View Full Version : OUR MINISTERS' PAY COMPARED TO UNITED STATES MINISTERS
sure, during NTU, take MRT to BoonLay and take bus (199?) to NTU. During working life, take MRT to BoonLay and take company bus to workplace.
Everyday I might add :) Do I complain? No. Just need to work harder, work smarter to escape the life of peons.
Anymore you want to know about me?
During NTU? Now or a few years back?
Have u try taking MRT today or recently?
MRT are packed like shit and Singaporeans will feel like minority at time as the trains are often full with FT (pinoy,ah neh, ah tiong, Burmese, Indonesians just to name a few). Sometime really tot where are Singaporeans?
:2cents:
devilplate
22-03-11, 15:19
Hey toking abt reserves.... Usa in trillions debt rite.... Tats y obama cannot openly command big paychecks? Unemployment 9+%....
Imagine trillion debts.... U kids r born to become slave to the country..... Scary!!!
I tink ang mor countries more den 7% gst? Income tax higher?? N y they r in debts?
that exposes the differences in our psyche. you are merely an investor who's happy to play a bystander's role as long as your investment is safe.
to the rest of us here, we are rooted, some by choice while some by circumstances, to this country and believe that our stakes are higher comparatively.
anything goes wrong, you pack up and lament on losses incurred on your investment. for us, anything goes wrong, we suffer more than in mere financial terms
How can you say my stakes are lower? Probably the value of 1 (if fully-paid) condo is worth more than accumulated gross salary earned by the average working joe for his entire life.
You don't know the higher you are, the harder you fall. Now I am enjoying life, if my investments failed, I will go back to a mundane existence. That would be a terrible fate for me.
No, my stakes in Singapore being a prosperous country are much higher than you imagine.
devilplate
22-03-11, 15:23
During NTU? Now or a few years back?
Have u try taking MRT today or recently?
MRT are packed like shit and Singaporeans will feel like minority at time as the trains are often full with FT (pinoy,ah neh, ah tiong, Burmese, Indonesians just to name a few). Sometime really tot where has Simgdpirean gone to?
:2cents:
Bo pian leh... Locals shun construction n service line jobs.... New mrt lines take abt 10yrs to build but we nid ppl urgently to fill in those jobs...
During NTU? Now or a few years back?
Have u try taking MRT today or recently?
MRT are packed like shit and Singaporeans will feel like minority at time as the trains are often full with FT (pinoy,ah neh, ah tiong, Burmese, Indonesians just to name a few). Sometime really tot where are Singaporeans?
:2cents:
The laws of physics hasn't changed I hope. The maximum number of people in a carriage remains the same. Unless MRT carriages gets bigger or people get skinnier.
err...How do you know they are FTs?
How can you say my stakes are lower? Probably the value of 1 (if fully-paid) condo is worth more than accumulated gross salary earned by the average working joe for his entire life.
You don't know the higher you are, the harder you fall. Now I am enjoying life, if my investments failed, I will go back to a mundane existence. That would be a terrible fate for me.
No, my stakes in Singapore being a prosperous country are much higher than you imagine.
and you are assuming the rest of us here don't have private properties???:doh:
The laws of physics hasn't changed I hope. The maximum number of people in a carriage remains the same. Unless MRT carriages gets bigger or people get skinnier.
err...How do you know they are FTs?
can't see their skin color and hear them speak?
your arguments are getting so stupid to the point that i'm almost tempted to verbally abuse you but....sigh.....
quoting forrest gump: stupid is as stupid does
devilplate
22-03-11, 15:37
Based on my own exp, mrt oredi pack like shyt when i m taking mrt daily during peak hrs from simei to town last time lor.... We cant say its getting more packed la but now goto wait for 2nd or 3rd train inorder to board lor
The laws of physics hasn't changed I hope. The maximum number of people in a carriage remains the same. Unless MRT carriages gets bigger or people get skinnier.
err...How do you know they are FTs?
Law of physics haven't changed but the way we live changes.
Sometime, I really tot those transportation sastifaction surveys done by the garment body are doctored.
Apparently, most Foreign talents do not own private transports. Hence, most of them have to turn to public transport to commute to work. Once you add this nos in... what do you think it will happened?
In my opinion, the following agencies either screw up or failed to work collectively...
