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taggy
07-09-11, 11:02
sympathise or bash ? :D:D:D

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Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling
Straits Times: 7-sep-2011

MY WIFE and I were delighted when Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong announced that the income ceiling would be raised to $10,000 and $12,000 for new build-to-order (BTO) flats and executive condominiums (ECs) respectively ('HDB raises income ceiling to $10,000'; Aug 15).

We checked the HDB website several days later but discovered that we were once again ineligible to apply for ECs even though our combined income falls below $12,000. That is because of a clause stating that an applicant cannot own any private property 30 months prior to EC application.

We are prepared to sell our private property to apply for an EC. However, requiring us to sell it 30 months before applying for an EC does not make sense.

Where will we stay for 21/2 years? In fact, if one includes the time taken for construction of the EC, we would have to spend at least five years renting a place or living with our parents.

We have a toddler and plan on having another child. The waiting period will surely disrupt their education and childcare.

Two years ago, we did not qualify because our combined income exceeded $8,000. With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location - near both our parents' homes - we were forced to buy a small private condominium apartment that was selling at valuation as we did not have enough cash.

The inescapable irony was that we qualified for a bank loan to buy a private property but did not have enough cash to buy a subsidised public flat. Being forced to buy a private home saddled us with a whopping $600,000 loan.

We are toying with the idea of selling our private property as our joint income is just below the income ceiling for now, but we are uncertain if we will still be earning the same income 30 months from now.

All we want is to live in a home we can afford and, yet, we are caught in a predicament.

We think this could be our last chance to buy a Housing Board flat. We hope the Government would consider revising this rule for the sandwiched class.

Lim Chong Wee
---------------------------

land118
07-09-11, 11:06
how to solve everyone's problem...:doh:

Regulators
07-09-11, 11:11
I agree that the 30 month rule is rather absurd

SP specialist
07-09-11, 11:19
Why need to wait for 30months?? If cant own any private property.. Should sell it and go apply for EC..

In the first place, dunno how HDB work out the waiting period of 30months..

land118
07-09-11, 11:21
I agree that the 30 month rule is rather absurd wonder how the 30mth figure come about, seem too long...another of MBT legacy

Regulators
07-09-11, 11:38
What is the rationale of making people wait 2.5 years to downgrade? If people downgrade now and immediately buy an hdb flat, they will also be stuck with 5 yr mop before they can do anything with the flat, so isn't it a case of double penalty? I think khaw boon wan needs to relook at this aspect of the law.

Regulators
07-09-11, 11:43
I think mbt's intention was just to make it tough for those who had lived in pte to buy hdb. By having this 30 month gap, it effectively deters pte pty owners from even considering hdb, keeping hdb to the mid to low income masses. But the law being rigid, it fails to take into account those who wish to downgrade because of a change in their financial situation. If a person has lost his job and needs to downgrade urgently to hdb, does it make any sense to wait out the 30 month period?
wonder how the 30mth figure come about, seem too long...another of MBT legacy
R

august
07-09-11, 12:04
i cant really sympathise with this mr lim

the hdb ceiling is 8k for a very long time. Two yrs ago when mr lim decided to buy a small private condo he shld already considered the fact that when his family grows bigger requiring him to upgrade to a bigger place, the only option will have to be a private too.

the fact that he is now eligible for HDB or EC due to raising income ceiling is therefore irrelevant... unless he is facing some financial situation requiring him to sell off his condo and downgrade.

and there is nothing wrong if he has to rent for 30mths. it is not like he cant afford it.

HP65
07-09-11, 12:06
I think mbt's intention was just to make it tough for those who had lived in pte to buy hdb. By having this 30 month gap, it effectively deters pte pty owners from even considering hdb, keeping hdb to the mid to low income masses. But the law being rigid, it fails to take into account those who wish to downgrade because of a change in their financial situation. If a person has lost his job and needs to downgrade urgently to hdb, does it make any sense to wait out the 30 month period?
R

Imo, this guy just want to have the cake and eat it too. I'm not sure about HDB rules but I assume he can still buy resale HDB after selling his Private Condo. And in the 2 yrs since he bought the `small condo', he probably would have made a decent profit to allow him to pay for the COV that he claimed he didnt have 2 yrs ago.

More likely than not, he thinks there is more profits to be made by buying a subsidised EC AND he is also unwilling to give up his profits to pay for COV. If he really wants to `downgrade', I'm sure a HDB 5 room will cost less than his `small condo'.

The disgusting part is he even use the `small home so can't pro-create' threat to argue his selfish demands. This is another eg of the `I want it all now' generation of 20s-30s. I disagree that help or subsidies be given to such people. Subsidies should be better utilised to help the real needy...not to meet aspirations. Dreams and aspirations should be through own sheer hardwork and ingenuity...not handouts.

land118
07-09-11, 12:18
i cant really sympathise with this mr lim

the hdb ceiling is 8k for a very long time. Two yrs ago when mr lim decided to buy a small private condo he shld already considered the fact that when his family grows bigger requiring him to upgrade to a bigger place, the only option will have to be a private too.

the fact that he is now eligible for HDB or EC due to raising income ceiling is therefore irrelevant... unless he is facing some financial situation requiring him to sell off his condo and downgrade.

and there is nothing wrong if he has to rent for 30mths. it is not like he cant afford it.Same sentiments, he can always go rent a place. Seem like he trying to use child upbringing and procreation ('plan on having another child') as basis for his complaint since our birth rate is low.

But the 30mth rule need to relook by KBW.

Regulators
07-09-11, 13:04
Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
Imo, this guy just want to have the cake and eat it too. I'm not sure about HDB rules but I assume he can still buy resale HDB after selling his Private Condo. And in the 2 yrs since he bought the `small condo', he probably would have made a decent profit to allow him to pay for the COV that he claimed he didnt have 2 yrs ago.

More likely than not, he thinks there is more profits to be made by buying a subsidised EC AND he is also unwilling to give up his profits to pay for COV. If he really wants to `downgrade', I'm sure a HDB 5 room will cost less than his `small condo'.

The disgusting part is he even use the `small home so can't pro-create' threat to argue his selfish demands. This is another eg of the `I want it all now' generation of 20s-30s. I disagree that help or subsidies be given to such people. Subsidies should be better utilised to help the real needy...not to meet aspirations. Dreams and aspirations should be through own sheer hardwork and ingenuity...not handouts.

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 13:22
I believe this couple can appeal and the relevant authority will review it.

august
07-09-11, 13:59
Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?

the 30-mth rule is already in place way before mr lim decided to go the condo route. therefore to quote someone, "his eyes are open."

the rule exists to facilitate limited public housing supply i.e. HDB goes to those who needs it more.

of cos we can also then argue why is this govt allowing foreigners (PRs) to have access to limited public resource? but thats another can of worms for another day hehe :D

blackpepperj
07-09-11, 13:59
I believe this couple can appeal and the relevant authority will review it.

I think this guy will fail in his appeal. Pulling his kids in to support his case just makes him look all the more desparate to get his grant.

thomastansb
07-09-11, 14:52
The 30 months waiting period is to prevent people to jump to private, make $ and jump back to HDB. People can easily earn one 5 room HDB so they didn't want people to speculate and inflate the HDB prices. I think it is a fair policy.

Anyway, this writer is bullshitting. Based on his loan amount of 600k, his purchase price would be 750k. 5% cash downpayment + 3% SD = 60k of cold hard cash.

No money for COV? Sure or not? COV only around 10k - 20k in suburban even during the height of 2007.

HP65
07-09-11, 14:57
Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?

This is not TR so would appreciate we leave out ministers etc. In fact, even if its true ministers are ripping off taxpayers, it still doesn't justify this Mr Lim's entitlement to subsidized housing if he doesn't qualify under our Housing regulations. The reason is because, going by your argument and analogy, `since the police is stealing, it gives me the right to loot as well', just doesnt make sense. A wrong is a wrong. And asking for subsidy if you are not exactly needy is plain wrong, greedy and selfish since the real needy is deprived of such resources.

