View Full Version : Sitting on HDB with good gains now, should I sell?
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 10:38
Hi everyone,
Currently have a 5 room HDB (improved space with corridor bought) in Kembangan. Its sitting on some nice capital gains now. I think we can sell it for $700,000 now if we are patient and not urgent to sell. Profit made if sold at that price will be $300,000 or 75%. Property agents have been calling us very frequently.
And incidentally, we are moving to another condo anyway, which is soon to finish construction. So the question is, should I sell it? or should I rent it out? (I am allowed to rent it out if I so wish because we would have stayed in it for 5 years already).
rattydrama
19-07-11, 11:48
What you going to do with the money you would have profit from your sale?
Do you expect the CCR price to appreciate further? If yes, why not sell and buy CCR?
I sold mine despite many here said HDB is a cash cow and so far I am happy as the gain is much more.
kingkong1984
19-07-11, 12:03
What you going to do with the money you would have profit from your sale?
Do you expect the CCR price to appreciate further? If yes, why not sell and buy CCR?
I sold mine despite many here said HDB is a cash cow and so far I am happy as the gain is much more.
sell only when u need the money. Otherwise, its a fixed asset.
rattydrama
19-07-11, 12:11
sell only when u need the money. Otherwise, its a fixed asset.
depends...if money can work harder for me, why trap in one?
phantom_opera
19-07-11, 12:13
sell is easy, buy back is difficult :tsk-tsk:
and the flooding of BTOs this year will only result in resale market supply in another 8 years (3y construction + 5y MOP), all it does is just to reduce citizen's demand but there are always people that cannot wait for 3y
Cyberknight
19-07-11, 12:51
Hdb flat is the only asset that creditors, in the event of bankrupt, cannot touch.
Hdb flat is the only asset that creditors, in the event of bankrupt, cannot touch.
It is also the only asset that you cannot use as collateral...so wat is the diff?
fully agreed. rent it out and collect passive income monthly.:rolleyes:
Hdb flat is the only asset that creditors, in the event of bankrupt, cannot touch.
Many reasons to keep or sell as stated by many here.
To me, 5-rm HDB is a rather big public fixed asset compared to 3-rm type.
Hence less maneuverability unless you have good plans for it.
If sell, you gain on having hot cash but need to have a good strategy to use it either passively or actively.
In the end it bogs down to yr surrounding circumstances, your future plans & the evolving market.
if you sell now, u cannot buy back later if you still own a pte...
i will keep it as a back up... in the mean time, earn rental from it. In the event if you choose not to work, you still have some passive income from rental to help with the mortgage of your private.
Yes dont sell, once sold u cannot buy back if u have pte pty.
Keep for next gen or wait for enbloc n meantime just collect rent loh!
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 14:13
Rent out got its own headaches leh. Must get good tenant (which is a question mark). And if don't sell, that means the gains are not monetized. Like right now, at most rent $2,000 per month, maybe just a bit more? At that rate, imagine how long have to rent to make $300,000?
And it will have its own set of expenses. Must maintain, etc. And how much more will it go up? Think the new minister is determined not to allow HDB flat prices to go up. See the recent released BTO, 5 room flat released at under $300,000.
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 14:38
And I was thinking maybe sell already, wait patiently for next downturn before going in again. Sooner or later it will come mah. Property cannot always only go up only. Sure will come down at some point in time too.
Eldenfirefly,
We think alike!
We recently bought a FH terrace and then was deciding whether to sell off our condo which has been fully paid-up. The rental plus our CPF would be enough to cover our monthly installment for the terrace. In the end, we sold the condo at >80% profit.
I do not relish the idea of being a landlord, and I don't like to think what damage the tenants will do to our lovely place. But for your case, a HDB may not be so easily bought next time, so you should really consider carefully. If mine was a HDB, I would probably not sell it.
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 15:01
Eldenfirefly,
We think alike!
We recently bought a FH terrace and then was deciding whether to sell off our condo which has been fully paid-up. The rental plus our CPF would be enough to cover our monthly installment for the terrace. In the end, we sold the condo at >80% profit.
I do not relish the idea of being a landlord, and I don't like to think what damage the tenants will do to our lovely place. But for your case, a HDB may not be so easily bought next time, so you should really consider carefully. If mine was a HDB, I would probably not sell it.
Next time if want to go back into property market again, just buy private property already lor. :)
Next time if want to go back into property market again, just buy private property already lor. :)
I think you have already made up your mind and just want to see if there are really good reasons to hold that HDB.
If I were you, sell. You bought your new condo at the lowest point. You are now selling your HDB at the highest point. Keep the cash and wait to see if you can buy again when price falls. If not, the cash will come in handy should you need it. You will feel much more secure living in your new condo with some cash buffer.
Even if your HDB prices go up later and you have already sold it, the regret will be a lot lesser than if the price drops tomorrow.
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 16:52
My mind 70% made up. :) Yeah, want to see if got good strong reasons which I have missed out that will cause me to change my mind. So far, some of these reasons I have considered before. But I can invest the money I receive and wait for the next property cycle. Its not like the money I receive will be doing absolutely nothing.
I think if want to invest properly into property, must have times when cash out, and other times when dare to go in. If just buy and buy and keep on buying, then you never ever cash out, then what's the point?
Alternatively, did you consider selling your condo if the gains are much better than your HDB. Should prices drop, you might even be able to get a landed property or a better condo.:)
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 17:42
I did, but my wife will kill me. hee.
After a while, you want to experience some of the fruits of the good decisions and higher earning power you have achieved. So, if we do an about turn now and sell our new home now, we will stick to living in our current HDB flat. So, no change to our living standards. Yet, we can well afford better, far far better.
I estimate that if we sold both places now, and plus our existing combined income, we could definitely get a landed property somewhere. But if we do that, we will be house rich and cash poor.
So, this is kind of a compromise. We are still raising our living standards, which most of us want to do. But we are not living beyond our means, or even at the limit to our means. We are not banking all or nothing on a property boom either.
Base on current rules (I'm assuming that your hdb was purchased before CM4), I will sell the condo if it is yielding high profits for you instead of the HDB.
Reason is that your HDB was purchase under old ruling b4 CM4, so even if you sell your condo now and want to buy a condo again next time, you can still do it. (You need not sell your HDB before getting another pte ppty.)
I confirmed the above with HDB. Go check it out.
If you do the reverse, sell HDB and keep condo, you can only buy pte next time base on currrent rules. If you want to buy HDB again, you have to dispose all your pte ppty.
To make things clearer, I have exteracted an excerpt from the email by a HDB officer to me.
" Flat owners who purchased a flat from the open market without a CPF Housing Grant (for resale applications submitted before 30 Aug 2010), there is no need to satisfy the required MOP for their flats before acquiring private residential property. However, the flat owners and occupiers must continue to stay in their HDB flat after the purchase of the private residential property unless prior approval from HDB is obtained to sublet the whole flat."
I hope this helps. If not, you should try and write in to HDB and ask.
Just make sure you don't squander the 300k profits away after you sold it. Some poeple after get windfall will go buy LV, Prada, Gucci, rolex, maserati, luxury cruise holiday, dine $1200 fish dish. :p
phantom_opera
19-07-11, 18:08
Remember the folk tale about a chicken that can lay one golden egg daily? You are killing the chicken now.
To add to azeoprop's comment, don't gamble in Sands or Sentosa :hell-hath-no-fury:
And you might be tempted to buy Thomson Grand soon with your 300k in your account yielding 0.5% :tongue3:
I will sell my hdb. hdb is too risky an asset for me. Hdb rules suka suka change. Now can materialize the gains why not. 300k I will rather get a studio for investment when market crash..
Eldenfirefly
19-07-11, 18:38
Just make sure you don't squander the 300k profits away after you sold it. Some poeple after get windfall will go buy LV, Prada, Gucci, rolex, maserati, luxury cruise holiday, dine $1200 fish dish. :p
Haha, thanks for the caution. No I won't squander it. Upgrade a bit means live in a condo, but it doesn't mean I go and buy Parda, rolex, maserati and such. :) I am an employee, so I know how hard it is to make money. I won't squander it.
Remember the folk tale about a chicken that can lay one golden egg daily? You are killing the chicken now.
To add to azeoprop's comment, don't gamble in Sands or Sentosa :hell-hath-no-fury:
And you might be tempted to buy Thomson Grand soon with your 300k in your account yielding 0.5% :tongue3:
Thomson Grand is calling you...buy buy buy! :D
Wah, sure super high upside potential as MRT coming & price will sure rise to CCR price by closing the gap! :p
Thomson Grand is calling you...buy buy buy! :D
I'm soooo.... regret that I have sold my Bishan 5 rooms flat 12 yrs ago for an EC. Profit only 100K as compared to now which can easily gain >300K. I should have waited for about 2 months later because during that time ppty market crashed and some of the pte ppty became cheaper than the EC that I bought and I still need to pay the 25% levy on 2nd purchase of HDB ppty. Just my luck, sighhhh..... We cannot hold 2 HDB properties, now it is impossible for me to buy back the Bishan flat because the price has shooted up by so much. :banghead:
Rent out got its own headaches leh. Must get good tenant (which is a question mark). And if don't sell, that means the gains are not monetized. Like right now, at most rent $2,000 per month, maybe just a bit more? At that rate, imagine how long have to rent to make $300,000?
And it will have its own set of expenses. Must maintain, etc. And how much more will it go up? Think the new minister is determined not to allow HDB flat prices to go up. See the recent released BTO, 5 room flat released at under $300,000.My thoughts are slightly different from you. If I hold my HDB and rent out for 2 years, I'll receive 2 years' worth of rent = 24 x 2 400 = $57 600 and if I so decide to sell then, when market is still good, I may well gain not just $300k but $380k so in total, I'll get $380k + $57 600 = $437 600 profit instead of just $300k. :D
Then again if your mentality is to consistently invest in properties, then yes you have to sell high and wait to buy during the next low! As such, you'll lose that 2 years of rental yield and capital gains!
My mentality is I'd keep this HDB and sit on its rental yield as well as capital appreciation unless I urgently need the cash because I spotted a private condo with a higher potential for price appreciation than the current HDB. :spliff:
Here is my slight dilemma. If I can cash out $650k from my HDB which can potentially fetch about $2 600 in rental every month, and I saw a MM PC costing $600k and can potentially fetch the same amount or slightly less in monthly rental, should I sell my HDB? :confused:
kingkong1984
19-07-11, 22:31
Same rent, bigger space is the way to go. Selling houses is like selling pork. One is in kg and the other square meter. If smaller but can give more cap appreciation, go for it.
Here is my slight dilemma. If I can cash out $650k from my HDB which can potentially fetch about $2 600 in rental every month, and I saw a MM PC costing $600k and can potentially fetch the same amount or slightly less in monthly rental, should I sell my HDB? :confused:
Is the MM freehold? If it is, it's a no brainer.
If the MM is new LH, as least you get a fresh start to the 99LH. Your HDB must have run out a good no. of years.
Think long term....:D
Allthepies
19-07-11, 23:48
Here is my slight dilemma. If I can cash out $650k from my HDB which can potentially fetch about $2 600 in rental every month, and I saw a MM PC costing $600k and can potentially fetch the same amount or slightly less in monthly rental, should I sell my HDB? :confused:
hdb is the way to go, mm little room for further capital appreciation:2cents:
I'd sell the HDB and invest in another private property after sale. I won't wait till next downturn because you'll get frustrated waiting for it to happen.
1. I'll move to the new condo
2. I'll sell the HdB for at least SGD300k gain
3. I'll buy one that I can comfortably pay a downpayment within my means for a resale private property that I can rent out. Even if there's market crash, you already enjoy rental to compensate
4. I'll continue to save to buy in the next downturn
Yes, there's high risk but it's to be calculated one. But if you prefer lesser risk, then don't sell you HDB.
Haha, thanks for the caution. No I won't squander it. Upgrade a bit means live in a condo, but it doesn't mean I go and buy Parda, rolex, maserati and such. :) I am an employee, so I know how hard it is to make money. I won't squander it.
and most importantly avoid the casinos....:scared-1:
Thank you everybody for your suggestion. Forgot to add that the HDB is for rent. Not staying inside. It does however provide an option of returning to stay in HDB when I'm older??? :scared-3:
Should pamper oneself when old. Should be staying in nice but may not be a big condo and use the rental of properties (HDB and private condos) to have great life for leisure, etc.
