View Full Version : Prices of resale flats, private homes continue to rise
Prices of resale flats, private homes continue to rise (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1138306/1/.html)
By Julie Quek / Wayne Chan | Posted: 01 July 2011 1433 hrs
SINGAPORE: Prices of HDB resale flats have increased 2.9 per cent in the second quarter of this year compared to the previous quarter.
Flash data released on Friday by the Housing and Development Board (HDB) shows that its resale price index in the second quarter this year came in at 179.9.
The rate of price growth in the second quarter is higher than the previous quarter's 1.6 per cent hike.
HDB said it is on track to offer 22,000 Build-to-Order (BTO) flats by September, and another 3,000 BTO flats in the last quarter of this year.
Prospective buyers can check the HDB website for details of the projects scheduled for sale from July to September.
Key Executive Officer of ERA Realty Network, Eugene Lim, said the higher increase in prices of HDB resale flats last year was due to a supply shortage.
He added that the pool of potential HDB upgraders may have shrunk with higher and rising private property prices. The recent cooling measures could be another put-off.
In particular, he pointed to stricter rules to qualify for loan financing as a reason for more HDB owners preferring to stay put.
Mr Lim said: "If you have an existing mortgage, you want to buy another flat before you sell, you are only eligible for a 60 per cent bank loan, so this puts off a lot of home sellers."
Mr Lim said this trend has led to HDB owners postponing their plans to upgrade, with some subletting their flats for a good return instead after fulfilling the minimum occupation period of five years.
Also, Mr Lim said those that are able to afford to buy a private property after fulfilling the minimum occupation period of five years without selling their HDB flats; as they can sublet the whole unit and get a good return.
He said demand however, continues to be strong due to upgraders, downgraders, Permanent Residents and private property owners who have cashed out.
This has driven Cash-Over-Valuation (COV) upwards.
Based on ERA's transactions for the last three months, Mr Lim said the median COV has risen from S$30,000 in April to S$37,000 in June.
To further enhance the supply for third quarter this year, HDB said it plans to launch 2,000 flats under a Sale of Balance Flats Exercise scheduled in August. HDB said this exercise will offer some flats in the mature estates.
While this is welcome news, analysts said the release of new flats will not have much impact on the resale market as the move caters primarily to first timers.
Meanwhile, private home prices have also continued to rise in the second quarter of this year, but at a slower pace compared to HDB flats.
Latest flash estimates from the Urban Redevelopment Authority (URA) showed the price index for private homes rose 1.9 per cent in the second quarter - slightly lower than first quarter's 2.2 per cent increase.
And analysts see further price moderation down the road as buyers continue to remain cautious.
Colin Tan, Head of Research and Consultancy at Chesterton Suntec International, said: "At the moment, I think market sentiment has taken a hit because of the Euro debt crisis. The last time, the market suffered that kind of lack of interest was also in April last just when the Greek crisis started.
"But once the debt problem is resolved, then maybe we can see markets returning back again because other than that, the fundamentals haven't really changed much."
URA said the rate of price increase has moderated for seven consecutive quarters, since the fourth quarter of 2009.
- CNA/fa/ac
Any comment if KBW will be looking at restrict whole HDB lease out upon MOP since more owner is keeping their HDB for rental which worsen the supply for resale. Afterall HDB flat in the view of most people is public housing not investment tool.
Just wonder, when pinnacle@duxton upon MOP, what is the percentage of units are rented vs own stay? Selling is like killing the cash cow. :2cents:
Any view?
Any comment if KBW will be looking at restrict whole HDB lease out upon MOP since more owner is keeping their HDB for rental which worsen the supply for resale. Afterall HDB flat in the view of most people is public housing not investment tool.
Just wonder, when pinnacle@duxton upon MOP, what is the percentage of units are rented vs own stay? Selling is like killing the cash cow. :2cents:
Any view?Disallowing HDB upgraders to rent the flats would be to stab the rental market severely.
1. Its like taking away HDB from the resale market where many who look to buy cheap would turn to HDB. Similarly, those who look to rent cheap would turn to HDB rental market. What they can afford in rental for a 4 room HDB flat would only qualify them for a 2 bedder private condo at the best. KBW will not commit suicide like that lah! :o
2. It will open up mindless opportunity for condo owners looking to rent to jack up their rental prices because they know the demand will be there when so so so many HDB renters will be forced to exodus the HDB market and seek for OCR rental opportunities!
3. The demand will burst the rental market. Too many people looking to rent and too little supply available. A huge problem to rectify in double quick time.
4. Too many vacant HDB flats simply because HDB upgraders will then be desperate to sell to minimize losses. Supply exceeds demand. Its the buyers' market and resale prices will plummet. This is create a strange phenomenon where OCR rental market will soar while HDB resale market will drop to who knows where. :doh:
So don't think our dear Mr K will do something like that... :spliff:
Any comment if KBW will be looking at restrict whole HDB lease out upon MOP since more owner is keeping their HDB for rental which worsen the supply for resale. Afterall HDB flat in the view of most people is public housing not investment tool.
Just wonder, when pinnacle@duxton upon MOP, what is the percentage of units are rented vs own stay? Selling is like killing the cash cow. :2cents:
Any view?
First know why HDB allow sublet then you will get your answer to your question.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q9465iQhhQs/Tg8_0BC63UI/AAAAAAAAGNk/vzZBJoEFryY/s800/HDB%2525202003%252520till%252520now.JPG
First know why HDB allow sublet then you will get your answer to your question.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q9465iQhhQs/Tg8_0BC63UI/AAAAAAAAGNk/vzZBJoEFryY/s800/HDB%2525202003%252520till%252520now.JPGThank you for your historical find. This keeps us in perspective of the reason behind the hugely debated HDB rental market. Well the demand for HDB rental will always be there because it forms the lowest tier in the housing rental market in Singapore so never never sell HDB after MOP. Rent it coz the yield is almost guaranteed. :D
Thank you for your historical find. This keeps us in perspective of the reason behind the hugely debated HDB rental market. Well the demand for HDB rental will always be there because it forms the lowest tier in the housing rental market in Singapore so never never sell HDB after MOP. Rent it coz the yield is almost guaranteed. :D
Thanks both of for the insight.
Just thinking aloud. In order to satisfy demand both public and pte housing supply is gearing up at full speed recently and a slowdown in the FT tap is the govt helping to create the possibility of the mentioned of perfect storms in 2013/14 especially keeping the HDB leasing intact. Indirectly is creating a buying opportunity for those who have missed the boat to buy pte :) with a caveat informing buyers about the risk of the perfect storms. Interesting hee....
Assume no change in policy totally agree to hold on to my HDB as the secondary mkt HDB is unlikely to be over supply with more and more owner keeping for rental :)
devilplate
03-07-11, 00:53
Thanks both of for the insight.
Just thinking aloud. In order to satisfy demand both public and pte housing supply is gearing up at full speed recently and a slowdown in the FT tap is the govt helping to create the possibility of the mentioned of perfect storms in 2013/14 especially keeping the HDB leasing intact. Indirectly is creating a buying opportunity for those who have missed the boat to buy pte :) with a caveat informing buyers about the risk of the perfect storms. Interesting hee....
Assume no change in policy totally agree to hold on to my HDB as the secondary mkt HDB is unlikely to be over supply with more and more owner keeping for rental :)
Its best cash cow...keep it till u die.....
Wan, insightful info! Many owners living in private while owning & renting out HDBs & hogging supply which can be released immediately for occupation. Time for Mr Khaw to set new law to forbid people from owning HDB if they own private?
First know why HDB allow sublet then you will get your answer to your question.
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-q9465iQhhQs/Tg8_0BC63UI/AAAAAAAAGNk/vzZBJoEFryY/s800/HDB%2525202003%252520till%252520now.JPG
The configuration of HDB flats esp the older ones is suited to sub-letting. For example, 4-room flat can have 6 people in the bedrooms comfortably, 2 in each room. Some private condos have small 3rd bedroom, cannot fit in 2 beds. Old 4-room flats also have well-proportioned kitchens.
This move will pull down your pte property prices indirectly.
This move will pull down your pte property prices indirectly.
Pure speculation.
Once pte supply has increased say 2013/14, pte rental may drop and rental gap between HDB and Pte may narrow if FT intake still controlled. Policy may change to stop HDB rental and tenant still able to switch to pte tho size will be smaller. This may kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve HDB resale supply instead of supply coming in ~8yrs from now, and pte owner can still use the rental to help with instalment. And gradually increase supply to cater for 6.5mil.
Last hear (without statistical backing) one HDB master room rental is ard $1k n a 3rm HDB flat is ard $1.5k. So over next 3yrs price gap may narrow if pte rental drop due to more supply.
Well having say that only our dear minister will have all the necessary data on hand to decide what policy is good for the market, all other opinion are pure speculation. :cheers6:
Pure speculation.
Once pte supply has increased say 2013/14, pte rental may drop and rental gap between HDB and Pte may narrow if FT intake still controlled. Policy may change to stop HDB rental and tenant still able to switch to pte tho size will be smaller. This may kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve HDB resale supply instead of supply coming in ~8yrs from now, and pte owner can still use the rental to help with instalment. And gradually increase supply to cater for 6.5mil.