Its so plain to see this guy is only telling half the story....especially when he has to resort to `threatening' the country with his fertility seeds. Once again, there is nothing wrong with making money. The issue is when he wants to make money using subsidized taxpayers money? That is the issue. I will disagree that people like him is allowed to use my money for his own gain. And if you still insist on bringing in the ministers etc, remember this is not the place to cloud the 2 separate issues. It only serve to reinforce my belief that Mr Lim's argument for subsidized housing is weak that other points need to be brought in to support his claim. Anyway, I believe the platform was on 7th May and you probably had registered your dissatisfaction :D

taggy
07-09-11, 14:59
No money for COV? Sure or not? COV only around 10k - 20k in suburban even during the height of 2007.

[With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location]
- writer only want preferred location ok :D
but the funny thing is, he want to buy new ec now,
now have ec in his preferred location meh, which used to have cov of 60k-90k :rolleyes:

thomastansb
07-09-11, 14:59
I think minister pay is seperate issue. I thought we should pay more to those performing ones. Like 10 million to a good one. People who screw things up should be sacked after 2 years and get 0.5 million or lesser only. It is hard to swallow the fact that our transport sucks but yet, someone up there is getting the same pay as one who engineer a 14.5% GDP growth.

Anyway, he did not get penalised for downgrading. He can still buy a resale flat isn't it? Just that he needs to buy a resale first, wait 5 years then apply for new flat. I am sure he knows that. I think he just want to earn even more - by selling his condo (which should have substantial gain now) and buying a subsidised condo.

By allow this to happen, those who really need HDB will be penalised and they will suffer. Of course, he is the biggest winner - at the expense of others. I think this is not right.




Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?

thomastansb
07-09-11, 15:03
I fully agree with you. It is totally separate issues. Back to that greedy asshole - Yup, he will deplete the housing supply for those who need it more. His combined income is 10-12k range, bought a private (most probably earn a big sum) and yet, want to compete with those lower income. What is this world coming to???



This is not TR so would appreciate we leave out ministers etc. In fact, even if its true ministers are ripping off taxpayers, it still doesn't justify this Mr Lim's entitlement to subsidized housing if he doesn't qualify under our Housing regulations. The reason is because, going by your argument and analogy, `since the police is stealing, it gives me the right to loot as well', just doesnt make sense. A wrong is a wrong. And asking for subsidy if you are not exactly needy is plain wrong, greedy and selfish since the real needy is deprived of such resources.

Its so plain to see this guy is only telling half the story....especially when he has to resort to `threatening' the country with his fertility seeds. Once again, there is nothing wrong with making money. The issue is when he wants to make money using subsidized taxpayers money? That is the issue. I will disagree that people like him is allowed to use my money for his own gain. And if you still insist on bringing in the ministers etc, remember this is not the place to cloud the 2 separate issues. It only serve to reinforce my belief that Mr Lim's argument for subsidized housing is weak that other points need to be brought in to support his claim. Anyway, I believe the platform was on 7th May and you probably had registered your dissatisfaction :D

thomastansb
07-09-11, 15:06
Even COV at 60k, he has the money but he choose to buy a private. And he is fully aware of the restriction.

If the Government becomes a populist Government, we are so screwed.





[With sellers seeking cash-over- valuations of between $60,000 and $90,000 in our preferred location]
- writer only want preferred location ok :D
but the funny thing is, he want to buy new ec now,
now have ec in his preferred location meh, which used to have cov of 60k-90k :rolleyes:

devilplate
07-09-11, 15:27
Tat guy just wana make easy money from hdb bto la! Seeing tat resale flat so high now and bto flat at nearly half the price!

He can sell his condo and downgrade to resale hdb wat.....cov at certain area can get less den 30k wat

There r many ppl complain this and tat la....if he appeal and get his way den can u imagine many other cases and scenerios will surface!

For eg. Singles must wait till 35yo to get a resale flat and they r not eligible to buy bto

Regulators
07-09-11, 15:31
I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, the PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get locked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.
I fully agree with you. It is totally separate issues. Back to that greedy asshole - Yup, he will deplete the housing supply for those who need it more. His combined income is 10-12k range, bought a private (most probably earn a big sum) and yet, want to compete with those lower income. What is this world coming to???

devilplate
07-09-11, 15:32
Whether mr lim has made money or not is besides the point. Are you telling me that it is ok for ministers to rip obscene loads of money off taxpayers and people can't earn money from property? Why should he be penalised for downgrading? You mean our society should be one that encourages people to upgrade when the person does well and punish a person for downgrading if he fails to maintain his high cost of living?
Y u say he is being penalised for downgrading?:beats-me-man:

He can get a resale flat wat? No? Can he proved tat he cant find a 5rm resale flat in whole sg tat is affordable for him?

And dun always Bring in minister pay la.....y minister dun hf to pay income tax? Y we shd pay? Yyyy???

devilplate
07-09-11, 15:35
I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, it PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get licked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.
U say 5yrs mop is too long? Bcoz its too short tats y some ppl r speculating hdb now?:doh:

U wan shorter mop and yet u aso complain sky high hdb px! Whahaha

Regulators
07-09-11, 15:42
Many things can happen to a person's financial situation in five years. If you are employed under a contract, do employers give you 5 year contracts or just 2 years? Even employers dare not commit to employees for long, so hdb can commit people for five years?
U say 5yrs mop is too long? Bcoz its too short tats y some ppl r speculating hdb now?:doh:

U wan shorter mop and yet u aso complain sky high hdb px! Whahaha

devilplate
07-09-11, 15:46
Many things can happen to a person's financial situation in five years. If you are employed under a contract, do employers give you 5 year contracts or just 2 years? Even employers dare not commit to employees for long, so hdb can commit people for five years?
Irrelevant....

And den y bank can approve 30yr loan since individual financial situation is subjected to change every now and den?

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 15:47
HDB should revert the MOP to 10 years and assess % of HDB buyers are exploiting it. So many of them use rental from HDB to pay for mortgage of private homes. I should be the one who say unfair as I was never eligible to buy a new flat to exploit the subsidy, etc. We have to be contended some times.
I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, the PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get locked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.

Regulators
07-09-11, 15:50
Banks can auction your property and bankrupt you if you don't pay. Are you suggesting hdb should operate like the banks or is it better for them to give leeway and allow people to sell during mop?
Irrelevant....

And den y bank can approve 30yr loan since individual financial situation is subjected to change every now and den?

devilplate
07-09-11, 15:54
Banks can auction your property and bankrupt you if you don't pay. Are you suggesting hdb should operate like the banks or is it better for them to give leeway and allow people to sell during mop?
I dun undstand ur point ....

If a person default hdb installment, hdb usually got some leeway unlike banks....so wat u r complaning about?

Earlier u r complaining mop too long wat...is there a link?

I m trying to say all ur points r irrelevant

marktkt22
07-09-11, 15:57
How small is small ?
A 4rm flat at 90m2, can house a couple and 2 kids comfortably.
An 2 or 3 bedder at 1000ft is like a 4rm flat size

Regulators
07-09-11, 15:59
I still stick to the view that mop is too long coz people's financial situation can change requiring them to sell their flat at anytime. Whether hdb gives leeway or not, that is not in the law, just something that hdb can sooka sooka act according to its whim. Btw I am not complaining coz hdb has been very good to me, I just think they should scrap the 30 month rule and reduce 5 year mop
I dun undstand ur point ....

If a person default hdb installment, hdb usually got some leeway unlike banks....so wat u r complaning about?

Earlier u r complaining mop too long wat...is there a link?

