be to assume that all OCR will close the gap with CCR. Definitely not I think. And it is also dangerous to assume that just because its next to MRT station, then huat to the sky. Maybe initially, can launch at high price. But after TOP, when people start to live there, or try and rent it out, then its price will adjust to reflect its true value.
i agree with you. the issue at hand would be how close the gap between OCR and CCR becomes. just look at punggol, don't even have a critical nucleus yet and lots of carrotheads willing to buy at $1200-1400psf
let's assume OCR hits $1600psf for a leasehold development near MRT, must find a bank that is willing to loan at that kind of valuation too.
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:02
i agree with you. the issue at hand would be how close the gap between OCR and CCR becomes. just look at punggol, don't even have a critical nucleus yet and lots of carrotheads willing to buy at $1200-1400psf
let's assume OCR hits $1600psf for a leasehold development near MRT, must find a bank that is willing to loan at that kind of valuation too.
a few resale ocr MM 99lh/FH not even near mrt tx 15xxpsf liao leh
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:05
Ha ha ha! That is hilarious! You are saying that those owners of Marq@Paterson are stupid idiot, pay so much for their property to see their wealth disappear and their property price become same as OCR! :doh:
Oh by the way, any owners of Marq@paterson are easily multi-millionaires, I bet they are all smarter than you and how can then they be stupid idiot? Or the truth is the other way round? Ok ok, We should see whether OCR increase to $6000 psf or CCR drop to $1000 psf or ??? :scared-1:
no nid to be Marq wat....can be poorer cousins of ccr 1400-1700psf range ones.....MM ocr psf oredi hit 15xxpsf lor
bargain hunter
07-03-12, 15:13
as we had ALL discussed time and time again:
OCR 1500psf = MM or at best around 500 sq ft studios.
CCR 1500psf = big units of almost 2000 sq ft or 3 bedroom units at boutique projects.
the quantum and all other aspects are different and difficult to compare. only the psf is about the same.
a few resale ocr MM 99lh/FH not even near mrt tx 15xxpsf liao leh
and cimb has stopped giving loans for OCR MMs. would this be the first of more to come?
a few resale ocr MM 99lh/FH not even near mrt tx 15xxpsf liao leh
I think it'll continue to go higher and higher! Until a global crisis come and people start losing their jobs. Then only will the holding power shrink.
and cimb has stopped giving loans for OCR MMs. would this be the first of more to come?
Your not updated at all. CIMB is still giving loans as well as CITI. Local banks has never rejected such loans
Your not updated at all. CIMB is still giving loans as well as CITI. Local banks has never rejected such loans
eh? thought it was reported in the press that CIMB stopped liao?
a few resale ocr MM 99lh/FH not even near mrt tx 15xxpsf liao leh
Prestige Heights behind Shaw Plaza 16xx-1700psf transacted. Balestier and no mrt in sight...
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 670,000 409 Strata 1,638 Jan-12
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 560,000 334 Strata 1,678 Jan-12
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 590,000 334 Strata 1,768 Jan-12
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 575,000 344 Strata 1,669 Nov-11
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 540,000 334 Strata 1,618 Nov-11
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 668,800 431 Strata 1,553 Nov-11
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 580,000 344 Strata 1,684 Nov-11
PRESTIGE HEIGHTS* BALESTIER ROAD Apartment 1 515,000 334 Strata 1,543 Nov-11
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:26
Prestige Heights behind Shaw Plaza 16xx-1700psf transacted
tat area under rcr rite?
but still very power....TOPed liao rite...
alexis aso power....1800psf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
eh? thought it was reported in the press that CIMB stopped liao?
http://forums.condosingapore.com/showthread.php?t=13088
so Tessarina is now transacting at $1250 psf now, even after that dermatologist harassed the government into elevating the road? what a tragic waster of tax revenues.
basically, you will see lower and lower prices for CCR condos, while OCR condos will go higher until the gap almost disappear. It may not disappear entirely, but for all intentions and purposes, there is not a whole lot one can say about living in CCR vs. OCR, until you are talking about woodlands.
Haha... see.... i told you he will come and say CCR and OCR no gap lol....
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:30
aiya orchard shd aso build 3xxsqft MM....mabe can hit 5000psf? wakakakakaka
min wage whr got enuff
must reduce the wealth of the top 1000 mah!!!
wakakakaka
old LH99 property must minus at least 10 years lease value, some more, bigger space, so quantum higher and may need heavy makeup (renovation), that y most people buy new ppty from developer
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:34
old LH99 property must minus at least 10 years lease value, some more, bigger space, so quantum higher and may need heavy makeup (renovation), that y most people buy new ppty from developer
dun forget about the overall project condition.....
aiya orchard shd aso build 3xxsqft MM....mabe can hit 5000psf? wakakakakaka
Espada got 344sf
Project Name
Street Name
Type
No. of Units
Price
($)
Area
(Sqft)1
Type of
Area2
Unit Price
($psf)3
Date of Option Exercised / Sales Agreement Signed
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,670,000 667 Strata 2,502 Dec-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,826,358 721 Strata 2,532 May-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,865,000 721 Strata 2,586 May-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,497,686 646 Strata 2,319 Mar-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,882,026 721 Strata 2,610 Jan-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,555,418 689 Strata 2,258 Jan-11
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,497,686 646 Strata 2,319 Dec-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,867,390 721 Strata 2,589 Dec-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,492,260 646 Strata 2,311 Oct-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 986,707 355 Strata 2,778 Oct-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,508,888 646 Strata 2,336 Aug-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,888,083 721 Strata 2,618 Aug-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,592,920 646 Strata 2,466 Aug-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,508,539 646 Strata 2,336 Aug-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,513,966 646 Strata 2,344 Aug-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,503,113 646 Strata 2,327 Jul-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,541,098 646 Strata 2,386 Jul-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,581,741 646 Strata 2,449 Jul-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,513,966 646 Strata 2,344 Jul-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,544,629 646 Strata 2,392 Jul-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,627,763 689 Strata 2,363 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,008,050 452 Strata 2,230 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,305,760 560 Strata 2,333 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 963,863 377 Strata 2,558 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,285,368 560 Strata 2,296 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,061,717 377 Strata 2,818 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,580,000 646 Strata 2,446 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,535,671 646 Strata 2,378 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,280,000 560 Strata 2,287 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,040,107 377 Strata 2,761 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,315,000 560 Strata 2,349 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,021,760 377 Strata 2,712 Jun-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,068,241 377 Strata 2,835 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,700,000 689 Strata 2,468 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,649,466 689 Strata 2,394 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,288,000 560 Strata 2,301 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,052,340 377 Strata 2,793 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,055,194 377 Strata 2,801 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,058,456 377 Strata 2,810 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,048,670 377 Strata 2,784 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,039,600 452 Strata 2,300 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,519,392 646 Strata 2,353 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 990,770 355 Strata 2,789 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,250,088 560 Strata 2,233 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,000,000 355 Strata 2,815 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,827,519 721 Strata 2,534 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,524,818 646 Strata 2,361 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 974,741 355 Strata 2,744 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,042,147 377 Strata 2,766 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 980,333 355 Strata 2,760 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,634,997 689 Strata 2,373 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,255,968 560 Strata 2,244 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,015,751 377 Strata 2,696 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 963,559 355 Strata 2,713 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,003,876 377 Strata 2,665 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,706,402 689 Strata 2,477 May-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,541,098 646 Strata 2,386 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,244,208 560 Strata 2,223 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,562,803 646 Strata 2,420 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 969,150 355 Strata 2,728 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,059,307 452 Strata 2,343 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 952,376 355 Strata 2,681 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,003,443 355 Strata 2,825 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,562,652 689 Strata 2,268 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 978,096 355 Strata 2,754 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,238,328 560 Strata 2,212 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,620,528 689 Strata 2,352 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,613,294 689 Strata 2,342 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,598,825 689 Strata 2,321 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,005,459 377 Strata 2,669 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,627,763 689 Strata 2,363 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,875,970 721 Strata 2,601 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,598,825 689 Strata 2,321 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 971,759 355 Strata 2,736 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,047,917 452 Strata 2,318 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,649,466 689 Strata 2,394 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 999,129 377 Strata 2,652 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,314,768 560 Strata 2,349 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,308,888 560 Strata 2,338 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 986,062 377 Strata 2,617 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 946,785 355 Strata 2,665 Apr-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,524,818 646 Strata 2,361 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,303,008 560 Strata 2,328 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,663,935 689 Strata 2,415 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,656,701 689 Strata 2,405 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,030,831 452 Strata 2,280 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 914,729 355 Strata 2,575 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,053,612 452 Strata 2,331 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 1,076,393 452 Strata 2,381 Mar-10
ESPADA* ST. THOMAS WALK Apartment 1 997,000 377 Strata 2,646 Mar-10
scotts tower not too far off
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:36
i am toking about prime hardcore orchard area like ardmore, or at least cairnhill......
espada to me is RV area
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:38
prestige hts oredi TOPed and yet prices creeping up......so who say MM TOP liao buyer/owners will get shocked?
or u mean shocked to see 344sqft beyond their expectations!!! very livable!!! wakakakakkaa
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 15:41
To be fair, maybe shouldn't bring MM into this. That is a seperate trend of people wanting a piece of the property investment pie, and MM units go for an absolute quantum small enough such that it attracts the most punters. Problem is that it still needs time to justify whether it really is a viable investment asset.
But while the jury is still out on MM's viability as a good investment, it will continue to attract buyers, some willing to totally disregard the high PSF they pay for MM units as long as the absolute quantum is small enough.
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:44
so TS finally see the point?
in fact OCR, CCR gap nvr narrow if u compare the quantum!
i am toking about prime hardcore orchard area like ardmore, or at least cairnhill......
espada to me is RV area
hi, would like to hear your opinion on the following options
1. mintion, low floor 2br at 850k bigger space 980sqf
2. palette high floor, 2br at 750k 743 sqf
3. old 17 yr fh property at upper changi, 2br 850k 1000sqf
5. low rise 1br at pasir ris fh at 750k, 743 sqf
buy for investment and to select one that can withstand more downside during recession, what would you select?
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:52
hi, would like to hear your opinion on the following options
1. mintion, low floor 2br at 850k bigger space 980sqf
2. palette high floor, 2br at 750k 743 sqf
3. old 17 yr fh property at upper changi, 2br 850k 1000sqf
5. low rise 1br at pasir ris fh at 750k, 743 sqf
buy for investment and to select one that can withstand more downside during recession, what would you select?
for the above, palette lor
but for ocr, get 2bdr PV la....650-680k nia.....cheapesttttttttttttttttttttttttt
tat area under rcr rite?
but still very power....TOPed liao rite...
alexis aso power....1800psf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
alexis so power? almost double
devilplate
07-03-12, 15:54
alexis so power? almost double
er....tot alexis those 3xxsqft was launched at 1200psf?
for the above, palette lor
but for ocr, get 2bdr PV la....650-680k nia.....cheapesttttttttttttttttttttttttt
but those are low floor and face hdb leh
higher floor and face longkang, at least 700k, so where got cheap
hi, would like to hear your opinion on the following options
1. mintion, low floor 2br at 850k bigger space 980sqf
2. palette high floor, 2br at 750k 743 sqf
3. old 17 yr fh property at upper changi, 2br 850k 1000sqf
5. low rise 1br at pasir ris fh at 750k, 743 sqf
buy for investment and to select one that can withstand more downside during recession, what would you select?
I'll take minton! TOP earlier than Palette. since its for investment, each year of delay TOP is a good 30+k worth of rental
but those are low floor and face hdb leh
higher floor and face longkang, at least 700k, so where got cheap
Why do u care about facing if its for rental? Lower quantum = higher yield
Since all of the above projects are not that near MRT, Tenants most probably wont pay a lot more rent just for better view, higher floors etc
wun be surprised later pte ppty got 5yr MOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
maybe the day will come if the market goes crazy. Had already done all the necessary sell/buy etc. last year that was a big decision before the last cm5 was announced - and by some luck and chance siam the 3% on 3rd or more ppty of cm5. So the thing to do now is just sit back and watch for the next few years, and see when they wan to go cm6,7,8 etc. or remove cm5, 4 etc.