Thank you everybody for your suggestion. Forgot to add that the HDB is for rent. Not staying inside. It does however provide an option of returning to stay in HDB when I'm older??? :scared-3:
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 09:50
Getting a good tenant can be quite a headache. Worried about that.
Got a few options now.
a) Monthly instalment is around $1000 for this HDB. Rent it out for say $2100. I will get $1100 each month. Potential appreciation, but also may not go up much. Next time want to buy private property, will face the issue of selling this HDB again. I don't really benefit much from the big gains I have made in this property. Not until I eventually sell it. But if I don't sell it now, then when will I sell it? :)
b) Sell this HDB. get $300,000 profit at least. Invest it plus original capital of say $100,000, even if get just 4%, will get $16,000 per year. Wait for property market to crash, then buy private property. Property market don't crash, then will continue waiting and investing my money wisely.
c) Raise my bets in the property market. Sell HDB. With capital and profits, Enough for 40% downpayment to buy a 1 million private condo. Maybe can rent out at $3000 or even $3500. My exposure to property market is now even bigger, plus my outstanding loan is now $600,000 instead of $260,000. But if can rent out at $3500, then less off the bigger monthly instalment (maybe $1500), will have $2000 cash inflow. But if property market crash after that. Will be :tongue3:
So, which which? :confused:
Your nett cash is less than $2000 if your $1mil apartment can fetch $3500 rental. It is less heartache to rent out an older flat than a new HDB flat. Your nett rental yield from HDB is higher than a new apartment.
Getting a good tenant can be quite a headache. Worried about that.
Got a few options now.
a) Monthly instalment is around $1000 for this HDB. Rent it out for say $2100. I will get $1100 each month. Potential appreciation, but also may not go up much. Next time want to buy private property, will face the issue of selling this HDB again. I don't really benefit much from the big gains I have made in this property. Not until I eventually sell it. But if I don't sell it now, then when will I sell it? :)
b) Sell this HDB. get $300,000 profit at least. Invest it plus original capital of say $100,000, even if get just 4%, will get $16,000 per year. Wait for property market to crash, then buy private property. Property market don't crash, then will continue waiting and investing my money wisely.
c) Raise my bets in the property market. Sell HDB. With capital and profits, Enough for 40% downpayment to buy a 1 million private condo. Maybe can rent out at $3000 or even $3500. My exposure to property market is now even bigger, plus my outstanding loan is now $600,000 instead of $260,000. But if can rent out at $3500, then less off the bigger monthly instalment (maybe $1500), will have $2000 cash inflow. But if property market crash after that. Will be :tongue3:
So, which which? :confused:
Getting a good tenant can be quite a headache. Worried about that.
Got a few options now.
a) Monthly instalment is around $1000 for this HDB. Rent it out for say $2100. I will get $1100 each month. Potential appreciation, but also may not go up much. Next time want to buy private property, will face the issue of selling this HDB again. I don't really benefit much from the big gains I have made in this property. Not until I eventually sell it. But if I don't sell it now, then when will I sell it? :)
b) Sell this HDB. get $300,000 profit at least. Invest it plus original capital of say $100,000, even if get just 4%, will get $16,000 per year. Wait for property market to crash, then buy private property. Property market don't crash, then will continue waiting and investing my money wisely.
c) Raise my bets in the property market. Sell HDB. With capital and profits, Enough for 40% downpayment to buy a 1 million private condo. Maybe can rent out at $3000 or even $3500. My exposure to property market is now even bigger, plus my outstanding loan is now $600,000 instead of $260,000. But if can rent out at $3500, then less off the bigger monthly instalment (maybe $1500), will have $2000 cash inflow. But if property market crash after that. Will be :tongue3:
So, which which? :confused:
er... i dun noe the market rate...
but based on hdb price of 700k, renting $2100/mth, gross yield is only 3.6%.
Indeed if u confident to get 4% based on scenario (b), then i think sell hdb lah.
But hor, hdb can have possible capital gain or loss, similarly your scenario (b) may have capital loss also? er... then have to weight which is higher risk...
As for scenario (c), u must be strong believer the market can continue run up up up lah :D
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:15
Net rental yield is lower from a percentage point of view. But net cash every month is higher. Like I said in my example, a 1 million apartment or condo. if can rent out at $3500, while the housing instalment is $1500. Then net cash every month is $2000.
This compares to net cash of $1100 very month if rent out the HDB. And I will be swopping an old HDB for a less old apartment/condo.
As an investor, do you want an absolute return that is higher, or would you care about a percentage yield which you can't touch and you can't use.
There is also the other option of sell, take profit. invest it wisely to get $16,000 or more each year, and wait for property market to crash.
Remember the CPF money use for purchase of HDB is going back too. It is a wise choice if your yield is less than 2.5/4%.
Net rental yield is lower from a percentage point of view. But net cash every month is higher. Like I said in my example, a 1 million apartment or condo. if can rent out at $3500, while the housing instalment is $1500. Then net cash every month is $2000.
This compares to net cash of $1100 very month if rent out the HDB. And I will be swopping an old HDB for a less old apartment/condo.
As an investor, do you want an absolute return that is higher, or would you care about a percentage yield which you can't touch and you can't use.
There is also the other option of sell, take profit. invest it wisely to get $16,000 or more each year, and wait for property market to crash.
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:24
er... i dun noe the market rate...
but based on hdb price of 700k, renting $2100/mth, gross yield is only 3.6%.
Indeed if u confident to get 4% based on scenario (b), then i think sell hdb lah.
But hor, hdb can have possible capital gain or loss, similarly your scenario (b) may have capital loss also? er... then have to weight which is higher risk...
As for scenario (c), u must be strong believer the market can continue run up up up lah :D
The scenario (B) not totally risk free. But if aiming for something like 4% rather than 10% per year, then the risk is quite low. Bond unit trusts, short term duration bond unit trusts, fixed income funds all got a good chance of getting that, maybe mix in a small bit of equity unit trusts to boost the returns a bit. Not gauranteed, but then again, property prices also not gauranteed to go up forever right?
In a way, its a bit like trying to time the property market. But I am not totally out of the market anyway, because I still have another property (condo) which I am living in.
Your nett cash is less than $2000 if your $1mil apartment can fetch $3500 rental. It is less heartache to rent out an older flat than a new HDB flat. Your nett rental yield from HDB is higher than a new apartment.The temptation of liquidating your HDB is forever a haunting idea that will plague you until you sell... hahaha! I think I'll keep that option until I really need cash... :o
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:26
Remember the CPF money use for purchase of HDB is going back too. It is a wise choice if your yield is less than 2.5/4%.
The amount going back to CPF quite small. I think just $80,000 max. A far bigger amount will be cash.
Net rental yield is lower from a percentage point of view. But net cash every month is higher. Like I said in my example, a 1 million apartment or condo. if can rent out at $3500, while the housing instalment is $1500. Then net cash every month is $2000.
aiya, if confident prop market to continue run up, then mai tu liao, hoot, bet your last $ on a biggest property to get maximum absolute return. :D
Theory is high risk = high gain, also possible high loss
As an investor, do you want an absolute return that is higher, or would you care about a percentage yield which you can't touch and you can't use.
i think if cash flow is not a problem, those money deemed cannot touch actually went in to reduce outstanding loan, to me, that is good enuff as money earned. :)
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:28
The temptation of liquidating your HDB is forever a haunting idea that will plague you until you sell... hahaha! I think I'll keep that option until I really need cash... :o
But its not like I intend to spend it all away right? If I intend to invest it wisely, or reinvest into another property sometime down the road. Then that money will always be there. In fact, when you really need cash, then trying to sell your property to get that cash if probably a bad idea, because it takes time to sell your property, so if you are perssed for time and sell it fast fast, then you will probably be selling it at distressed prices.
I did not have chance to buy a HDB flat and that is something that I envy of the hdb leasees. So. Keep it.
The temptation of liquidating your HDB is forever a haunting idea that will plague you until you sell... hahaha! I think I'll keep that option until I really need cash... :o
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:35
aiya, if confident prop market to continue run up, then mai tu liao, hoot, bet your last $ on a biggest property to get maximum absolute return. :D
Theory is high risk = high gain, also possible high loss
Actually, I am not confident it will keep on going up forever. Everything got cycles, stock market, property market. What goes up will eventually come down. Key thing is must not get too greedy. Same for when it eventually does come down. Overall Singapore is getting richer and richer. So, property prices will never drop back to how they were like last time. Drop 15% to 20% is a lot already.
I am leaning towards either option (A) or (B). More of (B). Option (C) is high risk and putting all your faith in the property market. Option (B) means I will take profit now, invest wisely, and wait for opportunities again. Maybe must wait 2 to 3 years. who knows. But the money to buy back in is still there mah.
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:37
I did not have chance to buy a HDB flat and that is something that I envy of the hdb leasees. So. Keep it.
If you are in private housing already. Sooner or later, you will have to sell your HDB. Take my example. Even if I don't sell now, the next time if I want to upgrade from my existing condo, then I will be forced to sell it already. Its just postponing the inevitable. Unless I say I will stay in my existing condo forever? hmmm.
I am leaning towards either option (A) or (B). More of (B). Option (C) is high risk and putting all your faith in the property market. Option (B) means I will take profit now, invest wisely, and wait for opportunities again. Maybe must wait 2 to 3 years. who knows. But the money to buy back in is still there mah.
Usually, personally, I will go for option A. But when u mention 700k vs 2.1k/month, then I will choose option B. I had thought hdb rental at least also have 4% gross yield?
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 10:52
Its probably a generic percentage. If the HDB is $500,000 to 600,000, then the gross rental yield should be about there. But some areas are more expensive than others. Yet, even though they are more expensive, their rental got ceiling. Ultimately, its still a HDB flat, its not a condo with its own swimming pool. So, what's the limit you can push that rent up till?
There are probably some people who are able to rent out their HDB flat at $2300 to $2500 per month but that's pushing it and you need to be lucky. If I can afford to pay $2500 per month for rent, I might as well pay a bit more and rent a condo instead.
Why do you need to sell your HDB flat when you upgrade your condo.
I thought it applies only to those with private property who wants to buy HDB flat.
"You can own private property (unless you are applying for a CPF Housing Grant and/or an HDB loan).
However, you, your spouse and any occupiers listed in the resale application must dispose of any interest in any private residential property within 6 months from the completion of the purchase of the resale flat."
If you are in private housing already. Sooner or later, you will have to sell your HDB. Take my example. Even if I don't sell now, the next time if I want to upgrade from my existing condo, then I will be forced to sell it already. Its just postponing the inevitable. Unless I say I will stay in my existing condo forever? hmmm.
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 11:19
Why do you need to sell your HDB flat when you upgrade your condo.
I thought it applies only to those with private property who wants to buy HDB flat.
"You can own private property (unless you are applying for a CPF Housing Grant and/or an HDB loan).
However, you, your spouse and any occupiers listed in the resale application must dispose of any interest in any private residential property within 6 months from the completion of the purchase of the resale flat."
Ah my mistake then. But HDB is just like any other property mah. Why insist on holding it if the price is good? No matter what, it will never go above an equivalent condo in price.
Actually, I am not confident it will keep on going up forever. Everything got cycles, stock market, property market. What goes up will eventually come down. Key thing is must not get too greedy. Same for when it eventually does come down. Overall Singapore is getting richer and richer. So, property prices will never drop back to how they were like last time. Drop 15% to 20% is a lot already.
I am leaning towards either option (A) or (B). More of (B). Option (C) is high risk and putting all your faith in the property market. Option (B) means I will take profit now, invest wisely, and wait for opportunities again. Maybe must wait 2 to 3 years. who knows. But the money to buy back in is still there mah.So if you go for B, you mentioned the returns is up to $16k a year as opposed to rental yield of about $1100 x 12 = $13 200 - agent fee = $12k. Its slightly higher returns but is it guaranteed? You are also forfeiting the future price appreciation of that HDB should you sell it after 2 years. Then again this argument is never ending! 2 years later you will again say wait for another 2 years for further price increase... :D
Ultimately it boils down to what you intend to do with the cash-out monies. Rental is an attractive concept but it is important to note the illusionary aspects of it and weigh rental against the capital gain that can be locked in (as well as opportunity cost of not unlocking the gain) at the time of consideration.