Last hear (without statistical backing) one HDB master room rental is ard $1k n a 3rm HDB flat is ard $1.5k. So over next 3yrs price gap may narrow if pte rental drop due to more supply.
Well having say that only our dear minister will have all the necessary data on hand to decide what policy is good for the market, all other opinion are pure speculation. :cheers6:
HDB rental will never stop..
Lot of people depend on HDB rental be it subletting or full unit.. Govt can't risk such a policy move..
Pure speculation.
Once pte supply has increased say 2013/14, pte rental may drop and rental gap between HDB and Pte may narrow if FT intake still controlled. Policy may change to stop HDB rental and tenant still able to switch to pte tho size will be smaller. This may kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve HDB resale supply instead of supply coming in ~8yrs from now, and pte owner can still use the rental to help with instalment. And gradually increase supply to cater for 6.5mil.
Last hear (without statistical backing) one HDB master room rental is ard $1k n a 3rm HDB flat is ard $1.5k. So over next 3yrs price gap may narrow if pte rental drop due to more supply.
Well having say that only our dear minister will have all the necessary data on hand to decide what policy is good for the market, all other opinion are pure speculation. :cheers6:Even if no amendment to HDB rental policy, pte supply increment in 2013/14 will be met with similar if not more increment in the the public supply too. :o
Pure speculation.
Once pte supply has increased say 2013/14, pte rental may drop and rental gap between HDB and Pte may narrow if FT intake still controlled. Policy may change to stop HDB rental and tenant still able to switch to pte tho size will be smaller. This may kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Improve HDB resale supply instead of supply coming in ~8yrs from now, and pte owner can still use the rental to help with instalment. And gradually increase supply to cater for 6.5mil.
Last hear (without statistical backing) one HDB master room rental is ard $1k n a 3rm HDB flat is ard $1.5k. So over next 3yrs price gap may narrow if pte rental drop due to more supply.
Well having say that only our dear minister will have all the necessary data on hand to decide what policy is good for the market, all other opinion are pure speculation. :cheers6:
Many pte property owners are holding on to HDB, and many are also planning to move into pte property and rent out HDB. Banning HDB ownership will unleash a lot of HDB units into the market suddenly, depress the pte property buying power of HDB upgraders, and cause panic in the market.
Many pte property owners are holding on to HDB, and many are also planning to move into pte property and rent out HDB. Banning HDB ownership will unleash a lot of HDB units into the market suddenly, depress the pte property buying power of HDB upgraders, and cause panic in the market.
This could just be the scared cow to kill in order to alleviate COV . But it will come at a huge political price. If done properly, it will not cause mkt panic.
1st HDB should discontinue the policy of banning concurrent pte pty ownership except for PR. 2nd they should instead enact a policy requiring pte pty owner to stay in HDB to retain ownership of their public housing unit. Owner can rent out their pte pty but must stay in their HDB. 3rd HDB should shorten MOP to 2-3 years. These measures could help push more resale units into the mkt thus reducing COV while letting more savy HDB owner invests in pte pty.......
isn't HDB supply what MND trying to tackle? Just disallow HDB ownership for private prop owners & we will get instant ready to live in supply!
MND should just focus on solving HDB problem & stop mandling in private market! get ride of SSD as it is a sickening rule with private prop price increase now even much lower than HDB prices!
This could just be the scared cow to kill in order to alleviate COV . But it will come at a huge political price. If done properly, it will not cause mkt panic.
1st HDB should discontinue the policy of banning concurrent pte pty ownership except for PR. 2nd they should instead enact a policy requiring pte pty owner to stay in HDB to retain ownership of their public housing unit. Owner can rent out their pte pty but must stay in their HDB. 3rd HDB should shorten MOP to 2-3 years. These measures could help push more resale units into the mkt thus reducing COV while letting more savy HDB owner invests in pte pty.......
isn't HDB supply what MND trying to tackle? Just disallow HDB ownership for private prop owners & we will get instant ready to live in supply!
MND should just focus on solving HDB problem & stop mandling in private market! get ride of SSD as it is a sickening rule with private prop price increase now even much lower than HDB prices!They will try as much not to meddle with private housing matters but this part of the market is still within the care of MND, unfortunately... :p
Even if no amendment to HDB rental policy, pte supply increment in 2013/14 will be met with similar if not more increment in the the public supply too. :o
Would like to offer my alternate view on public supply.
Come 2013/14, public supply will not increase drastically if the flat is based on recent launch due to 5yrs Mop. Price pressure on resales will still be there with more pte owner keeping their HDB flat for rental gain. Hee I am equally quietly too:D
devilplate
04-07-11, 09:52
MND should just focus on solving HDB problem & stop mandling in private market! get ride of SSD as it is a sickening rule with private prop price increase now even much lower than HDB prices!
ya la....HDB rise faster den OCR condos....how can tat be!?!?!:doh:
govt supposedly got more control over HDB prices den condos....lol:rolleyes:
devilplate
04-07-11, 09:53
They will try as much not to meddle with private housing matters but this part of the market is still within the care of MND, unfortunately... :p
i tink the very first step is to scrap all future DBSS land for sale
devilplate
04-07-11, 09:55
Would like to offer my alternate view on public supply.
Come 2013/14, public supply will not increase drastically if the flat is based on recent launch due to 5yrs Mop. Price pressure on resales will still be there with more pte owner keeping their HDB flat for rental gain. Hee I am equally quietly too:D
3rm old old hdb flat fetch 1.8-even 2.5k, triple cfm double digit rental yield for them (5yrs ago, HDB 3rm flat 150-180k only)
even based on 300k, 1.8k rental gives them 7% yield
Many pte property owners are holding on to HDB, and many are also planning to move into pte property and rent out HDB. Banning HDB ownership will unleash a lot of HDB units into the market suddenly, depress the pte property buying power of HDB upgraders, and cause panic in the market.
You indeed pin point the issue here. Why are pte owner jogging to their HDB flat which created the pressure on HDB supply hence pushes price upwards?
All the while I got the impression from govt upgrade is to sell urcurrent flat and move to bigger and/or better flat for better life :). Maybe I got the wrong idea.
As for pte price dipping,with rental supply from public competing the pie, not able to rent out will in crease fire sales by 13/14, pte price may still dip.
devilplate
04-07-11, 10:13
As for pte price dipping,with rental supply from public competing the pie, not able to rent out will in crease fire sales by 13/14, pte price may still dip.
not so simple....HDb oredi relax the subletting of whole unit few yrs ago oredi....
last time must stay in HDB flat if they own pte ppty concurrently, but bcoz govt wana open foreign workers floodgate, so they relax the rules.....they aso noe got many lock 1rm illegal subletting cases, but they aso close one eye as long nobody complains...but last 2yrs they goto clamp down illegal subletting due to many many complaints lor....tat results in a drop in HDb rental supply ....perhaps 5-10% at least? hehe
i m ok for locals to benefit la....the worse is to allow PR to do the same!:banghead:
This move will pull down your pte property prices indirectly.
Fundamentally the approach is flawed so if govt continue to address the need on demand and keep building more public houses with an artificial supply crunch due to owner keeping their HDB cash cow for rental gain. One day the rental mkt will be flooded with lots of supply from both public n pte housing. Price of public or pte will be affected. Of course unless it is part of the plan of the bigger goal to provide affordable rental for the guture 6.5mil. Then I rest my view:ashamed1:
3rm old old hdb flat fetch 1.8-even 2.5k, triple cfm double digit rental yield for them (5yrs ago, HDB 3rm flat 150-180k only)
even based on 300k, 1.8k rental gives them 7% yield
With such yield and low maintenance fee. The choice is obvious and more people will continue this game and move to pte. A clear sign was the article written by a journalist asking to do away with MOP so she can rent out her whole flat to pay for a more centrally located unit. What is going on... :cheers6:
Well key is to keep the HDB cashcow as per your advice, if opportunity comes can also join in the fun if you can't beat it ha ha:D
devilplate
04-07-11, 10:27
Fundamentally the approach is flawed so if govt continue to address the need on demand and keep building more public houses with an artificial supply crunch due to owner keeping their HDB cash cow for rental gain. One day the rental mkt will be flooded with lots of supply from both public n pte housing. Price of public or pte will be affected. Of course unless it is part of the plan of the bigger goal to provide affordable rental for the guture 6.5mil. Then I rest my view:ashamed1:
how about those holding many many multiple units? oversupply story always there
but imagine HDB restricts/tighten HDB subletting, rental will shoot up immediately as we oredi noe old old 3rm flat fetches 2k on average now which is oredi super high!:scared-3:
population cfm rise one la....govt build so many MRT for? so so many lines......last time 3mil can survive wif just EW and NS line.....now got NEL, DTL1,2,3, circe line, TSL, ERL....
devilplate
04-07-11, 10:33
With such yield and low maintenance fee. The choice is obvious and more people will continue this game and move to pte. A clear sign was the article written by a journalist asking to do away with MOP so she can rent out her whole flat to pay for a more centrally located unit. What is going on... :cheers6:
Well key is to keep the HDB cashcow as per your advice, if opportunity comes can also join in the fun if you can't beat it ha ha:D
dunwan la....buy liao goto stay HDB for 5yrs regardless got grant anot....damn bohua one lor....last time 3yrs MOP only without grant....somemore goto sell all pte ppty....i leave the priviledge for others:D
not so simple....HDb oredi relax the subletting of whole unit few yrs ago oredi....
last time must stay in HDB flat if they own pte ppty concurrently, but bcoz govt wana open foreign workers floodgate, so they relax the rules.....they aso noe got many lock 1rm illegal subletting cases, but they aso close one eye as long nobody complains...but last 2yrs they goto clamp down illegal subletting due to many many complaints lor....tat results in a drop in HDb rental supply ....perhaps 5-10% at least? hehe
i m ok for locals to benefit la....the worse is to allow PR to do the same!:banghead:
Let's not blame them. There is an opportunity why not exploit it and afterallnthey are given the rights to do so after they fulfill the MOP.
how about those holding many many multiple units? oversupply story always there
but imagine HDB restricts/tighten HDB subletting, rental will shoot up immediately as we oredi noe old old 3rm flat fetches 2k on average now which is oredi super high!:scared-3:
population cfm rise one la....govt build so many MRT for? so so many lines......last time 3mil can survive wif just EW and NS line.....now got NEL, DTL1,2,3, circe line, TSL, ERL....