Why do u care about facing if its for rental? Lower quantum = higher yield
Since all of the above projects are not that near MRT, Tenants most probably wont pay a lot more rent just for better view, higher floors etc
yes, u are rite, i always mixed with my preferences
devilplate
07-03-12, 16:26
but those are low floor and face hdb leh
higher floor and face longkang, at least 700k, so where got cheap
y pay more to face longkang?
devilplate
07-03-12, 16:35
I'll take minton! TOP earlier than Palette. since its for investment, each year of delay TOP is a good 30+k worth of rental
got such much meh
after minus agt comm, bank interest, ppty tax, maint fee, income tax.....sure bor
stalingrad
07-03-12, 16:36
do you guys know that 414 (out of 417) units at Soleil are for sale.
how long has this project been completed?
a new paradigm indeed.
devilplate
07-03-12, 16:36
seriously minton 2bdr cannot buy one....980sqft but duno where all the space goes to....how come 980sqft and yet 2bedrm so small??
got such much meh
after minus agt comm, bank interest, ppty tax, maint fee, income tax.....sure bor
haha rental ma i didnt say yield :D:cheers4:
devilplate
07-03-12, 16:37
do you guys know that 414 units at Soleil are for sale.
how long has this project been completed?
a new paradigm indeed.
y not use The Sail
TOP since 07 and still got so many 5xx units for sale
stalingrad
07-03-12, 16:39
y not use The Sail
TOP since 07 and still got so many 5xx units for sale
but soleil is at novena, and sail is not. don't get my drift? just read the lead article. and the sail has more than 1000 units.
basically everyone, I mean everyone, that owns a unit at soleil, wants to sell. No one wants to live near a hospital.
devilplate
07-03-12, 16:40
reflection top holder now at 1390units for sale....hot hot....
stalingrad
07-03-12, 16:45
reflection top holder now at 1390units for sale....hot hot....
more for sale than there are units in the project, 1100+.
while all condos in OCR sold out in a month or two after launch. a new paradigm is in your face, whether you are too stupid to recognize it or not.
[QUOTE=devilplate]seriously minton 2bdr cannot buy one....980sqft but duno where all the space goes to....how come 980sqft and yet 2bedrm so small??[/QUOTE
Thanks,
because of bw, balcony, planter and HS
Seriously this is getting personal again stalingrad
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 16:53
Yar lor. I was hoping to have a more involved discussion with points being stated for and against this new paradigm argument leh. I did not actually want this to turn into a CCR vs OCR thread. Already said in this thread, its only certain OCR properties. It is dangerous to assume all OCR will grow so fast. And again for CCR, I think it may apply to certain region only. Some CCR region, for the prestige, and they remain close proximity to CBD area, will continue to command high psf, as they should.
Yeah, I agree. In general, everything looks expensive to me. So, I wouldn't buy now. But who knows, perhaps even after the correction, certain OCR regions will hold their value better than others due to this "paradigm shift" I am talking about. :)
Last time, Orchard road was the In place to be in. Even got this term called center point kids.
Nowadays, got Tampines, Bishan, Toa Payoh, Jurong, Serangoon Nex, etc etc, so I think the draw of Orchard road is no longer as compelling. Orchard road is still a place tourists love to go. But its not tourists that buy property here, its Singaporeans...
Be honest, how many of you actually shop at Orchard Road regularly?
I go orchad road frequently. A lot of things there. Kinokuniya. resturants that i like. Better shopping experience.
Jonathan0503
07-03-12, 17:02
i am toking about prime hardcore orchard area like ardmore, or at least cairnhill......
espada to me is RV area
But it's closer to Somerset MRT right? And MM more for rental so close to mrt should be better and can price higher right?
felicia_sg
07-03-12, 17:05
Might as well buy resale, bought already straight away collect rental, don't need to pay interest like new launch when property still under construction you can't rent out yet! :tsk-tsk:
I'll take minton! TOP earlier than Palette. since its for investment, each year of delay TOP is a good 30+k worth of rental
Might as well buy resale, bought already straight away collect rental, don't need to pay interest like new launch when property still under construction you can't rent out yet! :tsk-tsk:
Yep but didnt like the other 2 resale project she listed. All quite far
Eldenfirefly
07-03-12, 17:16
Would also like to talk about the other factor more. The one of increasing wealth of middle class in Singapore which is caused by the increase in their HDB property prices.
Everyone aspires to better themselves right? So, if you are already staying in a 4 or 5 room flat, then the next step would be to try and upgrade to a condo.
We are now at 85%? of population living in flats. And flats have appreciated big big in the last 3 years. So, more and more people can now cash out of their flats and upgrade. This automatically drives demand for condos, espeically OCR condos beacuse they are the cheapest in the island (relatively speaking).
Government faces problem now. If they bring down HDB prices with more CM, then they risk angering a lot of the populance who were previously sitting on nice profits. If they continue to further develop the residential hubs and rivers and stuff like they are doing now, then HDB prices will not come down, and instead, more and more demand for condos will automatically be created (because people aspire to upgrade).
Is 15% of Singapore population living in private property enough? Maybe we need to be prepared for a larger percentage in future to be living in private instead?
http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ocr.pdf
http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ccr.pdf
Should URA expand CCR and RCR areas?
Seriously this is getting personal again stalingrad
here u go again.... defending for your bro devil.
here u go again.... defending for your bro devil.
Not defending anyone. haha just remembered him talking about Singaporean level of english
here u go again.... defending for your bro devil.
haha and btw, when did i ever defended devil?
haha and btw, when did i ever defended devil?
it's ok if you cannot remember when you spoke up for devil before. let's move on, peace.
it's ok if you cannot remember when you spoke up for devil before. let's move on, peace.
Right, i apologise if i have offended u in anyway :cheers1: :cheers6: :cheers4: :cheers5:
Right, i apologise if i have offended u in anyway :cheers1: :cheers6: :cheers4: :cheers5:
I was irritated for a while... but is appreciative of some of your views/comments you gave in the forums here...
I was irritated for a while... but is appreciative of some of your views/comments you gave in the forums here...
Wow, I really don't know what did i say to you to make u feel irritated. TBH, this is my first time noticing ur nick here. So peace. Hope u feel better soon. :cheers4:
I'll take minton! TOP earlier than Palette. since its for investment, each year of delay TOP is a good 30+k worth of rental
Both minton and palette ok. But palette is 99LH on FH land plus condos and EC many many there. Minton got nex mall, mrt interchange, 1km away, busstop direct to nexmall, upside with higher psf thanks to urban residences and suites @ PL. I think both condos if I am not wrong have free shuttle bus to mrt for first yr
devilplate
07-03-12, 17:57
Both minton and palette ok. But palette is 99LH on FH land plus condos and EC many many there. Minton got nex mall, mrt interchange, 1km away, busstop direct to nexmall, upside with higher psf thanks to urban residences and suites @ PL. I think both condos if I am not wrong have free shuttle bus to mrt for first yr
hey palette tat big plot is all FH?
how u noe one?
Both minton and palette ok. But palette is 99LH on FH land plus condos and EC many many there. Minton got nex mall, mrt interchange, 1km away, busstop direct to nexmall, upside with higher psf thanks to urban residences and suites @ PL. I think both condos if I am not wrong have free shuttle bus to mrt for first yr
yes, both have free shuttle bus to mrt
devilplate
07-03-12, 17:58
it's ok if you cannot remember when you spoke up for devil before. let's move on, peace.
i din noe u so petty....i did a search on wat u post den i rem i scold u FUXXX OFFFFFFFFFFFFFF b4
wakakakakak
dammn bo liao u.....wakakakakaa
i din noe u so petty....i did a search on wat u post den i rem i scold u FUXXX OFFFFFFFFFFFFFF b4
wakakakakak
dammn bo liao u.....wakakakakaa
yes, two-face.
now i know u even better.... i am not in a league as you as i will never scold you FUXXX OFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
devilplate
07-03-12, 18:07
yes, two-face.
now i know u even better.... i am not in a league as you as i will never scold you FUXXX OFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
nice!!
come come i am very free now
wakakaka
tell me more
devilplate
07-03-12, 18:08
yes, two-face.
now i know u even better.... i am not in a league as you as i will never scold you FUXXX OFFFFFFFFFFFFFF.
but come here dun bring back the anger....really no point...argue scold scold just forget it.....
i am really surprised u hold the grudge till now....
i goto search wat u post den rem tat incident
wakakakakakak
but come here dun bring back the anger....really no point...argue scold scold just forget it.....
i am really surprised u hold the grudge till now....
i goto search wat u post den rem tat incident
wakakakakakak
it is so common to see arguments here but that is the best part in forum discussions because it brings out the views that each party stands for. i didn't hold grudge against you, but rather i prefer others who wish to mediate between the 2 parties to be more objective or stay out of that "argument" when it gets personal. anyway, your 14k posts in this forum speaks well for u and your views/comments are definitely appreciative.
so TS finally see the point?
in fact OCR, CCR gap nvr narrow if u compare the quantum!
TS, did you READ this ? U wrote very long posts here, but did you READ other's input here ?
And the other single post by bargain hunter ?
That summarize it the best !
Price gap NEVER narrow in terms of quantum . Psf just makes developers happy. And an illusion for average singaporeans, that to think he has closed the gap with the rich. The truth is, the rich had never been richer !
Why? In order to sell RCR 99LH land at CCR prices? :ashamed1:
Don't need lah, don't need such trick also can sell Bedok Residences at $1500 psf, higher than some River Valley resale condos! :p
http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ocr.pdf
http://spring.ura.gov.sg/lad/ore/login/map_ccr.pdf
Should URA expand CCR and RCR areas?
hey palette tat big plot is all FH?
how u noe one?
Haha thought i told u before
please be fair dun play cheap.. compare same age condo, same land status, similar sqft size bedrooms in different districts
ChinSengPoh
08-03-12, 03:06
Why do u care about facing if its for rental? Lower quantum = higher yield
Since all of the above projects are not that near MRT, Tenants most probably wont pay a lot more rent just for better view, higher floors etc
Hi Price,
Besides rental, should we also be concerned if it is easy to dispose of the property when the need arises? Thanks!
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 04:59
TS, did you READ this ? U wrote very long posts here, but did you READ other's input here ?
And the other single post by bargain hunter ?
That summarize it the best !
Price gap NEVER narrow in terms of quantum . Psf just makes developers happy. And an illusion for average singaporeans, that to think he has closed the gap with the rich. The truth is, the rich had never been richer !
Err, who is TS? Me hah? lol
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 05:19
I assume is me la. Why my name become TS now??? lol
The thread is for discussion mah. Ok, let's talk about this point also then. Actually, I wasn't trying to say that the gap between the rich and the poor was narrowing. Never once did I actually say that.
But the various trends converging which I mentioned may indeed cause psf of certain OCR areas to rise faster than CCR. True, the masses don't have so much money, thus they have to make do with smaller units if they are sold higher psf units. But the fact that they are willing to accept such a big compromise shows that the demand there in OCR is a valid one.
CCR is rich man's playground, and will continue to remain that way. Middle class upgraders will not usually automatically consider jumping from HDB to CCR staight away. The lifestyle they have usually doesn't require them to be near Orchard road anyway.
The connectivity I mentioned also brings up another point. Some of the rich may not care so much for pristige but rather prefer the convenience of being near to ammenities, many of which are often the most accesible at the other shopping hubs which are springing up. And ultimately, the rich can afford more than one property, and since there is so much action in the OCR market, it will also draw some of the rich there as well.
Look at Thomson Grand. That is an example of a condo which is definitley nowhere in CCR area, but quite specifically targeted at the rich. The fact that we have a developer who is specifically aiming at richer people in an area which is obviously not CCR shows that today, demand in OCR region is definitely there. And if demand continues to be stronger in OCR regions because of the various points I am bringing up. Then, the gap of pricing between selected OCR region and CCR could narrow as I pointed out.