I m trying to say all ur points r irrelevant

hyenergix
07-09-11, 16:23
Good idea. Buy BTO with subsidy, sell at market price, buy EC with subsidy, sell EC w capital appreciation, buy BTO with subsidy... Then repeat n times... What a way to make money from tax payers :mad:

thomastansb
07-09-11, 16:43
Raising ceiling is to allow people who earn higher to buy la. IMO, bad move.

Diminishing Singaporeans but resources is never in question. We can build 1 million flat if we revamp the whole yishun and sembawang. We can release more land. Punggol along can fit 1/4 singapore if we use all the land. But the Government don't do it for obvious reason. Just like HK, they don't sell all their land out. They sell it slowly and super expensive. Like MBT said, raiding our reserve. I am sad that he is gone.

Lastly, on the profit. Yup. We should all be allowed to make profit. But the Government has to consider for the majority. Like SSD 16%, we say it is unfair but it helps to stabalise the market. If prices drop, no one can sell easily. Also to deter flippers. So is the income ceiling of 10k. Those who earn 10.1k will say it is unfair, right? But the Government has to look at statistics and say, 90% of the population is earning below 10k. Those 10%, they are rich enough. That is a good Government IMO.

So back to the point, the 30 months is used to make sure that people who has the money to play private - they don't play finish and come to snatch public housing grant. The Government stand is clear (and good). If you want to play private, don't screw 80 - 90% of the normal Singaporeans. You are rich enough but don't be overly selfish and greedy.

But he is allowed to buy resale at market price. Just that he is NOT allowed to go for first timer grant.




I have a few questions for you. What then is the purpose of raising the ceiling? How can a diminishing population of singaporeans be depleting housing resources? If any problem is caused in the public housing market, the PRs should be the problem. We may all know what Mr Lim is up to, reaping profits from both sides pte n hdb, but aren't we all doing that? I can afford to buy 3 pte condos and more to come on the pipeline but I am still keeping my hdb and renting it out for gains, aren't many singaporeans doing the same for decades? I really see nothing wrong with Mr Lim's downgrading plan and don't forget that even if he buys the hdb, he will get locked in for 5 years, that is already the opportunity cost for him coz he can't go back to pte within that time. To me 5yrs is heck of a long time especially when we are all approaching mid life.

thomastansb
07-09-11, 16:58
You don't know the consequences.

Yes, people's financial situation might change but no one ask them to be so unprepared or over commit themselves. They can buy BTO or in this case, he can go for a cheaper, smaller suburban condo. Come on, that guy is earning a combined salary close to 12k or easily 150k - 200k a year including bonus.

I think we have to be rational and think of what is good for the nation as a whole. There are many who are earning 2.2k applying for 4 bedrooms so we have to think for them. Based on IRAS salary data, more than 50% earn lesser than 2.5k INCLUDING bonus. And how many are in workforce? 3 million? And here, you are suggesting we should let those rich people (IMO if you can buy private, you are rich enough) come in and snatch the first timer grant? And to remove 5 years MOP for rich people to speculate (after you sell, you have to move into private so you must be rich)? That is penalising majority of the people - just for the sake of some rich enough people to buy private without planning properly. And that account for how many % of the population? If the Government take such risk, then they are really screwing the citizens.



I still stick to the view that mop is too long coz people's financial situation can change requiring them to sell their flat at anytime. Whether hdb gives leeway or not, that is not in the law, just something that hdb can sooka sooka act according to its whim. Btw I am not complaining coz hdb has been very good to me, I just think they should scrap the 30 month rule and reduce 5 year mop

Regulators
07-09-11, 17:04
If the guy who used not to be qualified to buy new hdb flat due to income ceiling is now allowed to buy new hdb due to ceiling adjustment, he is still considered a first timer and entitled to grant, there is nothing wrong with that and the guy is working within the rules. What is nonsensical to me is that despite this guy preparing to lower his standard of living and subjecting to 5 yr mop govt still needs to subject him to the 30 month waiting period before he can buy. Why does he need to buy 2.5yr later when there are flats available to him in a shorter time? If there is any control, it should impose that restriction on prs and not singaporeans.

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 17:07
In fact, HDB is being exploited when they reduce MOP from 10years to 5 years as this is a politcally correct decision to keep more Singaporean/SPR happy with other form of incomes like rental.
You don't know the consequences.

Yes, people's financial situation might change but no one ask them to be so unprepared or over commit themselves. They can buy BTO or in this case, he can go for a cheaper, smaller suburban condo. Come on, that guy is earning a combined salary close to 12k or easily 150k - 200k a year including bonus.

I think we have to be rational and think of what is good for the nation as a whole. There are many who are earning 2.2k applying for 4 bedrooms so we have to think for them. Based on IRAS salary data, more than 50% earn lesser than 2.5k INCLUDING bonus. And how many are in workforce? 3 million? And here, you are suggesting we should let those rich people (IMO if you can buy private, you are rich enough) come in and snatch the first timer grant? And to remove 5 years MOP for rich people to speculate (after you sell, you have to move into private so you must be rich)? That is penalising majority of the people - just for the sake of some rich enough people to buy private without planning properly. And that account for how many % of the population? If the Government take such risk, then they are really screwing the citizens.

cheerful
07-09-11, 17:07
yup ... this chap just wanna have his cake & eat it. Unless he learns to be flexible, else this should really be considered as 'noise' & wonder why ST actually published such in forum?

It doesn't make sense at all to say that then they earned < $8K, so should buy pte ... wat were they actually thinking of then? If they were thinking of profit, perhaps this is the time to take profit - if don't want to wait for the mop 30 mths (& yet want to have subsidies), then he betta know that he ought to be flexi, mayb earn the profit now & then live with watever inconvenience lah. Wat convenience, don't want to rent, etc. etc. .. many demands in between the lines.

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 17:10
MOP is for show. I am sure there is quite a number of people out there who have been violating this MOP rule of 5 years by renting their part of their flats. HDB is just closing one or even both eyes.
If the guy who used not to be qualified to buy new hdb flat due to income ceiling is now allowed to buy new hdb due to ceiling adjustment, he is still considered a first timer and entitled to grant, there is nothing wrong with that and the guy is working within the rules. What is nonsensical to me is that despite this guy preparing to lower his standard of living and subjecting to 5 yr mop govt still needs to subject him to the 30 month waiting period before he can buy. Why does he need to buy 2.5yr later when there are flats available to him in a shorter time? If there is any control, it should impose that restriction on prs and not singaporeans.

devilplate
07-09-11, 17:11
If the guy who used not to be qualified to buy new hdb flat due to income ceiling is now allowed to buy new hdb due to ceiling adjustment, he is still considered a first timer and entitled to grant, there is nothing wrong with that and the guy is working within the rules. What is nonsensical to me is that despite this guy preparing to lower his standard of living and subjecting to 5 yr mop govt still needs to subject him to the 30 month waiting period before he can buy. Why does he need to buy 2.5yr later when there are flats available to him in a shorter time? If there is any control, it should impose that restriction on prs and not singaporeans.
He got alternatives wat and since he oredi got a roof so his situation is of less priority to other 1st timer n newly weds

He can always get a resale flat....so i tink his reasons r not valid:p

devilplate
07-09-11, 17:12
MOP is for show. I am sure there is quite a number of people out there who have been violating this MOP rule of 5 years by renting their part of their flats. HDB is just closing one or even both eyes.
Just dun get caught lor

thomastansb
07-09-11, 17:23
What has PR got to do with this case? PR cannot buy BTO, period.

I remember NSS. I didn't qualify for it because I was too young then. Now I have exceeded 21, can I ask NSS back from Government?

Back to this guy. He earn 10-12k. He bought a 750k condo which is probably worth 1M now. His downpayment in CASH is 60k minimum, assuming 80% loan. Lower standard of living or fussy? 60k COV have a lot of choices. Come on la. He didn't buy private because he can't afford resale HDB. He wants a high standard of living. 60k of cash, there is really nothing to argue about. Now, he turns greedy, wants to cash out and fight with those first timers.