IMHO, rental and capital gains are transmutable and one should not be attached to either in the course of decision-making from an investment point of view.
Ah my mistake then. But HDB is just like any other property mah. Why insist on holding it if the price is good? No matter what, it will never go above an equivalent condo in price.
There are probably some people who are able to rent out their HDB flat at $2300 to $2500 per month but that's pushing it and you need to be lucky. If I can afford to pay $2500 per month for rent, I might as well pay a bit more and rent a condo instead.A $2 500 rental HDB is probably big but a $2 500 PC gets you a miserable sized PC so bigger families or those who like space will still go for HDB. Don't have to worry of that part!
Net rental yield is lower from a percentage point of view. But net cash every month is higher. Like I said in my example, a 1 million apartment or condo. if can rent out at $3500, while the housing instalment is $1500. Then net cash every month is $2000.
This compares to net cash of $1100 very month if rent out the HDB. And I will be swopping an old HDB for a less old apartment/condo.
There is still the conservancy charges for HDB at about $80/mth vs the maintenance fee for condo at about $300/mth that you have not factored!
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 11:57
So if you go for B, you mentioned the returns is up to $16k a year as opposed to rental yield of about $1100 x 12 = $13 200 - agent fee = $12k. Its slightly higher returns but is it guaranteed? You are also forfeiting the future price appreciation of that HDB should you sell it after 2 years. Then again this argument is never ending! 2 years later you will again say wait for another 2 years for further price increase... :D
Yeah lor. And rental returns or capital appreciation of property is not gauranteed either mah. If you lose a tenant, and take 3 months to get another, that's 3 months opportunity cost. Property can also go up or go down mah. :)
Yeah lor. And rental returns or capital appreciation of property is not gauranteed either mah. If you lose a tenant, and take 3 months to get another, that's 3 months opportunity cost. Property can also go up or go down mah. :)Of course you would not sell when ppty prices falls so its not in the equation at all. If you lose a tenant if they run away, you get their one month downpayment and it probably takes less than one month to find another tenant. My past experience tells me so but then again I may be wrong.
Here, it is then a question of which is more guaranteed or less risk to ensure you still get your income from your investment, unless you are a risk taker with no family commitment to go for higher risk investment! :o
My current hdb flat can also yield 300k gain, 200+% profit and though we have bought an OCR we will never sell dis hdb flat cause we see it as a cash cow. It's fully paid up and monthly can yield abt 2.4k in cash which can he used to offset e OCR monthly mortgages. And most importantly once you sell you will never be allowed to buy back any hdb flat at all if u owe private property. Worst case we leave this flat to our children n wait for en bloc. At the rate ppty pxs are rising it's gg be difficult for them to afford any
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 12:07
I heard one horror story from a friend. After the tenant left, so much damage was done to the HDB that even the 1 month also cannot help to restore it to its former state.
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 12:13
My current hdb flat can also yield 300k gain, 200+% profit and though we have bought an OCR we will never sell dis hdb flat cause we see it as a cash cow. It's fully paid up and monthly can yield abt 2.4k in cash which can he used to offset e OCR monthly mortgages. And most importantly once you sell you will never be allowed to buy back any hdb flat at all if u owe private property. Worst case we leave this flat to our children n wait for en bloc. At the rate ppty pxs are rising it's gg be difficult for them to afford any
I think often, your children will choose to live other place anyway. Their choice of where to stay is often governed by many factors. And their spouse will play a big part in that decision. And give to them, they are free to sell it, get all the gains, and just go and buy some other house in another place. It doesn't gaurantee they will stay near you.
I am not going to depend on my children much. But at the same time, I want them to know there is no such thing as a free lunch. They will appreciate things more if they have to work for it. Giving them a free house once they get married is erm .... If they are so capable, then go buy their own place. If they can't afford it, then too bad live with me and keep me company lor!
I think often, your children will choose to live other place anyway. Their choice of where to stay is often governed by many factors. And their spouse will play a big part in that decision. And give to them, they are free to sell it, get all the gains, and just go and buy some other house in another place. It doesn't gaurantee they will stay near you.
I am not going to depend on my children much. But at the same time, I want them to know there is no such thing as a free lunch. They will appreciate things more if they have to work for it. Giving them a free house once they get married is erm .... If they are so capable, then go buy their own place. If they can't afford it, then too bad live with me and keep me company lor!Hahaha... totally agreed on this. Even if I have multiple properties, I will not just give it to my kids. They have to learn through working for it. It will build their character and tenacity in the long run. :cheers1:
I'm living in an HDB flat in woodlands which was bought for <$200k years ago. It's now valued at $400k+. When our condo TOP nx year, we intend to move out & rent out the HDB flat. hubby intends to fully settle the loan outstanding by end this year. Rental income will be used to service cash portion of the condo instalment. our reasons for this move:
- if something happens such that we are not able to continue to afford living in the condo, we have the HDB flat to move back to & sell off the condo. If we sell off the HDB flat upon moving to the condo, we will have to buy it back at a much higher price so the net gains will be much smaller. also we like the size of our HDB flat and newer flats are generally much smaller.
- in the long run, pty prices will be on a general upward trend. our son will probably find difficulty buying his pty next time. he is free to sell off both properties (after we are long gone) to finance the pty of his choice. having said that, we will also not let our son know our longterm plans for him as we want him to work hard to get the stuff he wants.
basically we are very risk-averse folks. no appetite for risky options..... :sleep:
I'm living in an HDB flat in woodlands which was bought for <$200k years ago. It's now valued at $400k+. When our condo TOP nx year, we intend to move out & rent out the HDB flat. hubby intends to fully settle the loan outstanding by end this year. Rental income will be used to service cash portion of the condo instalment. our reasons for this move:
- if something happens such that we are not able to continue to afford living in the condo, we have the HDB flat to move back to & sell off the condo. If we sell off the HDB flat upon moving to the condo, we will have to buy it back at a much higher price so the net gains will be much smaller. also we like the size of our HDB flat and newer flats are generally much smaller.
- in the long run, pty prices will be on a general upward trend. our son will probably find difficulty buying his pty next time. he is free to sell off both properties (after we are long gone) to finance the pty of his choice. having said that, we will also not let our son know our longterm plans for him as we want him to work hard to get the stuff he wants.
basically we are very risk-averse folks. no appetite for risky options..... :sleep:I see that you share the same thoughts as me but I'm probably less insistent on keeping the HDB. My HDB is sitting on about 150% price gain. I like the size too and it can comfortably house my entire family should I decide to sell my condo! :spliff: I potentially need 4 bedrooms when my kids are bigger and a 4 bedder PC is pretty expensive so moving back to HDB is certainly an option! :p
There are always risks in any investment. I like to see property in terms of floor area (sf) and the rise and fall of $psf. Imagine if you have 5000sqft of property. When the property goes up by $10psf, you are looking at $50,000 increase in capital gain on top of the monthly rental income or vice versa when it falls. If one just take a snap shot of the last 50 years, Singapore property prices are going up with some corrections or downturn which is healthy. Just look at Shaw Centre and the land arouund it that Shaw usewd to own in the past and the existing site. There is so much money that they can return to the people through charity from lease of the shaw centre.
I have an uncle who bought a 3-storey semi-D when their kids are with them. They are becoming lonely when one by one got married. The house is too big for two of them and getting old to manage the place. I suppose it is good to have a smaller place for old age. One may spend time outside the home at the children's place or with friends when grow old. I am not sure it this is true as I am far from it.
I see that you share the same thoughts as me but I'm probably less insistent on keeping the HDB. My HDB is sitting on about 150% price gain. I like the size too and it can comfortably house my entire family should I decide to sell my condo! :spliff: I potentially need 4 bedrooms when my kids are bigger and a 4 bedder PC is pretty expensive so moving back to HDB is certainly an option! :p
I have an uncle who bought a 3-storey semi-D when their kids are with them. They are becoming lonely when one by one got married. The house is too big for two of them and getting old to manage the place. I suppose it is good to have a smaller place for old age. One may spend time outside the home at the children's place or with friends when grow old. I am not sure it this is true as I am far from it.I'm also far from that but yes I agree with you that I'd likely get a smaller unit for old age but must at least have decent space when children and grandchildren come over to play and hang around... hahaha! :p
I am not sure how old you are. I am also far from it. I always like to invest in 2 bedder units in or near town and close to mrt stn as it is easier to rent out and hve decent rental yield. Can move in when I need it someday.
I'm also far from that but yes I agree with you that I'd likely get a smaller unit for old age but must at least have decent space when children and grandchildren come over to play and hang around... hahaha! :p
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 14:53
But there's so much political pressure now to do something about the prices of HDB going out of reach for the masses. I don't think the government will be so blur as to just let it keep on going up until the next election.
Also, its a question of affordability. Even today, new couples are complaining that even the decent resale HDB in the more matured estates are becoming out of their reach. So, how much more will HDB be allowed to appreciate given that HDB is supposed to be subsidised housing? :scared-5:
I believe that if you own an asset like a property which you are not staying in, then sometimes must be dispassionate about how you want to deal with it. If its for own stay, that's different story. You need to stay somewhere. Sell high, buy high also.
But if its a second property. Then that means you are not personally affected whether you sell it or keep it. So, it should not be a "always hold" no matter what. Property also will have cycles just like stock market have cycles. Cannot just say "this is HDB, once I sell I cannot buy back, so I must always hold on to it!"
Cannot buy HDB, then buy some other private property. Its still property! In fact, given the immense political pressures now, I think we are lucky to get away with the gains we already have. I am surprised the government haven't wacked in yet another round of measures to stop it in its tracks for good.
But you just see lor. First they will focus on the supply. Try and flood the market and see if it works. If it doesn't, then they will start to look at the regulations already. Their ultimate objective for HDB is clear, its just the way it will be implemented that is the question at this point in time.
I think often, your children will choose to live other place anyway. Their choice of where to stay is often governed by many factors. And their spouse will play a big part in that decision. And give to them, they are free to sell it, get all the gains, and just go and buy some other house in another place. It doesn't gaurantee they will stay near you.
I am not going to depend on my children much. But at the same time, I want them to know there is no such thing as a free lunch. They will appreciate things more if they have to work for it. Giving them a free house once they get married is erm .... If they are so capable, then go buy their own place. If they can't afford it, then too bad live with me and keep me company lor!
we inherite a pty from in-law and that makes our life much much easier. Appreciate their kindness too. Left with spare cash to invest another properties. Life will be more tougher next generation.:(
So, it is a better gift than leaving money behind for future generation as $ will devalue with time. Not sure what can $1mil buy 10 years from now.
we inherite a pty from in-law and that makes our life much much easier. Appreciate their kindness too. Left with spare cash to invest another properties. Life will be more tougher next generation.:(
Not sure what can $1mil buy 10 years from now.
3 room HDB flat. Hahaha:D
So, it is a better gift than leaving money behind for future generation as $ will devalue with time. Not sure what can $1mil buy 10 years from now.Those OCR MM 350 sq ft units lor which is currently commanding up to $500k or $600k! :tsk-tsk:
But there's so much political pressure now to do something about the prices of HDB going out of reach for the masses. I don't think the government will be so blur as to just let it keep on going up until the next election.
Also, its a question of affordability. Even today, new couples are complaining that even the decent resale HDB in the more matured estates are becoming out of their reach. So, how much more will HDB be allowed to appreciate given that HDB is supposed to be subsidised housing? :scared-5:
I believe that if you own an asset like a property which you are not staying in, then sometimes must be dispassionate about how you want to deal with it. If its for own stay, that's different story. You need to stay somewhere. Sell high, buy high also.
But if its a second property. Then that means you are not personally affected whether you sell it or keep it. So, it should not be a "always hold" no matter what. Property also will have cycles just like stock market have cycles. Cannot just say "this is HDB, once I sell I cannot buy back, so I must always hold on to it!"
Cannot buy HDB, then buy some other private property. Its still property! In fact, given the immense political pressures now, I think we are lucky to get away with the gains we already have. I am surprised the government haven't wacked in yet another round of measures to stop it in its tracks for good.