The equation isn't so simple as CCR = rich people stay there, and OCR = poor people stay there. The rich have enough money to buy property all over the island, including OCR region. The poorer people on the other hand, will usually be content to stay in OCR.
I assume is me la. Why my name become TS now??? lol
The thread is for discussion mah. Ok, let's talk about this point also then. Actually, I wasn't trying to say that the gap between the rich and the poor was narrowing. Never once did I actually say that.
But the various trends converging which I mentioned may indeed cause psf of certain OCR areas to rise faster than CCR. True, the masses don't have so much money, thus they have to make do with smaller units if they are sold higher psf units. But the fact that they are willing to accept such a big compromise shows that the demand there in OCR is a valid one.
CCR is rich man's playground, and will continue to remain that way. Middle class upgraders will not usually automatically consider jumping from HDB to CCR staight away. The lifestyle they have usually doesn't require them to be near Orchard road anyway.
The connectivity I mentioned also brings up another point. Some of the rich may not care so much for pristige but rather prefer the convenience of being near to ammenities, many of which are often the most accesible at the other shopping hubs which are springing up. And ultimately, the rich can afford more than one property, and since there is so much action in the OCR market, it will also draw some of the rich there as well.
Look at Thomson Grand. That is an example of a condo which is definitley nowhere in CCR area, but quite specifically targeted at the rich. The fact that we have a developer who is specifically aiming at richer people in an area which is obviously not CCR shows that today, demand in OCR region is definitely there. And if demand continues to be stronger in OCR regions because of the various points I am bringing up. Then, the gap of pricing between selected OCR region and CCR could narrow as I pointed out.
The equation isn't so simple as CCR = rich people stay there, and OCR = poor people stay there. The rich have enough money to buy property all over the island, including OCR region. The poorer people on the other hand, will usually be content to stay in OCR.
TS is for `threadstarter' :)
Jonathan0503
08-03-12, 07:44
I assume is me la. Why my name become TS now??? lol
The thread is for discussion mah. Ok, let's talk about this point also then. Actually, I wasn't trying to say that the gap between the rich and the poor was narrowing. Never once did I actually say that.
But the various trends converging which I mentioned may indeed cause psf of certain OCR areas to rise faster than CCR. True, the masses don't have so much money, thus they have to make do with smaller units if they are sold higher psf units. But the fact that they are willing to accept such a big compromise shows that the demand there in OCR is a valid one.
CCR is rich man's playground, and will continue to remain that way. Middle class upgraders will not usually automatically consider jumping from HDB to CCR staight away. The lifestyle they have usually doesn't require them to be near Orchard road anyway.
The connectivity I mentioned also brings up another point. Some of the rich may not care so much for pristige but rather prefer the convenience of being near to ammenities, many of which are often the most accesible at the other shopping hubs which are springing up. And ultimately, the rich can afford more than one property, and since there is so much action in the OCR market, it will also draw some of the rich there as well.
Look at Thomson Grand. That is an example of a condo which is definitley nowhere in CCR area, but quite specifically targeted at the rich. The fact that we have a developer who is specifically aiming at richer people in an area which is obviously not CCR shows that today, demand in OCR region is definitely there. And if demand continues to be stronger in OCR regions because of the various points I am bringing up. Then, the gap of pricing between selected OCR region and CCR could narrow as I pointed out.
The equation isn't so simple as CCR = rich people stay there, and OCR = poor people stay there. The rich have enough money to buy property all over the island, including OCR region. The poorer people on the other hand, will usually be content to stay in OCR.
So that also explain why Thomson Grand is not selling very well right?
The Biggest paradigm shift of all times are:
"Not enough cash never mind, buy the dream condo first and try to delay the payment as much as possible to later!"
After delaying payment, hope to flip for a profit!
I requote what I wrote earlier:
I met many younger people, they said they buy HDB DBSS flats! I was surprised and advise them that that is the worst to buy! Why not BTO so much cheaper since comparing about same location for 5-rm HDB flats, BTO is about $500k but DBSS selling $750k (or 50% premium!)? They said:
"Buy BTO means have to come out with cold-hard CASH to renovate, easily >$100k for a 5-room HDB flats to make it real nice, but can't afford because don't have so much CASH, so no choice have to buy HDB DBSS since can loan 90% and don't need to come out CASH lor (except furniture and lights)!"!!! :doh:
Isn't this the same for people buying new launch private condos vs buying resale condos? I won't be surprised many people will be buying Bishan new launch condos at average $1600 psf! I would expect the range to be $1500 psf (for only very few units with big PES) to $1800 psf (for MM units!).
I was just reading all the threads about OCR and CCR gap closing. Anyway, here's my take on it.
Are we reaching a new stage of property paradigm? One where the city fringe is moving outwards? Especially with the advert of circle line, there are now certain previously CCR regions which are now less assessible or connected as compared to the new "city fringe" regions connected by the circle line.
Thus, last time Newton, Novena would be considered city fringe. They are CCR, but not quite CBD area. But today, this is being moved to Toa Payoh, Bishan.
What do we define by city fringe anyway? I have a new definition. You can reach Orchard Road within 15 minutes, and CDB within 20 min. Last time, when MRT was not so well connected, cars were the order of the day, and so Novena, Newton would be considered city fringe.
But today, using MRT, then it is the areas which are beyond those, nearer circle line that would be more attractive because of connectivity. Not only can they get to Orchard road in 15 min, they can also go to the east, or to the west directly within 15 to 20 min.
In comparision, those living in Newton, Novena would have to now travel backwards up towards Bishan to benefit from this increased connectivity.
At the same time, hubs have sprung up in residential estates throughout Singapore. Orchard road is now no longer the only place to go for shopping. Toa Payoh HDB hub, Bishan, Tampinies, Bedok, Jurong, they all have shopping hubs where you can buy everything you want.
This doesn't mean prestige addresses aren't important. They are, but if we want prestige, then the hottest place to be in these days is around the Marina Bay area. Or at least the places which are really right in the heart of the city. Novena and Newton suffers from being neither here nor there. They are not truely prestige, location wise, and yet, they are now no longer truely city fringe - once you factor in the MRT circle line connectivity.
The new hubs in further residential centres also create new clusters where pricing of houses may increase. Thus, Tampines and Bedok is an example of such a hub, so is Bishan, Toa Payoh, Serangoon, and in the rest, Jurong. Since they can't build shopping hubs and such amenities near every single MRT station. You to make sure your property is closer to such new "hubs".
Thus, Newton and Novena suffers from this. They are not in themselves a hub. You don't go there to shop, or I don't know how many people go there just to eat. And since Orchard road itself these days is suffering from such competition from the new shopping hubs, being one or two stations way from Orchard road is no longer the draw it once was.
So, are we facing such a new paradigm? Is that why certain OCR prices coninue to narrow the gap while CCR stagnants? Note that I am not saying all OCR will equalise. It shouldn't. That doesn't make sense because ultimately, there is only one CBD area where many go to work in. But the gap could narrow for certain segments of OCR which are linked into the MRT network well, and have developed shopping hubs of their own.
What do you all think? :)
The new paradigm is everyone want to own a condo. Regardless pf size. N developer dishing out smallish condo n the herd snapping it up
Blindly.
The new paradigm is a bubble waiting to be pricked.
ha ha ha! You good! Just need 1 sentence to point out the killer-problem! :D
A "luxury" condo in a lousy location? And how "luxury" are the luxury they are talking about over there in Thomson Grand? Got Concierge service? Got air-con lift lobby? Doubt they have that right and call themselves "luxury" condo when they don't even have these 2 ingredients + a prime address? :doh:
So that also explain why Thomson Grand is not selling very well right?
The Biggest paradigm shift of all times are:
"Not enough cash never mind, buy the dream condo first and try to delay the payment as much as possible to later!"
After delaying payment, hope to flip for a profit!
I requote what I wrote earlier:
I met many younger people, they said they buy HDB DBSS flats! I was surprised and advise them that that is the worst to buy! Why not BTO so much cheaper since comparing about same location for 5-rm HDB flats, BTO is about $500k but DBSS selling $750k (or 50% premium!)? They said:
"Buy BTO means have to come out with cold-hard CASH to renovate, easily >$100k for a 5-room HDB flats to make it real nice, but can't afford because don't have so much CASH, so no choice have to buy HDB DBSS since can loan 90% and don't need to come out CASH lor (except furniture and lights)!"!!! :doh:
Isn't this the same for people buying new launch private condos vs buying resale condos? I won't be surprised many people will be buying Bishan new launch condos at average $1600 psf! I would expect the range to be $1500 psf (for only very few units with big PES) to $1800 psf (for MM units!).
No leh, that's always been the case....remember DPS? Fully exploited by speculators/ specuvestors and much better than current schemes. Makes current scheme like child's play :D
The Biggest paradigm shift of all times are:
"Not enough cash never mind, buy the dream condo first and try to delay the payment as much as possible to later!"
After delaying payment, hope to flip for a profit!
I requote what I wrote earlier:
I met many younger people, they said they buy HDB DBSS flats! I was surprised and advise them that that is the worst to buy! Why not BTO so much cheaper since comparing about same location for 5-rm HDB flats, BTO is about $500k but DBSS selling $750k (or 50% premium!)? They said:
"Buy BTO means have to come out with cold-hard CASH to renovate, easily >$100k for a 5-room HDB flats to make it real nice, but can't afford because don't have so much CASH, so no choice have to buy HDB DBSS since can loan 90% and don't need to come out CASH lor (except furniture and lights)!"!!! :doh:
Isn't this the same for people buying new launch private condos vs buying resale condos? I won't be surprised many people will be buying Bishan new launch condos at average $1600 psf! I would expect the range to be $1500 psf (for only very few units with big PES) to $1800 psf (for MM units!).
if can't flip for profit, then will have to flip bellyside up like a dead goldfish woh......:eek:
risky game to play
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 08:52
Yeah. People aspiring towards living in a better place has always been there ah. I don't think that has changed. The question would be why the seemingly strong growth in OCR prices (selected places), and CCR seemingly relatively stagnant?
And people wanting to buy now, pay later. Is that new? Previously, can defer any form of payment until the property fully built, those times were even better, and by that reasoning, we should have seen OCR shoot through the roof then when that scheme was in place.
And Fully defered payment until completion benefits both CCR properties and OCR properties alike. It doesn't explain the strong surge and interest in OCR, much more than CCR.
[QUOTE=ChinSengPoh]Hi Price,
Besides rental, should we also be concerned if it is easy to dispose of the property when the need arises? Thanks![/Q
Yes, I am concerned about this as well, another point is, will it be difficult to get tenant if the facing is eg full west sun, as usually facing west unit is very much cheaper than the good facing unit
It has to do with QUANTUM mah! You never read what amk say? Build anything for new launch that sell for <$1.5m absolute value will fly? :scared-1:
If developers build MMs in CCR and sell for absolute amount <$1.5m will also sure fly, even faster? But developers not interested to sell CCR now? You tell us what real prime CCR condos are the developers launching now that sell >$2m? :scared-2:
Yeah. People aspiring towards living in a better place has always been there ah. I don't think that has changed. The question would be why the seemingly strong growth in OCR prices (selected places), and CCR seemingly relatively stagnant?
And people wanting to buy now, pay later. Is that new? Previously, can defer any form of payment until the property fully built, those times were even better, and by that reasoning, we should have seen OCR shoot through the roof then when that scheme was in place.
And Fully defered payment until completion benefits both CCR properties and OCR properties alike. It doesn't explain the strong surge and interest in OCR, much more than CCR.
The new paradigm is everyone want to own a condo. Regardless pf size. N developer dishing out smallish condo n the herd snapping it up
Blindly.
The new paradigm is a bubble waiting to be pricked.
Actually this is also not a new paradigm. I remember one of the first condo I stayed in was a 2600 sqf 3 bedder! Each time my parent `upgraded', the floor area gets smaller but the price stays the same (although location moves closer to town).