We must always think - at that point of time, what did he choose? If not, everyone would be talking about what happen 25 years ago and start asking for money from the Government. Anyway, my logic is simple. There will be injustice and sufferings around. But in order to satisfy the 1%, we let 50% suffer, that is not a good decision. Yes, we can allow this guy to buy based on his story. The next day, you have 300k private owners saying the same thing. I want to see how many people will apply for the next EC. I hope you get my point.




If the guy who used not to be qualified to buy new hdb flat due to income ceiling is now allowed to buy new hdb due to ceiling adjustment, he is still considered a first timer and entitled to grant, there is nothing wrong with that and the guy is working within the rules. What is nonsensical to me is that despite this guy preparing to lower his standard of living and subjecting to 5 yr mop govt still needs to subject him to the 30 month waiting period before he can buy. Why does he need to buy 2.5yr later when there are flats available to him in a shorter time? If there is any control, it should impose that restriction on prs and not singaporeans.

Regulators
07-09-11, 17:27
Bro our country going to be overtaken by foreigners liao, where got so many singaporean newly weds for govt to consider. Even if there are newly weds, we are talking about singaporean and foreigner newly weds or pr and pr newly wed. Our govt should put singaporeans interest above all these prs.
He got alternatives wat and since he oredi got a roof so his situation is of less priority to other 1st timer n newly weds

He can always get a resale flat....so i tink his reasons r not valid:p

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 17:28
Othewise, there will be couple with one of them resign to look after family and the household income will drop below the $12,000 mark and start applying for subsidized ECs. The 30 months is to serve as a deterrence.
What has PR got to do with this case? PR cannot buy BTO, period.

I remember NSS. I didn't qualify for it because I was too young then. Now I have exceeded 21, can I ask NSS back from Government?

Back to this guy. He earn 10-12k. He bought a 750k condo which is probably worth 1M now. His downpayment in CASH is 60k minimum, assuming 80% loan. Lower standard of living or fussy? 60k COV have a lot of choices. Come on la. He didn't buy private because he can't afford resale HDB. He wants a high standard of living. 60k of cash, there is really nothing to argue about. Now, he turns greedy, wants to cash out and fight with those first timers.

We must always think - at that point of time, what did he choose? If not, everyone would be talking about what happen 25 years ago and start asking for money from the Government.

phantom_opera
07-09-11, 17:44
Aiya, wanting to cash out from private to realize his profit and don't want to pay COV for HDB resale flat mah .... greedy guy, 12k family income say not secure, our nation family median income is only less than 6k, then most families must be very very insecure already :tongue3:

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 17:58
Extracted from TKL's site :

The United Nations measure the Gini index as the ratio of the income of the top 10% (riches) compared to the bottom 20% (poorest) in the country. A higher index shows a bigger inequality of income. Here are the findings:

High income countries
Japan 24.9
Germany 28.3
Canada 32.6
France 32.7
Australia 35.2
UK 36.0
Israel 39.2
USA 40.8
Singapore 42.5
Hong Kong 43.4

Low income countries
Indonesia 34.3
Russia 39.9
China 46.9

We have seen unrest in China and Israel about the high cost of living. Both countries have high Gini index. I have included Australia and Canada as these countries are rated to provide a good standard of life for their people.

America is considered to have high income inequality. Singapore is worse than America

Regulators
07-09-11, 18:00
Actually I agree that $10k a month is insecure with family and children. It is not like you can do a lot with that sum especially when you have to save for old age, face exorbitant medical bills, face rising inflation and yet have to set aside money for creature comforts. People invest in pty for a more secure future, nothing wrong with that. People liquidating assets to keep cash for rainy day also nothing wrong with that. Gvt has to learn to respect people's wishes and not dictate what people should or should not do, some of you guys here have been dictating what mr lim ought to do, so where is that freedom to choose or change course in one's life, is the govt going to step in at every juncture in everyone's life to dictate this and that making our society more stiffling?
Aiya, wanting to cash out from private to realize his profit and don't want to pay COV for HDB resale flat mah .... greedy guy, 12k family income say not secure, our nation family median income is only less than 6k, then most families must be very very insecure already :tongue3:

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 18:05
The problem is that we are being trained to assume people are trying to exploit the system in Singapore. However, it is the opposite in some other parts of the world. It is just our up-bringing. I experienced this when I return after spending 8 years abroad.
Actually I agree that $10k a month is insecure with family and children. It is not like you can do a lot with that sum especially when you have to save for old age, face exorbitant medical bills, face rising inflation and yet have to set aside money for creature comforts. People invest in pty for a more secure future, nothing wrong with that. People liquidating assets to keep cash for rainy day also nothing wrong with that. Gvt has to learn to respect people's wishes and not dictate what people should or should not do, some of you guys here have been dictating what mr lim ought to do, so where is that freedom to choose or change course in one's life, is the govt going to step in at every juncture in everyone's life to dictate this and that making our society more stiffling?

GForce
07-09-11, 18:21
This guy is simply greedy n selfish ! Govt should not entertain his request!
PERIOD..................

Regulators
07-09-11, 18:29
It seems I am the underdog here, everyone against mr lim, poor guy.

kingkong1984
07-09-11, 19:11
very simple lah, sell and buy a resale EC LOL...

the 30 months rule is there when he committed.

so dun come back and complaint...

The rule is to prevent him to take a second bite of the cherry even though the first cherry is not from government but from his own pte condo.

He sell his pte sure got at least $100k to $500k in cash gain.

Rules are rules..

3C
07-09-11, 19:11
It seems I am the underdog here, everyone against mr lim, poor guy.

The reason is simple. You simply cant differentiate the difference between
"need" and "want":D

Laguna
07-09-11, 20:18
Throw this guy to Hong Kong and he will then appreciate what he has here

ysyap
07-09-11, 20:39
Assuming Mr Lim is looking at buying a larger EC unit, a decent 3 or 4 bedder EC cost about $1mil and that would easily leave him with another $600k bank loan which he already mentioned its too high. Then why is he moving from one pit hole into the next? Get a resale HDB and do it up nicely will easily solve his problem, unless he's eyeing that attraction which EC owners enjoy - luxurious price appreciation after MOP? :tsk-tsk:

DC33_2008
07-09-11, 20:41
They want lifestyle but at subsidized price. :doh:
Assuming Mr Lee is looking at buying a larger EC unit, a decent 3 or 4 bedder EC cost about $1mil and that would easily leave him with another $600k bank loan which he already mentioned its too high. Then why is he moving from one pit hole into the next? Get a resale HDB and do it up nicely will easily solve his problem, unless he's eyeing that attraction which EC owners enjoy - luxurious price appreciation after MOP? :tsk-tsk:

sh
07-09-11, 20:50
The bottom line is... HDB is PUBLIC HOUSING, meant for people who cannot afford PRIVATE HOUSING.

He obviously can afford and has bought private property..... So stop whining....:mad:

Allthepies
07-09-11, 20:53
This guy is ai pi ai qi ai dua liap ni :D pity him for wat? Got house stay still complaint :banghead: Another silliporean :banghead:

maisonjai
07-09-11, 21:09
agree with kingkong, want to maintain lifestyle can always opt for resale EC

new EC
dispose pte, 30mth wait -Yes
construction 2.5years - Yes
total = 5 years

resale EC
dispose pte, 30mth wait -NA
construction 2.5years - NA
3-4 mths can shift in, incl reno

so what is his problem?
want NEW, FRESH, CHEAP & NOW.

what combine income, COV, downgrade, another baby, all these are salt & pepper to spice up his story.

his opening story already reveal himself
"MY WIFE and I were delighted when Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong announced that the income ceiling would be raised to $10,000 and $12,000 for new build-to-order (BTO) flats and executive condominiums (ECs) respectively ('HDB raises income ceiling to $10,000'; Aug 15).
= Delighted :cheers1:

We checked the HDB website several days later but discovered that we were once again ineligible to apply for ECs even though our combined income falls below $12,000. That is because of a clause stating that an applicant cannot own any private property 30 months prior to EC application.
= Disappointed :mad:

Disappointed no cherry how, Complain lor. If PM didn't announce this new regulation, this story will not surface.