True.
Anyway there is no way the change of policy can implement immediately as there are on going lease contract. At least adv notice of 2 to3yrs for those who just entered a lease contract. So with the onset of pte supply 13/14 will be able to absorb and level impact of shortage. Mentioned inearlier post,only govt have all the data to shape what is best for the nation. Here is wild guessing to kill time only. ;)
On 1 hand they are in control of HDB flats via MND (they can control supply via building HDB flats and they can control demand via rules and regulations they have absolute control in changing) and they promise to solve the complaint about run-away HDB flats prices. On the other hand the HDB flats prices are running away much faster than private properties which is slowing down by so much vs the increasing by so much for the HDB flats' prices? Either they are incompentent or they are not doing what they said they want to do! They can slap 4yrs 16% SSD on private properties and they can't do the same for HDB flats via simiar draconian measures? :doh: Simple lah, let me give them some suggestions:
1) Nobody is allowed to simultaneous own HDB flat and private properties. (They can either keep private or keep HDB).
2) 10 years MOP.
3) HDB flats for own stay only, cannot rent out! :cheers1:
ya la....HDB rise faster den OCR condos....how can tat be!?!?!:doh:
govt supposedly got more control over HDB prices den condos....lol:rolleyes:
Rentals are for PRs and foreigners.
If govt sincerely want to persuade PRs to become Citizens and foreigners to become PRs, just stop PRs from buying HDB flats! They either convert to citizens or they pay high rentals!
For foreign workers (maids, construction workers), they don't pay rent! Aren't we suppose to be getting high-end skilled foreigners who are supposed to be able to pay rent of $3k and above? If not why are these people here to compete with the middle income citizens and deprive them of their jobs? :doh: Why is MND creating a HDB rental market for the low-end foreigners to rent? Don't we see that the crimes situation getting worse in Singapore? Padangs slashing, knife gutting! Wow! :scared-1:
how about those holding many many multiple units? oversupply story always there
but imagine HDB restricts/tighten HDB subletting, rental will shoot up immediately as we oredi noe old old 3rm flat fetches 2k on average now which is oredi super high!:scared-3:
population cfm rise one la....govt build so many MRT for? so so many lines......last time 3mil can survive wif just EW and NS line.....now got NEL, DTL1,2,3, circe line, TSL, ERL....
devilplate
04-07-11, 11:33
Rentals are for PRs and foreigners.
If govt sincerely want to persuade PRs to become Citizens and foreigners to become PRs, just stop PRs from buying HDB flats! They either convert to citizens or they pay high rentals!
For foreign workers (maids, construction workers), they don't pay rent! Aren't we suppose to be getting high-end skilled foreigners who are supposed to be able to pay rent of $3k and above? If not why are these people here to compete with the middle income citizens and deprive them of their jobs? :doh: Why is MND creating a HDB rental market for the low-end foreigners to rent?
how abt service sector....i tink we nid those foreign workers.....
those filip, msians, or even PRC provides much better customer service standard as compared to locals lor....hard truth....lol
devilplate
04-07-11, 11:35
Why is MND creating a HDB rental market for the low-end foreigners to rent? Don't we see that the crimes situation getting worse in Singapore? Padangs slashing, knife gutting! Wow! :scared-1:
yes, our police force better buck up too....so many death cases happening for the past few mths!:scared-1:
Really? those foreigners customer service sucks (excep Malaysia & Filips generally). There are so many youngsters out of jobs or having to endure low pay. Getting rid of these low-pay foreigners will let them have higher pays (ask their bosses don't earn so much lah). Don't we see the bosses earning so much more while their workers getting less & less? Why? Isn't the root reason because of these cheap low end foreign workers? :doh:
As a matter of guide, all jobs that cannot be moved overseas (particularly the local service jobs) should be reserved for citizens only! (More incentives for PRs to convert to citizens!). :p
All the talks about if don't let them the bosses employ foreigners they will shift their businesses overseas are bull-shit! Let them shift their restaurants, their cars servicing centres, their hospitals, their clinics, their retail shops, etc that provide local services & need local shop-fronts overseas lah if they can! Who cares?! :tongue3:
how abt service sector....i tink we nid those foreign workers.....
those filip, msians, or even PRC provides much better customer service standard as compared to locals lor....hard truth....lol
devilplate
04-07-11, 13:44
Really? those foreigners customer service sucks (excep Malaysia & Filips generally). There are so many youngsters out of jobs or having to endure low pay. Getting rid of these low-pay foreigners will let them have higher pays (ask their bosses don't earn so much lah). Don't we see the bosses earning so much more while their workers getting less & less? Why? Isn't the root reason because of these cheap low end foreign workers? :doh:
As a matter of guide, all jobs that cannot be moved overseas (particularly the local service jobs) should be reserved for citizens only! (More incentives for PRs to convert to citizens!). :p
All the talks about if don't let them the bosses employ foreigners they will shift their businesses overseas are bull-shit! Let them shift their restaurants, their cars servicing centres, their hospitals, their clinics, their retail shops, etc that provide local services & need local shop-fronts overseas lah if they can! Who cares?! :tongue3:
Er...locals not willing to work in service line one la....low pay n long hours....1.5k pay nia for waitress....up their pay to wat inorder to attract locals to work? 2.5k? Den bosses will up the food px tag anot?:scared-5:
Just heard that KBW has suspended all sales of land parcels for DBSS to review this tier of HDB flats... so they are reading our threads! :D
Simple lah, let me give them some suggestions:
1) Nobody is allowed to simultaneous own HDB flat and private properties. (They can either keep private or keep HDB).
2) 10 years MOP.
3) HDB flats for own stay only, cannot rent out! :cheers1:If they take up your suggestions, Singapore's housing market will enter a critical state of severe disorder... :scared-4: :D
devilplate
04-07-11, 14:17
If they take up your suggestions, Singapore's housing market will enter a critical state of severe disorder... :scared-4: :D
Especially the last point whereby no subletting of hdb totally:hell-hath-no-fury:
Especially the last point whereby no subletting of hdb totally:hell-hath-no-fury:Yes, its not just an act of shooting himself in the foot but its as good as sinking the PAP ship! Hahaha! :doh:
Cannot rent out HDB flats will be interesting but alot of havoc.
Perhaps rule will come in to say cannot rent out HDB until the bulk supply comes in 2015. Then alot of Singaporeans who own private and HDB will sell out one, most likely HDB.
Private property will rise until out of reach for most Singaporeans.
Then the young instead of complaining not enough HDB..... will complain private property out of reach.
Then again, maybe they will not.... coz they claim they are pursuing not the usual 5Cs..... and pursuing some highly spiritual 5Cs.... which I can't rememeber.
Private property officially becomes playground of the rich and Singaporeans can be proud of their HDB heritage! World Class Public Housing!!! Only Singaporeans can live in and can never move out! :D
Private property officially becomes playground of the rich and Singaporeans can be proud of their HDB heritage! World Class Public Housing!!! Only Singaporeans can live in and can never move out! :DTour guide: Welcome to Singapore. This is the infamous HDB flats you see on your right.
Tourist: Hey why are there so many people inside those pigeon units calling for help?
Tour guide: Oh yes... they can't get out once they entered! We boost the world's first home prison. Different from house arrest! Hahahaha! :spliff:
On 1 hand they are in control of HDB flats via MND (they can control supply via building HDB flats and they can control demand via rules and regulations they have absolute control in changing) and they promise to solve the complaint about run-away HDB flats prices. On the other hand the HDB flats prices are running away much faster than private properties which is slowing down by so much vs the increasing by so much for the HDB flats' prices? Either they are incompentent or they are not doing what they said they want to do! They can slap 4yrs 16% SSD on private properties and they can't do the same for HDB flats via simiar draconian measures? :doh: Simple lah, let me give them some suggestions:
1) Nobody is allowed to simultaneous own HDB flat and private properties. (They can either keep private or keep HDB).