Actually I can understand TS's perceived `paradigm shift'. Now price gets higher at location further from town! Well done developers!
Yeah. People aspiring towards living in a better place has always been there ah. I don't think that has changed. The question would be why the seemingly strong growth in OCR prices (selected places), and CCR seemingly relatively stagnant?
And people wanting to buy now, pay later. Is that new? Previously, can defer any form of payment until the property fully built, those times were even better, and by that reasoning, we should have seen OCR shoot through the roof then when that scheme was in place.
And Fully defered payment until completion benefits both CCR properties and OCR properties alike. It doesn't explain the strong surge and interest in OCR, much more than CCR.
That's because developers are now trying to establish a new `support' for OCR baseline price. As long as they managed to consolidate and set a `new' baseline through new OCR launches and buyers become sanitised, they will lauch future CCR condos at higher PSF. Given a choice, developers would love to launch CCR condos at $2000-3000 psf but current environment is not conducive. But they can't be land-banking and not generate sales. Logically they launch OCR at current or slightly below current resale RCR prices to try and push OCR prices.....and thus far, it seems to be quite successful and many new comers to ppty investment has bitten the bait.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 09:33
Correct, and people are biting, why? And not just upgraders, even people with multiple properties are looking at OCR. So, is this new attractiveness of OCR due to the new Paradigm? Has our city fringe shifted outwards? Has the new circle line and the increased connectivity of MRT throughout the island made such a big difference?
Seems like it because all else being equal, this seems to be a big factor. :)
devilplate
08-03-12, 09:34
new paradigm of $$$$ printing la
ccr oredi started to gather momentum in late 2011 but cm5 killed it
without all the CMs, u tink OCR got chance to catch up wif CCR?
firstly, LTV reduce from 80-60%....budget shrinks by half.....den 10% absd.....
devilplate
08-03-12, 09:36
Correct, and people are biting, why? And not just upgraders, even people with multiple properties are looking at OCR. So, is this new attractiveness of OCR due to the new Paradigm? Has our city fringe shifted outwards? Has the new circle line and the increased connectivity of MRT throughout the island made such a big difference?
Seems like it because all else being equal, this seems to be a big factor. :)
if LTV remains at 80% or even 90% and without 10% absd, u tink CCR or OCR will perform better?
so we can also say new paradigm of SG govt and the rise of netizens!
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 09:43
Without the 10% absd, perhaps CCR will also grow, but even then, maybe still not as fast as selected OCR regions. the 10% thingy was only introduced recently, but even before this, the growth in prices of selected OCR was stronger from a percentage basis than those in CCR.
As for LTV, hhmm, I thought some of the rich people here claim they don't borrow money to buy property wan. :) So, it shouldn't be that big a factor leh. And anyways, it applies to both CCR and OCR equally.
stalingrad
08-03-12, 09:46
if LTV remains at 80% or even 90% and without 10% absd, u tink CCR or OCR will perform better?
so we can also say new paradigm of SG govt and the rise of netizens!
CM5 also cools demand for CCR properties. A lot of Chinese are scared off that part of the market. so don't blame CM5.
the death of the CCR segment is due to a confluence of economics, government policy and demographics. I made the same argument as the thread starter four years ago. If you can buy daily necessities at regional malls, what is the point of living at Orchard or River Valley and paying the high prices? Did anyone listen to me? NOOOO!!!
devilplate
08-03-12, 09:47
Without the 10% absd, perhaps CCR will also grow, but even then, maybe still not as fast as selected OCR regions. the 10% thingy was only introduced recently, but even before this, the growth in prices of selected OCR was stronger from a percentage basis than those in CCR.
As for LTV, hhmm, I thought some of the rich people here claim they don't borrow money to buy property wan. :) So, it shouldn't be that big a factor leh. And anyways, it applies to both CCR and OCR equally.
tat is a myth lah......majority CCR investors and speculators take max loan.....y? bcoz CCR prices drop the most in every recession!!! i can find alot more firesale deals in CCR in early 09
in 05-07 boom....do we have LTV reduction? we have DPS instead and speculators happily fry CCR ppty until tio FRIED
The Sail bayview units flipped how many times b4 TOP?? one agt showed me 6 times!!!
devilplate
08-03-12, 09:51
u noe in early 07, every new launches in CCR got SO MANY chq......i gave up and go OCR/RCR showflats instead and served by the agts like a KING!
in 07, some agts shared wif me tat they will always help their investors to put their unit on the market for sale immediately after they bot from developer.....tats how i noe their 10% rule.....5% overheads and 5% profit margin for the speculators/flippers
stalingrad
08-03-12, 09:51
tat is a myth lah......majority CCR investors and speculators take max loan.....y? bcoz CCR prices drop the most in every recession!!! i can find alot more firesale deals in CCR in early 09
in 05-07 boom....do we have LTV reduction? we have DPS instead and speculators happily fry CCR ppty until tio FRIED
The Sail bayview units flipped how many times b4 TOP?? one agt showed me 6 times!!!
that is a myth perpetuated by Teddy, AMK, HP65, and CCR. these people are in permanent denial.
stalingrad
08-03-12, 09:53
u noe in early 07, every new launches in CCR got SO MANY chq......i gave up and go OCR/RCR showflats instead and served by the agts like a KING!
that is right.
It took almost one year for Carabelle to sell out in 2006 and 07. it took one day for Duchess Residences to sell out in 2007.
What is left holding the bag now?
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:01
Stalingrad, I sense a lot of anger in you somehow... Err, why so angry? Calm down. We are just having a friendly discussion on a forum. :)
Its a forum! Exchange of views is healthy mah. Opinions, topics, situations may all change mah. Like someone said, 100 years ago, Orchard road was city fringe, hence the name Orchard Road. Now, we may be looking at a new city fringe.
Situations change. Especially Singapore, which has developed so fast over the last 40 years, change is almost a constant.
Without the 10% absd, perhaps CCR will also grow, but even then, maybe still not as fast as selected OCR regions. the 10% thingy was only introduced recently, but even before this, the growth in prices of selected OCR was stronger from a percentage basis than those in CCR.
As for LTV, hhmm, I thought some of the rich people here claim they don't borrow money to buy property wan. :) So, it shouldn't be that big a factor leh. And anyways, it applies to both CCR and OCR equally.
Hi Eldenfirefly
To certain extend you did give viewpoints that sound valid of the shift in paradigm.
Would ask again, if condo of same size in newton and novena asking the same psf as condo in your list of good OCR, which will you buy?
Just a casual question no answer is fine for me too
I will still go for D11. Old thinking I guess :cheers6:
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:05
Hi Eldenfirefly
To certain extend you did give viewpoints that sound valid of the shift in paradigm.
Would ask again, if condo of same size in newton and novena asking the same psf as condo in your list of good OCR, which will you buy?
Just a casual question no answer is fine for me too
I will still go for D11. Old thinking I guess :cheers6:
ur scenerio will nvr happen
novena got Mall, MRT and near to orchard and CBD
those wat JLD story is another changi biz park one.....high end expats will always remain in CBD......marina bay will be the next upcoming new CBD!!! camp around there sure HUAT!
stalingrad
08-03-12, 10:05
Stalingrad, I sense a lot of anger in you somehow... Err, why so angry? Calm down. We are just having a friendly discussion on a forum. :)
Its a forum! Exchange of views is healthy mah. Opinions, topics, situations may all change mah. Like someone said, 100 years ago, Orchard road was city fringe, hence the name Orchard Road. Now, we may be looking at a new city fringe.
Situations change. Especially Singapore, which has developed so fast over the last 40 years, change is almost a constant.
I am not angry. why should be be angry. I am happy to have been right all along.
by the way, whatever you said in your treatise, I said it four or even five years ago. that is true.
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:07
I am not angry. why should be be angry. I am happy to have been right all along.
by the way, whatever you said in your treatise, I said it four or even five years ago. that is true.
but hor, if next deep recession strike, i believe OCR condo will drop the most
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:10
Hi Eldenfirefly
To certain extend you did give viewpoints that sound valid of the shift in paradigm.
Would ask again, if condo of same size in newton and novena asking the same psf as condo in your list of good OCR, which will you buy?
Just a casual question no answer is fine for me too
I will still go for D11. Old thinking I guess :cheers6:
That is one tough question for me to answer! I have never stayed in D11 personally. All my life, I was staying in OCR region lah. And they are now bringing so many things to the new OCR hubs.
Shopping centres, amenities, they are even beautifying the long kangs to become like landscaped rivers (just see what the ABC project has turned the bishan longkang into and you will know).
It makes it hard to justify I guess. From a personal point of view, I would prefer Bishan to Newton or Novena. More makan, just as many options for shopping (and more my type of taste wan cos I not so into branded stuff). Some piece and quiet at parks when I want... And actually better connectivity via MRT, which I still use alot. (I only drive my car on weekends).
But the older viewpoint still will hold for some time to come. So I suspect that CCR will continue to be priced higher than even the "hot" OCR hubs. But I do think the gap will narrow somewhat.
stalingrad
08-03-12, 10:11
but hor, if next deep recession strike, i believe OCR condo will drop the most
It would be nice if you make a smart argument every now and then.
In a deep recession, hot money will leave the country faster than you can say "freeze." Hot money fuels demand for CCR properties. thus, CCR properties will melt like asphalt on a hot summer day in a recession.
OCR properties are fueled by upgrading from HDB. Upgrading will happen in every economic climate.
Condo Kaiser
08-03-12, 10:12
Hi Eldenfirefly
To certain extend you did give viewpoints that sound valid of the shift in paradigm.
Would ask again, if condo of same size in newton and novena asking the same psf as condo in your list of good OCR, which will you buy?
Just a casual question no answer is fine for me too
I will still go for D11. Old thinking I guess :cheers6:
Lets make the comparison more exact.
Maybe can compare Lincoln Suites against Sky Habitat? Both are a small walking distance away from Novena and Bishan MRT respectively. Ignoring the LH/FH factor (just assume Sky habitat is FH for sake of discussion). Which would someone buy if they are both comparable in Size/Facing/PSF/Quantum/built quality?
I know i would definitely buy Lincoln Suites.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:14
but hor, if next deep recession strike, i believe OCR condo will drop the most
I think some will drop, others may not. Depends on whether that property was sold mainly to investors (speculators) or as a place to stay. If it is mostly stayed by true HDB upgraders (like me), then it makes no diff whether got recession or not.
On the other hand, if its mostly MM style units, or small 1/2 bedders aimed at speculators... then I think that one will kenna jia lat jia lat.
Stalingrad, I sense a lot of anger in you somehow... Err, why so angry? Calm down. We are just having a friendly discussion on a forum. :)
Its a forum! Exchange of views is healthy mah. Opinions, topics, situations may all change mah. Like someone said, 100 years ago, Orchard road was city fringe, hence the name Orchard Road. Now, we may be looking at a new city fringe.
Situations change. Especially Singapore, which has developed so fast over the last 40 years, change is almost a constant.
He's angry because he still can't buy a CCR condo :cheers1: after 4 years of trying to talk down all condos except his crappybelle....day-dreaming lah :D Play monopoly more shiok and better for commie.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:17
Lets make the comparison more exact.
Maybe can compare Lincoln Suites against Sky Habitat? Both are a small walking distance away from Novena and Bishan MRT respectively. Ignoring the LH/FH factor (just assume Sky habitat is FH for sake of discussion). Which would someone buy if they are both comparable in Size/Facing/PSF/Quantum/built quality?
I know i would definitely buy Lincoln Suites.
If they are launching Sky Habitat at some ridiculous PSF, then I won't buy it myself lor. But I will be honest, as an area to live in, I prefer Bishan to Novena. Just me. :)
Everything has a fair value mah. So, nice area to stay in, but if overpriced, then no point lor.
Condo Kaiser
08-03-12, 10:18
But then again,
Novena is not CCR by any means la..... RCR at best in my opinion....