But you just see lor. First they will focus on the supply. Try and flood the market and see if it works. If it doesn't, then they will start to look at the regulations already. Their ultimate objective for HDB is clear, its just the way it will be implemented that is the question at this point in time.Agreed!
I doubt the govt can or will bring HDB prices down. The only way is up and they only aim to slow down the rise. Otherwise, if they bring these prices down, those thousands who bought BTO and wait 3 years because they can't afford resale will forfeit BTO and jump into resale. Also, those many thousands who have in recent months bought resale will surely complain like crazy because they bought so high and its not fair not fair not fair.... :doh: No end!
Govt is already trying to appease this group of young complainers and will certainly not want to create another group of complainers. Welcome to Singapore! :o
I think often, your children will choose to live other place anyway. Their choice of where to stay is often governed by many factors. And their spouse will play a big part in that decision. And give to them, they are free to sell it, get all the gains, and just go and buy some other house in another place. It doesn't gaurantee they will stay near you.
I am not going to depend on my children much. But at the same time, I want them to know there is no such thing as a free lunch. They will appreciate things more if they have to work for it. Giving them a free house once they get married is erm .... If they are so capable, then go buy their own place. If they can't afford it, then too bad live with me and keep me company lor!
you are right. I am not going to let my children know that we have plans for them to inherit our property when we pass on. Must make them work and not rely on us.
But I'm not a risk taker. I rather keep the HDB now. Even if the value drops in future, at least its a steady source of rental income for me and worst case, sell private ppty and move back to hdb. If by then, the HDB is gone, we'll be paying much more for HDB and it'll just be eating into your gains when you first sold the HDB
Perhaps if you are able to invest this $300k. It will be good. If not, keeping $300k in bank to earn 0.8% interest rate is :tsk-tsk: Unless got firesales coming along, then can chiong to buy properties. But I wait till neck long long also don't see any firesale. Even if there is, do not think will come to us, probably grabbed by all the agents and everyone else already. Singaporeans are just so rich.
Agreed!
I doubt the govt can or will bring HDB prices down. The only way is up and they only aim to slow down the rise. Otherwise, if they bring these prices down, those thousands who bought BTO and wait 3 years because they can't afford resale will forfeit BTO and jump into resale. Also, those many thousands who have in recent months bought resale will surely complain like crazy because they bought so high and its not fair not fair not fair.... :doh: No end!
Govt is already trying to appease this group of young complainers and will certainly not want to create another group of complainers. Welcome to Singapore! :o
If government allows HDB ppty to drop, another BIG group of complainers will arise. Everyone of us who are already vested in an HDB and that's alot of pple. Who will the govt aim to placate, the yound complainers who cannot afford new HDB, or the marjority who are vested? Quite obvious...
In fact, MM also said before, dun ever sell your HDB, govt will ensure the value to let it be your retirement fund
Perhaps if you are able to invest this $300k. It will be good. If not, keeping $300k in bank to earn 0.8% interest rate is :tsk-tsk: Unless got firesales coming along, then can chiong to buy properties. But I wait till neck long long also don't see any firesale. Even if there is, do not think will come to us, probably grabbed by all the agents and everyone else already. Singaporeans are just so rich.I once saw a firesale but it didn't meet my requirements for location so gave it a pass. :p But yes firesales are very rare! :o
Keeping HDB is usually wise as most will agree. Not keeping it may or may not be wise! :D
Eldenfirefly
20-07-11, 16:43
If government allows HDB ppty to drop, another BIG group of complainers will arise. Everyone of us who are already vested in an HDB and that's alot of pple. Who will the govt aim to placate, the yound complainers who cannot afford new HDB, or the marjority who are vested? Quite obvious...
In fact, MM also said before, dun ever sell your HDB, govt will ensure the value to let it be your retirement fund
But what happen if they ensure that it only go up 1% each year for the next 10 years?
1% is still better than what the fixed deposit rates are giving you now, less than 1%!!! and during these 10 years u would have collected 240k in rent assuming 2k per mth n if after 10 yrs e value of ur flat has risen 1% per year which will make it 10% appreciation ie 330k gain
Unless u sell n u pump this 300k bk into other assets to hedge inflation and earn Money if not I do not see e point in putting 300k in bank to collect pathetic interest rate
But, that said, it's up to your preference. This is just my risk averse opinion
kingkong1984
20-07-11, 18:06
the way forward, keep and dun sell HDB.
if need of cash, then sell... otherwise keep keep keep. as once sold cannot buy back unless u rid yourself of private property.
it is a prized asset for Singaporeans and PRs...
I envy my parents $20k HDBs... still holding them.
But there's so much political pressure now to do something about the prices of HDB going out of reach for the masses. I don't think the government will be so blur as to just let it keep on going up until the next election.
Also, its a question of affordability. Even today, new couples are complaining that even the decent resale HDB in the more matured estates are becoming out of their reach. So, how much more will HDB be allowed to appreciate given that HDB is supposed to be subsidised housing? :scared-5:
I believe that if you own an asset like a property which you are not staying in, then sometimes must be dispassionate about how you want to deal with it. If its for own stay, that's different story. You need to stay somewhere. Sell high, buy high also.
But if its a second property. Then that means you are not personally affected whether you sell it or keep it. So, it should not be a "always hold" no matter what. Property also will have cycles just like stock market have cycles. Cannot just say "this is HDB, once I sell I cannot buy back, so I must always hold on to it!"
Cannot buy HDB, then buy some other private property. Its still property! In fact, given the immense political pressures now, I think we are lucky to get away with the gains we already have. I am surprised the government haven't wacked in yet another round of measures to stop it in its tracks for good.
But you just see lor. First they will focus on the supply. Try and flood the market and see if it works. If it doesn't, then they will start to look at the regulations already. Their ultimate objective for HDB is clear, its just the way it will be implemented that is the question at this point in time.
That is why I said HDB is a risky asset to me. I will never know when they suka suka change rule. The rental yield is not worth my headache, i rather play in the private market. One day if hdb rule insist hdb is meant only for ownstay and cannot rent out and stay in private, hdb price sure drop. Dun forget, we always need to seek approval before sublet whole flat. Who can guarantee HDB will always aprove?
phantom_opera
20-07-11, 19:20
I really want to laugh if government does not allow renting HDB out. Then foreigners first come here must stay in condos right?? HDB price of course will drop but OCR condos rental / price will hit the roof :p
If HDB does not allow Singapore PRs to buy resale flats, this will push the HDB rental higher for next few years and benefit existing owners who live in private properties and own HDB at the same time.
So there is no easy way out when you have a serious supply-demand mismatch. It takes many years to correct the imbalances.
Sorry a silly question..... I thought any one can dump his BTO flat any time as long as he has not taken possession , with a marginal cost ? So effectively he holds a free option, and if HDB resale market crashes, just give up the BTO and buy resale straight ? No wonder all want resale HDB px to be down...is my reasoning correct ?
Allthepies
20-07-11, 21:04
But what happen if they ensure that it only go up 1% each year for the next 10 years?
U mean 1% above inflation, means tat prices still increase 5% per year:D
Sorry a silly question..... I thought any one can dump his BTO flat any time as long as he has not taken possession , with a marginal cost ? So effectively he holds a free option, and if HDB resale market crashes, just give up the BTO and buy resale straight ? No wonder all want resale HDB px to be down...is my reasoning correct ?That was what I wrote earlier. If govt bring down HDB resale prices, a huge group of BTO buyers will simply forfeit their downpayment and go for resale which would surely generate two scenarios. 1. BTO will be left empty (not a big problem in the long run) 2. Resale prices came down for buyers to rush in but because of this rush, prices will still inevitably go up coz supply < demand! So not solving the problem after all! :doh:
Sell house and buy gold!
y sell something u can use to buy something u can see?
y sell something u can use to buy something u can see?I know of someone who used gold to plate his living room wall... there, something you can use and see! :p
I'll never buy gold at this point in time. Its already climbed up so so so much. Consider that I missed the boat! 2 years back my friend told me to buy but I was hesitant and now, its just too late!!! Some may disagree! :scared-4:
I see that you share the same thoughts as me but I'm probably less insistent on keeping the HDB. My HDB is sitting on about 150% price gain. I like the size too and it can comfortably house my entire family should I decide to sell my condo! :spliff: I potentially need 4 bedrooms when my kids are bigger and a 4 bedder PC is pretty expensive so moving back to HDB is certainly an option! :p
my master bedroom can house a king size bed AND a super single mattress AND a baby cot if I so wish to put that in as well.......on top of it, there is a alcove-like space that can become a "cosy corner". it's currently my son's play corner. this is why I love my master bedroom. hard to find this size in HDB flats these days..... :p
Eldenfirefly
21-07-11, 09:58
How much of this is sentimentality and due to having fond memories of your HDB flat which is probably your first own home? I will have fond memories of my own first HDB flat as well. But I will be moving on soon to a condo, and I frankly doubt if I will ever find myself moving back into a HDB.
And look at it this way. If you find yourself needing to get a HDB again, then, by selling off all of your private property, you can.
If you are so rich you have private property and don't wish to sell that. Then in the first place, why move back into a HDB? Just get a smaller apartment, or a smaller condo, etc.
You tell yourself you want to have the option to move back. But deep down inside, I think most of us know that once we move on, we are never going to move back.
kingkong1984
21-07-11, 18:19
upgrade lah..
got no choice then downgrade.
who said u have to sell something that you no longer intend or will be staying in... keep it for rental income is very good.
How much of this is sentimentality and due to having fond memories of your HDB flat which is probably your first own home? I will have fond memories of my own first HDB flat as well. But I will be moving on soon to a condo, and I frankly doubt if I will ever find myself moving back into a HDB.
And look at it this way. If you find yourself needing to get a HDB again, then, by selling off all of your private property, you can.
If you are so rich you have private property and don't wish to sell that. Then in the first place, why move back into a HDB? Just get a smaller apartment, or a smaller condo, etc.
You tell yourself you want to have the option to move back. But deep down inside, I think most of us know that once we move on, we are never going to move back.Yes seldom will one who's moved on to PC from HDB will want to return. However, it'll not be prudent if one seals up that option in the case of eventuality. Anything can happen. :scared-4: :D
But you just see lor. First they will focus on the supply. Try and flood the market and see if it works. If it doesn't, then they will start to look at the regulations already. Their ultimate objective for HDB is clear, its just the way it will be implemented that is the question at this point in time.
of course they will focus on supply. Cause the demand is still out there. ramp up supply to make as much money as possible. why kill the demand and then lose out on making money. you need to remember, Singapore has no natural resources except its people...(to squeeze from):tongue3:
Yes seldom will one who's moved on to PC from HDB will want to return. However, it'll not be prudent if one seals up that option in the case of eventuality. Anything can happen. :scared-4: :D
Newer HDBs can smoke private condos in life style at half the price.
These days PCs are built so close and cramped and makes for uncomfortable living if you ask me, totally no privacy too.
You should go see the unblocked view HDBs at Goodview Gardens in Bukit Batok.......nice gracious living and sprawled over a huge area. Also those new ones by the Kallang River offer stunning views.
Eldenfirefly
22-07-11, 12:09
People will still like the condo facilities lah (even if they don't use). The option of going for a swim in the condo swimming pool is always there. They can ask friends to come over for BBQ. Baby bash can hold at function room. Many condos have their own gym also. You don't have all these in a HDB mah. :)
Hi all,
Do you think rental yield should be calculated on current value of HDB or the price you paid when you purchased it.
I personally feel that it should be on the amount you invested in and not the current price. Whats your views.
People will still like the condo facilities lah (even if they don't use). The option of going for a swim in the condo swimming pool is always there. They can ask friends to come over for BBQ. Baby bash can hold at function room. Many condos have their own gym also. You don't have all these in a HDB mah. :)
Then you should check out Goodview Gardens, if you really want a pool there is one across the road at the CDans country club, the HDB also has about 2 or 3 function halls for occassians, beautiful landscaped surroundings, several playgrounds and exercise machines, half basket ball court, a fusball court, BBQ pits, pavillions, open benches all round, food, clinic and shops, RC and CC, linked carparks all this is practically self contained as the HDB cluster is totally built away from other HDB blocks so almost exclusive to the residents only and the compund is sprawling, no other condo can match, want a fully equipped professional gym and running track? They are a short 500m walk away at the SSC sports complex / stadium.