2) 10 years MOP.
3) HDB flats for own stay only, cannot rent out! :cheers1:
Wow fierce.
Believe too drastic policy change will have repercussion.
Should allow govt to work on supply crunch before any policy change.
At least 2-3yrs of adv notice to cater for on going lease to expire.
Frankly FW accommodation is definitely a concern and will remain as a problem as pte rent to come down to $500 per room may not be realistic.
As for FT is good to understand is there a net wealth requirement to become PR if any. Then is clearer if FT can afford to rent pte.
As we all knows well we need both FW n FT so we also cannot have the cake n eat it. :2cents:
Bosses up food price and more people will eat at home with family mah, more family friendly like in UK and US! :p
Er...locals not willing to work in service line one la....low pay n long hours....1.5k pay nia for waitress....up their pay to wat inorder to attract locals to work? 2.5k? Den bosses will up the food px tag anot?:scared-5:
If 4years 16% SSD for private properties, the most draconian measure that even HK never ever introduced, and SG private property market didn't enter into critical state of severe disorder and instead has slowed the price rise effectively, similar draconian measure is really needed for HDB flats to tame their run-away price rises! :beats-me-man:
If they take up your suggestions, Singapore's housing market will enter a critical state of severe disorder... :scared-4: :D
On what basis can they complain about private property out of reach? Private properties are meant for top 20% earners and when they get into top 20% earners, they can afford. Private properties are not "Public HDB flats" where govt need to ensure that they are affordable to most people. :tsk-tsk: If they intend to do so, firstly they also need to ensure most people earn same salary as they themselves the PM and Ministers mah?? :p
Complaining private property out of reach is like complaining why those Ministers and CEOs earning $Millions a year? :doh: Might as well ask them to take same pay as complainers? :banghead:
Cannot rent out HDB flats will be interesting but alot of havoc.
Perhaps rule will come in to say cannot rent out HDB until the bulk supply comes in 2015. Then alot of Singaporeans who own private and HDB will sell out one, most likely HDB.
Private property will rise until out of reach for most Singaporeans.
Then the young instead of complaining not enough HDB..... will complain private property out of reach.
Then again, maybe they will not.... coz they claim they are pursuing not the usual 5Cs..... and pursuing some highly spiritual 5Cs.... which I can't rememeber.
Private property officially becomes playground of the rich and Singaporeans can be proud of their HDB heritage! World Class Public Housing!!! Only Singaporeans can live in and can never move out! :D
The basis does not matter, it's the mentality of the young now.
I WANT IT AND I WANT IT CHEAP, AND I WANT TO RENT OUT MY BRAND NEW HDB WITHOUT 5 YEAR MOP. (Glad.....ys Chung)
NOTHING IS EVER ENOUGH.
IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME, I WILL COMPLAIN OR VOTE YOU OUT.
They can slap 4yrs 16% SSD on private properties and they can't do the same for HDB flats via simiar draconian measures? :doh: Simple lah, let me give them some suggestions:
1) Nobody is allowed to simultaneous own HDB flat and private properties. (They can either keep private or keep HDB).
2) 10 years MOP.
3) HDB flats for own stay only, cannot rent out! :cheers1:
I agree. Speaking from a citizen's standpoint, they don't sound draconian to me at all. Can't really remember but I think before 2003, the above measures were the norm right?
I remember for the longest time since the early '90s I have held the belief that as a private property owner I couldn't own a HDB but have never felt it to be unfair. When I first started out, I recall being advised strongly by friends not to touch private properties as that will forever deny me my right to a HDB(even a resale). Even in '91 after the first Iraq War when private was still affordable, people still favoured HDB so as not to lose the right to HDB.
Anyway, just my thoughts. I think most people on the forum will disagree with this.
I agree. Speaking from a citizen's standpoint, they don't sound draconian to me at all. Can't really remember but I think before 2003, the above measures were the norm right?
I remember for the longest time since the early '90s I have held the belief that as a private property owner I couldn't own a HDB but have never felt it to be unfair. When I first started out, I recall being advised strongly by friends not to touch private properties as that will forever deny me my right to a HDB(even a resale). Even in '91 after the first Iraq War when private was still affordable, people still favoured HDB so as not to lose the right to HDB.
Anyway, just my thoughts. I think most people on the forum will disagree with this.
Sound logical. Maybe a less drastic approach is to introduce rental tax since HDB is subsidized flat as an interim to see if resales price can be tame. Then with more supply in both HDB n pte 2 to 3yrs later govt will be in a better position to work out a feasible and holistic solution.
All things need time to heal :p
kingkong1984
04-07-11, 18:53
can lah.. give 6 months notice.. can impose anything thereafter.
I support no rental of HDBs. It's even politically correct now: HDB should not be an instrument of profiting. Or at least make it very very difficult to rent out legally. I remember last time HDB cannot be rented out unless u r posted overseas or something. So it's nothing special.
Low end rental can be supported by the massive OCR condos.
And yes pte ptys are for the top 20%. Although I believe now no one dare to say that publicly. Will be condemned by all the "loud voices" in facebook. :cool:
Ppl have to know, in a free capitalist society/economy , it's just normal the top 20% will be significantly richer than the rest! The leader of HK just said something to that effect while commenting on HK pty prices.
Just heard that KBW has suspended all sales of land parcels for DBSS to review this tier of HDB flats... so they are reading our threads! :D
I don't think the HDB directors are so free as they are busy fighting fires now. DBSS is in a grey zone, and KBW made a mistake because he wasn't briefed properly when he took over HDB. This could be because DBSS land sales had generated so much cash for HDB/MOF that the government profited greatly from it instead of subsidising it.
I support no rental of HDBs. It's even politically correct now: HDB should not be an instrument of profiting. Or at least make it very very difficult to rent out legally. I remember last time HDB cannot be rented out unless u r posted overseas or something. So it's nothing special.
Low end rental can be supported by the massive OCR condos.
And yes pte ptys are for the top 20%. Although I believe now no one dare to say that publicly. Will be condemned by all the "loud voices" in facebook. :cool:
Ppl have to know, in a free capitalist society/economy , it's just normal the top 20% will be significantly richer than the rest! The leader of HK just said something to that effect while commenting on HK pty prices.
With regards of lower end rental to be addressed by mass condo may not work well as mass condo had rocket high last 2yrs. So $500 per room rental will not work IMO.
If goes back to can rent out HDB flat but owner have to stay in will be back to sq one where lock rm rent out etc which leads to govt open the gate to rent out whole flat policy leading to current problem as officers are stretch to police non compliance.
Unless neighbors are step up to watch out any rowdiness or over crowded units with 3-4pax renting 1room.
Ever seen some flat housing 7pax from Malaysia as they are working for zhe char store so sharing 3 room flat can share cost.
In order not to degrade our living env is good to regulate so neighbors can help to uphold if any owner voilate purely for $ gain.
A gracious society is key andeveryone plays a great part on it
The basis does not matter, it's the mentality of the young now.
I WANT IT AND I WANT IT CHEAP, AND I WANT TO RENT OUT MY BRAND NEW HDB WITHOUT 5 YEAR MOP. (Glad.....ys Chung)
NOTHING IS EVER ENOUGH.
IF YOU DON'T GIVE ME, I WILL COMPLAIN OR VOTE YOU OUT.
AND I WANT IT NOW:mad:
Easy wah, HDB flats can only rent out rooms, not whole unit. That will solve Govt's problem if they insist on creating low rental for single FWs. If FWs have families here they must be middle income and above ones, already can afford mass market condo rentals wah. :cheers1:
All renting out of rooms must be reported by owners. All FWs working in Singapore must also update their addresses when they change, otherwise they work permit will be cancelled and they have to leave immediately if discovered. That solves the problem of owners renting out whole units and also in policing these! Owners who rent out whole units will have their units compulsorily acquired at valuation and slapped with 16% SSD. :tsk-tsk:
With regards of lower end rental to be addressed by mass condo may not work well as mass condo had rocket high last 2yrs. So $500 per room rental will not work IMO.
If goes back to can rent out HDB flat but owner have to stay in will be back to sq one where lock rm rent out etc which leads to govt open the gate to rent out whole flat policy leading to current problem as officers are stretch to police non compliance.
Unless neighbors are step up to watch out any rowdiness or over crowded units with 3-4pax renting 1room.
Ever seen some flat housing 7pax from Malaysia as they are working for zhe char store so sharing 3 room flat can share cost.
In order not to degrade our living env is good to regulate so neighbors can help to uphold if any owner voilate purely for $ gain.
A gracious society is key andeveryone plays a great part on it
Give them now lah by forbidding foreign property owners to own HDB flats, sure got lots of immediate to occupy resale flats become available for sale! :p
AND I WANT IT NOW:mad:
Fixcat, my point is , rent out room should also not be allowed. In short HDB is for living not to make profit. Also too much rental in HDB brews a lot of social problems.
Mass condo rental will come down. 2k rent for a 3rm HDB is not normal.
I support no rental of HDBs. It's even politically correct now: HDB should not be an instrument of profiting. Or at least make it very very difficult to rent out legally. I remember last time HDB cannot be rented out unless u r posted overseas or something. So it's nothing special.
