View Full Version : Home prices go up, but sizes go down
http://www.straitstimes.com/Money/Story/STIStory_765333.html
Home prices go up, but sizes go down
Published on Feb 11, 2012
By Esther Teo, Property Reporter
THE prices keep going up but the median size of private homes has been rapidly shrinking as home buyers try to stretch their dollar further.
Developers are driving the trend as they downsize homes to keep them affordable even though the prices per sq ft (psf) have been increasing.
The shrinkage has been marked with the median size of all new homes sold last year falling to 904 sq ft - 26 per cent less than the median 1,216 sq ft just two years ago, according to an analysis by consultancy CBRE of caveats lodged.
Experts add that a typical three-bedroom unit has been whittled down from about 1,100 sq ft to 1,300 sq ft five years ago to about 1,000 sq ft.
Shoebox apartments of 500 sq ft and less are also likely to have brought the median home size down as they have been gaining in popularity in recent years.
They usually go for under $1 million and attract mostly investors.
Sales of such units have shot up from 300 in 2008 to 1,900 in 2010, or from 6 per cent to 12 per cent of developers' sales over the same period.
Mr Colin Tan, research head at Chesterton Suntec International, said it is 'alarming' to note that half of all new homes sold last year were 904 sq ft or smaller.
'Unless all of these units are popular due to lifestyle changes...the data reflects how much damage has been inflicted on our physical real estate by high property prices,' he added.
'I expect average sizes of sold units to continue getting progressively smaller as long as market price levels remain high.'
Big units are also likely to command a premium in the longer term as there will be fewer of them, Mr Tan noted.
Mr Ong Teck Hui, head of research and consultancy at Credo Real Estate, said there has been a definite trend towards smaller units, especially in recent years.
In 2005, units up to 1,076 sq ft comprised 35 per cent of new private home sales, but last year that figure jumped to 65 per cent.
Affordability is a major factor in the shrinking of floor areas, he said, with home prices surging 74 per cent from 2005 to last year.
'Back in 2005, one could buy a new 1,100 sq ft to 1,200 sq ft three-bedroom suburban condo for $500 psf to $600 psf. Today's rate for a comparable unit would generally be upwards of $900 psf, making bigger floor areas less affordable than before,' Mr Ong noted.
Mr Tan Kok Keong, OrangeTee's head of research and consultancy, said lifestyle changes, like more singles choosing to live on their own, could have led to smaller homes.
'But the trend of shrinking homes might be reversed if property prices fall, allowing developers to build larger homes instead while keeping overall prices steady,' he added.
He noted that the median of 904 sq ft is just slightly smaller than a four-bedroom Housing Board (HDB) flat, which is usually 90 sq m to 95 sq m - or between 969 sq ft and 1,023 sq ft.
Private home sizes cannot keep getting smaller as there is a limit to how much home buyers, such as HDB upgraders, might be willing to trade size for private condo amenities, he said.
Home values have been generally rising on the back of the property market's recovery from the global financial crisis in 2009.
Median prices reached $1,194 psf in 2010 before dipping slightly to $1,125 psf last year, possibly due to an increased number of suburban homes sold compared with those sold in 2010.
But while the number of new homes sales in 2010 and last year exceeded the number in the previous record year of 2007, they were well below the total transaction value of $24.5 billion in 2007.
Experts say this is because 2007 was a year when the high-end and luxury market peaked and thousands of expensive homes in districts 9, 10 and 11 were snapped up.
On the other hand, it was the mass-market segment, with typically lower quantums, that powered the property market in the past two years.
All these patterns.. learn from HDB lor... citing lesser people living in falt mah. So per pax per sf living space still more !
Ha.. but wonder hold water ?
IMHO.. more for maximum profit ... to reap the cash cow.. :beats-me-man:
orangeroad80
14-02-12, 23:59
Developers gets richer. That is why Far East owners are easily the richest family in Singapore.
Last time developers built small small units because of genuine lifestyle preferences. Now developers built small small units to overcome the high cost of property prices. The rental market for MM units will be severely hit when these units all become available in the market... :scared-3:
that is why more people go landed....
condo getting smaller and smaller.
that is why more people go landed....
condo getting smaller and smaller.Next time landed also become smaller and smaller... Lol! I've seen less than 1000 sqft land area for landed properties... Wow! :scared-4:
that is why more people go landed....
condo getting smaller and smaller.
its a land grab now. ppl try to grab if they can afford a piece. but landed comes with its own set of problem. I think better to go get a old bigger unit if possible and use for own stay for long term.
Already happened in some cluster housings with small per floor area together with circulation and even internal lift which are not so useable. This is what we call compact living. Singapore has and will become a vertical and compact city.