Condo Kaiser
08-03-12, 10:23
If they are launching Sky Habitat at some ridiculous PSF, then I won't buy it myself lor. But I will be honest, as an area to live in, I prefer Bishan to Novena. Just me. :)
Everything has a fair value mah. So, nice area to stay in, but if overpriced, then no point lor.
Yeah agree... If you are talking abt personal preference then anywhere in Singapore could be someone's top choice. I know people who really like living in Woodlands also. :cheers1:
If Sky habitat was FH.. I think the PSF wont be much lower than that of Lincoln Residence or the likes in Novena Area.
I was trying to point out that no matter how developed the regional facilities and transport network becomes, there will always be a gap between CCR and OCR/RCR.... This gap could be in terms of PSF or quantum or both... It is only fair if we compare between the best in each category and know what the gap is...
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:30
for investment wise, mostly depends on whr the high end expats r working.....
go take a look at the marina bay gallery.....govt spending billions......
stalingrad
08-03-12, 10:31
He's angry because he still can't buy a CCR condo :cheers1: after 4 years of trying to talk down all condos except his crappybelle....day-dreaming lah :D Play monopoly more shiok and better for commie.
Now that is an angry person.
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:34
I think some will drop, others may not. Depends on whether that property was sold mainly to investors (speculators) or as a place to stay. If it is mostly stayed by true HDB upgraders (like me), then it makes no diff whether got recession or not.
On the other hand, if its mostly MM style units, or small 1/2 bedders aimed at speculators... then I think that one will kenna jia lat jia lat.
in general, ocr px will fall more in % compared to rcr and ccr in next deep recession
tats wat i mean ;)
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:36
The only problem I have with Marina Bay is this. It just doesn't have easy access to the kind of local Hawker Food that Singaporeans like me love leh. I cannot wake up on a lazy Saturday, walk downstairs to a nearby place and get my favourite Loti Prata or Lorr Mee.
And I already work at Raffles place. A bit sianz to stay there also. :) Going home will not feel like you have left your workplace. lol
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:39
in general, ocr px will fall more in % compared to rcr and ccr in next deep recession
tats wat i mean ;)
Orr, that one I not so sure also. Look at the last recession in 2008/09. HDB is mostly in OCR. By right, HDB should have dropped. But not only did it not drop, it even went up !!!! :eek:
Like I said, it depends on whether the place was truely meant for home stayers/upgraders or whether it was meant for speculators. If its for speculators, then confirm will drop more. (Thus why I think if our property market really goes into correction mode, biggest hit are going to be those MM units).
Just went to Novena this morning, so many expats there. You can even find a brand new 4/5 star Hotel there.
Doctors also like to stay there, so many hospitals, speciliast centers there.
Fibonacci theory stalingrad never heard of? Pull back is always at least 2/3 of the rise?
See, OCR rise from $500 psf to $1200 psf. That is $700 psf. Next crash will drop at least $466.7 psf to $733.3 psf? %age drop is 38.9%! :scared-1:
CCR rise from $1800 psf to $2200 psf. Net crash will drop $266.7 psf or to $1933 psf? %age drop is just 12.1%. (sup sup suai. Even blue-chip stocks drop much more than that!). :D
but hor, if next deep recession strike, i believe OCR condo will drop the most
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:43
The only problem I have with Marina Bay is this. It just doesn't have easy access to the kind of local Hawker Food that Singaporeans like me love leh. I cannot wake up on a lazy Saturday, walk downstairs to a nearby place and get my favourite Loti Prata or Lorr Mee.
And I already work at Raffles place. A bit sianz to stay there also. :) Going home will not feel like you have left your workplace. lol
toking abt investment pt of view mah....
btw i stay in ulu D18 hor....wakaka
shdnt mix investment and personal preference tgt
and dun forget the new upcoming MCE hor....whr the expressway leads to from marina bay? hehehe
Yeah agree... If you are talking abt personal preference then anywhere in Singapore could be someone's top choice. I know people who really like living in Woodlands also. :cheers1:
If Sky habitat was FH.. I think the PSF wont be much lower than that of Lincoln Residence or the likes in Novena Area.
I was trying to point out that no matter how developed the regional facilities and transport network becomes, there will always be a gap between CCR and OCR/RCR.... This gap could be in terms of PSF or quantum or both... It is only fair if we compare between the best in each category and know what the gap is...
Thanks edenfirefly for your reply and Condo Kaiser in helping to refine the comparison.
Agree if buying for own stay do introduce many preferences.
Just for fun, assume size and psf of Lincoln suite is the same as sky habitat and assume sky habitat is FH. Buying for investment to focus on location n amenities, which condo is preferred?
Me will still go for Lincoln suite :)
devilplate
08-03-12, 10:46
can dun use lincoln suites? the layout SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Now that is an angry person.
Whatever that floats your boat :D I only remember once upon a time, you were condemning each and every D5 condos except Crappybelle. Later, you graduated to condemn all CCR condos but still fail to make the switch from crappybelle to a CCR condos....at one point even talked about moving to Woodlands citing near to American School lol
[QUOTE=ChinSengPoh]Hi Price,
Besides rental, should we also be concerned if it is easy to dispose of the property when the need arises? Thanks![/Q
Yes, I am concerned about this as well, another point is, will it be difficult to get tenant if the facing is eg full west sun, as usually facing west unit is very much cheaper than the good facing unit
Hi Price,
Besides rental, should we also be concerned if it is easy to dispose of the property when the need arises? Thanks!
IMO, I will stay away from the direct west sun facing. However, do study the environment thoroughly. Sometimes people focus so much of pool facing units but there's always west sun+pool facing units as well. Or it may be a west sun facing unit however there might be another condo or HDB block blocking the sun? Of course it all falls back to value for $. If it's barely a few dollars or tens of dollars different in psf and ur really keen on the better facing unit then go for it! :D
Whether or not the unit is able to move when u decide to sell it depends entirely on the whole project and price ur asking for. Again, if the buyer is buying for investment he probably will go for the cheapest among all others.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:54
My theory remains the same. If the place is a place which you won't mind staying in, then its probably still ok. But if you die die always cannot imagine staying in that place, then got problem already.
Yes, personal preference comes into play here. But take MM units for example. I look at a 300 sq feet unit, and under no circumstanes can I imagine myself staying in it. It can be right beside MRT for all I care, I still won't stay in it lor. Thus, if I imagine that most people will feel the same way, then I really question how attractive it is, even as an investment property.
Thus, got some outlying OCR places, really ulu ulu wan. I find it hard to justify as "investment" property because quite clearly, only those people who are used to staying there will find it ok. Most other people, including expats, etc will shun those places.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 10:55
[quote=JoyLye]
IMO, I will stay away from the direct west sun facing. However, do study the environment thoroughly. Sometimes people focus so much of pool facing units but there's always west sun+pool facing units as well. Or it may be a west sun facing unit however there might be another condo or HDB block blocking the sun? Of course it all falls back to value for $. If it's barely a few dollars or tens of dollars different in psf and ur really keen on the better facing unit then go for it! :D
Whether or not the unit is able to move when u decide to sell it depends entirely on the whole project and price ur asking for. Again, if the buyer is buying for investment he probably will go for the cheapest among all others.
Facing sometimes makes a big difference. Facing a super busy road or highway, vs facing the opposite direction is like night and day. Can be same condo unit, but I will buy the second and not the first. :) I think there are some condos in CCR that are facing the forever busy CTE. Sell for 1000 psf also I think I won't want to touch lor. The noise there ... how to tahan.
can dun use lincoln suites? the layout SUXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Aiya already say what for the fun of comparison Mah.
Ok ok use soliel with Sky habitat. Both LH oki oki?
Condo Kaiser
08-03-12, 11:06
Aiya already say what for the fun of comparison Mah.
Ok ok use soliel with Sky habitat. Both LH oki oki?
I will take Soleil if hospital further away from my house. lol....
Aiya... Compare Novena with Bishan not fun... both cannot make it....
Compare RV with Bishan la.... Or compare Holland also can
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 11:07
What's RV? lol
For the short to medium term, the answer lies in the liquidity profile of purchasers.
OCR has risen because of profits made in HDB (or fully paid up) + condo repayments, still 100% serviced by CPF, and mostly self stay. Even if they have been taken into high PSFs by marketing gimmicks and MMs, this lot still has holding power because of the CPF factor. MMs not serviced by CPF will fall drastically, but i believe most are paid thru CPF as this profile is generally cash poor.
Investment properties in CCR are held by foreign investors who do not stay but rent. The moment % yield from falling rentals or capital depreciation happens, they will let go.
True prime will always be true prime. CCR is just a political demarcation on a map. Novena is not CCR. Newton is Bt Timah. Hillview is not Bt Timah etc etc. Orchard (bounded by grange and cairnhill) and Marina Bay (NOT tanjong pagar) There will always be a cachet for prime living.
Each locale has its own profile of shoppers and thus amenities. Prime residents that frequent Orchard will not want to shop in suburban malls. Heartland residents that frequent suburban malls will find Orchard a waste of money. Hardly does the twain mix.
Confusion arises only because at the moment, there exists a psf price abitrage between prime and heartlands simply because buyers there have been taken in by good marketing.
In the longer term, in every city in the world i travel to, look at or invest in, true prime always will have a large price gap with the heartlands.
I expect all properties to drop, and MMs not serviced with CPF in the heartlands to drop the most. Aggregation here might pull OCR prices down more only if there is a high percentage of non-CPF MMs around, which i again state that i doubt.
If economy crumbles but unemployment rate stays low, OCR will still maintain. If unemployment rate and job insecurity rises above a threshold, then OCR even those for self stay will plummet.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 11:28
Agree! :)
No matter what happens, people need a place to stay mah. That's why even if taken by glossy marketing, those people who only have that 1 OCR property which they are staying in, will hold on lah. But if its their second "investment" property, and its a MM unit which cannot be rented out. I think they will let go, and thus, those kind will have greater chance of plummeting...
Condo Kaiser
08-03-12, 11:37
What's RV? lol
Lol sorry... River Valley
You compared OCR condos to HDB flats, and say HDB flats price rise even when condo prices fall, so OCR condos won't drop much as for own stay but CCR are for investments will. Big hole in argument here.
I say: OCR condos prices will drop most in next property bust! Why? Reasons:
1) Buyers are all buying new launch, can wait for 4-5 years for the condos to build, so these must be buying 2nd or more properties thus can wait (as they already have existing place to live in).
2) Buyers have little cash, next economic recession if lose job or pay cut sure will be forced to sell. (Rental don't help because OCR condos will be the last choice for expats to consider if CCR rentals are cheap!).
3) OCR condo prices new launch increase from $600 psf to $1400 psf (e.g. Punggol). That is $800 psf increase or 133% increase! And there is so much supply + ECs coming out + HDB flats to compete for housing choices! When selling comes, people will try to cash out fast while there is profits! It is the buy high ones left holding the baby!
4) Consider this: When somebody want to buy a OCR private property really for own stay with budget of say <=$1.5m (not flipping, not paying 50% premium just hoping to flip to next "greater fool"), they will also consider the $400k HDB flats, or that $800k ECs nearby! You think they will pay $1.5m for own stay when $800k EC is next door?
However, I doubt they will consider that >$2m CCR condos! They are just too far apart! That CCR condos' locations have no HDB flats and ECs nearby for you to consider the alternative in that similar location! As such, real CCR housing choices (not talking about MMs, am talking about proper family size properties) don't mix with HDB flats and ECs.
Lastly, Everybody, wait for the OCR "durians" to drop if you die die must buy OCR! :scared-1:
Agree! :)
No matter what happens, people need a place to stay mah. That's why even if taken by glossy marketing, [1]those people who only have that 1 OCR property which they are staying in, will hold on lah. But if its their second "investment" property, and its a MM unit which cannot be rented out. I think they will let go, and thus, those kind will have greater chance of plummeting...
Actually, both of you are correct. The problem with the market now is the price arbitrage between prime and heartlands being supported by CPF and them taken in by hellokitty marketing.