EC really hot, need more ppl like him to write even more stories to appeal, it will only leads to higher psf for EC. ;)

thomastansb
07-09-11, 21:10
Oh ya, I totally forget about EC prices now. Even those suburban like Tampines already cost 700k to 1M for a 3 bedder. So the loan amount will still be the same. Mr Lim is really disgusting. Luckily my surname is Tan. Pui.. No integrity...



Assuming Mr Lim is looking at buying a larger EC unit, a decent 3 or 4 bedder EC cost about $1mil and that would easily leave him with another $600k bank loan which he already mentioned its too high. Then why is he moving from one pit hole into the next? Get a resale HDB and do it up nicely will easily solve his problem, unless he's eyeing that attraction which EC owners enjoy - luxurious price appreciation after MOP? :tsk-tsk:

thomastansb
07-09-11, 21:14
Not really a PAP supporter but I have to defend for them this time round.

Singaporean buy BTO (or EC or whatever). PR buy from Singaporean at market price (usually x 2). I think it is a good scheme.

Not many people understand but soon, they will understand when 70,000 flats TOP in 2015.



Bro our country going to be overtaken by foreigners liao, where got so many singaporean newly weds for govt to consider. Even if there are newly weds, we are talking about singaporean and foreigner newly weds or pr and pr newly wed. Our govt should put singaporeans interest above all these prs.

thomastansb
07-09-11, 21:16
Well, it is better to be safe. After all, 80% stay in HDB. Government has the obligation to protect the majority. There will always be a small minority who will not get it. But the minority is rich so it is fair.

It is just like those earning > 200k are complaining why they are paying 20% income tax instead of 3.5% like those earning 25k.




The problem is that we are being trained to assume people are trying to exploit the system in Singapore. However, it is the opposite in some other parts of the world. It is just our up-bringing. I experienced this when I return after spending 8 years abroad.

Allthepies
07-09-11, 21:20
Not really a PAP supporter but I have to defend for them this time round.

Singaporean buy BTO (or EC or whatever). PR buy from Singaporean at market price (usually x 2). I think it is a good scheme.

Not many people understand but soon, they will understand when 70,000 flats TOP in 2015.


Well said :cool-punk-headbange

Yin Yin
07-09-11, 21:55
Rules have to be put in place so people will not abuse the privileges. Many people can work out tricks to get themselves entitled to purchase BTO or EC with grant.

Ie. My friends have combined income of 15k, in order to stay qualified for EC, the wife is considering giving up her 3k job for time being and work again after they got EC.

If there's no 30 months gap, many private owners might be cashing out their Pte and get themselves qualified for subsidized EC. This will create another set of supply shortage issue. It's never ending.

solsys
07-09-11, 23:20
This guy never did his homework well enough, I.e read 30mth fineprint,and yet is complaining for being painted a nice picture when he is not even supposed to even not think of it in the first place.

Greedy guy. He made his money in his 1st prop and wanna reap more from grant and EC.

If you wanna play then play by the rules and within the system boundaries.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 00:08
Anyway, he is a despicable man with no integrity. Full of lies. Despise these kind of people who resort to lying to earn more money at the expense of those more unfortunate than him. Disgusting to the max..

thomastansb
08-09-11, 00:11
If a major crisis coincide with the 70,000+ units, I want to see if people smile, laugh or cry. That time, they will be selling 50k below valuation. And no below valuation, no talk. 200k can buy one resale 4 bedroom. Like what MBT said, raiding the reserve - only thing is your own reserve. Too bad, this is what Singaporeans want.




Well said :cool-punk-headbange

Regulators
08-09-11, 01:01
Are you talking about the newly elected president? :D


Anyway, he is a despicable man with no integrity. Full of lies. Despise these kind of people who resort to lying to earn more money at the expense of those more unfortunate than him. Disgusting to the max..

RSG
08-09-11, 09:34
With due respect to all the comments, I feel that the 30 month rule should be reviewed. Mr Lim already has to wait for at least 3 years for the new EC to be completed. As long as he disposes his private property before the TOP of the EC, I see no harm in allowing him to purchase EC. Whether he disposes his private property now or in 3 years time, there is still a risk in price fluctuation. His reason for upgrading to a larger unit, new EC is not unreasonable. Govt should respect the need of people like Mr Lim although he may be minority.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 09:40
Good. Now we think of the 1% who are rich than the remaining 50% who earn < 2.5k.



With due respect to all the comments, I feel that the 30 month rule should be reviewed. Mr Lim already has to wait for at least 3 years for the new EC to be completed. As long as he disposes his private property before the TOP of the EC, I see no harm in allowing him to purchase EC. Whether he disposes his private property now or in 3 years time, there is still a risk in price fluctuation. His reason for upgrading to a larger unit, new EC is not unreasonable. Govt should respect the need of people like Mr Lim although he may be minority.

RSG
08-09-11, 10:01
It is not Mr Lim's fault for being amongst the 1%. Should give him credit for being the 1% at such young age. Whilst sympathy goes to the 50% earning <$2.5k, those in higher bracket should not be penalized. They too deserve govt's concern as rightful citizens of Singapore. The intent of the govt's policy with regards to the 30 months period is not clear. I doubt the intent is to keep out people like Mr Lim.

HP65
08-09-11, 10:03
Actually I agree that $10k a month is insecure with family and children. It is not like you can do a lot with that sum especially when you have to save for old age, face exorbitant medical bills, face rising inflation and yet have to set aside money for creature comforts. People invest in pty for a more secure future, nothing wrong with that. People liquidating assets to keep cash for rainy day also nothing wrong with that. Gvt has to learn to respect people's wishes and not dictate what people should or should not do, some of you guys here have been dictating what mr lim ought to do, so where is that freedom to choose or change course in one's life, is the govt going to step in at every juncture in everyone's life to dictate this and that making our society more stiffling?

He can have the freedom as long as he doesn't buy subsidized apts like EC or new HDB flats. I wonder if you are dense or you just want to side-step the issue and blame the govt :D

Hate it when people throw in irrelevant/ red herring points to cloud a situation. Either the person can't grasp the issue on hand or just plain ......

RSG
08-09-11, 10:18
What is wrong with him wanting to buy subsidised EC? Its only once in his lifetime anyway. Just because he bought a private apt does not mean that he is rich. He bought it with a bank loan. Not meant to be a red herring. My comment may not be intelligent. But its my humble view.

jeaprp
08-09-11, 10:23
He can have the freedom as long as he doesn't buy subsidized apts like EC or new HDB flats. I wonder if you are dense or you just want to side-step the issue and blame the govt :D

Hate it when people throw in irrelevant/ red herring points to cloud a situation. Either the person can't grasp the issue on hand or just plain ......

Agreed. quit whining

devilplate
08-09-11, 10:27
It is not Mr Lim's fault for being amongst the 1%. Should give him credit for being the 1% at such young age. Whilst sympathy goes to the 50% earning <$2.5k, those in higher bracket should not be penalized. They too deserve govt's concern as rightful citizens of Singapore. The intent of the govt's policy with regards to the 30 months period is not clear. I doubt the intent is to keep out people like Mr Lim.

there r many other scenerios/cases as well

singles cant buy new flats and those divorcees.....Y PAP PENALISED THE MINORITY???

this 30mth rule definitely act as a deterrent...bcoz my cousins sold their condo last yr and complained to me y they cannot apply for new EC.....so they ended up with another cheaper RESALE EC further away from city. SO it definitely helps to reduce the demand for new ECs

mabe a retiree later on complain again saying y need to dispose his condo when he decide to downgrade to HDB to stay while keeping the other condo for passive income. FURTHERMORE, RESALE FLATS R NOT 'DIRECTLY SUBSIDIZED', HE GOTO PAY HEFTY COV! Y GOVT/PAP MUST DICTATE US WAT TO DO AND NOT TO DO DURING OUR COURSE OF LIFE!?!?! HAHAHA

HP65
08-09-11, 10:32
It is not Mr Lim's fault for being amongst the 1%. Should give him credit for being the 1% at such young age. Whilst sympathy goes to the 50% earning <$2.5k, those in higher bracket should not be penalized. They too deserve govt's concern as rightful citizens of Singapore. The intent of the govt's policy with regards to the 30 months period is not clear. I doubt the intent is to keep out people like Mr Lim.