Next time landed also become smaller and smaller... Lol! I've seen less than 1000 sqft land area for landed properties... Wow! :scared-4:
at 1300-1500+psf for small units at Watertown, I dont understand why people dont buy dleedon 1 bedroom? so much more worth it right???
at 1300-1500+psf for small units at Watertown, I dont understand why people dont buy dleedon 1 bedroom? so much more worth it right???
the buyers in this forum only pay 9xx-10xxpsf
If it is really from 13xxpsf, i do not think they will buy
the buyers in this forum only pay 9xx-10xxpsf
If it is really from 13xxpsf, i do not think they will buy
What type of units did they buy? big units? or those with a lot of patio and bif balcony?
.. learn from HDB lor... citing lesser people living in falt mah.
It's not that.
if we want to blunt, it simply means the newer generation of condo buyers are not richer than the past generation. they simply cannot afford a decent sized apartment, but they must want one. Developers see this and profit from it. All these "SOHO", "Suites" are simply b**sh** gimmicks.
I would have thought SOHO and loft units are hip...climb ladder to go sleep...
But not happening for when one is older...
It's not that.
if we want to blunt, it simply means the newer generation of condo buyers are not richer than the past generation. they simply cannot afford a decent sized apartment, but they must want one. Developers see this and profit from it. All these "SOHO", "Suites" are simply b**sh** gimmicks.
What type of units did they buy? big units? or those with a lot of patio and bif balcony?
all standard non ground flr units. 1/2 bedder during preview launch
Someone paid 10xxpsf for a 4bedder high floor partial waterway view unit
maybe you should browse through the thread and see for yourself
It's not that.
if we want to blunt, it simply means the newer generation of condo buyers are not richer than the past generation. they simply cannot afford a decent sized apartment, but they must want one. Developers see this and profit from it. All these "SOHO", "Suites" are simply b**sh** gimmicks.
I think it is due to 40% downpayment instead of 10-20% previously. Budget shrinks significantly by half effectively
As a result, buyers are forced to down 40% which significantly reduce the monthly installment and hence stronger holding power?
all standard non ground flr units. 1/2 bedder during preview launch
Someone paid 10xxpsf for a 4bedder high floor partial waterway view unit
maybe you should browse through the thread and see for yourselfCan get FH units closer to city for such big units at $10xx psf... :confused:
Can get FH units closer to city for such big units at $10xx psf... :confused:
yes. and i personally do not see much upside in capital appreciation to enter the market now unless price corrects by 15-20%
Can get FH units closer to city for such big units at $10xx psf... :confused:
if we are purely talking about psf, there are FH projects around Dleedon selling for similar psf too
yes. and i personally do not see much upside in capital appreciation to enter the market now unless price corrects by 15-20%People have been projecting 10% or more price correction since Dec 2011 but prices have been rather stead since... hmmm..
if we are purely talking about psf, there are FH projects around Dleedon selling for similar psf tooThere might be an unspoken trend to move away from city area coz more and more people prefer quietness and serenity away from the busyness of city lifestyles. Wait till these so called quiet places also become buzzing with activities... then they'll move to Pulau Ubin... :cheers5:
Neighbourhood estates are getting crowded on both weekdays and weekends with the surge in population in Singapore in the last few years. It is relatively quieter in the city ie, Shenton way area, on weekend as compared to satellites town. So, not bad to stay in this part of the city on weekend.
There might be an unspoken trend to move away from city area coz more and more people prefer quietness and serenity away from the busyness of city lifestyles. Wait till these so called quiet places also become buzzing with activities... then they'll move to Pulau Ubin... :cheers5:
...trend to move away from city area coz more and more people prefer quietness and serenity away from the busyness of city lifestyles.
not at all. many real prime areas are really quiet, peaceful, in fact, "exclusive". Many of these new OCR hot projects are the total opposite in terms of both human density and serenity. Do you call Watertown a "quiet, serene" place ?
The real reason for the OCR new launch boom is very obvious..
all standard non ground flr units. 1/2 bedder during preview launch
Someone paid 10xxpsf for a 4bedder high floor partial waterway view unit
maybe you should browse through the thread and see for yourself
Then how come newspaper say 1300 psf to 1500 psf
Jonathan0503
15-02-12, 17:00
not at all. many real prime areas are really quiet, peaceful, in fact, "exclusive". Many of these new OCR hot projects are the total opposite in terms of both human density and serenity. Do you call Watertown a "quiet, serene" place ?
The real reason for the OCR new launch boom is very obvious..
Totally agree.
Try walking around some of condos at orchard and you will appreciate how peaceful and quiet they are.
Totally agree.
Try walking around some of condos at orchard and you will appreciate how peaceful and quiet they are.
Nassim bestest.. eerily quiet.