ALL price arbitrages like now will definitely correct. But it might not mean that OCR will drop - maybe CCR will rise and OCR remains flat? The vice versa is also true, that CCR will fall but OCR will fall by a greater degree.
You compared OCR condos to HDB flats, and say HDB flats price rise even when condo prices fall, so OCR condos won't drop much as for own stay but CCR are for investments will. Big hole in argument here.
I say: OCR condos prices will drop most in next property bust!
[quote=price]
Facing sometimes makes a big difference. Facing a super busy road or highway, vs facing the opposite direction is like night and day. Can be same condo unit, but I will buy the second and not the first. :) I think there are some condos in CCR that are facing the forever busy CTE. Sell for 1000 psf also I think I won't want to touch lor. The noise there ... how to tahan.
thanks everyone, comments appreciated
I think some will drop, others may not. Depends on whether that property was sold mainly to investors (speculators) or as a place to stay. If it is mostly stayed by true HDB upgraders (like me), then it makes no diff whether got recession or not.
On the other hand, if its mostly MM style units, or small 1/2 bedders aimed at speculators... then I think that one will kenna jia lat jia lat.
Give some respect to other segment buyers. Many buy MM because they only eligible to buy that plus cant afford bigger thus make sacrifices to squeeze the family in it. Not all MM buyers are speculators. Dont need to make your point at the expense of others. By now, if you read (read, not just see mind you) the papers properly you should know very well why MM sell well. Its the low quantum and not that it can easily be flipped. 90% at least of people here I believe will choose bigger units if they have the means.
I was just reading all the threads about OCR and CCR gap closing. Anyway, here's my take on it.
To TS, this is your very 1st sentence in the very 1st post. And this statement is wrong. OCR and CCR gap is not closing. Therefore all your subsequent "interpretations" (that you tried to make sense of it), are irrelevant.
Prime remains as prime, mass market remains as mass market. No need to find reasons "why they are converging". They are not.
Real reason of mass market high psf ? many members already explained very nicely. CMs, CPF, herd mentality, Gen Y "I want it now", developer "hellokitty" marketing (I like this word :) ), etc.
And going forward , who will drop most / up most ? Clearly each has his own judgement. You can make you own stand.
And stalingrad, I felt for you ok. ;) I knew you were snubbed by agents in duchess residences (in 2007 he went to DR launch, and all agents TOTALLY ignored him; he felt so insulted), and you have been cursing this project (along with CCR) ever since... and unfortunately, today in 2012 DR psf has reached 2000, more than 2x your carabelle now, from 1.8x one year ago, totally not what you expected. what to do, life is not always a box of chocolate ;)
Agree! :)
No matter what happens, people need a place to stay mah. That's why even if taken by glossy marketing, those people who only have that 1 OCR property which they are staying in, will hold on lah. But if its their second "investment" property, and its a MM unit which cannot be rented out. I think they will let go, and thus, those kind will have greater chance of plummeting...
You seem to have something against MMs? It is at least the 3rd or 4th time that someone trash a particular class of property repeatedly in a span of hours in one single thread, when replying to different persons... I am a MM fan. Maybe you can enlighten me on why it is so disgustingly suc* a purchase decision in todays economic environment? Its good to hear a strong differing view. Thanks in advance...
My theory remains the same. If the place is a place which you won't mind staying in, then its probably still ok. But if you die die always cannot imagine staying in that place, then got problem already.
Yes, personal preference comes into play here. But take MM units for example. I look at a 300 sq feet unit, and under no circumstanes can I imagine myself staying in it. It can be right beside MRT for all I care, I still won't stay in it lor. Thus, if I imagine that most people will feel the same way, then I really question how attractive it is, even as an investment property.
Thus, got some outlying OCR places, really ulu ulu wan. I find it hard to justify as "investment" property because quite clearly, only those people who are used to staying there will find it ok. Most other people, including expats, etc will shun those places.
To answer your question on whether it makes sense to rent out an MM. To a newly arrived foreign talent, budget class hotel one night 70 bucks. Thats 2100 per month. No facilities whatsoever. Less than 5yrs old MM with pool, gym, bbq, car parking if you drive, security, home owners or other professionals as neighbours and not touch and go tourists, 2k per month. Which will you choose? I do agree with you however that MM in outlying areas, particularly those far from areas of commerce and business, will be a question mark as investment. But I believe those who bought that are mostly intending to own stay.
MMs, this lot still has holding power because of the CPF factor. MMs not serviced by CPF will fall drastically, but i believe most are paid thru CPF as this profile is generally cash poor.
I expect all properties to drop, and MMs not serviced with CPF in the heartlands to drop the most. Aggregation here might pull OCR prices down more only if there is a high percentage of non-CPF MMs around, which i again state that i doubt.
.
I saw a report recently and most MM buyers have private addresses. I'm pretty sure most MM investors are not using CPF. I think you're just stereotyping this class of property.
I do agree with you however that MM in outlying areas, particularly those far from areas of commerce and business, will be a question mark as investment. But I believe those who bought that are mostly intending to own stay.
how are ur views on Parc Rosewood then? Good investment choice?
I saw a report recently and most MM buyers have private addresses. I'm pretty sure most MM investors are not using CPF. I think you're just stereotyping this class of property.
if what you say is true, then MMs in ocr are speculative class which will suffer the most when % don't make sense.
how are ur views on Parc Rosewood then? Good investment choice?
For that price/value ratio it is hard to beat. For potential capital gain it again has room to grow. For rental opportunities, that area is tested and not new, at least for apartment class developments, as opposed to say Seletar or Punggol or Sembawang. So I think it is a good buy despite its super ocr location.
if what you say is true, then MMs in ocr are speculative class which will suffer the most when % don't make sense.
Allow me to express my view... I think most of those may be buying it as second property thus not using cpf... As for use, they may buy for their children or to retire in when older... They would love to use cpf if can but current hdb or private already using... With the way the forces may be are clamping down on property investment beyond the 2nd, like the two child policy, people with extra cash are concerned soon maybe even 2nd property also will get discouraged by policy thus better faster buy one and keep first...
Allow me to express my view... I think most of those may be buying it as second property thus not using cpf... As for use, they may buy for their children or to retire in when older... They would love to use cpf if can but current hdb or private already using... With the way the forces may be are clamping down on property investment beyond the 2nd, like the two child policy, people with extra cash are concerned soon maybe even 2nd property also will get discouraged by policy thus better faster buy one and keep first...
thanks bro. i suspect that they still might act the same. There were many during the 1998 and even recent 2008 downturns where locals with 2nd or 3rd properties 2 bdrm and below - when faced with increasingly negative yield - had the mentality that better sell now, stop 'paper' loss, and buy again later.
many of the things happening now, and being discussed here, is not new. we should never forget 1986, 1998, 2001, and 2008.
For the short to medium term, the answer lies in the liquidity profile of purchasers.
OCR has risen because of profits made in HDB (or fully paid up) + condo repayments, still 100% serviced by CPF, and mostly self stay. Even if they have been taken into high PSFs by marketing gimmicks and MMs, this lot still has holding power because of the CPF factor. MMs not serviced by CPF will fall drastically, but i believe most are paid thru CPF as this profile is generally cash poor.
Investment properties in CCR are held by foreign investors who do not stay but rent. The moment % yield from falling rentals or capital depreciation happens, they will let go.
True prime will always be true prime. CCR is just a political demarcation on a map. Novena is not CCR. Newton is Bt Timah. Hillview is not Bt Timah etc etc. Orchard (bounded by grange and cairnhill) and Marina Bay (NOT tanjong pagar) There will always be a cachet for prime living.
Each locale has its own profile of shoppers and thus amenities. Prime residents that frequent Orchard will not want to shop in suburban malls. Heartland residents that frequent suburban malls will find Orchard a waste of money. Hardly does the twain mix.
Confusion arises only because at the moment, there exists a psf price abitrage between prime and heartlands simply because buyers there have been taken in by good marketing.
In the longer term, in every city in the world i travel to, look at or invest in, true prime always will have a large price gap with the heartlands.
I expect all properties to drop, and MMs not serviced with CPF in the heartlands to drop the most. Aggregation here might pull OCR prices down more only if there is a high percentage of non-CPF MMs around, which i again state that i doubt.
If economy crumbles but unemployment rate stays low, OCR will still maintain. If unemployment rate and job insecurity rises above a threshold, then OCR even those for self stay will plummet.
I do agree with your points. But it is safe to use blanket definition that ocr MM not funded with cpf means definitely for investment and not own use? As long as interest rate stay low, even without tenants I believe the owners will still hold on for capital gain potential. Those in real danger will be ocr, untested locale, no new major business or commercial or transport line plans in next 5 years one...
thanks bro. i suspect that they still might act the same. There were many during the 1998 and even recent 2008 downturns where locals with 2nd or 3rd properties 2 bdrm and below - when faced with increasingly negative yield - had the mentality that better sell now, stop 'paper' loss, and buy again later.
many of the things happening now, and being discussed here, is not new. we should never forget 1986, 1998, 2001, and 2008.
Yes. There indeed are valuable lessons we can learn from the past. For small units, due to the easily digestible quantum, I believe gets offloaded first in times of crisis for the following reasons. Smaller capital invested means smaller quantum of loss. Rather sell off the small unit than the big. At least can still fit the whole family. Small units will smaller prices are easier to market and find buyers, plus stamp duty, if within 4yrs ssd, will still be smaller nett amount. Less bruising on the ego.
the problem now is that clever marketing is distorting buyer perception, and thus for the first time since 1997, PSF is all out of whack. The last time this happened was in '85. for e.g. bullion park FH with full reservoir view only 820psf. Thus is being near mrt and in a mixed commercial development worth an additional 500psf? i am thankful that my friend decided 'NO' and went with bullion park for a most excellent unit.
prices are a function of perceived value. when prices are too high for a segment, then that perception is skewed. all economic law dictate that high fluctuations of price-value will always go back to the mean in due course.
for example, in 2006/2007 in the height of the CCR boom, a price-value discrepancy was extremely stark for icon and citylights because they were next to old and forgotten flats. but both had the same or better value fundamentals than many that have risen exponentially.
similarly, citysquare because of the ahneh factor and ridiculously depressed value fundamentals at 450-550psf then.
For that price/value ratio it is hard to beat. For potential capital gain it again has room to grow. For rental opportunities, that area is tested and not new, at least for apartment class developments, as opposed to say Seletar or Punggol or Sembawang. So I think it is a good buy despite its super ocr location.
Hmm yes but rental there is not high ATM. but of course the capital was low to begin with so i'd say a 3-4% yield maybe quite easy. Room for CG is definitely there.
the problem now is that clever marketing is distorting buyer perception, and thus for the first time since 1997, PSF is all out of whack. The last time this happened was in '85. for e.g. bullion park FH with full reservoir view only 820psf. Thus is being near mrt and in a mixed commercial development worth an additional 500psf? i am thankful that my friend decided 'NO' and went with bullion park for a most excellent unit.
prices are a function of perceived value. when prices are too high for a segment, then that perception is skewed. all economic law dictate that high fluctuations of price-value will always go back to the mean in due course.
I do think MM led to distortions in psf price value perceptions. However I dont agree that they are guilty as a class of investment. Its the buyers who are not discerning nor do they due diligence enough. For example, everyone knows more compact and lighter laptops or mobile phones are sure gonna be more expensive. So they dont compare say an Apple macbook air with a regular $900 Dell laptop!
for example, in 2006/2007 in the height of the CCR boom, a price-value discrepancy was extremely stark for icon and citylights because they were next to old and forgotten flats. but both had the same or better value fundamentals than many that have risen exponentially.
similarly, citysquare because of the ahneh factor and ridiculously depressed value fundamentals at 450-550psf then.