The 1% is NOT being penalised. On the contrary, if we accede to Mr Lim's demands, the poor WILL indeed be penalised as they are robbed by this guy the subsidies that would have gone to the poor.

HP65
08-09-11, 10:41
What is wrong with him wanting to buy subsidised EC? Its only once in his lifetime anyway. Just because he bought a private apt does not mean that he is rich. He bought it with a bank loan. Not meant to be a red herring. My comment may not be intelligent. But its my humble view.

He may not be very rich....but he is certainly richer than the many qualified EC buyers who couldn't afford to even buy a `small private condo'.

And since its a subsidised product from taxpayers money, there is a need to prioritize who is entitled to the subsidy. In this case, Mr Lim is ranked lower since he can afford a private condo compared to some other people who can't even afford a small private condo.

devilplate
08-09-11, 10:48
if the market crashed by 20-30% now, do u tink mr Lim still interested to buy new EC at 6xx-7xxpsf? i am sure he will either continue to stay in his small condo or invest in another condo!

EC is super attractive now bcoz OCR condos r 200-300psf higher!

u tink this 30mth shd be reviewed at this point in time? definitely CANNOT!

RSG
08-09-11, 11:06
Pardon my ignorance. What subsidy are we talking about? If it is the $30k or so for 1st timers or staying near parents etc., perhaps this subsidy should not be given to such purchasers as Mr Lim.

august
08-09-11, 11:21
What is wrong with him wanting to buy subsidised EC? Its only once in his lifetime anyway. Just because he bought a private apt does not mean that he is rich. He bought it with a bank loan. Not meant to be a red herring. My comment may not be intelligent. But its my humble view.

sure he can buy, just wait 30 mths like everyone else ~ :o

thomastansb
08-09-11, 11:28
Yup. I don't know what people are thinking nowadays. Let those richer 1% gain while others suffer. Just because they dislike the Government or whatever.. What a sad society.

:doh:




The 1% is NOT being penalised. On the contrary, if we accede to Mr Lim's demands, the poor WILL indeed be penalised as they are robbed by this guy the subsidies that would have gone to the poor.

RSG
08-09-11, 11:28
Perhaps allowing Mr Lim to buy without the 30 months restriction on condition of no subsidy may be equitable. Of course he will have to dispose of the property before TOP.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 11:33
Nope, not the 30k.That 30k is loose change only. EC are priced much lesser than private condo. Assuming both are identical, EC would have cost 20-30% cheaper BUT with all HDB rules attached. So if we are talking about a 800k 3 bedder, the buyer would have saved 160k to 240k if he bought a similar condo. EC is exactly the same as condo. Just with the rules attached. EC comes with pool, tennis court, gym, whatever spa pool etc etc...

People's mindset need to be changed. He did not get penalised. He just doesn't qualify for subsidy. I would be equally disgusted if a child whose family is earning 200k a year is applying for school books assistance meant for the needy.




Pardon my ignorance. What subsidy are we talking about? If it is the $30k or so for 1st timers or staying near parents etc., perhaps this subsidy should not be given to such purchasers as Mr Lim.

maisonjai
08-09-11, 11:37
After this, will there be enbloc owners appealing to abolish 30mth wait so that they buy new EC if they never enjoy subsidize housing before? No ending..

thomastansb
08-09-11, 11:38
If no subsidy, EC will be priced at 30% more. I don't think greedy Lim will be interested. This society is sick. The rich is thinking of ways to get subsidy from the average.




Perhaps allowing Mr Lim to buy without the 30 months restriction on condition of no subsidy may be equitable. Of course he will have to dispose of the property before TOP.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 11:41
Maybe some rich people's son will start asking for study grant, books grant etc. And some will start challenging the Government why they don't qualify for public assistance. We are morphing into Europe mentality.




After this, will there be enbloc owners appealing to abolish 30mth wait so that they buy new EC if they never enjoy subsidize housing before? No ending..

RSG
08-09-11, 11:47
If that is the case, am I right to say that the differential (other than the 30k) in pricing and subsidy between EC and Condo is the opportunity cost of the land to the Govt. HDB sells the land at competitive market price to developers and thereafter its up to the developer to set the price and take the risk. The same land could fetch higher price if sold by URA as GLS.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 11:49
I don't know. I only know EC is about 20-30% cheaper than Condo. If same price, only fools buy EC.




If that is the case, am I right to say that the differential (other than the 30k) in pricing and subsidy between EC and Condo is the opportunity cost of the land to the Govt. HDB sells the land at competitive market price to developers and thereafter its up to the developer to set the price and take the risk. The same land could fetch higher price if sold by URA as GLS.

devilplate
08-09-11, 12:00
y tat greedy Lim cannot opt for resale ECs instead meh?

park green about 700-750psf now and next door austville how much now?(650-700psf without 30k grant)??

isnt it better to get ready resale EC?

the Arc at tamp reported about 7xxpsf rite? can get whitewater for eg rite? similar psf leh?

So, wat so great about buying new Ecs?!?!?!!

so far only esparina and another one more duno wats the name liao(near punggol mrt) near MRT rite....

jeaprp
08-09-11, 12:04
If that is the case, am I right to say that the differential (other than the 30k) in pricing and subsidy between EC and Condo is the opportunity cost of the land to the Govt. HDB sells the land at competitive market price to developers and thereafter its up to the developer to set the price and take the risk. The same land could fetch higher price if sold by URA as GLS.

The land is also open for tender but subject to EC rules. that's why dev bid lower, But the GLS got no restrictions for the developers

RSG
08-09-11, 12:10
Thanks to all for the emotive comments. Now I am convinced that Mr Lim could be after the subsidy which I agree should not be given to him. He could anytime move to a bigger unit of a resale EC if he wants to.

HP65
08-09-11, 12:10
y tat greedy Lim cannot opt for resale ECs instead meh?

park green about 700-750psf now and next door austville how much now?(650-700psf without 30k grant)??

isnt it better to get ready resale EC?

With a greedy mindset, one will aim to maximise the gain. And the rules are in placed exactly to arrest such abuses. Buying a resale EC would have reduced that margin, taking into consideration the age factor.

I'm glad there r quite a number who believes we really shouldnt rob the poor. Cant believe some can even try to justify it that its `within the rules'. While I may not be like Warren Buffet to suggest the rich be taxed more, i certainly think its selfish to ask for subsidy and also go to the extent of threatening the govt that he will not pro-create if his demands are not met. This society really needs to do some soul searching.

RSG
08-09-11, 12:20
Fully agree with you. Same goes for the well to do who apply for scholarships thereby depriving those less well to do and deserving. Some well to do compete for scholarships due to the prestige attached to it at the expense of the less well to do. This must change.

Regulators
08-09-11, 12:25
Ok lah I stand with you guys, this Mr Lim is just a greedy bugger and should continue living in pte and be barred from buying hdb flat for life, resale or subsidised. I also think hdb should be reducing the ceiling to $5k so that new hdb flats only meant for the really poor which I think majority of you think 90% of our population come under. :D :D

RSG
08-09-11, 12:36
Not so drastic la. Must be reasonable and equitable.

thomastansb
08-09-11, 14:29
No la, I got your point. Must see case by case. Some will fall through this crack as what you mentioned but 90% of the population come first. This greedy Lim obviously didn't deserve it. His reason is not enough cash as he cannot meet the COV of 60k. Miraculously, he has 8% of cash (and 112.5k of CPF) which amount to 60k to buy condo. Obviously he is cheating his way through. Got 60k buy condo, no 60k to pay COV if he wants an AFFORDABLE house.