Neighbourhood estates are getting crowded on both weekdays and weekends with the surge in population in Singapore in the last few years. It is relatively quieter in the city ie, Shenton way area, on weekend as compared to satellites town. So, not bad to stay in this part of the city on weekend.Hmmm... 2 days out of 7 will be quieter then... :rolleyes:
not at all. many real prime areas are really quiet, peaceful, in fact, "exclusive". Many of these new OCR hot projects are the total opposite in terms of both human density and serenity. Do you call Watertown a "quiet, serene" place ?
The real reason for the OCR new launch boom is very obvious..WT is not that quiet or serene but in general, Punggol has a lower population density than many other towns in Singapore such as Hougang, Seng Kang, Bedok and Tampines... that was what I meant... :o
River valley road... from jervois side all the way to Rivergate also damn quiet.... killiney also quiet.... actually the whole of district 9 10 11 excluding the shopping mall at orchard all quite quiet....
if you go to dempsey and holland village you can see that there are people but not too crowded, just nice...
stalingrad
15-02-12, 20:28
not at all. many real prime areas are really quiet, peaceful, in fact, "exclusive". Many of these new OCR hot projects are the total opposite in terms of both human density and serenity. Do you call Watertown a "quiet, serene" place ?
The real reason for the OCR new launch boom is very obvious..
come come, don't lie and exaggerate. I was having dinner at UE square on Friday night. it was so noisy I couldn't hear myself think. My wife kept asking me why I kept shouting at her. I said "I am shouting at you so I know what I am saying."
I understand that UE square area is even noisier on Saturday night.
Don't get me started about orchard road on week days and weekends. It is noisy and it is a soup of chemical carcinogens.
Some areas in CCR are not noisy, like Nassim, but not all.
so, you are welcome to argue, but don't lie.
stalingrad
15-02-12, 20:31
by the way, the way OCR homes prices are skyrocketing while CCR prices are stagnating is exactly what I predicted one year ago. Like Jeremy lin, I was brushed aside, laughed at and snickered at, but now I have been proven right.
come come, don't lie and exaggerate. I was having dinner at UE square on Friday night. it was so noisy I couldn't hear myself think. My wife kept asking me why I kept shouting at her. I said "I am shouting at you so I know what I am saying."
I understand that UE square area is even noisier on Saturday night.
Don't get me started about orchard road on week days and weekends. It is noisy and it is a soup of chemical carcinogens.
Some areas in CCR are not noisy, like Nassim, but not all.
so, you are welcome to argue, but don't lie.
The "happening" areas on Fri and weekends are very noisy. RG along the riverside is one of the worse with many teens drinking at the bridges are tons of people in the area. But on contrary I still prefer crowded areas then dead quiet places haha
Its a lifestyle choice... some prefer noise while others quietness. I'd opt for quieter environment for homestay and go to noisy places if I so decide to have a bit more decibels... The converse is slightly more unachievable... :rolleyes:
Why on earth you need to go so far away to UE Square for dinner? Didn't that answer your question why some places are definitely worth much more than your place at Crapbelle even if they are noisy? Around your place got no nice place for dinner right? :o
And fact is, many roads in CCR housing estates are less crowded than those OCR (unless you are talking about the shopping street like Orchard Road) :D
Don't you know that the beauty of a valuable place is to be in a seemingly quiet environment around and yet walk 5 or less minutes can reach the busiest shopping and dinning area in Singapore? A place where no tourist would dare to say they haven't been there when they say they visited Singapore? Does that answer your question why some condos near Orchard has the highest $PSF in whole of Singapore? :p
come come, don't lie and exaggerate. I was having dinner at UE square on Friday night. it was so noisy I couldn't hear myself think. My wife kept asking me why I kept shouting at her. I said "I am shouting at you so I know what I am saying."
I understand that UE square area is even noisier on Saturday night.
Don't get me started about orchard road on week days and weekends. It is noisy and it is a soup of chemical carcinogens.
Some areas in CCR are not noisy, like Nassim, but not all.
so, you are welcome to argue, but don't lie.
stalingrad
15-02-12, 20:51
Why on earth you need to go so far away to UE Square for dinner? Didn't that answer your question why some places are definitely worth much more than your place at Crapbelle even if they are noisy? Around your place got no nice place for dinner right? :o
And fact is, many roads in CCR housing estates are less crowded than those OCR (unless you are talking about the shopping street like Orchard Road) :D
we dined at UE square not because we liked to. We were trapped in traffic that did not move one inch for half a hour. We gave up, and just parked the car at UE square and sat down and Ja bon.
that tells you how horrible it is to live in UE holland area. You can't even move around in your car.
I hope my reply shut you up. somehow, I know it will not.
Stalingrad my friend, u can continue using your foul words, but your duchess residences will never be 1000 psf. It's now officially twice as expensive as ur carabelle, from 2010's 1.8 times ;) You predicted nothing. You secretly hoped for a drop, it didn't happen.
To others, honestly the household density in the heartland is a few times that of prime area. Save for some traditional pte estates like upper bt timah, the HDB towns are far densely populated by design.