Dun get me wrong, I am a landed and pte property owner but this HDB cluster really got me excited. And I believe that there are similar developments like these elsewhere too.
In short, sell HDB when you absolutely need to. Otherwise keep it for milking! :p
yeah. The actual investment is small considering the rental returns. Paper value will go up and down (long term is definitely up). Another 30 years down the line, there is potential to en-bloc and with age catching up, can also consider to move back to the new HDB.
In short, sell HDB when you absolutely need to. Otherwise keep it for milking! :p
yeah. The actual investment is small considering the rental returns. Paper value will go up and down (long term is definitely up). Another 30 years down the line, there is potential to en-bloc and with age catching up, can also consider to move back to the new HDB.So if your HDB kana enbloc and you get a priority to buy a new HDB flat, is there that initial MOP again? Also, will govt give good rate to buy your old HDB flat?
Yes, the MOP should be there but not sure how the current private property you hold will be affected. 30 years down the line definitely HDB would have appreciated much more. I know my friend whose HDB kena enbloc. He got market rate for his unit which is fair and also new subsidised HDB.
So if your HDB kana enbloc and you get a priority to buy a new HDB flat, is there that initial MOP again? Also, will govt give good rate to buy your old HDB flat?
I concur :cool: . With inflation, just milk the HDB on rental for 30 years and then wait for en-bloc.
Yes, the MOP should be there but not sure how the current private property you hold will be affected. 30 years down the line definitely HDB would have appreciated much more. I know my friend whose HDB kena enbloc. He got market rate for his unit which is fair and also new subsidised HDB.
devilplate
23-07-11, 02:01
If ur hdb can sell more den 700k, better to sell now den to keep....
During gd times like now, big hdb unit fetch higher cov den 3-4 rm generally.....however, its the oppostite during downturn...
If ur hdb is just a 3-4 rm flat tat only worth 300-4xxk, den its better to milk it as the rental yield will be vy cool:cool:
Old old 3rm flat in tanglin halt for eg only cost abt 300k n yet rental 2-2.2k now
For 700k flat, u will nvr fetch above 4k rental....even a 5rm flat pinnacle may not hit 4k if they allowed to rent out
linchong84
23-07-11, 07:56
If ur hdb can sell more den 700k, better to sell now den to keep....
During gd times like now, big hdb unit fetch higher cov den 3-4 rm generally.....however, its the oppostite during downturn...
If ur hdb is just a 3-4 rm flat tat only worth 300-4xxk, den its better to milk it as the rental yield will be vy cool:cool:
Old old 3rm flat in tanglin halt for eg only cost abt 300k n yet rental 2-2.2k now
For 700k flat, u will nvr fetch above 4k rental....even a 5rm flat pinnacle may not hit 4k if they allowed to rent out
Should not sell even if 700k.. Most likely the buyer had bought it long time ago at perhaps <200k? So the yield relative to the investment amount still rocks.. Just wait for SERS if the location is really fantastic, then they will get a brand new one.. Such good things where to find..
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 07:58
Unlock profit, buy far fetch location but near to mrt. U have another winner.
linchong84
23-07-11, 08:07
Unlock profit, buy far fetch location but near to mrt. U have another winner.
problem is now views are very diverse on where the market will go 1-2 years later.. For the next 1 year, it is quite obvious prices are going up up up.. but after that hard to say.. land bids have been disappointing.. so even if unlock profit, whether should store ammo or chiong for the next one immediatly is a tough decision to make..
A $700k HDB flat can only exchange for a $650k MM after subtracting SD. This probably translate to a $2.7k/mth (after subtracting $80 Town Council Conservancy fee) rental to exchange for a $2.3k/mth (after subtracting $200 for monthly maintenance) MM?
Furthermore, a MM unit is small so subjected to lower chance of price appreciation than a bigger HDB. Also, MM is a PC so its subjected to risks more directly by market forces while HDB is more protected by govt. :spliff:
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 08:14
problem is now views are very diverse on where the market will go 1-2 years later.. For the next 1 year, it is quite obvious prices are going up up up.. but after that hard to say.. land bids have been disappointing.. so even if unlock profit, whether should store ammo or chiong for the next one immediatly is a tough decision to make..
Make it easier, unlock profit and rent for 2 yrs, wait for recession, it will come. Anyway that is for private. If HDB, buy cheapest units. So far, proved very profitable.
linchong84
23-07-11, 08:19
Make it easier, unlock profit and rent for 2 yrs, wait for recession, it will come. Anyway that is for private. If HDB, buy cheapest units. So far, proved very profitable.
i think 1 mth back, there's a forumer who posted in one of the thread about this possibility.. the idea kena whacked left right centre by everybody.. all said timing the market while affecting own living by renting is not worth it.. and if timed wrongly, gameover..
Eldenfirefly
23-07-11, 08:25
300k profit takes a long time for rental to make. For me, my mouthly instalment for this HDB is 1k. Even if rent out at 2.1k, that means one year net take back cash profit is 13.2k.
And this does not factor in the occasional maintenance that as landlord will be asked to do, plus the occasional headache with tenants.
Assuming rental is the same, will need more than 20 years to get 300k in cash. And of course, 300k now is very different from 300k over 20+ years because inflation will make money smaller.
If can sell at even higher price for the 5 room after 20+ years, then of course happy. But you never know lor, property market can go up can go down. Like I said, people who bought in 1997, wait until now is 14 years then finally see some small little profit ...
Anyway, I am not totally out of the property market if I sell right? I still got another condo I am living in mah. I see it as taking some profit from the good gains. Waiting patiently for next cycle to go in. :)
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 08:28
i think 1 mth back, there's a forumer who posted in one of the thread about this possibility.. the idea kena whacked left right centre by everybody.. all said timing the market while affecting own living by renting is not worth it.. and if timed wrongly, gameover..
If u unlocked 1 million, y not?
But for hdb, unlock 300k and wait is also ok. But I would really go for another cheaper hdb instead.
At most u suffer 300k loss and 300k will be a buffer of xxxk price appreciation.
Eldenfirefly
23-07-11, 08:32
i think 1 mth back, there's a forumer who posted in one of the thread about this possibility.. the idea kena whacked left right centre by everybody.. all said timing the market while affecting own living by renting is not worth it.. and if timed wrongly, gameover..
Actually that's true. If you have just that one house, and you sell it to rent. A bit dangerous. If you are right, good lor. But if you are wrong about the market, then you cham lor.
If got 2 house, then is ok. Even if you are wrong about the market and you sell one, you still got a roof over your head. :)
linchong84
23-07-11, 08:34
Anyway, I am not totally out of the property market if I sell right? I still got another condo I am living in mah. I see it as taking some profit from the good gains. Waiting patiently for next cycle to go in. :)
The one is bold is the key difficult question.. By right 'recession' should have happened 2 years ago, but it didn't happen.. Property prices do go up and down yes, but the down prices in every cycle will not be the same, if not property prices will still be stucked at levels 20-30 years ago..
So will the low of next cycle be lower than current market level? It will require a real recession and $$$ outflow for that to happen.. If it really happen, you would have made the right bet.. If it did not happen and prices continue to rise, eventually corrects a bit in 14 (still higher than current prices), then it would have been a wrong bet..
so, no sure win bets for u.. u got to analyse and predict how prices will go from now.. if u think recession is coming, of course store ammo by locking in profits.. if u think no recession, only minor correction, u might want to store your property ammo instead since inflation is ridiculously high..
linchong84
23-07-11, 08:42
If u unlocked 1 million, y not?
But for hdb, unlock 300k and wait is also ok. But I would really go for another cheaper hdb instead.
At most u suffer 300k loss and 300k will be a buffer of xxxk price appreciation.
usually people dun play with HDB (ie sell hdb and buy another hdb) if they want make money.. people who want to make $$ are usually upgraders who want to lock in profit by selling at high resale hdb prices now.. rent 2 years, hope market crash badly in 13/14, then they buy a pte at similar location at perhaps at cheap prices..
the problem with rental is that it is hard cold cash and it is an expense, not an investment.. u pay rental, end up u get nothing out of it.. when u pay house installments, u know u are paying for an asset.. 2 years net rental expense maybe can sum up to 60k cold hard cash..
if timed wrongly, they will suffer (1) inconvenience due to moving houses/rental, (2) incurring huge rental cash expenses, (3) unable to even buy back their previous HDB equivalent kind of unit at same price, ie might have to downgrade from 5 room to 4 room.. thats really a bad situation to be in..
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 09:27
Yes, it's a bet. I do know two hdb owners who sold their hdb and rent a unit 4 bedders together. Enjoy facilities and yet be debt free. They are saving up to buy as second timer or from resale later. Profit 300k to 500k, renting 60k to 100k for two years. Worth the gamble? U decide.
Property price goes up and down but the long term trend is sliding upwards. Good to know from Former MM that he endorses again on the needs for more foreign talents in his yesterday's forum.
300k profit takes a long time for rental to make. For me, my mouthly instalment for this HDB is 1k. Even if rent out at 2.1k, that means one year net take back cash profit is 13.2k.
And this does not factor in the occasional maintenance that as landlord will be asked to do, plus the occasional headache with tenants.
Assuming rental is the same, will need more than 20 years to get 300k in cash. And of course, 300k now is very different from 300k over 20+ years because inflation will make money smaller.
If can sell at even higher price for the 5 room after 20+ years, then of course happy. But you never know lor, property market can go up can go down. Like I said, people who bought in 1997, wait until now is 14 years then finally see some small little profit ...
Anyway, I am not totally out of the property market if I sell right? I still got another condo I am living in mah. I see it as taking some profit from the good gains. Waiting patiently for next cycle to go in. :)
linchong84
23-07-11, 09:40
Yes, it's a bet. I do know two hdb owners who sold their hdb and rent a unit 4 bedders together. Enjoy facilities and yet be debt free. They are saving up to buy as second timer or from resale later. Profit 300k to 500k, renting 60k to 100k for two years. Worth the gamble? U decide.
Since that owner is buying back HDB again, why will he profit 300-500k? For eg, let's say he sell his 5 room stathmore HDB at 750k.. Since he still owes HDB money, he won't even get the full 750k cash/cpf.. Now he go and rent a 4 bedder condo with a friend's family (i think to resort to staying with others is quite a bad situation), most likely rental at least 6k, so 3k each.. 2 years rental equal 72k fly away..
Let's say 2 years later somewhat mini crash, will strathmore 5 room flats drop back to 400k? Definitely not.. At most drop to 600k.. Since he owed HDB money, he won't even make the full 150k profit.. Maybe we assume 100k profit.. Net off 72k rental + 20-30k reno on new flat = he don't earn a single cent or even make a loss..
And the above is assuming he time it right.. Time right also make loss liao.. If time wrong, he gameover can suicide liao..
Not sure if it is a strategic choice. Pity the kids in the family. :(
Since that owner is buying back HDB again, why will he profit 300-500k? For eg, let's say he sell his 5 room stathmore HDB at 750k.. Since he still owes HDB money, he won't even get the full 750k cash/cpf.. Now he go and rent a 4 bedder condo with a friend's family (i think to resort to staying with others is quite a bad situation), most likely rental at least 6k, so 3k each.. 2 years rental equal 72k fly away..
Let's say 2 years later somewhat mini crash, will strathmore 5 room flats drop back to 400k? Definitely not.. At most drop to 600k.. Since he owed HDB money, he won't even make the full 150k profit.. Maybe we assume 100k profit.. Net off 72k rental + 20-30k reno on new flat = he don't earn a single cent or even make a loss..
And the above is assuming he time it right.. Time right also make loss liao.. If time wrong, he gameover can suicide liao..
Property market is not predictable. I know my condo ex-owner sell his house to me and still renting a house for past 3 years waiting for prices to drop to buy again. Property investment is long term. The money you spend renting and paying property agent is gone forever.
Also, HDB rental depends on location. Central places like Tiong Bahru/Holland can easily get over 3K. Monthly consevation charges lesser than private adds on to the % gain.
devilplate
23-07-11, 10:11
Property market is not predictable. I know my condo ex-owner sell his house to me and still renting a house for past 3 years waiting for prices to drop to buy again. Property investment is long term. The money you spend renting and paying property agent is gone forever.