ICA control the FT numbers
HDB/MND responsible for housing based on FT numbers + new citizen numbers from ICA data.
LTA should plan the transport network based on HDB/MND housing planning
Dun't they have to work collectively meh?
As for FT,
- Pinoy looks easy to tell
- Ah-neh ften work as IT/Accounting and u can tell by the way they dressed. Singapore ah-neh don't dressed that way.
- Ah tiong lagi easy, their clothing are tell tale sign.
- Indo Chinese abit difficult to tell. But once they talk, I know.
- Burmese like to read on trains and you can tell by the book they read.
Also, I've yet to list those Malaysians which can be even more in numbers but often hard to tell from the outlook and they blend in well.
Based on my own exp, mrt oredi pack like shyt when i m taking mrt daily during peak hrs from simei to town last time lor.... We cant say its getting more packed la but now goto wait for 2nd or 3rd train inorder to board lor
Thats what I am trying to tell eng81157, cannot squeeze more people into a train, so if more people, peak period will be longer.
devilplate
22-03-11, 15:46
Govt is doing smthing abt it now.... Increase levy n increase productivity
Based on my own exp, mrt oredi pack like shyt when i m taking mrt daily during peak hrs from simei to town last time lor.... We cant say its getting more packed la but now goto wait for 2nd or 3rd train inorder to board lor
True wor.
But hor, if you happened to stand in close proximity with a nice figure lady, shiok manz...
:spliff:
Allthepies
22-03-11, 15:51
in good times, people will start to compare, how come A pay higher than B pay... and how come this cannot that cannot, why this cannot be better, that cannot be better and blah blah blah blah...
during bad time, people will keep quiet and work hard and hope he wont be fired and earned enough to feed his family....
now we are in a period of good times :D
Reserve is to keep for rainy day. didnt u receive the budget ang pow?
What rainy day you talking about since you say how wonderful PAP government is ??
Like taking reserves to pay Temasek and GIC poor investments in 2009 ??
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=2273874
http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2009/yax-986.htm
Nathan fluffs his reserves explanation
and you are assuming the rest of us here don't have private properties???:doh:
So you are saying you are not an average working joe. Can own private properties. Good for you. So your stakes in Singapore higher lor than average working joe.
Allthepies
22-03-11, 16:00
now we are in a period of good times :D
Govt is doing smthing abt it now.... Increase levy n increase productivity
Do you think we need to spend millions to puppies to offer a solution that even street folks like us can suggest?
Also, if you watch the news, the new ah-neh puppy candidate looks abit cocky. Also, from today news report about him breaking his promise to his wife for not entering politics. To rule a nation/county, one must learn how to manage his family first. To manage a family, one must learn how to manage oneself before all else.
If a man can break his promise to his wife (be it for any GREAT reasons), what can you expect from him to be your MP/Minister?
Puppy scored an own-goal in round one.
:2cents:
Regulators
22-03-11, 16:04
So you are telling us that to have opposition members in parliament would erode away your investments in Singapore? Again what kind of butt logic is this? You mean to say there are no scholars, lawyers, accountants and doctors in the opposition who are able to carry on with the work of the current government? Singapore will not collapse so easily, don't be a simpleton
So you are saying you are not an average working joe. Can own private properties. Good for you. So your stakes in Singapore higher lor than average working joe.
... GIC poor investments in 2009 ??
can u explain why GIC's investment in Citi was poor ?
Regulators
22-03-11, 16:11
So you are telling us that to have opposition members in parliament would erode away your investments in Singapore? Again what kind of butt logic is this? You mean to say there are no scholars, lawyers, accountants and doctors in the opposition who are able to carry on with the work of the current government? Singapore will not collapse so easily, don't be a simpleton
So you are saying you are not an average working joe. Can own private properties. Good for you. So your stakes in Singapore higher lor than average working joe.
after so many posts, nobody has yet to suggest what they think is a fair salary for ministers and MPs?:doh: Know only how to say "too high, not worth it"?
Regulators
22-03-11, 16:24
Read this http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My+Money/Story/A1Story20090301-125407.html
can u explain why GIC's investment in Citi was poor ?
Regulators
22-03-11, 16:26
One third of president obama's public salary is about right
after so many posts, nobody has yet to suggest what they think is a fair salary for ministers and MPs?:doh: Know only how to say "too high, not worth it"?