OCR price boom is simply a quantum game. High psf but small quantum. Still everything below 1.5m mostly. Many borderline investors are lured into this " I can afford a condo too" phenomenon. Unscrupulous developers had successfully tricked many who otherwise do not have the means into "pty investment". The real wealthy investors, the traditional top 20%, had all stayed at the sideline, or doing something else. Whereas this new found group of "pty investors" are happily dreaming their 1st investment pty to become their first pot of gold. it's rather sad to see the gov's measures having such unintended effects. If this thing turns bad, ( which I really hope it won't), this group is not your traditional group of pty investors that can sustain a 500k loss without losing an arm or leg. Many would have a substantial part of their life savings tied to a fixed asset.
we dined at UE square not because we liked to. We were trapped in traffic that did not move one inch for half a hour. We gave up, and just parked the car at UE square and sat down and Ja bon.
that tells you how horrible it is to live in UE holland area. You can't even move around in your car.
I hope my reply shut you up. somehow, I know it will not.
whenever people press you, you will comment that traffic is bad lol...
I think we should be honest about it..... if really like CCR but cannot afford then just say it.... say that you are working towards it... no shame in that... all of us are aiming to upgrade our lifestyle..
UE sq is noisy coz there are commercial units below....
Compare to the heartland, one whole town only one mall....
all will congregate there on weekends... and the plot ratio of HDBs are like 4.6? 4.8? so there is your answer....
I really look forward to the day that I can see more mellowed and refined posts from you... and hope your dream for a CCR condo comes true... all the best...
stalingrad
16-02-12, 06:52
whenever people press you, you will comment that traffic is bad lol...
I think we should be honest about it..... if really like CCR but cannot afford then just say it.... say that you are working towards it... no shame in that... all of us are aiming to upgrade our lifestyle..
UE sq is noisy coz there are commercial units below....
Compare to the heartland, one whole town only one mall....
all will congregate there on weekends... and the plot ratio of HDBs are like 4.6? 4.8? so there is your answer....
I really look forward to the day that I can see more mellowed and refined posts from you... and hope your dream for a CCR condo comes true... all the best...
tse tse, don't use that condescending tone on me. We don't need to live in CCR. If we move to CCR, we would be away from work, schools, and stuff. that is the beauty about living in OCR, close to work, schools, parks, and away from traffic and noise.
You CCR guys are doing the same thing you were doing one, two or three years ago. When losing a debate, attribute to us the tactic of "wanting CCR properties and trying to talk it down". you are totally wrong. and we don't really care what you do. the fact of the matter is CCR properties are dead, and you know it.
stalingrad
16-02-12, 06:54
Stalingrad my friend, u can continue using your foul words, but your duchess residences will never be 1000 psf. It's now officially twice as expensive as ur carabelle, from 2010's 1.8 times ;) You predicted nothing. You secretly hoped for a drop, it didn't happen.
To others, honestly the household density in the heartland is a few times that of prime area. Save for some traditional pte estates like upper bt timah, the HDB towns are far densely populated by design.
OCR price boom is simply a quantum game. High psf but small quantum. Still everything below 1.5m mostly. Many borderline investors are lured into this " I can afford a condo too" phenomenon. Unscrupulous developers had successfully tricked many who otherwise do not have the means into "pty investment". The real wealthy investors, the traditional top 20%, had all stayed at the sideline, or doing something else. Whereas this new found group of "pty investors" are happily dreaming their 1st investment pty to become their first pot of gold. it's rather sad to see the gov's measures having such unintended effects. If this thing turns bad, ( which I really hope it won't), this group is not your traditional group of pty investors that can sustain a 500k loss without losing an arm or leg. Many would have a substantial part of their life savings tied to a fixed asset.
so heartlanders can't afford to lose half a million but you guys can afford to lose 1 million?
Weekdayworking or at least get some of mind on weekends. Punggol population may not be large but malls do attract people from all over the country. That is the problem. Look at NEX.
Hmmm... 2 days out of 7 will be quieter then... :rolleyes:
just collected my new baby yesterday
3 bedrooms, abont 1300+ sq ft, and the rooms are so so so small....
now 3 bedders are about 1000 sq ft...
I think should buy older projects, bigger rooms, more space..and better bargain..
Jonathan0503
16-02-12, 08:10
we dined at UE square not because we liked to. We were trapped in traffic that did not move one inch for half a hour. We gave up, and just parked the car at UE square and sat down and Ja bon.
that tells you how horrible it is to live in UE holland area. You can't even move around in your car.
I hope my reply shut you up. somehow, I know it will not.
But if you were to live in that area, you don't even need to drive and get caught in the jam right?
just collected my new baby yesterday
3 bedrooms, abont 1300+ sq ft, and the rooms are so so so small....
now 3 bedders are about 1000 sq ft...
I think should buy older projects, bigger rooms, more space..and better bargain..