And see this - "All we want is to live in a home we can afford and, yet, we are caught in a predicament."

A home that he can afford. Why didn't he go for resale HDB with 5 to 10k COV? Remember, he wants a home he can afford. Not something he wants like swimming pool, gym etc... Maybe I am not rich that is why I am pretty against rich people exploiting the not-so-rich group.




Ok lah I stand with you guys, this Mr Lim is just a greedy bugger and should continue living in pte and be barred from buying hdb flat for life, resale or subsidised. I also think hdb should be reducing the ceiling to $5k so that new hdb flats only meant for the really poor which I think majority of you think 90% of our population come under. :D :D

ysyap
08-09-11, 15:19
With all due respect, the govt's recent move to review and revise the income ceiling is widely applauded and if Mr Lim falls within that category, then cheers, he should be able to buy an EC without so much skepticism from us. The rule has it that those who downgrade from PC should wait 2.5 years for a good reason of not encouraging those who can afford a PC to fight with those who can only afford ECs. Mr Lim should then present his case to the relevant authority and be penalized in some other ways should he be allowed to lay his hands on an EC. This is to honour that initial reason for introducing that 30 month wait. If he doesn't want to wait, then measures should be introduced to ensure he doesn't abuse that previlege. Extend his MOP to 10 years or subject him to 20% SSD if he sells that unit in future. All else being equal, if he's not willing to accept these inconveniences or clauses, then he should just guai guai wait 30 months. :cheers1:

Anyway, from this episode, we can see that
1. by raising the income ceiling, ECs become much more affordable to a large group of people, i.e. the income ceiling may be raised by too much that those who initially could afford PCs are coming to fight for their rights to own an EC.
2. Singaporeans will never be satisfied whatever perks the govt are giving

RSG
08-09-11, 15:24
Hats off to you, thomastansb. You are very sharp. You deserve the status of valued contributor".

Komo
08-09-11, 15:37
there r many other scenerios/cases as well

singles cant buy new flats and those divorcees.....Y PAP PENALISED THE MINORITY???

this 30mth rule definitely act as a deterrent...bcoz my cousins sold their condo last yr and complained to me y they cannot apply for new EC.....so they ended up with another cheaper RESALE EC further away from city. SO it definitely helps to reduce the demand for new ECs

mabe a retiree later on complain again saying y need to dispose his condo when he decide to downgrade to HDB to stay while keeping the other condo for passive income. FURTHERMORE, RESALE FLATS R NOT 'DIRECTLY SUBSIDIZED', HE GOTO PAY HEFTY COV! Y GOVT/PAP MUST DICTATE US WAT
TO DO AND NOT TO DO DURING OUR COURSE OF LIFE!?!?! HAHAHA:D

Today Mr Lim asked to waive 30mths because he need to buy. Tomorrow he will ask to impose 30mths because he need to sell

ysyap
08-09-11, 22:06
:D

Today Mr Lim asked to waive 30mths because he need to buy. Tomorrow he will ask to impose 30mths because he need to sellWhy would he want govt to impose 30 months when he needs to sell? No 30 months will see him having more potential buyers to meet his higher asking price! :o

fclim
09-09-11, 00:32
No la, I got your point. Must see case by case. Some will fall through this crack as what you mentioned but 90% of the population come first. This greedy Lim obviously didn't deserve it. His reason is not enough cash as he cannot meet the COV of 60k. Miraculously, he has 8% of cash (and 112.5k of CPF) which amount to 60k to buy condo. Obviously he is cheating his way through. Got 60k buy condo, no 60k to pay COV if he wants an AFFORDABLE house.

If he took $600k loan @80%, the price of his condo was $750K. In 2009 without all the CMs yet, 5% cash payment would be only $37.5K. Remaining 15% by CPF. How come $60k cash?:beats-me-man:

fclim
09-09-11, 00:38
Oh.. Maybe stamp duty as well. But, perhaps he borrowed to pay stamp duty and then pay back after reimbursed from CPF.

thomastansb
09-09-11, 09:59
Stamp duties and misc fees...



If he took $600k loan @80%, the price of his condo was $750K. In 2009 without all the CMs yet, 5% cash payment would be only $37.5K. Remaining 15% by CPF. How come $60k cash?:beats-me-man:

taggy
14-09-11, 10:09
ST Forum

Couple raring to start family face housing woes
LIKE Mr Lim Chong Wee, I too cannot realise my dreams of owning an HDB flat ("Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling"; last Wednesday).

I bought a small private studio apartment about five years ago when I was single and below 35 years old. The flat is under my name. However, I got married last year and am seeking to move to a bigger place for my wife and myself.

We are both Singaporeans and we wanted to apply for a bigger matrimonial flat jointly to start a family.

I have been trying to sell my current apartment at valuation so as to be eligible for an executive condominium (EC). However, HDB rules state that you have to wait 30 months after selling your property. Why is there a need for this 30-month clause?

Where does the HDB expect us to live in the interim? Do they expect us to join the already heated-up rental market and rent a flat while waiting out the 30 months?

The EC itself takes a few years to complete and that would further extend our waiting time.

B. Elamaaran

---------------------

Priority for families buying first home
MR LIM Chong Wee ('Stuck in housing limbo despite higher ceiling'; last Wednesday) and Mr B. Elamaaran ('Couple raring to start family face housing
woes'; Forum Online, Monday) are private property owners wishing to buy an executive condominium.

Both welcome the revised income ceiling of $12,000 but cannot yet apply as they face a 30-month waiting period.

This is not a new rule. It was introduced to accord greater priority to families buying their first home, as they have more pressing housing needs compared to existing home owners.

We seek both writers' understanding for such a rule.

Chan-Wong Jee Choo Lily (Mrs)
Deputy Director (Policy and Property)
Housing & Development Board

---------------------

iwantgizmos
14-09-11, 11:30
ppl should seek for a revision to this 30 mth rule...
2.5 yrs too long laaa...

kane
14-09-11, 22:12
now that they have applied the $12k rule to launches before August, perhaps the next thing they might revise is to say for buyers of EC, they must sell their private apt, just like when private property owners buy HDB, they must sell their private property.

devilplate
14-09-11, 22:17
now that they have applied the $12k rule to launches before August, perhaps the next thing they might revise is to say for buyers of EC, they must sell their private apt, just like when private property owners buy HDB, they must sell their private property.
????

Must dispose pte ppty at least 30mths before one can buy ec wat.....

kane
14-09-11, 23:05
????

Must dispose pte ppty at least 30mths before one can buy ec wat.....

is in they can sell after they've committed to buying the EC. but to sell it 2.5 years in advance, that's a little hard for people to plan.

devilplate
14-09-11, 23:08
is in they can sell after they've committed to buying the EC. but to sell it 2.5 years in advance, that's a little hard for people to plan.
This rule is to discourage pte owners to downgrade to new ec....they can swap wif resale ec or resale hdb

kane
14-09-11, 23:19
This rule is to discourage pte owners to downgrade to new ec....they can swap wif resale ec or resale hdb

frankly, i've seen original EC owners driving bigger cars than those in pte condos... those are the ones that should be discouraged.

howgozit
14-09-11, 23:40
frankly, i've seen original EC owners driving bigger cars than those in pte condos... those are the ones that should be discouraged.