I think it take foreign eyes to appreciate the government.
But somebody will say don't compare to 3rd world countries around us, compare with developed countries like US, UK, Japan etc.
Why not though. When the top guy writes a book "third world to first" you should follow his example , no?
Read this http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My+Money/Story/A1Story20090301-125407.html
Please explain using your own language. You and (especially) wenqing.
Let every one see how smart you are please.
.........
If a man can break his promise to his wife (be it for any GREAT reasons), what can you expect from him to be your MP/Minister?
Puppy scored an own-goal in round one.
:2cents:
Another intepretation: "Country before self."
Another scenario:
How many of us are guilty of promising our wives/girlfriends we will be back for dinner, yet when work calls, we have to stay back, finish our work. We are putting company/work before our wives right?
Or all of a sudden, there is reservist call up, how many us have to break our promise to our dates and go to camp. Duty calls.
Singapore calls for him, and he responds, even at great personal cost of breaking his promise. Kudos to him.
So you are telling us that to have opposition members in parliament would erode away your investments in Singapore? Again what kind of butt logic is this? You mean to say there are no scholars, lawyers, accountants and doctors in the opposition who are able to carry on with the work of the current government? Singapore will not collapse so easily, don't be a simpleton
This I have to agree with. There are some really over simplified and worse completely untestable statements made...... until there is change you cannot honestly promise these things will happen for sure....... but that after all is the job of a politician yes?
MBT gone won't lead to HDB in tampines = $0. I will give option to purchase at half price if he loses his seat.... I wonder how many would dare take me up, I am guessing none, because no one deep down really believes it.
As much as I generally like the ruling party, I get quite embarrassed by the arguments they can put forward. Only a total child should swallow it at surface value.
The laws of physics hasn't changed I hope. The maximum number of people in a carriage remains the same. Unless MRT carriages gets bigger or people get skinnier.
err...How do you know they are FTs?
friend.. a few ways to tell...the way they dress, the way they talk, the way they look, the way they sound(accent) and they way they behave on train somethimes...:D and lastly the smell...:D
One third of president obama's public salary is about right
Good. That's a start. Does everyone agrees on the figure? Now any reason why you base on 1/3 of POTUS salary? Or should it be like average of top 10 prime ministers' salaries around the world?
Can flesh out the skeleton?
I think if a carriage can squeeze 40 people a few years back for maximum "squeeziness", I dont think it can squeeze 45 people now.
If more people take the train, it only means peak period is longer, thats all, the maximum passengers a train can carry is still fixed a few years back and today.
another point the frequency of the train too...but that is already close to the max already based on current MRT infrastructure...indicating the people it carries per trip is alot of more compared to last time even the frequency of train increases in a certain time frame...:)
devilplate
22-03-11, 16:52
One third of president obama's public salary is about right
actually wat obama had done so far?
USA in trillions debt wor....shd their minister pay be negative as well...hehe
As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations
mabe using obama is a bad example....:beats-me-man:
u have a big rod right? try using it for downpayment lor.....since yr big rod is DOWN there......
funny leh big ROD or not what does it got to do with the S$83,333/person and/or downpayment? u think BIG ROD is gold plated or made of gold(gold is expensive now) :D
devilplate
22-03-11, 16:57
funny leh big ROD or not what does it got to do with the S$83,333/person and/or downpayment? u think BIG ROD is gold plated or made of gold(gold is expensive now) :D
not cute leh:tongue3: :D
Another intepretation: "Country before self."
Another scenario:
How many of us are guilty of promising our wives/girlfriends we will be back for dinner, yet when work calls, we have to stay back, finish our work. We are putting company/work before our wives right?
Or all of a sudden, there is reservist call up, how many us have to break our promise to our dates and go to camp. Duty calls.
Singapore calls for him, and he responds, even at great personal cost of breaking his promise. Kudos to him.
any body know what is Kin ni nah xiao? (famous hokkien phrase meaning ah pu neh neh account):D :D
any body know what is Kin ni nah xiao? (famous hokkien phrase meaning ah pu neh neh account):D :D
sorry, don't quite get you.
devilplate
22-03-11, 17:03
friend.. a few ways to tell...the way they dress, the way they talk, the way they look, the way they sound(accent) and they way they behave on train somethimes...:D and lastly the smell...:D
stereotyping?:doh: :doh:
or is tat all those self proclaimed 'tua ki' r?
actually wat obama had done so far?