Congrats! Wheres you new baby? :D :D :D
stalingrad
16-02-12, 08:56
But if you were to live in that area, you don't even need to drive and get caught in the jam right?
yes, we would be trapped in our apartment there and be a monk or nun, because the moment you stepped out, you would be trapped in traffic.
tse tse, don't use that condescending tone on me. We don't need to live in CCR. If we move to CCR, we would be away from work, schools, and stuff. that is the beauty about living in OCR, close to work, schools, parks, and away from traffic and noise.
You CCR guys are doing the same thing you were doing one, two or three years ago. When losing a debate, attribute to us the tactic of "wanting CCR properties and trying to talk it down". you are totally wrong. and we don't really care what you do. the fact of the matter is CCR properties are dead, and you know it.
CCR is away from schools parks and stuff?
Live in Tanglin, Holland V, Bukit Timah, Nassim, River Valley, Newton......
All these are away from schools? you mean away from good schools?
As for Parks I thought there is a big Botanic Garden plonk right in the middle of CCR? and with a Bukit Timah hill connecting to Macritchie Reservior how about Labrador Park that stretches all the way to Vivo City and also Mount Faber to the north?
Carabelle not traffic noise? I thought you are just beside the busiest expressway AYE?
As for my condescending tone... I am just taking the lead from all your previous posts..... I am trying to learn your cultured style from you....
the fact of the matter is CCR properties are dead, and you know it.
That's your wish.
This is fact, and you knew it:
DUCHESS RESIDENCES 3,250,000 2,013 Jan-12
CARABELLE 988,000 Strata 1,043 Sep-11
the one CCR project that snubs you the most, is now officially 2 times more expensive than yours in psf, 2.5 to 3 times more expensive in quantum.
Really that bad? but then that serves you right, right? Who ask you to go to UE Square or need to drive pass there and get stuck in the traffic jam? Who ask you don't live around UE Square and you can just walk there to have a nice dinner without being stuck in a traffic jam? UE Holland area is also horrible for people who don't live there and still want to go there and need to drive there! It is a paradise for people living nearby with all the crowds, the food, the malls within walking distance to their homes! :p
You should stay around within 1km of your nice Crapbelle where there is absolute serenity, quietness, nice park, enjoy the nice food and sip wine / coffee and you won't be complaining here! Ops! I forgot there is nothing nice around your "nice" Crapbelle! :doh:
we dined at UE square not because we liked to. We were trapped in traffic that did not move one inch for half a hour. We gave up, and just parked the car at UE square and sat down and Ja bon.
that tells you how horrible it is to live in UE holland area. You can't even move around in your car.
I hope my reply shut you up. somehow, I know it will not.
just collected my new baby yesterday
3 bedrooms, abont 1300+ sq ft, and the rooms are so so so small....
now 3 bedders are about 1000 sq ft...
I think should buy older projects, bigger rooms, more space..and better bargain..1300+ sq ft for 3 bedder is quite decent. Why are the rooms so so so small?
1300+ sq ft for 3 bedder is quite decent. Why are the rooms so so so small?
I agree. Even my HDB 1100+ sq ft with 3 beds has good size rooms (can fit 2 people each room), living/dining area which can be partitioned, walk-in storeroom and kitchen with room to put in a small breakfast table. So 1300+ should be able to accomodate extra bathroom, utility/maid room. Should be considered quite a standard size for 3 BR.
1300+ sq ft for 3 bedder is quite decent. Why are the rooms so so so small?
You have to look at things from old timer's perspective... a 3bd used to be at least 14xx sqft *without* balconies, bay windows, etc. the feeling is very different when you walk into these new 13xx sqft units. you feel it's at least 20% smaller.
You have to look at things from old timer's perspective... a 3bd used to be at least 14xx sqft *without* balconies, bay windows, etc. the feeling is very different when you walk into these new 13xx sqft units. you feel it's at least 20% smaller.Good point... ok... just like moving from landed into a 2 bedder condo... Lol! :o
Those old times 1400sf without balconies are slowly becoming extinct by way of redevelopment.
If govt continue to squeeze developers, developers will continue to squeeze buyers so such big units w/o balconies and baywindows will be extinct. Then there is that glimmer of hope when baywindows are done away already... hmmm... maybe just maybe such units will return again once MM units reach saturation point and demands for big units goes up... :cheers1:
(almost) every HDB household's dream is to upgrade to condo.
to allow that to happen, condo must be affordable in quantum. therefore it has to be small. there is no turning back. the median monthly income of SG families is about 7-8k. developers will work on this budget. in a few yrs time 40% of singaporeans will be living in condos. condo will no longer be for the top 20%.
however there will always be a niche market for the top 20% where size still matters.