I have seen HDB owners driving bigger cars than those in landed ppty as well .... I think cars are not a good gauge of a person's wealth. Unless its a supercar like a Ferrari or Lamborghini... that will require some real financial muscle.

devilplate
15-09-11, 00:17
frankly, i've seen original EC owners driving bigger cars than those in pte condos... those are the ones that should be discouraged.
Nid to noe their big cars r paid in full or 90% loan:D

kane
15-09-11, 00:25
Nid to noe their big cars r paid in full or 90% loan:D

2 big cars ah. assuming 50% financing on each car, that'll equate to one fully paid big car? haha.

let's think about some of those penthouses in the ECs, is it honestly affordable for someone who draws 10 or 12k a month?? maybe for someone who draws 10 to 12k a month basic but a variable component of 150k per year perhaps.

hyenergix
15-09-11, 07:44
I have seen HDB owners driving bigger cars than those in landed ppty as well .... I think cars are not a good gauge of a person's wealth. Unless its a supercar like a Ferrari or Lamborghini... that will require some real financial muscle.

Actually pre-owned sports cars are not that expensive. Equivalent to buying an MM. E.g.

http://www.sgcarmart.com/used_cars/info.php?ID=203153&DL=1287

ysyap
15-09-11, 07:59
Actually pre-owned sports cars are not that expensive. Equivalent to buying an MM. E.g.

http://www.sgcarmart.com/used_cars/info.php?ID=203153&DL=1287Not expensive? You print money in your study room izzit?

hyenergix
15-09-11, 08:09
Not expensive? You print money in your study room izzit?

Many pp can afford these sports cars. Juz tt their depreciation is high, so not many r interested. U can estate e cost urself n b surprised tt they r not as bad as u assume. I wish i can print money like Ben.

ysyap
15-09-11, 08:22
Many pp can afford these sports cars. Juz tt their depreciation is high, so not many r interested. U can estate e cost urself n b surprised tt they r not as bad as u assume. I wish i can print money like Ben.Maybe huh? But I'm not into sports car otherwise will be tempted to drive fast fast and so endanger my life! :p

kane
15-09-11, 08:25
Cars should be viewed from an annual depreciation angle. It would be unwise to look at it from an absolute quantum angle.

DC33_2008
15-09-11, 08:34
Otherwise, ECs is considered as subsidized flat as compared to PC will also start going up and more singaporeans will be unhappy.
ppl should seek for a revision to this 30 mth rule...
2.5 yrs too long laaa...

DC33_2008
15-09-11, 08:36
Saw a red ferrari two days ago. Pity the driver as the car is on low gear and you can hear it is really dragging the engine. :(
Maybe huh? But I'm not into sports car otherwise will be tempted to drive fast fast and so endanger my life! :p

hyenergix
15-09-11, 08:47
Saw a red ferrari two days ago. Pity the driver as the car is on low gear and you can hear it is really dragging the engine. :(

They deliberately drag to attract attention.

howgozit
15-09-11, 13:44
Many pp can afford these sports cars. Juz tt their depreciation is high, so not many r interested. U can estate e cost urself n b surprised tt they r not as bad as u assume. I wish i can print money like Ben.

I think most people can ill afford rather than really afford a Ferrari (even a pre-owned one)

Unless you have $4-500k to splurge at one go, taking max loan against the remaining lifespan of a Ferrari will set you back by at least $7-8k/mth in instalments, this is true even for a 7-8yro Ferrari becoz you have only 2-3yrs to repay $300+k. The high cost of insurance which usually only cover TPFT hasn't even been factored in yet.

This money all goes down the drain.... so not many people can actually stomach this kind of extravagance. Unfortunately those who can comfortably afford it usually don't know how to drive it properly. I cringe each time I hear those tai-tais crashing the gears of this beautiful machine.

Regulators
15-09-11, 14:12
Insurance for ferrari close to 10k a year, not taking into consideration high fuel consumption and high maintenance cost.
I think most people can ill afford rather than really afford a Ferrari (even a pre-owned one)

Unless you have $4-500k to splurge at one go, taking max loan against the remaining lifespan of a Ferrari will set you back by at least $7-8k/mth in instalments, this is true even for a 7-8yro Ferrari becoz you have only 2-3yrs to repay $300+k. The high cost of insurance which usually only cover TPFT hasn't even been factored in yet.

This money all goes down the drain.... so not many people can actually stomach this kind of extravagance. Unfortunately those who can comfortably afford it usually don't know how to drive it properly. I cringe each time I hear those tai-tais crashing the gears of this beautiful machine.

hyenergix
15-09-11, 14:17
I think most people can ill afford rather than really afford a Ferrari (even a pre-owned one)

Unless you have $4-500k to splurge at one go, taking max loan against the remaining lifespan of a Ferrari will set you back by at least $7-8k/mth in instalments, this is true even for a 7-8yro Ferrari becoz you have only 2-3yrs to repay $300+k. The high cost of insurance which usually only cover TPFT hasn't even been factored in yet.

This money all goes down the drain.... so not many people can actually stomach this kind of extravagance. Unfortunately those who can comfortably afford it usually don't know how to drive it properly. I cringe each time I hear those tai-tais crashing the gears of this beautiful machine.

Top 20% average household income is $12,818. Still can afford a $400k sports car like porsche with 10 year COE.

hyenergix
15-09-11, 14:26
Insurance for ferrari close to 10k a year, not taking into consideration high fuel consumption and high maintenance cost.

These r usu not everday cars. Mileage is quite low.

U only live once. Enjoy e wind in ur hair by driving w roof down, while u still have ur hair :D

But i prefer to spend my $ on properties... ;)

howgozit
15-09-11, 14:36
Top 20% average household income is $12,818. Still can afford a $400k sports car like porsche with 10 year COE.

Ah... Porshe not in the same class as Ferrari or Lamborghini already.

But performance wise I would take a Porsche GT3RS anytime over a Lambo or Ferrari.

hyenergix
15-09-11, 14:42
Ah... Porshe not in the same class as Ferrari or Lamborghini already.

But performance wise I would take a Porsche GT3RS anytime over a Lambo or Ferrari.

They cater to different tastes, not necessary class.

howgozit
15-09-11, 14:45
These r usu not everday cars. Mileage is quite low.

U only live once. Enjoy e wind in ur hair by driving w roof down, while u still have ur hair :D

But i prefer to spend my $ on properties... ;)


Totally agree, we only live once.

It has always been my dream to own a Ferrari but kena lectured by the wife. The only "sports" car she would allow was the Porsche Panamera or the Maserati Quattroporte, that to me is missing the point altogether.

But say only lah... playing with supercars in Singapore is reserved for the super rich.

howgozit
15-09-11, 14:47
They cater to different tastes, not necessary class.

I meant price class.

ysyap
15-09-11, 15:18
I think most people can ill afford rather than really afford a Ferrari (even a pre-owned one)

Unless you have $4-500k to splurge at one go, taking max loan against the remaining lifespan of a Ferrari will set you back by at least $7-8k/mth in instalments, this is true even for a 7-8yro Ferrari becoz you have only 2-3yrs to repay $300+k. The high cost of insurance which usually only cover TPFT hasn't even been factored in yet.

This money all goes down the drain.... so not many people can actually stomach this kind of extravagance. Unfortunately those who can comfortably afford it usually don't know how to drive it properly. I cringe each time I hear those tai-tais crashing the gears of this beautiful machine.Worse case is buying a Rolls Royce Phantom. At 2mil, the depreciation is more than 100k per year. Most people don't even earn that amount! A penthouse on wheels! :doh:

hyenergix
15-09-11, 21:23
When you are a tycoon being chauffeured in a RR, $2 mil is peanuts.

devilplate
16-09-11, 00:21
Totally agree, we only live once.

It has always been my dream to own a Ferrari but kena lectured by the wife. The only "sports" car she would allow was the Porsche Panamera or the Maserati Quattroporte, that to me is missing the point altogether.

But say only lah... playing with supercars in Singapore is reserved for the super rich.
I will be contented wif just a zippy audi ttrs:D