USA in trillions debt wor....shd their minister pay be negative as well...hehe
As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations
mabe using obama is a bad example....:beats-me-man:
why they must always use us as comparison? 1st said spore is so small and yet use us the big brother for comparison. no logic at all.
anyway never like obama, he is arrogant. remember when spore is hosting the asean event, becos he need to cut short his trip he rather shorten his trip in spore and not to shorten his japan trip :mad: despite spore being the hosting country!!! knn
Nathan fluffs his reserves explanation
I am on you guys' side but to be fair to our current figurehead; he aren't gonna be the beneficial receiver of the pay raise because he already said he will not be seeking a new term and that his and his wife's photos will be removed from all gahmen offices by August. So its the next incoming fellow who will tan tio. Considering the calibre of the 3 potential candidates, I can only say they don't really need this 4.2mil PA package anyway (except for one of them ;))
actually wat obama had done so far?
USA in trillions debt wor....shd their minister pay be negative as well...hehe
As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations
mabe using obama is a bad example....:beats-me-man:
Singapore also has public debt and is top 10 in the world too.
So do Singapore leaders still deserve being highest paid in the world by 6 times ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt
Regulators
22-03-11, 18:00
Get this figurehead to surrender 80% of his unjust earnings in the last term and current term and donate the money to charity and we will respect him after that.
I am on you guys' side but to be fair to our current figurehead; he aren't gonna be the beneficial receiver of the pay raise because he already said he will not be seeking a new term and that his and his wife's photos will be removed from all gahmen offices by August. So its the next incoming fellow who will tan tio. Considering the calibre of the 3 potential candidates, I can only say they don't really need this 4.2mil PA package anyway (except for one of them ;))
devilplate
22-03-11, 18:02
Singapore also has public debt and is top 10 in the world too.
So do Singapore leaders still deserve being highest paid in the world by 6 times ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt
u r right...goto pluck national reserves instead....
i cant find any official link wor....anyone care to post any link with regards to every country reserves?
devilplate
22-03-11, 18:17
Singapore also has public debt and is top 10 in the world too.
So do Singapore leaders still deserve being highest paid in the world by 6 times ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt
btw, there is a huge difference between public debt and outstanding public debt.....
The United States public debt is a frequently reported measure of the obligations of the United States federal government (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Federal_government_of_the_United_States) and is presented by the United States Treasury (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/United_States_Treasury) in two components and one total:
Debt Held by the Public , representing all federal[1] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-DheldbyPub-0) securities held by institutions or individuals outside the United States Government;
Intragovernmental Holdings, representing U.S. Treasury securities held in accounts which are administered by the United States Government, such as the OASI Trust fund (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund) administered by the Social Security Administration; and
Total Public Debt Outstanding, which is the sum of the above components.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations.[citation needed (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
devilplate
22-03-11, 18:36
http://www.cpf.gov.sg/imsavvy/infohub_article.asp?readid={687381751-5550-6145440935}
some explanation.....but i still abit blur la...haha....cpf being the largest debtor wor...
so Sg got surplus net public debt...
wah lau i cannot take it liao , argue till cow come home..... come on, unhappy vote against. Unhappy some more go speakers corner tell other pple u unhappy n tell them to vote.
guanho some more then go form party , put $15,000 and come out n ran on your mandate. The Truth if u dont already understand is your BOSS DETERMINES his pay, not U. Dont believe u go speak to your boss, fuk him for taking millions while u paid peanuts.
each of us got 1 vote, buay song just vote lah. Talk till cow come home got any changes in your life meh. 2molo still take same MRT/taxi/Bus to work right. I suggest stop grumping lah.
property agent sell house also make $1m a year, so what if pple make millions. pple sell shoes also become multimillionaire, sell thai food also 2-3 year make 80m, so more sell curry puff, bread also listed..... talk so much about other's pay your income will increase meh......
got heart put $15,000 do something about in. "seng ren seng ming" no need buay song.
devilplate
22-03-11, 19:29
....................