(almost) every HDB household's dream is to upgrade to condo.
to allow that to happen, condo must be affordable in quantum. therefore it has to be small. there is no turning back. the median monthly income of SG families is about 7-8k. developers will work on this budget. in a few yrs time 40% of singaporeans will be living in condos. condo will no longer be for the top 20%.
however there will always be a niche market for the top 20% where size still matters.now below $10k household income can move into HDB. Govt is just adjusting this to ensure that HDB flats remain affordable... if people earn $4k a month and complain HDB flats are too expensive, then their classic reply is 'just stay in 3 room HDB' instead of bigger units. But many people forgot that the prices have indeed risen and the increased income ceiling inevitably covers that rise... :scared-2:
But everyone suffers coz the psf average rises with these 'affordable small format' condos.
(almost) every HDB household's dream is to upgrade to condo.
to allow that to happen, condo must be affordable in quantum. therefore it has to be small. there is no turning back. the median monthly income of SG families is about 7-8k. developers will work on this budget. in a few yrs time 40% of singaporeans will be living in condos. condo will no longer be for the top 20%.
however there will always be a niche market for the top 20% where size still matters.
just collected my new baby yesterday
3 bedrooms, abont 1300+ sq ft, and the rooms are so so so small....
now 3 bedders are about 1000 sq ft...
I think should buy older projects, bigger rooms, more space..and better bargain..
think about a 800 sqft 3 bedrooms....:doh::doh::doh:
now below $10k household income can move into HDB. Govt is just adjusting this to ensure that HDB flats remain affordable... if people earn $4k a month and complain HDB flats are too expensive, then their classic reply is 'just stay in 3 room HDB' instead of bigger units. But many people forgot that the prices have indeed risen and the increased income ceiling inevitably covers that rise... :scared-2:
i am of the view that the higher the income ceiling, the more likely EC prices will rise and consequently DBSS through the trickle down effect.
think about a 800 sqft 3 bedrooms....:doh::doh::doh:
ya man like Hong Kong...
Gahmen should take away balcony and aircon ledges and include them in the calculation of GFA... then we will get proper living spaces
ya man like Hong Kong...
Gahmen should take away balcony and aircon ledges and include them in the calculation of GFA... then we will get proper living spaces
really? my thoughts is developers as a whole will still built balcony and aircon ledges, and then livable spaces will become reduced.
You have to look at things from old timer's perspective... a 3bd used to be at least 14xx sqft *without* balconies, bay windows, etc. the feeling is very different when you walk into these new 13xx sqft units. you feel it's at least 20% smaller.
Balcony takes up 10%...
And if our friend just took over his baby then prob it is build 3-4 years ago... so it will have bay windows, big aircon ledges and planter boxes...
Total about another 10%...
So total about 20% of space gone... 1300-20% = 1040
1300+ sq ft for 3 bedder is quite decent. Why are the rooms so so so small?
When I started buying properties >20 years back, the 3 bedders was 1700 sqft..I think this is the right size
five years back, was 1500 sqft...
three years back was 1300 sq ft
now 1100sqft
soon will be 900 sqft
Shall go to Malaysia, I was nego for a beach front unit, 4 bedrooms, 4900 sqft...
When I started buying properties >20 years back, the 3 bedders was 1700 sqft..I think this is the right size
five years back, was 1500 sqft...
three years back was 1300 sq ft
now 1100sqft
soon will be 900 sqft
Shall go to Malaysia, I was nego for a beach front unit, 4 bedrooms, 4900 sqft...
That size is befitting of the title sky villa! Each room can put one snooker table.
really? my thoughts is developers as a whole will still built balcony and aircon ledges, and then livable spaces will become reduced.
Why will the developers do that when they know buyers want livable space? Do you know why they are building all these useless stuff?
i think balcony spaces are livable if they are not narrow like planters. in fact they are rather nice and flexible spaces to have.
but the main issue is that balcony space is often created At the Expense of bedroom space, which is more necessary than balcony space. it is a luxury that small spaces can ill-afford.
Why will the developers do that when they know buyers want livable space? Do you know why they are building all these useless stuff?
why are they building all the useless stuff ?
not because of the free GFA. it is because buyers are willing to pay for the useless stuff.
so if URA remove free GFA, buyers are already conditioned to pay for the useless stuff. do you think developers want to reduce margins?
they should reduce aircon ledge sizes. most condos need 2, at most 3 condensers. why on earth do we need BIG spaces for those few condensers.
why are they building all the useless stuff ?
not because of the free GFA. it is because buyers are willing to pay for the useless stuff.
so if URA remove free GFA, buyers are already conditioned to pay for the useless stuff. do you think developers want to reduce margins?
I think you dont understand what is free GFA.... if not free GFA for balcony air con ledges no developers will build them
I think you dont understand what is free GFA.... if not free GFA for balcony air con ledges no developers will build them
Is this FREE to developers but not FREE to buyers? :confused: meaning that buyers have to pay for the GFA which the developer did not have to pay for.