Low end rental can be supported by the massive OCR condos.
And yes pte ptys are for the top 20%. Although I believe now no one dare to say that publicly. Will be condemned by all the "loud voices" in facebook. :cool:
Ppl have to know, in a free capitalist society/economy , it's just normal the top 20% will be significantly richer than the rest! The leader of HK just said something to that effect while commenting on HK pty prices.
HDB even sublets its own flats directly but distances itself by getting managing agents to do it for them. Chances of preventing subletting of HDB flats has serious repercussions because a lot of lowly paid foreign workers will be squeezed if they have to rent pte properties. Companies will have to raise their salaries that will in turn pass the higher cost to the general public. Some workers will resort to crimes to support their living costs here. Old folks who depend on rental to survive will face difficulties. But pte property landlords will rejoice. You only want to benefit the people who deserve the least help?
Why not try something totally new and revolutionary? Have the option of selling the HDB back to govt on a sell back scheme like those old flats, but only now its much newer flats for certain amount like 80% of market value and govt will provide a fixed monthly payout equivalent to the current rental market so in return you secure a rental yield over the next 10 years after MOP, subjected to negotiation to ensure that the rental yield will definitely be more than the 20% of the flat which the sellers forfeited.
This will make many HDB owners surrender their HDB flats rather than holding on to it for rental yield over next 20 years or something! Its a take it or leave it scenario. If you sell to govt, you take some earnings to buy your next property and still have rental income. This deal would only hold for the first 10 years after MOP.
Then HDB will do up these flats like DBSS and sell at a slightly higher price with some added features like alarm and security for each individual unit, etc (can brainstorm further) to recuperate the losses incurred. Alternatively, HDB can also transform these flats into rental flats to recover their losses and so actually still earn in the long run. Here, HDB can tackle several problems at one go.
1. Can ensure that HDB resale supply is not terminated.
2. Can have continual supply in matured estates instead of looking for new land to build HDB in these places.
3. Help HDB upgarders fulfill their dreams of staying in condos.
4. Have more control over the public housing rental market
:p Much to debate about but that's just my whacky suggestion! :p
Why not try some totally new and revolutionary? Have the option of selling the HDB back to govt on a sell back scheme like those old flats, but only now its much newer flats for certain amount like 80% of market value and govt will provide a fixed monthly payout equivalent to the current rental market so in return you secure a rental yield over the next 10 years or something, subjected to negotiation to ensure that the rental yield will definitely be more than the 20% of the flat which the sellers forfeited.
This will make many HDB owners surrender their HDB flats rather than holding on to it for rental yield over next 20 years or something! Its a take it or leave it scenario. If you sell to govt, you take some earnings to buy your next property and still have rental income. This deal would only hold for the first 10 years after MOP.
Then HDB will do up these flats like DBSS and sell at a slightly higher price with some added features like alarm and security for each individual unit, etc (can brainstorm further). So can tackle several problems at one go.
1. Can ensure that HDB resale supply is not terminated.
2. Can have continual supply in matured estates instead of looking for new land to build HDB in these places.
3. Help HDB upgarders fulfill their dreams of staying in condos.
:p Much to debate about but that's just my whacky suggestion! :p
HDB needs to hold on to enormous amount of cash by borrowing from the banks. This could push it into deficit by virtual of its interests cost. In the event of economic crunch, HDB could collapse when everybody tries to sell back their flat to HDB because it is obliged to do so. I doubt HDB/MOF will agree to this $ losing scheme.
HDB needs to hold on to enormous amount of cash by borrowing from the banks. This could push it into deficit by virtual of its interests cost. In the event of economic crunch, HDB could collapse when everybody tries to sell back their flat to HDB because it is obliged to do so. I doubt HDB/MOF will agree to this $ losing scheme.Well HDB has the holding power so during down times, valuation of the flats would be very low and HDB take them back low and wait till market recovers and earn back 50% more??? :cheers1: The idea's pretty whacky, isn't it? If HDB cannot take such risks, no one else can! :o
Well HDB has the holding power so during down times, valuation of the flats would be very low and HDB take them back low and wait till market recovers and earn back 50% more??? :cheers1: The idea's pretty whacky, isn't it? If HDB cannot take such risks, no one else can! :o
How to balance a budget like that? It will create enormous swings, and people will accuse of HDB profiteering from people during downturns (buy from people on the cheap) or upturns (sell to people for large profit). That's all from me for these issues as I'm not paid million dollar celery but somebody else is! ;)
Well HDB has the holding power so during down times, valuation of the flats would be very low and HDB take them back low and wait till market recovers and earn back 50% more??? :cheers1: The idea's pretty whacky, isn't it? If HDB cannot take such risks, no one else can! :o
haha that's no small risk. Later KBW kena another heart attack for this.
HDB even sublets its own flats directly but distances itself by getting managing agents to do it for them. Chances of preventing subletting of HDB flats has serious repercussions because a lot of lowly paid foreign workers will be squeezed if they have to rent pte properties. Companies will have to raise their salaries that will in turn pass the higher cost to the general public. Some workers will resort to crimes to support their living costs here. Old folks who depend on rental to survive will face difficulties. But pte property landlords will rejoice. You only want to benefit the people who deserve the least help?
I believe the people who needs the most help are the future generation. With policies that permit monetising of HDB flats, it has become a cash cow rather than a means of abode.
With everyone hoping to milk the cash cow to death, there is little hope that the prices will ever be a reasonable level. It can only taper or plateau.
You are right that HDB is also subletting directly. For example, 4 block of HDB flats in Bedok South went enbloc and residents had to be vacated to make way for new flats. But the flats were instead re-configured to sublet to FW. You see, even HDB wants to milk the cash cow.
In my opinion, this goes against the grain of public housing.
In short, the public housing market needs to be totally transformed to account for the last 50 years of successes. Need to catch up with times! :D
bargain hunter
04-07-11, 23:08
the poorer pple ie part of the 80% who do not live in the 20% elite pte ppty have already been allowed to use it to supplement their income. it will be difficult to reverse this. again, it might cause a lot of discontentment on the ground. afterall foreigners already competing for jobs etc, now want to cut off their supplementary income somemore? i dun think they will implement this.
Fixcat, my point is , rent out room should also not be allowed. In short HDB is for living not to make profit. Also too much rental in HDB brews a lot of social problems.
Mass condo rental will come down. 2k rent for a 3rm HDB is not normal.
You want to help those who deserve more help, the low income group? Easy lah, get rid of all those lowly paid foreign workers renting HDB flats now from Singapore! Bosses have no choice but to increase pay of the low income groups and they will benefit tremendously! Why should the bosses keep all the profit and become big fat cats? Construction workers and maids' accomodations are provided by bosses directly so they won't be renting HDB flats. :p
My understanding is many of these low-income foreigners working in Singapore are working in service sectors which can't be shifted overseas and hence the jobs should rightly be reserved for citizens! All the talks about don't let them employ foreigners they shift overseas are bullshit! Ask them to shift their restaurants, hospitals, clinics, retail shops, service centres overseas lah! :doh:
HDB even sublets its own flats directly but distances itself by getting managing agents to do it for them. Chances of preventing subletting of HDB flats has serious repercussions because a lot of lowly paid foreign workers will be squeezed if they have to rent pte properties. Companies will have to raise their salaries that will in turn pass the higher cost to the general public. Some workers will resort to crimes to support their living costs here. Old folks who depend on rental to survive will face difficulties. But pte property landlords will rejoice. You only want to benefit the people who deserve the least help?
You want to help those who deserve more help, the low income group? Easy lah, get rid of all those lowly paid foreign workers renting HDB flats now from Singapore! Bosses have no choice but to increase pay of the low income groups and they will benefit tremendously! Why should the bosses keep all the profit and become big fat cats? Construction workers and maids' accomodations are provided by bosses directly so they won't be renting HDB flats. :p
My understanding is many of these low-income foreigners working in Singapore are working in service sectors which can't be shifted overseas and hence the jobs should rightly be reserved for citizens! All the talks about don't let them employ foreigners they shift overseas are bullshit! Ask them to shift their restaurants, hospitals, clinics, retail shops, service centres overseas lah! :doh:
I agreed with you on this....:D :D :D :D
From all your posts I come tone conclusion.... It's a big mess by MBT... Now big problem... Don't know where to solve this.... If KBW can solve it I will really respect him... The problem is multi faceted man... If you act on one area the other other burst... Just
Ook atbthe 40% LTV... Now all buy OCR property coz down payment too big for CCR properties... Leadin to big bubble in ocr properties... Big big headache man.... Then look at 16% SSD leading to hdb up graders not wanting to move coz afraid to be tied down... Then no supply in resale market and the hdb cov keep going up.... Unintended consequences.... Troubled times indeed....
I've always mentioned that some of those old policies that no longer work simply have to go. No point holding on to them. That's the problem with some gxxx sectors. Always so eager to introduce new policies but forgot to review old ones. Always have this mentality that more is good and better! :doh:
The income ceiling review is long overdue.
Coming down hard on erring housing agents as well as project models, diagrams, etc are also long overdue.
Coming down hard on profiteering by developers must also be reviewed.
BTO flats must be removed according to seasons. Now is the season to build build build.