Regulators
22-03-11, 19:42
Election is coming and it is apt to discuss this topic now. After election, not much point already. Opposition already have this topic on the agenda so no worries. The purpose of this discussion is to open the eyes of others. Some ignorant people here don't even know their tax dollars syphoned off to pay ridiculous salaries to mps and the prata man so it is right to bring it up to them
wah lau i cannot take it liao , argue till cow come home..... come on, unhappy vote against. Unhappy some more go speakers corner tell other pple u unhappy n tell them to vote.
guanho some more then go form party , put $15,000 and come out n ran on your mandate. The Truth if u dont already understand is your BOSS DETERMINES his pay, not U. Dont believe u go speak to your boss, fuk him for taking millions while u paid peanuts.
each of us got 1 vote, buay song just vote lah. Talk till cow come home got any changes in your life meh. 2molo still take same MRT/taxi/Bus to work right. I suggest stop grumping lah.
property agent sell house also make $1m a year, so what if pple make millions. pple sell shoes also become multimillionaire, sell thai food also 2-3 year make 80m, so more sell curry puff, bread also listed..... talk so much about other's pay your income will increase meh......
got heart put $15,000 do something about in. "seng ren seng ming" no need buay song.
devilplate
22-03-11, 20:02
Election is coming and it is apt to discuss this topic now. After election, not much point already. Opposition already have this topic on the agenda so no worries. The purpose of this discussion is to open the eyes of others. Some ignorant people here don't even know their tax dollars syphoned off to pay ridiculous salaries to mps and the prata man so it is right to bring it up to them
y they announce salary increase b4 GE hor....
i aso amazed by their high salary la....at the same time....i aso worried about the quality of opposition wor...
u guys just wish to vote more opposition in? or u wana see opposition rules in future although i noe its not possible in near future....
Allthepies
22-03-11, 20:14
One third of president obama's public salary is about right
how about 1miilion time of obama's public salary since the US caused the economic crisis :D which caused the US to go into recession.....
So far, many against high salaries.
Nobody has proposed what is ideal/fair salaries?
Using what methodologies and benchmarks.
in the last election, the opposition has already proposed another set of benchmark. but since u are not a sporean i dont blame u for not knowing.
Allthepies
22-03-11, 20:20
actually since some of us here think very highly of obama or US president and the way he run the country, then it is sensible to peg the performance or pay of PM/ministers directly to Singapaore's GDP growth rate against US GDP growth rate?
actually since some of us here think very highly of obama or US president and the way he run the country, then it is sensible to peg the performance or pay of PM/ministers directly to Singapaore's GDP growth rate against US GDP growth rate?
why growth rate?
why not peg to size of economy? that would be helluva lot more proportionate
devilplate
22-03-11, 20:46
why growth rate?
why not peg to size of economy? that would be helluva lot more proportionate
so how much they worth?
devilplate
22-03-11, 20:48
actually since some of us here think very highly of obama or US president and the way he run the country, then it is sensible to peg the performance or pay of PM/ministers directly to Singapaore's GDP growth rate against US GDP growth rate?
many ppl sure unhappy la...president's pay increased 20%++ but average joe pay only increase 3-5%:hell-hath-no-fury:
devilplate
22-03-11, 20:52
they suffered pay cut in 2008 mah....so now take opportunity to Up Up!!:hell-hath-no-fury:
current MP's allowance shd b 200k+ hor...
Due to the economic downturn, the salaries of administrative officers (the highest earners (http://www.salary.sg/2007/high-earners-in-civil-service/) in the civil service), political, judicial and statutory appointment holders will not be adjusted upwards as planned. Instead, they will all receive a pay cut of 11% to 19%.
These are the new salaries:
President $3.14m (down 19%)
Prime Minister $3.04m (down 19%)
Ministerial Grade MR4 $1.57m (down 18%)
Entry Superscale Grade SR9 $353,000 (down 12%)
Allowance for Members of Parliament $190,000 (down 16%). Note that most MPs hold a full-time job and some are also directors in companies.
so how much they worth?