Also, HDB rental depends on location. Central places like Tiong Bahru/Holland can easily get over 3K. Monthly consevation charges lesser than private adds on to the % gain.
5rm flat r getting about 3k rental now due to condo nearby asking for 5k for a 3bdr.
So i dun understand y edenfly keep saying hdb rental only fetch 2.1k...i wud tot tat his flat will b in vy gd location since can fetch 700k:beats-me-man:
old old 3rm flat in gd location can even hit 2.5k now.....cbd
linchong84
23-07-11, 10:16
5rm flat r getting about 3k rental now due to condo nearby asking for 5k for a 3bdr.
So i dun understand y edenfly keep saying hdb rental only fetch 2.1k...i wud tot tat his flat will b in vy gd location since can fetch 700k:beats-me-man:
old old 3rm flat in gd location can even hit 2.5k now.....cbd
my friend just rented out his good condition pasir ris 5-room flat at 2.4k.. and the unit is not even near to mrt station.. so for 700k hdb, definitely can 3k or more..
True. Also The 700k is current price. So his actual investment must be much lower than that. No private property can beat the ROI and peace of mind when it comes to HDB. :cool:
5rm flat r getting about 3k rental now due to condo nearby asking for 5k for a 3bdr.
So i dun understand y edenfly keep saying hdb rental only fetch 2.1k...i wud tot tat his flat will b in vy gd location since can fetch 700k:beats-me-man:
old old 3rm flat in gd location can even hit 2.5k now.....cbd
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 11:18
Since that owner is buying back HDB again, why will he profit 300-500k? For eg, let's say he sell his 5 room stathmore HDB at 750k.. Since he still owes HDB money, he won't even get the full 750k cash/cpf.. Now he go and rent a 4 bedder condo with a friend's family (i think to resort to staying with others is quite a bad situation), most likely rental at least 6k, so 3k each.. 2 years rental equal 72k fly away..
Let's say 2 years later somewhat mini crash, will strathmore 5 room flats drop back to 400k? Definitely not.. At most drop to 600k.. Since he owed HDB money, he won't even make the full 150k profit.. Maybe we assume 100k profit.. Net off 72k rental + 20-30k reno on new flat = he don't earn a single cent or even make a loss..
And the above is assuming he time it right.. Time right also make loss liao.. If time wrong, he gameover can suicide liao..
rule 1, sell and buy back same place is a bad idea unless it is at a big discount.
rule 2, take profit means u run... run to ulu land and wait.
Its like growing durians trees. U need to plant the seed, wait for it to grow and then reap the fruits. U can never transplant durian trees. So in that sense, why plant again at the same place?
Go look for more furtile lands.
linchong84
23-07-11, 11:31
rule 1, sell and buy back same place is a bad idea unless it is at a big discount.
rule 2, take profit means u run... run to ulu land and wait.
Its like growing durians trees. U need to plant the seed, wait for it to grow and then reap the fruits. U can never transplant durian trees. So in that sense, why plant again at the same place?
Go look for more furtile lands.
Rule 1 doesn't make sense.. If he was staying at strathmore, and sell to eventually stay in bukit panjang just to earn that pathetic 100-200k, and end up suffered a drop in standard of living due to the location.. And also kena another 5 year mop.. this doesn't work for any rational people who wants to make money..
Rule 2 makes sense if he sell his 5 room HDB unit and rent a punggol 4 room unit to hold for 2-3 years.. And again, this only makes sense if he time it right.. And that it is really a big crash 40-50% correction kind of crash.. if not, the rental expenses and inconveniences will be erase any potential profits..
Conclusion: must own at least 2 properties before doing this kind of thing.. never rent because it is an expense.. if die die have to do it, that guy must have incredible vision to time things right..
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 11:40
Rule 1 doesn't make sense.. If he was staying at strathmore, and sell to eventually stay in bukit panjang just to earn that pathetic 100-200k, and end up suffered a drop in standard of living due to the location.. And also kena another 5 year mop.. this doesn't work for any rational people who wants to make money..
Rule 2 makes sense if he sell his 5 room HDB unit and rent a punggol 4 room unit to hold for 2-3 years.. And again, this only makes sense if he time it right.. And that it is really a big crash 40-50% correction kind of crash.. if not, the rental expenses and inconveniences will be erase any potential profits..
Conclusion: must own at least 2 properties before doing this kind of thing.. never rent because it is an expense.. if die die have to do it, that guy must have incredible vision to time things right..
There are indeed people who does rule 1.
5 room to 4 room, 4 room to 3 room, 3 room to 2 room, 2 room to studio, studio to rental, rental to camping at east coast park.
:tsk-tsk:
hahaha
back to your example, sell strathmore and make $100 to $200k.
then in this case, wait no more and quickly buy another HDB with that $200k plus the initial paid up for strathmore of $200k?
$400k can buy you a decent 3 or 4 room flat and at least u become totally DEBT FREE. How about that? But there's MOP to restrict u, otherwise, can down 20% for private already. So take that 5 years to save and buy when MOP is up.
linchong84
23-07-11, 12:02
There are indeed people who does rule 1.
5 room to 4 room, 4 room to 3 room, 3 room to 2 room, 2 room to studio, studio to rental, rental to camping at east coast park.
:tsk-tsk:
hahaha
back to your example, sell strathmore and make $100 to $200k.
then in this case, wait no more and quickly buy another HDB with that $200k plus the initial paid up for strathmore of $200k?
$400k can buy you a decent 3 or 4 room flat and at least u become totally DEBT FREE. How about that? But there's MOP to restrict u, otherwise, can down 20% for private already. So take that 5 years to save and buy when MOP is up.
Not saying that this will confirm fail.. but it will take a lot of luck to make it work.. firstly, debt free is not a good idea when inflation is high and interest rates are low.. secondly, 5 years is too long to suffer a downgrade in standard of living. our lives are quite short, dun have a lot of 5 years, esp 5 healthy years.. thirdly, 5 year mop might have high chance to miss the start of next cycle.. right now we try to forecast 13/14 also very airy fairy liao, if want to forecast 16/17 will be impossible.. by then maybe prices increase too much.. if want to make $$, sell HDB and buy another HDB is definitely a step backwards and an unwise investment decision..
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 12:10
Not saying that this will confirm fail.. but it will take a lot of luck to make it work.. firstly, debt free is not a good idea when inflation is high and interest rates are low.. secondly, 5 years is too long to suffer a downgrade in standard of living. our lives are quite short, dun have a lot of 5 years, esp 5 healthy years.. thirdly, 5 year mop might have high chance to miss the start of next cycle.. right now we try to forecast 13/14 also very airy fairy liao, if want to forecast 16/17 will be impossible.. by then maybe prices increase too much.. if want to make $$, sell HDB and buy another HDB is definitely a step backwards and an unwise investment decision..
haha... ok ok... I agree with u... but there are always people who are not as wise and decide to take a gamble.
Best move now is to fully repay HDB and wait for crash. Otherwise, be cash rich.
devilplate
23-07-11, 12:54
I oredi noe a few tat sold hdb n buy bck hdb in the same area right after tat.... Reason is to haf extra cash but bigger debt.....
For some, tat extra 50 or 100k cash on hand is totally worth it....
Eldenfirefly
23-07-11, 13:16
haha... ok ok... I agree with u... but there are always people who are not as wise and decide to take a gamble.
Best move now is to fully repay HDB and wait for crash. Otherwise, be cash rich.
Err, selling my HDB when I also have a condo is being cash rich isn't it?
Anyway, about the rental part. Seriously I don't know if it can rent for some high figure like 3k a month. I doubt it. For some reason, my area (Kembangan) got only very few block of HDB flats, so the flats here are highly sought after, hence their high price. But in the same token, its not really big big on the radar of people who are renting, so it has high demand from people who want to buy to stay, but I am not sure about the rental bit.
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 13:36
Err, selling my HDB when I also have a condo is being cash rich isn't it?
Anyway, about the rental part. Seriously I don't know if it can rent for some high figure like 3k a month. I doubt it. For some reason, my area (Kembangan) got only very few block of HDB flats, so the flats here are highly sought after, hence their high price. But in the same token, its not really big big on the radar of people who are renting, so it has high demand from people who want to buy to stay, but I am not sure about the rental bit.
If I were u, sell condo and take profit. Fully paid off HDB and buy another under BUC to bet on prices.
But I am not u. You decide.
Rental for hdb 5 rooms about 2.5k or less.. anything more should get condo.
Eldenfirefly
23-07-11, 14:18
If I were u, sell condo and take profit. Fully paid off HDB and buy another under BUC to bet on prices.
But I am not u. You decide.
Rental for hdb 5 rooms about 2.5k or less.. anything more should get condo.
Hee my wife will kill me. We have been waiting for 3 long years for our condo to be ready. :)
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 14:29
Hee my wife will kill me. We have been waiting for 3 long years for our condo to be ready. :)
yeah.. the long wait... keep both or sell of hdb when in need.
yeah.. the long wait... keep both or sell of hdb when in need.He's quite decided to sell hdb liao so be it... anyway there are still some advantages on selling HDB vs other advantages of milking it further. Also, his condo TOP so now the feel good factor's in the air for him and family...:o
I will keep the HDB unless there is an immediate investment opportunity of return of at least 8% where I am short of cash and need to cash out the profit made from the sale of the hdb.
I will keep the HDB unless there is an immediate investment opportunity of return of at least 8% where I am short of cash and need to cash out the profit made from the sale of the hdb.I will keep it too until such times when I need cash and the $700k cash might come in handy and by which time I'd already made some income from rental yields plus I may potentially sell it then at $800k due to inflation??? :p
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 14:56
I will keep it too... :)
devilplate
23-07-11, 15:03
I will try selling....cov can hit more den 80k? If yes, SELL!
Still got gd buy like 8xxpsf 3bdr at caspian or dbr....TOP liao can hit 1kpsf.....kovan res oredi hit 1200psf for 3bdr....jus realised it hit 1394psf!UNBELIEVABLE!:scared-1:
8wood shd b on par when TOP! Huat liao lor! Whahaha:D
can ask hypothetical question?
why does people want to keep HBD until enbloc/SERS and then they get new flat?
Is it because they want to pass it down to their kids?
Lets say if kids already have their own HDB, wouldn't it be better to sell off the HDB during a boom time if the parents already more than 70 years old?
Afterall, if parents die during a recession, the HDB still have to be sold off during recession right?
devilplate
23-07-11, 15:12
can ask hypothetical question?
why does people want to keep HBD until enbloc/SERS and then they get new flat?
Is it because they want to pass it down to their kids?
Lets say if kids already have their own HDB, wouldn't it be better to sell off the HDB during a boom time if the parents already more than 70 years old?
Afterall, if parents die during a recession, the HDB still have to be sold off during recession right?
Can sell ur sers rights at a premium.....can fetch 50-100k more
Meantime, passive income of 2-3k....vy gd money for me...
I will try selling....cov can hit more den 80k? If yes, SELL!
Still got gd buy like 8xxpsf 3bdr at caspian or dbr....TOP liao can hit 1kpsf.....kovan res oredi hit 1200psf for 3bdr....jus realised it hit 1394psf!UNBELIEVABLE!:scared-1:
8wood shd b on par when TOP! Huat liao lor! Whahaha:DSo now buy $1100 psf for 2 bedder and wait TOP will hit $1300 psf? Hmmm... :)
Unfortunately the musical chair has slow down or even stop at some locations.
So now buy $1100 psf for 2 bedder and wait TOP will hit $1300 psf? Hmmm... :)
Think 8Wood still has growth potential. Unless its TOP is hit with a recession or something untoward! :scared-4:
kingkong1984
23-07-11, 21:38
Y push 8..... Blossoms fh behind got better long term potential.
Y push 8..... Blossoms fh behind got better long term potential.Blossoms FH already missed the boat mah!!! At least 100psf more. So exp now! :D
Cyberknight
24-07-11, 07:54
The one is bold is the key difficult question.. By right 'recession' should have happened 2 years ago, but it didn't happen.. Property prices do go up and down yes, but the down prices in every cycle will not be the same, if not property prices will still be stucked at levels 20-30 years ago..