Yes I remember pondering over CITY Square residence 570sf studio asking only 468k...!!!!! Arghhhh
Yes I remember pondering over CITY Square residence 570sf studio asking only 468k...!!!!! Arghhhh
It is freehold right? My uncle bought a unit there pre-launch and he sold it off very quickly once the mall was built. :banghead:
I dont feel there's a big grp of investors who rely mostly on CPF for property investment like what gfoo has said. Well, maybe personally i never had much CPF cause of my age. I got my first salaried job less than a year ago :D
Hmm yes but rental there is not high ATM. but of course the capital was low to begin with so i'd say a 3-4% yield maybe quite easy. Room for CG is definitely there.
The only risk is that the area untested for small units rental. But being the first mover, advantage is there to set the bar...
The only risk is that the area untested for small units rental. But being the first mover, advantage is there to set the bar...
I was tempted but it's too far from my place. Not a big time player yet. Still prefer developments that are nearer to my home
I dont feel there's a big grp of investors who rely mostly on CPF for property investment like what gfoo has said. Well, maybe personally i never had much CPF cause of my age. I got my first salaried job less than a year ago :D
I guess his point was that if meant for own stay, usually one will use cpf... And if meant for stay, in times of crisis, without rental income to sustain it, will have higher chance of being deleveraged at below market value to raise money...
I guess his point was that if meant for own stay, usually one will use cpf... And if meant for stay, in times of crisis, without rental income to sustain it, will have higher chance of being deleveraged at below market value to raise money...
okay, i guess i misunderstood
toking abt investment pt of view mah....
btw i stay in ulu D18 hor....wakaka
shdnt mix investment and personal preference tgt
and dun forget the new upcoming MCE hor....whr the expressway leads to from marina bay? hehehe
I thot you said CCR all high end expats especially MBS area? If deep recession, all these expats get fired and go home liao. What will happen to the CCR condos then?
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 14:40
Hee, apologise if I seem to come across as anti-MM. Its just that I not convinced yet that they are a viable investment class (my personal opinion of course).
Others are definitely free to disagree of course. But like I said lor. I can't imagine staying in it, and my sense is that most people generally won't want to stay in such small units. This means that the people who will stay in it is from this other group of people which consists of ... at this point I am not sure who - singles and single expats probably. But even the singles and the expats I know don't seem too keen leh.
So, its not a proven asset at this stage because its a relatively recent trend. We will know better once all the currently launched MMs are in the market for rental.
Now, it can be possible for some people to justify and to want to stay in MM. But for it to be a viable investment, this group of people needs to be large enough to support all the MMs which will be coming on line once construction is completed. Otherwise, we will have a lot of empty MM units.
Maybe its the trend of the future, and all the MM buyers at this stage are ahead of their time. But let's not forget. In Singapore, there is a very clear alternative - the HDB flat. This alternative is not there for Hong Kong. So, if given a choice of where to stay, why would someone choose say a 300 sq feet place over a 1000 sq feet place if both cost the same?
Even for expats, there is the alternative. Share a unit with a friend or just rent one room from a bigger unit. Pricing for one room currently is around 1k for good location? (not sure). So, does it mean that MM units in future will be competing with this pricing?
At 1k or a bit over rental, how many MM will be viable investments?
Hee, apologise if I seem to come across as anti-MM. Its just that I not convinced yet that they are a viable investment class (my personal opinion of course).
Others are definitely free to disagree of course. But like I said lor. I can't imagine staying in it, and my sense is that most people generally won't want to stay in such small units. This means that the people who will stay in it is from this other group of people which consists of ... at this point I am not sure who - singles and single expats probably. But even the singles and the expats I know don't seem too keen leh.
So, its not a proven asset at this stage because its a relatively recent trend. We will know better once all the currently launched MMs are in the market for rental.
Now, it can be possible for some people to justify and to want to stay in MM. But for it to be a viable investment, this group of people needs to be large enough to support all the MMs which will be coming on line once construction is completed. Otherwise, we will have a lot of empty MM units.
Maybe its the trend of the future, and all the MM buyers at this stage are ahead of their time. But let's not forget. In Singapore, there is a very clear alternative - the HDB flat. This alternative is not there for Hong Kong. So, if given a choice of where to stay, why would someone choose say a 300 sq feet place over a 1000 sq feet place if both cost the same?
Even for expats, there is the alternative. Share a unit with a friend or just rent one room from a bigger unit. Pricing for one room currently is around 1k for good location? (not sure). So, does it mean that MM units in future will be competing with this pricing?
At 1k or a bit over rental, how many MM will be viable investments?
Among other types of Apartment rentals there's always been comparison between HDB. Ultimately it depends on each individual and for expats, their budget for lodging.
For now, I feel every quantum has its own property class. Every investor/buyers with different types of profile suits different property class of investment. As the middle income grp is growing in Singapore, there's a huge increase in number of people who have excess hundreds of thousand dollars but at the same time not enough for >million dollar property.
Even for the rich, if i had $2million cash i'd rather buy 4 MMs than a big 2ksqf unit for investment.
with 3xxk - 5xxk, tell me what kind of private living can 1 afford now? MM gives such people an option
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 14:52
To TS, this is your very 1st sentence in the very 1st post. And this statement is wrong. OCR and CCR gap is not closing. Therefore all your subsequent "interpretations" (that you tried to make sense of it), are irrelevant.
Prime remains as prime, mass market remains as mass market. No need to find reasons "why they are converging". They are not.
Real reason of mass market high psf ? many members already explained very nicely. CMs, CPF, herd mentality, Gen Y "I want it now", developer "hellokitty" marketing (I like this word :) ), etc.
And going forward , who will drop most / up most ? Clearly each has his own judgement. You can make you own stand.
And stalingrad, I felt for you ok. ;) I knew you were snubbed by agents in duchess residences (in 2007 he went to DR launch, and all agents TOTALLY ignored him; he felt so insulted), and you have been cursing this project (along with CCR) ever since... and unfortunately, today in 2012 DR psf has reached 2000, more than 2x your carabelle now, from 1.8x one year ago, totally not what you expected. what to do, life is not always a box of chocolate ;)
Well, CCR as a percentage basis hasn't risen as much as some of the hotter OCR regions. So, if one experiences sales plus a higher increase in prices percentage wise, and the other hasn't. Then the gap would have narrowed mah.
Over the last 3 years, some OCR properties went up 50 to 70%. I don't think a lot of CCR has seen such big rises, and some have even seen losses or stagnant. That's why I was saying the gap has narrowed or may be narrowing. :)
devilplate
08-03-12, 15:02
I thot you said CCR all high end expats especially MBS area? If deep recession, all these expats get fired and go home liao. What will happen to the CCR condos then?
Deep recession ALL jobless.....whole ppty px crash!
Hee, apologise if I seem to come across as anti-MM. Its just that I not convinced yet that they are a viable investment class (my personal opinion of course).
Others are definitely free to disagree of course. But like I said lor. I can't imagine staying in it, and my sense is that most people generally won't want to stay in such small units. This means that the people who will stay in it is from this other group of people which consists of ... at this point I am not sure who - singles and single expats probably. But even the singles and the expats I know don't seem too keen leh.
So, its not a proven asset at this stage because its a relatively recent trend. We will know better once all the currently launched MMs are in the market for rental.
Now, it can be possible for some people to justify and to want to stay in MM. But for it to be a viable investment, this group of people needs to be large enough to support all the MMs which will be coming on line once construction is completed. Otherwise, we will have a lot of empty MM units.
Maybe its the trend of the future, and all the MM buyers at this stage are ahead of their time. But let's not forget. In Singapore, there is a very clear alternative - the HDB flat. This alternative is not there for Hong Kong. So, if given a choice of where to stay, why would someone choose say a 300 sq feet place over a 1000 sq feet place if both cost the same?
Even for expats, there is the alternative. Share a unit with a friend or just rent one room from a bigger unit. Pricing for one room currently is around 1k for good location? (not sure). So, does it mean that MM units in future will be competing with this pricing?
At 1k or a bit over rental, how many MM will be viable investments?
I do understand where you are coming from. And you are indeed echoing the sentiments of a large majority of people. WHICH IS WHY I REALLY STILL TILL TODAY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE MM SOLD OUT in unproven locales such as Punggol!!!!! Sorry I shouting because so far really no one has given me a good answer! You can argue those one bedder are SOHO and not MM. But in reality SOHO is one of those gimmicks mentioned by bro gfoo that deceptively packaged and market and sugar coat small units at super high psf somemore in untested location!!! If you say MM is guilty, I would say the madness that SOHO is is ten times more... Recent MM projects like GE still sell out I can understand - due to location and condo status. But MM in Punggol? Really??
devilplate
08-03-12, 15:04
Well, CCR as a percentage basis hasn't risen as much as some of the hotter OCR regions. So, if one experiences sales plus a higher increase in prices percentage wise, and the other hasn't. Then the gap would have narrowed mah.
Over the last 3 years, some OCR properties went up 50 to 70%. I don't think a lot of CCR has seen such big rises, and some have even seen losses or stagnant. That's why I was saying the gap has narrowed or may be narrowing. :)
Y not use 2005 as a reference point?
Ocr is playing catching up now rather den narrowing the gap.....during 05-07, ocr ppty px hardly move!
stalingrad
08-03-12, 15:13
To TS, this is your very 1st sentence in the very 1st post. And this statement is wrong. OCR and CCR gap is not closing. Therefore all your subsequent "interpretations" (that you tried to make sense of it), are irrelevant.
Prime remains as prime, mass market remains as mass market. No need to find reasons "why they are converging". They are not.
Real reason of mass market high psf ? many members already explained very nicely. CMs, CPF, herd mentality, Gen Y "I want it now", developer "hellokitty" marketing (I like this word :) ), etc.
And going forward , who will drop most / up most ? Clearly each has his own judgement. You can make you own stand.
And stalingrad, I felt for you ok. ;) I knew you were snubbed by agents in duchess residences (in 2007 he went to DR launch, and all agents TOTALLY ignored him; he felt so insulted), and you have been cursing this project (along with CCR) ever since... and unfortunately, today in 2012 DR psf has reached 2000, more than 2x your carabelle now, from 1.8x one year ago, totally not what you expected. what to do, life is not always a box of chocolate ;)
that is incorrect. we were not snubbed by agents at DR. It was sold out even before we arrived (what remained were maisonettes). I use DR as the example in many of my posts, to show that the hottest condo of the day may turn out to be your worst purchase.
I do understand where you are coming from. And you are indeed echoing the sentiments of a large majority of people. WHICH IS WHY I REALLY STILL TILL TODAY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE MM SOLD OUT in unproven locales such as Punggol!!!!! Sorry I shouting because so far really no one has given me a good answer! You can argue those one bedder are SOHO and not MM. But in reality SOHO is one of those gimmicks mentioned by bro gfoo that deceptively packaged and market and sugar coat small units at super high psf somemore in untested location!!! If you say MM is guilty, I would say the madness that SOHO is is ten times more... Recent MM projects like GE still sell out I can understand - due to location and condo status. But MM in Punggol? Really??
I recently read an article about Punggol folks being the most rich of all housing estates in Singapore. And highest proportion of highly educated people. I suspect these are the same people buying into the whole Water Town (referring to the long kang whole makeover and not to any specific project) story and more than willing to eat up the 1300psf price tag with spare change for big reno somemore... You know what they say. Rich and smart but not necessarily wise sometimes... Especially most of them are young families which I doubt are seasoned in property investment...
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:16
I do understand where you are coming from. And you are indeed echoing the sentiments of a large majority of people. WHICH IS WHY I REALLY STILL TILL TODAY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE MM SOLD OUT in unproven locales such as Punggol!!!!! Sorry I shouting because so far really no one has given me a good answer! You can argue those one bedder are SOHO and not MM. But in reality SOHO is one of those gimmicks mentioned by bro gfoo that deceptively packaged and market and sugar coat small units at super high psf somemore in untested location!!! If you say MM is guilty, I would say the madness that SOHO is is ten times more... Recent MM projects like GE still sell out I can understand - due to location and condo status. But MM in Punggol? Really??