DBSS no longer serve its purpose well when so much profit has been made from public housing so must also be removed.
Plus many other policies... :o
It's difficult to control profiteering by developers. They are in the business to make profits. As long as there are people willing to buy at the ridiculously high prices they will continue to launch at higher and higher prices. What Govt can do is to make it harder and harder for people to buy at high prices. For example raising the LTV further for 2nd and subsequent properties.
It's difficult to control profiteering by developers. They are in the business to make profits. As long as there are people willing to buy at the ridiculously high prices they will continue to launch at higher and higher prices. What Govt can do is to make it harder and harder for people to buy at high prices. For example raising the LTV further for 2nd and subsequent properties.Agreed... therefore I've always advocated that
1. either the objective of public housing be honoured, so public housing should not be given to developers to make obscene amounts of profit from the 'poorer' Singaporeans (poor or not is another thread of argument altogether) or
2. the objective of public housing be reviewed and amended to allow developers to make profits. :p
Agreed that other policies can be reviewed. If want to whack hard hard, then legislate that 2nd property must be paid in full with no bank loans... :cheers1:I'll stay in my humble HDB then... hahaha!
devilplate
05-07-11, 08:19
implement too much tightening measures now....later downturn how?
ppl will blame on govt cooling measures instead of global crisis
Any amount of cooling measures will be met with some form of complaints by our new generation of home owners/buyers so its a futile effort. No CM also will have complaints de. Mr K is in the hot seat. Super hot seat!!! :doh:
From all your posts I come tone conclusion.... It's a big mess by MBT... Now big problem... Don't know where to solve this.... If KBW can solve it I will really respect him... The problem is multi faceted man... If you act on one area the other other burst... Just
Ook atbthe 40% LTV... Now all buy OCR property coz down payment too big for CCR properties... Leadin to big bubble in ocr properties... Big big headache man.... Then look at 16% SSD leading to hdb up graders not wanting to move coz afraid to be tied down... Then no supply in resale market and the hdb cov keep going up.... Unintended consequences.... Troubled times indeed....
Agree. The traditonal economic laws of Supply & Demand does not always work in property. When you try to tamper with Demand, Supply gets affected as well.
Why? Because those who form the demand group are also the ones to create the supply. It is not so simple as a car maker creating supply and the car buyer forms to demand. That's why it is so difficult to solve the problems.
Agree. The traditonal economic laws of Supply & Demand does not always work in property. When you try to tamper with Demand, Supply gets affected as well.
Why? Because those who form the demand group are also the ones to create the supply. It is not so simple as a car maker creating supply and the car buyer forms to demand. That's why it is so difficult to solve the problems.Also, the time lapse involved for most other supply and demand equations are relatively short and manageable but for houses, it can take well over 3 to 5 years of construction. Very difficult to manage! :p
devilplate
05-07-11, 10:47
Also, the time lapse involved for most other supply and demand equations are relatively short and manageable but for houses, it can take well over 3 to 5 years of construction. Very difficult to manage! :p
as i had always emphasize, demand can vanish overnight even for HDB BTOs
we can never control demand....unless follow china.....stop at 2....sounds like control birth rate....but jus imagine the side effect.......hehe
as i had always emphasize, demand can vanish overnight even for HDB BTOs
we can never control demand....unless follow china.....stop at 2....sounds like control birth rate....but jus imagine the side effect.......hehe
So will supply. It can vanish overnight too.:)
devilplate
05-07-11, 10:58
So will supply. It can vanish overnight too.:)
once GLS land is SOLD, the supply can be estimated oredi
govt can possibly remove those unsold sites under confirmed list out of market during a crash(or reject a bid stating below reserved price which is not known to the public)....in a way u r partially right aso la:spliff:
once GLS land is SOLD, the supply can be estimated oredi
govt can possibly remove those unsold sites under confirmed list out of market during a crash(or reject a bid stating below reserved price which is not known to the public)....in a way u r partially right aso la:spliff:
What I meant was, if people don't buy, then they also don't sell their house/flat. This will restrict supply in the market too.
After HDB rules changed in Aug 2010, people realised that once they sell their flat, they can never buy another HDB again. So all keep and hoard their HDB. No supply in the market and COV continues to go up and up...
why think so complicated?
just build more HDB flats in advance of demand.
and even if flats finished construction, remove some of the units from the market so that supply is reduced.
What is the cost of HDB? only holding cost.
That's the problem with experts. they tried to fine-tune the system so much, trying to match demand with supply. If there is an inbuilt fat or inefficiency, it is better for the overall system. :2cents:
(just think of it as engineering safety factor.)
why think so complicated?
just build more HDB flats in advance of demand.
and even if flats finished construction, remove some of the units from the market so that supply is reduced.
What is the cost of HDB? only holding cost.
That's the problem with experts. they tried to fine-tune the system so much, trying to match demand with supply. If there is an inbuilt fat or inefficiency, it is better for the overall system. :2cents:
(just think of it as engineering safety factor.)The engineer is speaking but I agree with your analysis. Just take the holding cost as cost to defray the cost that comes from those housing woes because of shortage of supply and the mad rush to push out land sales like crazy and to build BTO like never before. :o
devilplate
05-07-11, 11:21
why think so complicated?
just build more HDB flats in advance of demand.
and even if flats finished construction, remove some of the units from the market so that supply is reduced.
What is the cost of HDB? only holding cost.
That's the problem with experts. they tried to fine-tune the system so much, trying to match demand with supply. If there is an inbuilt fat or inefficiency, it is better for the overall system. :2cents:
(just think of it as engineering safety factor.)
its politically WRONG not to release completed HDB flats for sale.....
1st timer confirmed make noise and want govt to release to them at CHEAP CHEAP PRICE
why think so complicated?
just build more HDB flats in advance of demand.
and even if flats finished construction, remove some of the units from the market so that supply is reduced.
What is the cost of HDB? only holding cost.
That's the problem with experts. they tried to fine-tune the system so much, trying to match demand with supply. If there is an inbuilt fat or inefficiency, it is better for the overall system. :2cents:
(just think of it as engineering safety factor.)
You can't just remove the flats from the market. What if some of the flats in that block have been sold? 25% occupied, 75% unoccupied. It will pose a security problem for the 25% residents. Remember the Jurong West extension flats opposite NTU? They were largely unoccupied for a long time.
The lesson to learn is to build more BTOs, but in relatively more mature estates to soak up current demand. Sure taken up. And maybe one or two precints in outlying areas for those who want cheap cheap. This will reduce holding costs.
stalingrad
05-07-11, 15:49
You can't just remove the flats from the market. What if some of the flats in that block have been sold? 25% occupied, 75% unoccupied. It will pose a security problem for the 25% residents. Remember the Jurong West extension flats opposite NTU? They were largely unoccupied for a long time.
The lesson to learn is to build more BTOs, but in relatively more mature estates to soak up current demand. Sure taken up. And maybe one or two precints in outlying areas for those who want cheap cheap. This will reduce holding costs.
the solution is so simple. tell singaporeans that you can apply for a flat within two year after you get married. if you decide to pass up the opportunity to buy it from the government within that window, then you lose that privilege forever.
Then make planning decisions based on demographics. How many are born each year, and how what proportion will get married, and at what age?
With this system, you can estimate pretty accurately how many will apply for a flat in each year, and then build accordingly.
the problem with the current system is that citizens can apply when the wish. some apply when young, and others when old, thus making planning construction throwing a dart in the dark.
also, to make planning simple, government should tell the citizens that if you don't like what they are offered, you can wait but only until the two year window runs out. after that, buy you own property at your own expense.
By Getty Goh
People who have read my articles or spoken to me before may go away with the thinking that I am a perennial pessimist. In the past few months, I have been telling my friends and potential clients to stay away from the property market.
Some reasons behind my views are: (1) Private properties are very expensive right now and good deals are not as easy to find as compared to several quarters ago. (2) Government intervention measures put in place have increased the opportunity and investment cost of owning private properties and they are not as worthwhile as before. (3) Property prices will eventually turn and those who bought at peak prices would be caught with a loss-sustaining asset when property market sentiments cool.
Interestingly, Singapore private property prices have been continuously on the rise (http://sg.finance.yahoo.com/news/Private-home-prices-continue-pg-1145658686.html?x=0) and market observers have come up with many explanations on why this is happening. Some reasons range from the increase in foreign buyers to the low interest rate environment. I think most of them are valid assessments.
However, if I were to attribute it to a single factor, I would say that high prices are a result of an abundance of liquidity in the Singapore market. My company uses savings and other deposits as a proxy for liquidity within the real estate market as they represent monies that can be used for property deposits. They are also used as an indication of interest rates as there is an inverse relationship between liquidity and interest rates — the more liquidity the economy has, the lower the interest rates will be.