US economy is worth over USD14 trillion, president's pay is USD400k
Spore economy is S$235 billion.... u do the maths :)
devilplate
22-03-11, 20:58
US economy is worth over USD14 trillion, president's pay is USD400k
Spore economy is S$235 billion.... u do the maths :)
but hor US in trillions debt wor....their pay shd be negative instead?
dun use USA la...use rich China better....:hell-hath-no-fury: :D
but hor US in trillions debt wor....their pay shd be negative instead?
dun use USA la...use rich China better....:hell-hath-no-fury: :D
if u peg to china, then the Spore President or PM's salary will be even lower.
i say why not :)
empty vessel alot of noise lah. wanna vote then vote lah. At election i will park my car at road side and listen to opposition talk. If PAP fine me 1 parking fine i will vote against. Imatured? You think that 1 pathetic vote is going to matter? u win 1 small victory but still lose the battle.
All this talk abt pay is bo liao. Even if everyone feel its very high, then f**king vote against lah. Discuss so much liao what is the verdict? Change is thru action one, not thru posting and complaining.
Action coke vs Taking Coke
open eyes and see, $3m pay for a CEO of a country alot meh. how many bankers take home more than that. Open Thai fast food 3 years make $80m liao. Sell shoes , 35 years old can sell 20% for $20m. Come on dont be mountain turtle!! look up only see small hole. The top business owners in Singapore are all billionaires, not millionaire.
W****** if u feel u up to the minister job, go apply for it. The minister can talk nonsense, u complain n post until your finger break, 2molo he still take home his million dollar pay. Just to let u know , their job is not to suck up to u n make u happy. Ur opinion doesnt matter k. U are not LKW. Period.
Lets get back to discuss on Property.
Focus on improve your own and family life is more important
if wanna talk politics, talk about things that can improve pple's life. Talk about things that are constructive. The reports come here read liao can help u put on national newpaper, better right.
For 1 , i like to see mark improvement in the public transports and roads. Super expand all highways 2 more lanes each side. Dont say cannot be done. Just enbloc all those building along the high way!
Mrt all build underground! minimise all noise above ground. Lengthen all MRT stations by 10 cabins and increase the length of each train.
Continue build ERP on heavy highways. Free PArking on all public car parks, fire all the parking attendents and donate their $$$ to the old n poor folks, improve their lives. These pple really need help.
Transport minister if u see this , start doing something.
Condo Kaiser
22-03-11, 22:16
if wanna talk politics, talk about things that can improve pple's life. Talk about things that are constructive. The reports come here read liao can help u put on national newpaper, better right.
For 1 , i like to see mark improvement in the public transports and roads. Super expand all highways 2 more lanes each side. Dont say cannot be done. Just enbloc all those building along the high way!
Mrt all build underground! minimise all noise above ground. Lengthen all MRT stations by 10 cabins and increase the length of each train.
Continue build ERP on heavy highways. Free PArking on all public car parks, fire all the parking attendents and donate their $$$ to the old n poor folks, improve their lives. These pple really need help.
Transport minister if u see this , start doing something.
I like your ideas Daytona... :D
Wish they will come true but think hard la..
Regulators
22-03-11, 22:34
Was it obama's fault for us to run into this humongous debt? US is in this shit which is why it takes someone like him to clean up the mess
actually wat obama had done so far?
USA in trillions debt wor....shd their minister pay be negative as well...hehe
As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations
mabe using obama is a bad example....:beats-me-man:
Regulators
22-03-11, 22:54
You may not be interested about how your taxes are being used to pay ministers salaries but a whole multitude of singaporeans and many in this forum are interested. Are you telling us that cutting down on ministerial salaries and bonuses to channel the surplus funds for better social causes is not constructive? people do not have to join politics to discuss political issues so don't be so shallow. You are one of those who has resigned to your fate, but there are many who still believe that there is strength in unity. I still stand by my belief that more opposition should be fielded into parliament for the better good of singapore. I suppose a tiny mind like yours probably wouldn't give a shit so long as you earn your dollars and take care of your own stomach.
if wanna talk politics, talk about things that can improve pple's life. Talk about things that are constructive. The reports come here read liao can help u put on national newpaper, better right.
For 1 , i like to see mark improvement in the public transports and roads. Super expand all highways 2 more lanes each side. Dont say cannot be done. Just enbloc all those building along the high way!
Mrt all build underground! minimise all noise above ground. Lengthen all MRT stations by 10 cabins and increase the length of each train.
Continue build ERP on heavy highways. Free PArking on all public car parks, fire all the parking attendents and donate their $$$ to the old n poor folks, improve their lives. These pple really need help.
Transport minister if u see this , start doing something.