Ok, I am with you on that. I also don't understand how come MM can sell out in Pungol also. Maybe its just sheer wanting to invest in property, wanting to have a piece of the property action. But give it some time. Remember, the property with the biggest demand now may not necessarily turn out to be the best purchase property wise over the long term.
Property investment is like any other investment. The best deals are when the market is in a big slump and nobody wants to buy. Some of the worst deals may be the ones everyone wants to buy when that segment is super hot.
Don't fret the demand for places like Watertown now lah. Time will tell. :)
I recently read an article about Punggol folks being the most rich of all housing estates in Singapore. And highest proportion of highly educated people. I suspect these are the same people buying into the whole Water Town (referring to the long kang whole makeover and not to any specific project) story and more than willing to eat up the 1300psf price tag with spare change for big reno somemore... You know what they say. Rich and smart but not necessarily wise sometimes... Especially most of them are young families which I doubt are seasoned in property investment...
So for OCR MMs, which are the areas which u see more potential? Parc Rosewood was sold around ur KG launch price right?
I do understand where you are coming from. And you are indeed echoing the sentiments of a large majority of people. WHICH IS WHY I REALLY STILL TILL TODAY CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THE MM SOLD OUT in unproven locales such as Punggol!!!!! Sorry I shouting because so far really no one has given me a good answer! You can argue those one bedder are SOHO and not MM. But in reality SOHO is one of those gimmicks mentioned by bro gfoo that deceptively packaged and market and sugar coat small units at super high psf somemore in untested location!!! If you say MM is guilty, I would say the madness that SOHO is is ten times more... Recent MM projects like GE still sell out I can understand - due to location and condo status. But MM in Punggol? Really??
I think many who bought into GE will be :scared-4: when the time comes. Too compact! And i think the entire area has twice the number of units in Watertown after 2017.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:23
A similar analogy would be tech stocks during the technology bubble boom in 1999. Why people all chiong into internet stocks then? Why buy creative at over 50 dollars? But those people that chiong in then, suffer big losses later.
So for OCR MMs, which are the areas which u see more potential? Parc Rosewood was sold around ur KG launch price right?
I never keep track of PRW pricing... KG at launch smallest unit 366sf lowest floor can be as high as 399k. I dont think anything was sold below 39xk for this project... So none was priced below 1k psf then. Quantum wise it would be similar yes. So in MM game its always about quantum. From 3xxk only! Never fail to make small cap player heart flutter...
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:27
Y not use 2005 as a reference point?
Ocr is playing catching up now rather den narrowing the gap.....during 05-07, ocr ppty px hardly move!
Erm, ok can also. But regardless of whether its OCR playing catch up, or CCR stagnanting, the gap is still narrowing mah. So, my first line in my opening post remains relevant! :)
I think many who bought into GE will be :scared-4: when the time comes. Too compact! And i think the entire area has twice the number of units in Watertown after 2017.
Not to worry. Geylang project way easier to rent out than Punggol any day...
Erm, ok can also. But regardless of whether its OCR playing catch up, or CCR stagnanting, the gap is still narrowing mah. So, my first line in my opening post remains relevant! :)
I suspect price gap indeed narrowing... But in psf terms and not like for like unit (age, amenities, size, wasted space, facilities etc)
I never keep track of PRW pricing... KG at launch smallest unit 366sf lowest floor can be as high as 399k. I dont think anything was sold below 39xk for this project... So none was priced below 1k psf then. Quantum wise it would be similar yes. So in MM game its always about quantum. From 3xxk only! Never fail to make small cap player heart flutter...
Yes like i said previously, it's not so much of the size and location* anymore. More of quantum. People who only have that much money can only look into MMs. These days, a decent 2 bedders start from at least 700k
Given a choice would anyone rent a 500 sq ft 1 bedder in the Clift or a 1001sq ft 2 bedder in Dakota Residences which is just in front of an MRT and 6km to town.
Both at $4.5K a month.
stalingrad
08-03-12, 15:35
Erm, ok can also. But regardless of whether its OCR playing catch up, or CCR stagnanting, the gap is still narrowing mah. So, my first line in my opening post remains relevant! :)
Don't let these guys bully you. And don't be fooled by the transacted prices. There is basically no market for CCR condos. there is only one or two transactions per week in D9, 10 and 11. Condos in those areas need to wait for years to find buyers. Thus, the promulgated prices are not to be trusted.
In contrast, there is a lively market for OCR condos. Thus, the gap between OCR and CCR condos in pricing may actually be bigger than the official statistics suggest.
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:38
Both are pricey if you ask me. Seriously, we need to factor in that Sing dollar has been super strong over the years. Foreign expat now come to Singapore, tell them to pay 4.5k per month is no joke. Not a small amount, whether you convert to USD or Euros.
Given a choice would anyone rent a 500 sq ft 1 bedder in the Clift or a 1001sq ft 2 bedder in Dakota Residences which is just in front of an MRT and 6km to town.
Both at $4.5K a month.
If I can afford to pay that kind of rent I probably earn 12k above. I would be a fussy - ok, sophisticated is a more politically correct term - individual who values class, appeal, and quietness. The last thing I want is noisy kids running around with even louder parents or maids running after them when I need to rest up on weekends. So The Clift. Obviously. Assuming I am single person and not with family.
Given a choice would anyone rent a 500 sq ft 1 bedder in the Clift or a 1001sq ft 2 bedder in Dakota Residences which is just in front of an MRT and 6km to town.
Both at $4.5K a month.
Wow definitely the cliff
Yes like i said previously, it's not so much of the size and location* anymore. More of quantum. People who only have that much money can only look into MMs. These days, a decent 2 bedders start from at least 700k
You forgot Parc Vera...... Both high on bro devil and my recommended list. 637k only... Nearer to town than any of those long kang projects...
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:45
Ok lah. I don't want to come across as a CCR hater. Actually I am not. There will always be a premium for certain prestige addresses. And like it or not, there will also be a premium for places near to the CBD area. But the gap can certainly narrow, due to some of the reasons that have been mentioned. :)
Singapore should not and has never stayed stagnant. It always keep on changing. Thus, I challenge that city fringe should not always stay the same. Our population grew by 1 million! By right, CCR should expand outwards mah.
And OCR hubs are springing up. In time to come, these will command good prices too. They will never compare to CCR because they are not as close to the CBD. But the gap might not be that big. :)
You forgot Parc Vera...... Both high on bro devil and my recommended list. 637k only... Nearer to town than any of those long kang projects...
Oh yes.. Guess Punggol is still a hit for some reason
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:48
If I can afford to pay that kind of rent I probably earn 12k above. I would be a fussy - ok, sophisticated is a more politically correct term - individual who values class, appeal, and quietness. The last thing I want is noisy kids running around with even louder parents or maids running after them when I need to rest up on weekends. So The Clift. Obviously. Assuming I am single person and not with family.
Yep, but bear in mind also, if I earn so much, and I am shelling out 4.5k per month. I might not be happy getting a 1 bedder only. It doesn't matter that I am single or not, because back home, maybe I can get an entire landed bunglow for that kind of money already. Here I get a 1 bedder? Erm, must see people's perspective mah. :)
Since we are comparing... Picture 5yrs down... Espada 355sf MM 5 yrs old well maintained from Novelty, developer known for quality finishing, regular layout stone throw to Orchard shopping belt at 3k vs Watertown just TOP 581sf SOHO loft design pool facing stone throw to PUNGGOL waterway, mins to Airport also 3k... Which you choose?
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:51
In the end, even people with money, want value for their money. The thing is, from their perspective, is paying 4.5k rent per month and getting a 1 bedder value for money? Got service apartments which charge that kind of money, and that means that on top of getting a place, I get a cleaner too...
Yep, but bear in mind also, if I earn so much, and I am shelling out 4.5k per month. I might not be happy getting a 1 bedder only. It doesn't matter that I am single or not, because back home, maybe I can get an entire landed bunglow for that kind of money already. Here I get a 1 bedder? Erm, must see people's perspective mah. :)
I dont deny there are people earning 12k pm yet still very frugal and value conscious... Yes. Heck, in gahmen eyes, they only qualify as sandwich class buy EC only omg omg omg omg omg I must have been sleeping for the longest time...
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:53
Since we are comparing... Picture 5yrs down... Espada 355sf MM 5 yrs old well maintained from Novelty, developer known for quality finishing, regular layout stone throw to Orchard shopping belt at 3k vs Watertown just TOP 581sf SOHO loft design pool facing stone throw to PUNGGOL waterway, mins to Airport also 3k... Which you choose?
In the first place, I am not convinced Pungol watertown can rent out for 3k on a regular basis. I will be happy to be proven wrong when the time comes. But I suspect people that willing to rent WT at 3k when the time comes will be very very very rare...
Eldenfirefly
08-03-12, 15:58
I got a friend, he is expat, and well paid. Income at least 12k if not more. But when he came here to do house hunting for renting, end up he did not get a MM unit. He got a 2 bedder. His budget? 3k per month only...
I got a friend, he is expat, and well paid. Income at least 12k if not more. But when he came here to do house hunting for renting, end up he did not get a MM unit. He got a 2 bedder. His budget? 3k per month only...
Actually one quarter of pay for rental not bad liao la... Mai hum mai hiam... Lol
In the end, even people with money, want value for their money. The thing is, from their perspective, is paying 4.5k rent per month and getting a 1 bedder value for money? Got service apartments which charge that kind of money, and that means that on top of getting a place, I get a cleaner too...
You do have a point there. I agree... Thats why the sweet spot number for MM projects to justify as worthwhile investment is around 2k fetchable rent. No? So to have that as reasonable yield, working backwards will be around below 550k purchase price ba...
In the first place, I am not convinced Pungol watertown can rent out for 3k on a regular basis. I will be happy to be proven wrong when the time comes. But I suspect people that willing to rent WT at 3k when the time comes will be very very very rare...
If $3k not possible, maybe at $2k is possible on regular basis...
My take is that good locations (besides MRT, amenities etc) will be in a much stronger position to find rental in good and bad market. Those in ulu locations will be vacant in a bad market.
You do have a point there. I agree... Thats why the sweet spot number for MM projects to justify as worthwhile investment is around 2k fetchable rent. No? So to have that as reasonable yield, working backwards will be around below 550k purchase price ba...
Huatttt ah! All the 3xx-4xxk PRW purchasers
If $3k not possible, maybe at $2k is possible on regular basis...
My take is that good locations (besides MRT, amenities etc) will be in a much stronger position to find rental in good and bad market. Those in ulu locations will be vacant in a bad market.
Good day! hope ur not :simmering: anymore
Good day! hope ur not :simmering: anymore
haha... irritated is not equal to :simmering:...
:luke-and-darth:
haha... irritated is not equal to :simmering:...
Jonathan0503
08-03-12, 16:17
Given a choice would anyone rent a 500 sq ft 1 bedder in the Clift or a 1001sq ft 2 bedder in Dakota Residences which is just in front of an MRT and 6km to town.
Both at $4.5K a month.
I will choose the clift if I am single, works in CBD and loves city living.
So, different people, different preference depending on their needs
since we're on the subject of developments in the NE region, how about FEO's boathouse that is going between $850-1000psf?
anyone care to comment?
since we're on the subject of developments in the NE region, how about FEO's boathouse that is going between $850-1000psf?
anyone care to comment?
I'd rather buy Riversound. Better landscaping, pricing, location.
If I can afford to pay that kind of rent I probably earn 12k above. I would be a fussy - ok, sophisticated is a more politically correct term - individual who values class, appeal, and quietness. The last thing I want is noisy kids running around with even louder parents or maids running after them when I need to rest up on weekends. So The Clift. Obviously. Assuming I am single person and not with family.
If u look at it that way.
But staying slightly away from the CBD would still give you more space IMO.
But to each his own :cheers4:
i recently met a guy who is the 2nd most senior in a developer company. We shared views on many things, and of course i took the opportunity to ask him on his view on regional and sg ppty.
Not possible to summarise everything here, but one of his key view is "don't buy 1 bedder, buy at least a 2 bedder."
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