Figure 1: Money Supply in Singapore
http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/j2Pfm.EfAAQSTJE57QKPeA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTMxMA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en-SG/blogs/propertyblog/blog_moneysupply.jpg (http://media.zenfs.com/en-SG/blogs/propertyblog/blog_moneysupply.jpg) Liquidity may have an impact on Singapore property prices. (Screengrab of MAS data)
In an interview I did with Mr. Propwise for his book Secrets of Singapore Property Gurus, I raised the point that liquidity is going to be a key driver in determining how the Singapore property market will behave in the coming months. To illustrate my point, the data from the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS) in Figure 1 (http://www.singstat.gov.sg/stats/themes/economy/ess/essa131.pdf)shows that the savings and other deposits (including current account deposits) as at 2008 was more than S$100 billion. This was twice the amount that Singapore had in 1998, after the Asian Financial Crisis. In 2010, this amount increased by about 33 percent to S$136 billion.
So who will blink first?
As for the question, "Who will blink first?", I opined that as long as buyers have money for the high down payments and access to financing for their properties, properties will continue to be bought and sold at a price premium. From a cash-rich investor's perspective, it still makes sense to buy a property for rental right now. As even though the yield could be as low as 2 percent, interest rates that banks are currently giving for cash deposits are comparatively much lower.
Meanwhile, sellers will have to price their units higher to account for the additional charges brought about by the anti-speculation measures that were supposed to keep the escalation of property prices in check. In another words, as long as there is an abundance of liquidity and buyers are prepared to pay, there is no incentive for developers and property owners to lower their high asking prices.
I recently had a discussion with a friend who worked as an editor with The Economist and he wondered if high property prices will be the new norm. Seeing how some new HDB flats were almost launched at S$880,000, the environment of high property prices looks set to stay.
However, I have to constantly remind myself that the property market is cyclical. Hence the real issue is not whether property prices will eventually fall, but when it will actually happen. And when it does happen, it will likely be brought about by changing financing conditions rather than increasing transaction fees or controlling ownership.
Getty Goh is director of Ascendant Assets (http://www.ascendantassets.com/index.html), a real estate research and investment consultancy firm. This article is posted courtesy of www.Propwise.sg (http://www.propwise.sg/), a Singapore property (http://www.propwise.sg/) blog dedicated to helping you understand the real estate market and make better decisions.
stalingrad
05-07-11, 15:55
governments can do only so much to pamper citizens. if the government bends backward to make that fat lady (with huge...) columnist in ST happy, then it will bankrupt the government.
all above are details, to be tuned a bit.
for example, HDB can follow private developers marketing campaign.
sell block by block. Differentiate prices by facing and floor.
What is public housing anyway? If it is cheap, public housing. If expensive, private housing. That's the basic definition.
Always ensure a supply of finished blocks available. Assured the kan-ceong spiders that supply is aplenty. Managed public perception, a skill which I think Singapore government is sore lacking.
How to stop a bank run? For example, look at the film "empire of silver". They send stones to the bank, but the public perceived it as silver, and thus the bank was saved.
Getty goh 's article is another fence sitter no value add article. Doesn't help prospective buyers whether they should buy now or buy later.
Getty goh 's article is another fence sitter no value add article. Doesn't help prospective buyers whether they should buy now or buy later.
I thought she said she is a perenial pessimist? So, it should be not to buy now.
My own take is that if for own stay, find a condo that you really like (location, views, layout etc).
1. Work out your affordability e.g 30% to 35% debt servicing ratio based on current income (not future income) and interest rate of 4% or 5%, not current interest rate.
2. Keep sufficient cash or CPF to maintain the monthly instalments for at least a year. This is to tide you over in case you lose your job and can find some time to sell off your house rather than going through a fire sale.
Enjoy that dream home because it is not easy to find. If it is a BUC, take opportunity in the next 2 to 3 years whilst the condo is under construction to build up your savings.
For investment, my own believe is to wait.
Getty goh 's article is another fence sitter no value add article. Doesn't help prospective buyers whether they should buy now or buy later.
all these clowns like to tcss...thats my opinion...:scared-4:
The first half of the article starts off in a pessimistic fashion but second half, it starts analysing why price rises might continue. So it merely confuses the reader. Like you, for sole primary residence, I would suggest people to buy very selectively. With a few exceptions like perhaps esparina and prive, most of these selective opportunities are in resale. The premiums on new developments have more downside in times of crisis.
devilplate
06-07-11, 10:03
all these clowns like to tcss...thats my opinion...:scared-4:
actually not so bad la....they highlight all the possibilities from different angles and leave it to the readers to take side lor
actually not so bad la....they highlight all the possibilities from different angles and leave it to the readers to take side lor
at least have a conclusion, buy or don't buy. don't fence sit. that is my point to these articles. have the guts to make a stand.
devilplate
06-07-11, 15:07
at least have a conclusion, buy or don't buy. don't fence sit. that is my point to these articles. have the guts to make a stand.
Hard to have any conclusion....goto source for gd deals too....mabe shd say buy only if u manage to sniff out gd deals.
Hard to have any conclusion....goto source for gd deals too....mabe shd say buy only if u manage to sniff out gd deals.Risks are high at most parts of the land so your nose must be super good before you can sniff out good deals. Currently my take is to hold on first and watch the market movement! Stakes are too high for my comfort now! :o
Hard to have any conclusion....goto source for gd deals too....mabe shd say buy only if u manage to sniff out gd deals.
yes, at least that's a conclusion. if they keep confusing people and if the market moves higher, people start going into panic buying mode then, that would make things worse.
yes, at least that's a conclusion. if they keep confusing people and if the market moves higher, people start going into panic buying mode then, that would make things worse.
At the current moment, Minton is a good deal at $850psf or so. Seriously.:)
At the current moment, Minton is a good deal at $850psf or so. Seriously.:)Been to the showflat 3 times but none with a purchase... it may be one of the cheaper options around but am not convinced on many fronts. Then again different people hold different views so its more of a personal choice than the price alone! :o
devilplate
06-07-11, 17:23
At the current moment, Minton is a good deal at $850psf or so. Seriously.:)
Quantum quite high leh plus layout not efficient...2bedder oredi cost close to 900k, how much profit can we squeeze out of it?
Ground flr psf 6xxpsf for 1300sqft, 2bdr ground flr? Quantum ard 900k nia....
Just a personal opinion. Minton is slightly more costly than other smaller projects for similar number of bedrooms because it's floor area is slightly bigger although its psf is lower than other development. Then again I feel we must also project the future housing market whether mm units or spacious units would be in demand. This debate has already taken place so won't go into it. Personally I like space instead of being packed sardine in a small apartment! :p
Just a personal opinion. Minton is slightly more costly than other smaller projects for similar number of bedrooms because it's floor area is slightly bigger although its psf is lower than other development. Then again I feel we must also project the future housing market whether mm units or spacious units would be in demand. This debate has already taken place so won't go into it. Personally I like space instead of being packed sardine in a small apartment! :p
I oso like space, both for the apt and condo external landscape. Many people are snapping up 4 bedders too. So is there something in them? Are people sensing that big units might have a strong demand in the future? Or it's to live in reasonable comfort? :beats-me-man:
I oso like space, both for the apt and condo external landscape. Many people are snapping up 4 bedders too. So is there something in them? Are people sensing that big units might have a strong demand in the future? Or it's to live in reasonable comfort? :beats-me-man:For the 4 bedder buyers, I suspect its not for investment. I believe most are for own stay and there are simply too little 4 or 5 bedders condo around and even it there are, they are simply too expensive for upgraders. Therefore Minton conveniently bridge that gap in that vicinity. I also feel that Minton appeals more to upgraders and own stay rather than investment! I stand corrected on this view. :o
devilplate
06-07-11, 17:53
Just a personal opinion. Minton is slightly more costly than other smaller projects for similar number of bedrooms because it's floor area is slightly bigger although its psf is lower than other development. Then again I feel we must also project the future housing market whether mm units or spacious units would be in demand. This debate has already taken place so won't go into it. Personally I like space instead of being packed sardine in a small apartment! :p
The problem is the layout not efficient....980sqft 2bdr can even fit in a queen bed in the 2nd room....the balcony n planter box damn big
Minus balcony, planter n baywindos...probably left 700sqft....i asked for the breakdown b4, but the agt say i duno...stomp feet:p
devilplate
06-07-11, 18:04
Still got ground flr units facing lily pond? I tink ground flr is worth buying...jus pay abit more for the big patio
Jonathan0503
06-07-11, 18:21
Just a personal opinion. Minton is slightly more costly than other smaller projects for similar number of bedrooms because it's floor area is slightly bigger although its psf is lower than other development. Then again I feel we must also project the future housing market whether mm units or spacious units would be in demand. This debate has already taken place so won't go into it. Personally I like space instead of being packed sardine in a small apartment! :p
There are still buyers for mm units around 500sf. And it's for own stay and not for investment.
My colleague is one good example and he finds that the space is actually quite liveable.
Still got ground flr units facing lily pond? I tink ground flr is worth buying...jus pay abit more for the big patio
As long as there's no footpath in front of the unit. The other issue is mosquito.
There are still buyers for mm units around 500sf. And it's for own stay and not for investment.
My colleague is one good example and he finds that the space is actually quite liveable.
Problem is how much of that 500sf you can use..if give half to planter,balcony and a/c ledge what's left?
If layout is efficient then 500sf is liveable...
Problem is how much of that 500sf you can use..if give half to planter,balcony and a/c ledge what's left?