They should enforce that developers declare the GFA efficiency ratio. So people will know how much they are paying for usable space.
Smaller and smaller... why?
Simple - more and more and more people are coming to live in the same small island city.
So, either have to build higher and higher or/and smaller and smaller.
Smaller and smaller neber mind, more and more expensive every year too.
This year world no 9th most expensive...
Obviously those decision-makers living in huge bungalows in exclusive hoods, wont really understand la. :scared-2:
But no point whining in Singapore - just work smarter, save more and invest wisely!
:47:
orangeroad80
16-02-12, 23:40
If you have not known, there are already quite a number of condo 3 bedrooms are 900 sq and below ... the trend has started....
More and more like hong kong. Terrible.
Developers are the winners eventually. No wonder top 10 richest ppl in singapore, most of them are in property business.
When I started buying properties >20 years back, the 3 bedders was 1700 sqft..I think this is the right size
five years back, was 1500 sqft...
three years back was 1300 sq ft
now 1100sqft
soon will be 900 sqft
Shall go to Malaysia, I was nego for a beach front unit, 4 bedrooms, 4900 sqft...
Balconies, including planter boxes less than 1 m width in balconies qualify for addtional 10% GFA bonus.
Aircon ledges less than 1m in width exempt from GFA. So developers build less than 1m width but long ledges.
Bay windows used to be GFA exempt, but no longer qualify for exemption since 7 Oct 2008. That's why developers removed them.
And yes, developers charge you for them and use the GFA exemption to build more units.
URA's exemption intent is to encourage greener buildings, vertical wise, in this otherwise concrete jungle.
(almost) every HDB household's dream is to upgrade to condo.
to allow that to happen, condo must be affordable in quantum. therefore it has to be small. there is no turning back. the median monthly income of SG families is about 7-8k. developers will work on this budget. in a few yrs time 40% of singaporeans will be living in condos. condo will no longer be for the top 20%.
however there will always be a niche market for the top 20% where size still matters.
That's why buy big units if can afford now. Next time it will be in demand from these MM upgraders.:)
just collected my new baby yesterday
3 bedrooms, abont 1300+ sq ft, and the rooms are so so so small....
now 3 bedders are about 1000 sq ft...
I think should buy older projects, bigger rooms, more space..and better bargain..
Mate, I know exactly how you feel...
We were so looking forward to our first PC... it was a big shock to us too when we collected the keys to our 3Br about 1200sft in 2009!
Most of our furniture from our old HDB could not fit!.. talk about huge balcony, planters, bay-windows, etc! :banghead:
After a couple of years, it was enough... we moved to an older property in the suburbs, about 1500sft full liveable space (with unblocked, fantastic view to boot!)... and promptly rented out that property! :D
Till now, I still cannot comprehend how some couples or couples with family could live in MMs! :doh:
... but Congrats anyway, hope you enjoy your new baby!
:47:
If you have not known, there are already quite a number of condo 3 bedrooms are 900 sq and below ... the trend has started....
More and more like hong kong. Terrible.
Developers are the winners eventually. No wonder top 10 richest ppl in singapore, most of them are in property business.
It is such a regressive and regrettable trend - infinitely lowers the overall quality of life for many.
There will be big social costs and mounting unhappiness for years to come.
:47:
I think you dont understand what is free GFA.... if not free GFA for balcony air con ledges no developers will build them
as chiaberry commented
Is this FREE to developers but not FREE to buyers? :confused: meaning that buyers have to pay for the GFA which the developer did not have to pay for.
free GFA is free to developers but the developer sell to you the free GFA.
Are you willing to pay for the free-to-developers balcony and a/c ledge?
if you have bought a condo in recent times, yes you are willing to pay like so many others.
and if URA remove the free GFA, unit size will be smaller, developer will still build balcony and a/c ledge, hence livable space will even be smaller.
afterall, if every developers collude, then buyers have no choice isn't it?
and why wouldn't they collude, margins for balcony and a/c ledge are so much higher than marble-tiled living room space right?
developers can also give the reasoning, free GFA is to subsidize the construction cost.
imagine $1million for 1000sf condo (with free GFA), the cost is 1000psf.
now $1million for 920sf condo (no free GFA), cost is 1086psf.
which would you choose for the same $1million.
I think they do understand - but it's more your problem not theirs.
Its run on the soccer league system ...last places are relegated.
Or maybe learned from GE - last 10% of ranked staff are managed out for a healthy vibrant turnover.
So if you don't contribute/earn/invest wisely - you will be marginalised.
And get used to living in small format housing..
Obviously those decision-makers living in huge bungalows in exclusive hoods, wont really understand la. :scared-2:
But no point whining in Singapore - just work smarter, save more and invest wisely!
]
Are you willing to pay for the free-to-developers balcony and a/c ledge?
if you have bought a condo in recent times, yes you are willing to pay like so many others.