So will the low of next cycle be lower than current market level? It will require a real recession and $$$ outflow for that to happen.. If it really happen, you would have made the right bet.. If it did not happen and prices continue to rise, eventually corrects a bit in 14 (still higher than current prices), then it would have been a wrong bet..
so, no sure win bets for u.. u got to analyse and predict how prices will go from now.. if u think recession is coming, of course store ammo by locking in profits.. if u think no recession, only minor correction, u might want to store your property ammo instead since inflation is ridiculously high..
Saw so many comments. My view are as follows
1) property investment is an investment on the long term future of the country or economy. So if u believe in e economy long term, never mind the occasional recession, then u should hold the property and not sell.
2) now is the time to take on debt, as much as one can cos loan rates are at all time low and expected to stay low for the next couple of years unless USA can start to reduce their debt and economy is infaltomary. Our Sgd interest rate is closely tied to usd interest rate
3) in a super recession,property prices may hold or even shoot up ESP mid high end condo, cos Singapore may be one of the independent safe haven money centre of the rich.
4) cashing out and renting may not be that bad an idea if the cash are deployed to higher yield investment assets such as REITs, commodities stocks that can easily give 6% returns But then, the key thing is still to take on debt to maximize the equity on hand.
5) life is short and if one can afford it, stay in the condo and enjoy. Why sell the condo.
6) hdb is very rentable today and if I can get greater than 8% yield on my original buying price of the hdb, there is absolutely no reason for me to cash out the hdb and earn nothing holding cash in the bank account or even paying off loans currently < 2% in some cases.
For me at least, I believe in the Singapore economy.
U r investment savvy. It is abt leveraging. Buy n keep. May not hve such opportunity in future if did not buy two yezrs ago...
Saw so many comments. My view are as follows
1) property investment is an investment on the long term future of the country or economy. So if u believe in e economy long term, never mind the occasional recession, then u should hold the property and not sell.
2) now is the time to take on debt, as much as one can cos loan rates are at all time low and expected to stay low for the next couple of years unless USA can start to reduce their debt and economy is infaltomary. Our Sgd interest rate is closely tied to usd interest rate
3) in a super recession,property prices may hold or even shoot up ESP mid high end condo, cos Singapore may be one of the independent safe haven money centre of the rich.
4) cashing out and renting may not be that bad an idea if the cash are deployed to higher yield investment assets such as REITs, commodities stocks that can easily give 6% returns But then, the key thing is still to take on debt to maximize the equity on hand.
5) life is short and if one can afford it, stay in the condo and enjoy. Why sell the condo.
6) hdb is very rentable today and if I can get greater than 8% yield on my original buying price of the hdb, there is absolutely no reason for me to cash out the hdb and earn nothing holding cash in the bank account or even paying off loans currently < 2% in some cases.
For me at least, I believe in the Singapore economy.
Cyberknight
24-07-11, 15:45
U r investment savvy. It is abt leveraging. Buy n keep. May not hve such opportunity in future if did not buy two yezrs ago...
There is always opportunity if the economy grows. I love being contrarian and one wise man once said : be fearful when others are greedy, be greedy when others are fearful.
Let's wait for others to be fearful.
Remember bishan was the market peak darling in the 1990s, so much value was unleashed in the condos and hdb in the area even until early this year.
Do you think if history will repeat itself in the same place 20 years later?
There is always opportunity if the economy grows. I love being contrarian and one wise man once said : be fearful when others are greedy, be greedy when others are fearful.
Let's wait for others to be fearful.
Remember bishan was the market peak darling in the 1990s, so much value was unleashed in the condos and hdb in the area even until early this year.
Cyberknight
24-07-11, 17:28
Do you think if history will repeat itself in the same place 20 years later?
Why not? human are darn good at repeating history. The hot sites today in queenstown, bukit Merah may become the value sites in the future.
Thomson grand has triggered some exuberance in the area. And bishan central is so much better. Watch for new peak prices soon in bishan..
devilplate
24-07-11, 17:52
There is always opportunity if the economy grows. I love being contrarian and one wise man once said : be fearful when others are greedy, be greedy when others are fearful.
Let's wait for others to be fearful.
Remember bishan was the market peak darling in the 1990s, so much value was unleashed in the condos and hdb in the area even until early this year.
I haf been fearful since jan 14....
So u can b greedy now!:p
Cyberknight
24-07-11, 17:59
I haf been fearful since jan 14....
So u can b greedy now!:p
Not yet, I know one whom still buy sea strand last week giving incomprehensible reasons that showed many people are still buying.
And many chinese are forming buying tours to buy sg properties
devilplate
24-07-11, 18:02
Not yet, I know one whom still buy sea strand last week giving incomprehensible reasons that showed many people are still buying.
And many chinese are forming buying tours to buy sg properties
U dun get my point....
U can find 10ppl who is buying...i can find another 10 who is bearish n hoping for a crash
I jus find tat statement crappy....
During bottom 09, so many greedy investors fighting over my firesales!:banghead:
Rush down to give chq, agt said higher offer collected n deal done....$&@$:simmering:
Cyberknight
24-07-11, 18:05
U dun get my point....
U can find 10ppl who is buying...i can find another 10 who is bearish n hoping for a crash
Ic. Got it. Just wait and see the macro-economic indicators unfold.
I will try selling....cov can hit more den 80k? If yes, SELL!
Still got gd buy like 8xxpsf 3bdr at caspian or dbr....TOP liao can hit 1kpsf.....kovan res oredi hit 1200psf for 3bdr....jus realised it hit 1394psf!UNBELIEVABLE!:scared-1:
8wood shd b on par when TOP! Huat liao lor! Whahaha:D
Hmm i know of someone with 500k on hand and might be selling his rcr property for 100-150k gain. If that materialize wat property will be good for capital appreciation or rental yield to hedge inflation? I told him maybe get caspian 2 or 3 bd but afraid now prices r too high. Appreciate advice wat to do wif dis cash to hedge inflation ? Thanks!!!
devilplate
25-07-11, 09:48
Hmm i know of someone with 500k on hand and might be selling his rcr property for 100-150k gain. If that materialize wat property will be good for capital appreciation or rental yield to hedge inflation? I told him maybe get caspian 2 or 3 bd but afraid now prices r too high. Appreciate advice wat to do wif dis cash to hedge inflation ? Thanks!!!
Y not hang on to his rcr ppty?
Y not hang on to his rcr ppty?
He said capital appreciation very low. It's one bedder now rented out at 3.3k per mth. Scared got downturn so rather get out mkt n wait for correction if any
If dun sell gt any good Prop for rental yield?
devilplate
25-07-11, 10:07
He said capital appreciation very low. It's one bedder now rented out at 3.3k per mth. Scared got downturn so rather get out mkt n wait for correction if any
If dun sell gt any good Prop for rental yield?
Either sell rcr, get another one or keep rcr n 500k cash
i dun encourage to keep rcr plus add another one at this pt in time
Eldenfirefly
25-07-11, 10:40
This is partly why I am more inclined to sell my HDB flat now. I am taking some profit for the good gains made, but I am not totally out of the property market mah. So, I still have my brand new condo so if property prices continue to go crazy, is ok, I will then see the value on my existing condo shoot up even more lor.
With HDB, got more risk lah. People need to remember, this is public housing. Its meant for the masses. If it shoot up even more, then how can the public afford it? True there are some Singaporeans who are very rich, drive big car. But there are other Singaporeans who are not so rich, and HDB is their only choice if they want a roof over their heads.
Plus if you just come out to work and just got married, then how much money would you have to buy a HDB? They just can't allow it to keep on going up, it will price out all the people it was meant for.
Let's say HDB go up to $900,000. Newly wed couple where to find the money to pay the deposit on that! :scared-4:
Eldenfirefly
25-07-11, 10:47
So, if property market goes up more. Ok, a bit sayang, but I will have already made 300k on one flat, and my existing condo will continue to see even bigger and bigger paper gain lor.
If property market goes down, then better still. Already would have taken out 300k in profit plus capital. Once it goes down enough, then time to go back into the market to pick up bargains! :)
So, if property market goes up more. Ok, a bit sayang, but I will have already made 300k on one flat, and my existing condo will continue to see even bigger and bigger paper gain lor.
If property market goes down, then better still. Already would have taken out 300k in profit plus capital. Once it goes down enough, then time to go back into the market to pick up bargains! :)From my observations, you are still hesitant on selling your HDB and have been putting out your reasons to sell and hope for more comments to challenge your reasons. I may have interpreted wrongly but anyway...
Well, I just thought that if you have decided to sell, don't regret even when prices do appreciate further. If you have decided not to sell, don't regret when price drops. We may not see the future but we can choose not to let the future events ruin our emotions. :cheers1:
I sold my condo and made a profit of $300k but prices rose another $200k 6 months after that!!! But I chose not to let it disturb me... hahaha! Sorry if I wrote all these stuff after interpreting wrongly! :D Btw, congrats on your newly TOP condo. Enjoy the moving in process.... LOL!
Eldenfirefly
25-07-11, 17:40
Well, I haven't sold it yet! :) But yeah, important thing is once sold, don't look back liao. Else will have seller's regret! :eek: :scared-4: :)
devilplate
25-07-11, 17:50
Well, I haven't sold it yet! :) But yeah, important thing is once sold, don't look back liao. Else will have seller's regret! :eek: :scared-4: :)
So far, i only got one seller remorse.....i like tat unit,facing n location....sold liao and can nvr buy bck at my selling px again:banghead:
So moral of the story: dun ever sell gems away
So far, i only got one seller remorse.....i like tat unit,facing n location....sold liao and can nvr buy bck at my selling px again:banghead:
So moral of the story: dun ever sell gems away
how to determine whether it is gems or not?
We can only know after the fact.
devilplate
25-07-11, 18:17
how to determine whether it is gems or not?
We can only know after the fact.
U get me wrong....
every ppty is unique....so if u like a particular ppty vy much...dun sell it
Ppty is not like money or gold:D
U get me wrong....
every ppty is unique....so if u like a particular ppty vy much...dun sell it
Ppty is not like money or gold:D
agree totally. if you like it so much, then its a gem.
like what a friend says: he is buying a home to stay in, feels very sad whenever he's got to sell anything.
I sold my condo and made a profit of $300k but prices rose another $200k 6 months after that!!! But I chose not to let it disturb me... hahaha! Sorry if I wrote all these stuff after interpreting wrongly! :D Btw, congrats on your newly TOP condo. Enjoy the moving in process.... LOL!
Private condo yes, 6 months appreciate $200k. but hdb?? I doubt. Already 700K, if can appreciate $200k in 6 month KBW can step down. If you talk abt 20K-60K maybe. But higher downside risk in my opinion. I always believe that HDB is meant for owner occupier, not investment. There are limitations to investing such govt property which is highly dependent on govt ruling. Unless you are thinking of falling back to it if misfortune happens, if not I dun see any good reasons for holding it. You can get similar rental yield from another pte property which may even give better price appreciation. Easier to play with 2 private properties than to play with one pte and one govt property imho. That is solely my opinion.
Either sell rcr, get another one or keep rcr n 500k cash
i dun encourage to keep rcr plus add another one at this pt in time
Kk thanks I will let him know
If only can still find caspian at 800psf for 2 or 3GS. Can buy for rental yield but I think tough
One way is to post it here before you decide to sell and some of the experts here (not agent) and will tell you if it is a GEM.
how to determine whether it is gems or not?
We can only know after the fact.
One way is to post it here before you decide to sell and some of the experts here (not agent) and will tell you if it is a GEM.
This is very subjective; to each his own. Some people like convenience with shops and facilities at the doorstep; others prefer a more secluded spot with views of nature.
Like for me, my spouse prefers ulu and far flung spots that overlook trees and rivers. For me, I prefer near MRT because I have to lug heavy teaching aids to and from work. But what is a no-no for us: congested area like City Square & Kovan even if the MRT is right at our doorstep.
So, I say, to each his own.