If layout is efficient then 500sf is liveable...What about mm which is 398 sf? :doh:
Jonathan0503
07-07-11, 09:09
Problem is how much of that 500sf you can use..if give half to planter,balcony and a/c ledge what's left?
If layout is efficient then 500sf is liveable...
Think about 10 - 15% of his place is occupied by planter, air-con ledge and HS
There are still buyers for mm units around 500sf. And it's for own stay and not for investment.
My colleague is one good example and he finds that the space is actually quite liveable.
He must be from HK.
He must be from HK.Yes yes... I stayed in those HK mm units before. Its amazing... :p Beds are placed on the baywindows and a make shift small table and wardrobe. Nothing else coz no more space... :doh:
devilplate
07-07-11, 12:10
Yes yes... I stayed in those HK mm units before. Its amazing... :p Beds are placed on the baywindows and a make shift small table and wardrobe. Nothing else coz no more space... :doh:
Hk average size of an apt is ard 450sqft which includes 20% common area....
I heard it from a hk tenant...and she say clift 500sqft 1bdr is so so spacious.....she really meant it....hehe
Hk average size of an apt is ard 450sqft which includes 20% common area....
I heard it from a hk tenant...and she say clift 500sqft 1bdr is so so spacious.....she really meant it....hehe
500sqft 1 bedder is liveable. It's the 300sqft that isn't.
Yes yes... I stayed in those HK mm units before. Its amazing... :p Beds are placed on the baywindows and a make shift small table and wardrobe. Nothing else coz no more space... :doh:
Zen living.. cannot accumulate :spliff:
Jonathan0503
07-07-11, 13:17
He must be from HK.
Nope, he's from China
Hk average size of an apt is ard 450sqft which includes 20% common area....
I heard it from a hk tenant...and she say clift 500sqft 1bdr is so so spacious.....she really meant it....hehe
Hey, bro, have you rented out your clift unit?
devilplate
07-07-11, 14:52
Hey, bro, have you rented out your clift unit?
Within 2wks ;)
Pasir Ris HDB flat offered at eye-popping price tag
By property_guru | Property Blog (http://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/property-blog/) – 9 hours ago
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Just $100,000 short of hitting the million dollar mark, the asking price for the 1,528 sq ft HDB executive flat …
The red-hot HDB market is showing no signs of cooling despite public housing affordability being a key issue in the recently concluded general elections, and the implementation of various cooling measures by the Singapore government since 2010.
Fresh from the Design, Build and Sell Scheme (DBSS) fiasco, where developer Sim Lian Group stirred controversy when it announced that the indicative price of its most expensive 5-room flat would cost $880,000, the Housing and Development Board (HDB) is under the spotlight again after an eye-popping ad listing was posted on local property website PropertyGuru.
The ad shows a 1,528 sq ft HDB executive flat (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/singapore-property-listing/hdb) at Block 780 Pasir Ris Street 71 with an asking price of $900,000.
Considering that it is a public housing project located in a non-prime area and with no facilities, the unit's asking price is well above the average transacted level in the area.
Caveat data shows that the average per sq ft pricing of similar properties transacted in the area for 2011 is between $400 to $500 per sq ft.
The executive flat's asking price translates to $589.01 per sq ft, which is well above the market price.
The flat faces a park and is located just next to Tampines Expressway.
Amenities nearby include Meridian Junior College.
It is not even within walking distance to Pasir Ris MRT station and White Sands mall.
Flat is overpriced
When contacted, an industry leader said the flat was overpriced.
"The asking price of $900,000 is definitely way beyond the market price. It is certainly a one-off case which, if the agent is able to get, it will be a record price for Pasir Ris," said Roza Sure Bagus, managing director of Sure Bagus (Asia) Pte Ltd.
According to Roza, she sold a flat in Pasir Ris (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/singapore-property-listing/hdb/pasir-ris) recently for $696,000, which is $96,000 above valuation.
"The $96,000 in above valuation is still okay, provided the house has a good view, high floor and good interior. Nevertheless, if they are buying at $96,000 above valuation, the buyer's taste in the décor may not be the same. They may renovate everything," said Roza.
She added that, in June, an executive flat in the area had transacted for $750,000.
"We thought it was a record price in Pasir Ris. Now, at $900,000, it is really ridiculous. We are likening the price to a private property. An executive condominium (http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/condo-directory) would not cost that much either. For a $900,000 HDB flat, it is way too high," said Roza.
However, she reckons there might still be a willing buyer.
"For a person who buys such flat, he might buy it for sentimental value. Perhaps, it has a breathtaking view which he may not be able to get elsewhere. The buyers are likely to be from the private property market who have already sold their properties or who were enbloc owners who made a huge profit. It is unlikely they will take any loan. They would buy this unit in cash, full settlement," said Roza.
Roza also believes that this is not a normal trend.
"In view of the cooling measures, this is a one-off case . This is not a normal trend. This is not a market price," said Roza.
May be seller don;t want to sell.. so dare Agent to sell it at 900K.. :tongue3:
..people can buy new EC launched there..much better value
Regulators
14-07-11, 01:02
if people want to pay $1 mil, let them pay lor, but valuers have to ignore this transaction when valuing other flats down the road.
mossyburger
14-07-11, 01:50
sorry, off-topic... wow, is her name really Roza Sure Bagus? :doh:
Regulators
14-07-11, 02:10
Roza sure bagus at what?
sorry, off-topic... wow, is her name really Roza Sure Bagus? :doh:
if people want to pay $1 mil, let them pay lor, but valuers have to ignore this transaction when valuing other flats down the road.Valuers can ignore this transaction but do you think agents will ignore? They will quote this transaction till the cows will moo their way home coz higher commission for them mah! :scared-4:
Seller just trying his luck. They probably weren't planning to move out anyway. But if they get their asking, they can then upgrade to private condo.
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-780-pasir-ris-street-71-5000692
anybody visiting this showflat?? heehee :D
Burmese teak so gilat ah?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-780-pasir-ris-street-71-5000692
anybody visiting this showflat?? heehee :D
Burmese teak so gilat ah?
Aiyoo :doh: .. looks like unfinished house..
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-780-pasir-ris-street-71-5000692
anybody visiting this showflat?? heehee :D
Burmese teak so gilat ah?They probably spent 100k on reno so asking ridiculous price to recover the reno cost plus a handsome profit... :p
They probably spent 100k on reno so asking ridiculous price to recover the reno cost plus a handsome profit... :p
It might very well work..if someone has taste in that kind of reno then they might be stupid enought to pay that amount too..
To me, that reno looks like collection of junk
They probably spent 100k on reno so asking ridiculous price to recover the reno cost plus a handsome profit... :p
i too think owner trying his luck, but who knows someone who luvs trees might pick up the tab.
It might very well work..if someone has taste in that kind of reno then they might be stupid enought to pay that amount too..
To me, that reno looks like collection of junkApparently you don't have taste for that kind of reno.. Me too! But there are crazy buyers around so the owners might just manage to sell their house pretty soon... :scared-4:
I wonder if it could be an interior designer's own flat. I ever visited one maisonette in Tampines which belonged to the ID and he had teak flooring but his walls did not have the exposed brick. So I'm wondering if this might be the "friend" or "colleague" of the other designer. Perhaps they used their spare raw materials on their own homes or experimented with different styles of design. An "average" person would not dare to do such type of reno on his own home I feel.
proud owner
14-07-11, 12:08
Apparently you don't have taste for that kind of reno.. Me too! But there are crazy buyers around so the owners might just manage to sell their house pretty soon... :scared-4:
the gate and the toilet pipings :doh: :doh: ..
at the end of the day ...those 2 items shouting loud loud :
HDB HDB !!!!
chinese saying ...
put on the dragon's robe .. no look of a prince
also ... in another tread ... we discussed on railing and balcony ..etc
this unit very unchild friendly
So what is the current record price for HDB flats?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-780-pasir-ris-street-71-5000692
anybody visiting this showflat?? heehee :D
Burmese teak so gilat ah?
Very HDB mentality, "choped" the common corridor with own plants and furniture.
Very HDB mentality, "choped" the common corridor with own plants and furniture.
haha...is it legal? Unless they paid for that space, so another ~150sqft. Feel like putting a tissue pack there & declare it's mine, good for :cheers4:.
wait a minute, the Listing Expired!! Only 2 days.
haha...is it legal? Unless they paid for that space, so another ~150sqft. Feel like putting a tissue pack there & declare it's mine, good for :cheers4:.
wait a minute, the Listing Expired!! Only 2 days.
I don't its legal, but its rampant in HDB. Most people just live and let live. People like these usually carry over the same ideas when they crossover to condos, trying to "makan" extra space, that's how conflicts start.
Err .. this has to be the most expensive resale flat on offer?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-200-toa-payoh-north-5591432
Err .. this has to be the most expensive resale flat on offer?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-200-toa-payoh-north-5591432In terms of psf?
when hyper inflation kicks in, let's see prices hit through the roof
Err .. this has to be the most expensive resale flat on offer?
http://www.propertyguru.com.sg/listing/hdb-for-sale-200-toa-payoh-north-5591432
Wah!! Photo of lift also take.. think this unit got "pte lift" leh.. no wonder owner asking for high price.. :D
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