I dun know what you are trying to drive at.
We all know the whole idea of free GFA for developers is that developer can inflate the size of a unit (and hence artificially suppress the true high psf of a unit). Such that they can sell to Singaporeans who are so keen to upgrade to a condo dream, anything within their reach is fine. When baywindow/balcony is no longer GFA free, they simply reduce the total size to 800 sqft for 3bd.
It's simply the "you" (i.e. buyers) cannot afford if it's otherwise.
Developers simply cash in on this condo dream. In older days, condos are truely for the rich, the top 20%. Nowadays a family income of merely 7-8k are dabbling in condo market. why ? developers discover ppl are willing to sacrifice space / convenience for a "condo". It opens up to another 20% of the population. This is a very huge market. And sad to say, marketing gimmicks work on this segment more than the other segment.
That's why buy big units if can afford now. Next time it will be in demand from these MM upgraders.:)
Absolutely ! I personally believe in this too. (of course there are many others who do not).
in my view, as of now every one can afford a condo. after a while, the better off ones will need/want to upgrade to a "better" condo. no wealthy family is willing to live in a tiny apartment. the top 20% will always value something that's better.
Buyers seem to be rather naive. Swayed by swanky show rooms and fast-talking salesmen. Oh well if they want a shoe box for a bedroom, so be it. It's their choice. The winners are the developers.
Those who have older FH 3BR of good size, hang onto them, they will be like gold dust in the future. No matter they are crumbling, with leakages etc.
I dun know what you are trying to drive at.
We all know the whole idea of free GFA for developers is that developer can inflate the size of a unit (and hence artificially suppress the true high psf of a unit). Such that they can sell to Singaporeans who are so keen to upgrade to a condo dream, anything within their reach is fine. When baywindow/balcony is no longer GFA free, they simply reduce the total size to 800 sqft for 3bd.........
CCR asked for removal of free GFA - his thinking that livable space will increase.
I counter that if remove GFA, either 1) or 2) will happen
1) developer maintain balcony and ac ledge, livable space will decrease.
2) developer remove balcony and ac ledge, livable space maintain the same, quantum the same, psf higher.
in short, I dont believe that with removal of free GFA, livable space will increase for the same quantum.
Also buyers are already conditioned to pay for balcony and ac ledge, even though it is free to developer.
2) developer remove balcony and ac ledge, livable space maintain the same, quantum the same, psf higher.
in short, I dont believe that with removal of free GFA, livable space will increase for the same quantum.
ok I see. I think only 2) will happen.
Also buyers are already conditioned to pay for balcony and ac ledge, even though it is free to developer.
... I would not say they are "conditioned"...they have no choice... or rather, they prefer to be "not noticing". It's far nicer to tell people "I just bought a 1500 sqft apartment at 1000 psf, great deal" than "I just bought a 1000 sqft space at 1500 psf in Punggol"
as chiaberry commented
free GFA is free to developers but the developer sell to you the free GFA.
Are you willing to pay for the free-to-developers balcony and a/c ledge?
if you have bought a condo in recent times, yes you are willing to pay like so many others.
and if URA remove the free GFA, unit size will be smaller, developer will still build balcony and a/c ledge, hence livable space will even be smaller.
afterall, if every developers collude, then buyers have no choice isn't it?
and why wouldn't they collude, margins for balcony and a/c ledge are so much higher than marble-tiled living room space right?
developers can also give the reasoning, free GFA is to subsidize the construction cost.
imagine $1million for 1000sf condo (with free GFA), the cost is 1000psf.
now $1million for 920sf condo (no free GFA), cost is 1086psf.
which would you choose for the same $1million.
You still dont get what i am trying to drive at...
If URA do not grant developers 10% bonus balcony space, and charge developer for building planter, aircon ledges, then developers will not build those... I can guarantee you coz people will fock to development with no balcony and air con ledges...
And there are too many developers for them to collude...
CCR asked for removal of free GFA - his thinking that livable space will increase.
I counter that if remove GFA, either 1) or 2) will happen
1) developer maintain balcony and ac ledge, livable space will decrease.
2) developer remove balcony and ac ledge, livable space maintain the same, quantum the same, psf higher.
in short, I dont believe that with removal of free GFA, livable space will increase for the same quantum.
Also buyers are already conditioned to pay for balcony and ac ledge, even though it is free to developer.
number 2 will happen.... and if no one bites.. then developers will bid lower for land... not with free GFA we are just padding the pockets of developers
number 2 will happen.... and if no one bites.. then developers will bid lower for land... not with free GFA we are just padding the pockets of developers
perhaps I dont read you right.
your initial premise was removal of free GFA will beget proper livable spaces. what do you mean by that statement?
1) livable space increase for the same quantum?
2) livable space remains the same but lower quantum?
3) livable space increase with lower quantum?
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