Hi
New here, noticed a lot of people are in favour of keeping 1 HDB for rental and then invest in private properties
My first property investment was an OCR condo (before CM in 2010) as i didnt meet the eligibility to get a BTO. Right now sitting on a small 15% paper gain
HDB yield is almost always higher than PC, so I was thinking should I
a) sell my OCR PC at a profit and then buy resale HDB, after MOP in 5 years hopefully invest in PC again while keeping HDB for rental. Dont expect prices to run up substantially with the looming supply. In any case, profit from selling PC can always be used to invest in blue chip yielding good dividends.
b) instead of taking a step back, keep the OCR, wait 2 more years and invest in another PC.
What do you think?
Hi
New here, noticed a lot of people are in favour of keeping 1 HDB for rental and then invest in private properties
My first property investment was an OCR condo (before CM in 2010) as i didnt meet the eligibility to get a BTO. Right now sitting on a small 15% paper gain
HDB yield is almost always higher than PC, so I was thinking should I
a) sell my OCR PC at a profit and then buy resale HDB, after MOP in 5 years hopefully invest in PC again while keeping HDB for rental. Dont expect prices to run up substantially with the looming supply. In any case, profit from selling PC can always be used to invest in blue chip yielding good dividends.
b) instead of taking a step back, keep the OCR, wait 2 more years and invest in another PC.
What do you think?
Your first property investment? or ur first property? There's a difference whether the property is meant for own-stay
Hi
New here, noticed a lot of people are in favour of keeping 1 HDB for rental and then invest in private properties
My first property investment was an OCR condo (before CM in 2010) as i didnt meet the eligibility to get a BTO. Right now sitting on a small 15% paper gain
HDB yield is almost always higher than PC, so I was thinking should I
a) sell my OCR PC at a profit and then buy resale HDB, after MOP in 5 years hopefully invest in PC again while keeping HDB for rental. Dont expect prices to run up substantially with the looming supply. In any case, profit from selling PC can always be used to invest in blue chip yielding good dividends.
b) instead of taking a step back, keep the OCR, wait 2 more years and invest in another PC.
What do you think?You need to look at your plans for the near future.. are you married, about to get married or not going to marry? Kids? Parents' dependence? Planning to drive or already driving? Job security as well as monthly income? If 2 more years of saving allows you to get another PC, you are earning well!
Like what many people say, 'HDB is govt's gift to you' but to qualify to buy BTO, you must either be above 35 years old or you must be married! Loads of clauses attached. Your income ceiling must not exceed $10k to qualify too!
You need to look at your plans for the near future.. are you married, about to get married or not going to marry? Kids? Parents' dependence? Planning to drive or already driving? Job security as well as monthly income? If 2 more years of saving allows you to get another PC, you are earning well!
Like what many people say, 'HDB is govt's gift to you' but to qualify to buy BTO, you must either be above 35 years old or you must be married! Loads of clauses attached. Your income ceiling must not exceed $10k to qualify too!
My first property for home stay. Married with no kids yet but in the pipeline. Driving and monthly cash flows wise ok.
Yea i couldnt get BTO as was over the income ceiling 2 years back. Now seems like i might not be able to enjoy the good HDB yield as i will probably not be able to own a HDB in the foreseeable future
My first property for home stay. Married with no kids yet but in the pipeline. Driving and monthly cash flows wise ok.
Yea i couldnt get BTO as was over the income ceiling 2 years back. Now seems like i might not be able to enjoy the good HDB yield as i will probably not be able to own a HDB in the foreseeable futureSo, question is, are u willing to wait 5 years for a 2nd property should you buy resale HDB? If the wait is too long, then keep your current OCR unit and wait 2 years to get 2nd property. ;)
I'm guessing the 2 years wait is to save up for capital? Why do u consider ur first OCR condo for home stay a property investment? :tsk-tsk: :tsk-tsk: Not another family guy who plans on treating ur home as an investment gamble are you?
I'm guessing the 2 years wait is to save up for capital? Why do u consider ur first OCR condo for home stay a property investment? :tsk-tsk: :tsk-tsk: Not another family guy who plans on treating ur home as an investment gamble are you?
2 years is to save for more capital buffer... personally dont expect market to rise substantially within the next 2 years..
Apologies, i meant first poperty purchase. Not treating it as a gamble
wondering if i should start making low ball offers 5% below the recent lowest caveat price?
Hi
New here, noticed a lot of people are in favour of keeping 1 HDB for rental and then invest in private properties
My first property investment was an OCR condo (before CM in 2010) as i didnt meet the eligibility to get a BTO. Right now sitting on a small 15% paper gain
HDB yield is almost always higher than PC, so I was thinking should I
a) sell my OCR PC at a profit and then buy resale HDB, after MOP in 5 years hopefully invest in PC again while keeping HDB for rental. Dont expect prices to run up substantially with the looming supply. In any case, profit from selling PC can always be used to invest in blue chip yielding good dividends.
b) instead of taking a step back, keep the OCR, wait 2 more years and invest in another PC.
What do you think?
Bro, when you sell your PC, you need to wait for three years before you can apply HDB. Plus 5 years MOP, total 8 years. Bro, life is short, 8 yrs later then u can buy PC again. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Bro, when you sell your PC, you need to wait for three years before you can apply HDB. Plus 5 years MOP, total 8 years. Bro, life is short, 8 yrs later then u can buy PC again. Correct me if I'm wrong.
If what u said is true, then it will be a good idea to buy resale hdb first and sell PC within 6 month..
If what u said is true, then it will be a good idea to buy resale hdb first and sell PC within 6 month..
No. This rule apply to resale HDB as well. U sell off your PC also must wait for at least 3 yrs in order to buy resale HDB.
This is what I remember. Anyone can cfm?
No. This rule apply to resale HDB as well.
This is what I remember.
So they can only buy hdb first and sell their PC within 6 months right? Then no need to waste 30 months waiting.
because the new rules also state those who bought hdb while owning PC must sell PC within six months. Contradicting rule.
Because there's once I am so tempted to buy an EC. But was holding two PCs.
I called up my agent and clarify. This is what he told me.
He says even I sold off all PCs, I need to wait for 30 mths in order to be eligible to buy EC.
Because there's once I am so tempted to buy an EC. But was holding two PCs.
I called up my agent and clarify. This is what he told me.
He says even I sold off all PCs, I need to wait for 30 mths in order to be eligible to buy EC.
for new HDB and new EC, 30 months apply to disposal of PC. for resale HDB, PC must be sold within 6 months. MOP applied to both new and resale HDB.
No. This rule apply to resale HDB as well. U sell off your PC also must wait for at least 3 yrs in order to buy resale HDB.
This is what I remember. Anyone can cfm?
Unless u taking grants and hdb loan.
Otherwise with zero grant and bank loan. U can buy immmediately
No. This rule apply to resale HDB as well. U sell off your PC also must wait for at least 3 yrs in order to buy resale HDB.
This is what I remember. Anyone can cfm?
No Xan, resale HDB can buy anytime. but after that, within 6 months u must dispose all properties u own. (overseas / local PCs)
2 years is to save for more capital buffer... personally dont expect market to rise substantially within the next 2 years..
Apologies, i meant first poperty purchase. Not treating it as a gamble
wondering if i should start making low ball offers 5% below the recent lowest caveat price?
So let me get this right, ur own stay is in a OCR condo and now ur thinking of buying a 2nd one for investment purpose. My guess is the 2nd 1 will be for rental yield rather than capital gains since ur previous statement states that u dont foresee the market growing in the coming 2 years.
Firstly, are u selling ur first OCR PC to buy ur 2nd? or is ur intention to hold both properties?
IF you are thinking of holding onto both, i'd say just wait. With 60%LTV and 16%SSD + u feel that the market is gonna be quiet for the next 2 years. why offer now?
No Xan, resale HDB can buy anytime. but after that, within 6 months u must dispose all properties u own. (overseas / local PCs)
Thanks for clarifying.
Unless u taking grants and hdb loan.
Otherwise with zero grant and bank loan. U can buy immmediately
Do you mean that if I can pay off any new launch EC or new HDB without any loan required, I can still buy it immediately (without the need to wait 3 yrs) despite I'm still holding 2 PCs and no need to dispose them first?
Or are you talking about resale HDB?
Did you mean that if I can pay off any new launch EC or new HDB without loan, I can still buy immediately despite I'm holding 2 PCs and no need dispose them?
if u buy resale without grant and hdb loan. there's no waiting period such 30 months. in ur case u are referring to resale, so i don't quote the bto or ec.
however, EC or new bto a waiting period 30months still applies..
u only allow to buy without waiting period: resale hdb, and you need to dispose pc
if u buy resale without grant and hdb loan. there's no waiting period such 30 months. in ur case u are referring to resale, so i don't quote the bto or ec.
however, EC or new bto a waiting period 30months still applies..
u only allow to buy without waiting period: resale hdb, and you need to dispose pc
Thanks for the info. :)
Well, I would not take this option as disposing PC within 6 mths is damn stressful.
So let me get this right, ur own stay is in a OCR condo and now ur thinking of buying a 2nd one for investment purpose. My guess is the 2nd 1 will be for rental yield rather than capital gains since ur previous statement states that u dont foresee the market growing in the coming 2 years.
Firstly, are u selling ur first OCR PC to buy ur 2nd? or is ur intention to hold both properties?
IF you are thinking of holding onto both, i'd say just wait. With 60%LTV and 16%SSD + u feel that the market is gonna be quiet for the next 2 years. why offer now?
Hi
Yes, intention is to hold 2 properties with the second for rental yield
Toyed with the idea of selling my current PC (which not subject to any selling tax) and buy resale HDB. So after 5 year MOP, i can buy another PC and rent out HDB as its a good yield.
But seems if i do that, that I will be stuck for 5 years cannot buy a PC. Sounds too much off a long time... how many 5 years do we all have :)
Side question, for a investment in a PC, do you all think buying a resale EC (>5 years <10 years) makes good sense? Then wait for few years and hopefully sell to foreigner after it convert to full PC :D :D
Unless the EC is in a good location and near mrt and it has to be about $300-400psf cheaper than the nearby condos. Age of the ECs has to be considered too.
Side question, for a investment in a PC, do you all think buying a resale EC (>5 years <10 years) makes good sense? Then wait for few years and hopefully sell to foreigner after it convert to full PC :D :D
Hi
Yes, intention is to hold 2 properties with the second for rental yield
Toyed with the idea of selling my current PC (which not subject to any selling tax) and buy resale HDB. So after 5 year MOP, i can buy another PC and rent out HDB as its a good yield.
But seems if i do that, that I will be stuck for 5 years cannot buy a PC. Sounds too much off a long time... how many 5 years do we all have :)
We seem to miss the point that property investments' horizon should always be long. 5 years is not really that long. A property cycle used to take 10. Only the recent economic conditions have seem to changed this trend slightly. If you can't spare 5 years of ur time, perhaps u shouldnt be looking at property for investment.
There are no 100% winners in this game. If ur stuck with ur purchase u gotta be able to hold more than 5 years at times. Look at those who bought for investment in 96-97. They probably waited till recent years to break even or make a slight margin.
People who go for enbloc opportunities may also end up holding onto what they thought may only take a couple of years to materialise in turn take a decade.
Flipping opportunities are gone ever since CMs came about to cool the market. Do give up property investment if that is ur idea of making a quick buck (less than 5 years). Days of making a substantial amount of gain from new sale or even subsale are gone since jan 2011.
Side question, for a investment in a PC, do you all think buying a resale EC (>5 years <10 years) makes good sense? Then wait for few years and hopefully sell to foreigner after it convert to full PC :D :D
Rein, the problem with this is that there arent that many >5years<10years ECs for u too look for.
ECs were not built for a long time till recent property boom. Govt dont constantly build ECs for the market. So if wanna look into buying the next batch of >5years EC, perhaps u should wait till after 2020. (When all the ECs TOP in 2015/16 and clear 5 years MOP after)
Side question, for a investment in a PC, do you all think buying a resale EC (>5 years <10 years) makes good sense? Then wait for few years and hopefully sell to foreigner after it convert to full PC :D :D
Rein, the problem with this is that there arent that many >5years<10years ECs for u too look for.
ECs were not built for a long time till recent property boom. Govt dont constantly build ECs for the market. So if wanna look into buying the next batch of >5years EC, perhaps u should wait till after 2020. (When all the ECs TOP in 2015/16 and clear 5 years MOP after)
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