You may not be interested about how your taxes are being used to pay ministers salaries but a whole multitude of singaporeans and many in this forum are interested. Are you telling us that cutting down on ministerial salaries and bonuses to channel the surplus funds for better social causes is not constructive? people do not have to join politics to discuss political issues so don't be so shallow. You are one of those who has resigned to your fate, but there are many who still believe that there is strength in unity. I still stand by my belief that more opposition should be fielded into parliament for the better good of singapore. I suppose a tiny mind like yours probably wouldn't give a shit so long as you earn your dollars and take care of your own stomach.
i only respect pple who take action. Not interested in pple whom complain. Period. Unity, who u kidding! Those pple here dont even have balls to apply for a permit to talk at speakers corner. Opposition got action, i respect. Mr Low , i respect. He become opposition through action.
I apologise for my tiny mind. But i love my country. I earn my dollar cos i love my family. I support PAP cos my children will not be maids. I support Mr Low cos he champions for the underprivileged.
Lastly i support u cos u are impressive.
empty vessel alot of noise lah. wanna vote then vote lah. At election i will park my car at road side and listen to opposition talk. If PAP fine me 1 parking fine i will vote against. Imatured? You think that 1 pathetic vote is going to matter? u win 1 small victory but still lose the battle.
All this talk abt pay is bo liao. Even if everyone feel its very high, then f**king vote against lah. Discuss so much liao what is the verdict? Change is thru action one, not thru posting and complaining.
Action coke vs Taking Coke
open eyes and see, $3m pay for a CEO of a country alot meh. how many bankers take home more than that. Open Thai fast food 3 years make $80m liao. Sell shoes , 35 years old can sell 20% for $20m. Come on dont be mountain turtle!! look up only see small hole. The top business owners in Singapore are all billionaires, not millionaire.
W****** if u feel u up to the minister job, go apply for it. The minister can talk nonsense, u complain n post until your finger break, 2molo he still take home his million dollar pay. Just to let u know , their job is not to suck up to u n make u happy. Ur opinion doesnt matter k. U are not LKW. Period.
Lets get back to discuss on Property.
Focus on improve your own and family life is more important
this one single thread happens to be about ministerial pay, no one is forcing anyone to read or participate in this thread discussion.
does the mention of ministerial salaries embarrass u so much that u need to keep others from talking about it? :)
this one single thread happens to be about ministerial pay, no one is forcing anyone to read or participate in this thread discussion.
does the mention of ministerial salaries embarrass u so much that u need to keep others from talking about it? :)
actually i m jealous if u must know :)
many ppl sure unhappy la...president's pay increased 20%++ but average joe pay only increase 3-5%:hell-hath-no-fury:
i have a bad feelings that GST is going to increase very soon(3 to 5 to 7 to ??) to fund it as in the past...si meh jialat...:doh:
devilplate
23-03-11, 00:28
Was it obama's fault for us to run into this humongous debt? US is in this shit which is why it takes someone like him to clean up the mess
not sure whether he is clearing up the shyt or adding more.....:beats-me-man:
http://www.usdebtclock.org/
http://www.babylontoday.com/national_debt_clock.htm
devilplate
23-03-11, 00:31
i have a bad feelings that GST is going to increase very soon(3 to 5 to 7 to ??) to fund it as in the past...si meh jialat...:doh:
mabe increase in coming oct...:scared-1:
looks like Sg still got room to up tax rate:scared-3:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
i have a bad feelings that GST is going to increase very soon(3 to 5 to 7 to ??) to fund it as in the past...si meh jialat...:doh:
The whole world is saying it will come! sibei jialat lah.
The whole world is saying it will come! sibei jialat lah.
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=3089849&page=2
Transport Minister Raymond Lim: If GST is raise to 8.5%, Public Transport will be Free. Any Takers??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRfd_IefiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsnX5QJ90UA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BygOYrP722Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxW6Bfr0eCE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcyZhJ4USrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgH3wbYH4I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao-DGAw1Q2o&feature=related
if wanna talk politics, talk about things that can improve pple's life. Talk about things that are constructive. The reports come here read liao can help u put on national newpaper, better right.
For 1 , i like to see mark improvement in the public transports and roads. Super expand all highways 2 more lanes each side. Dont say cannot be done. Just enbloc all those building along the high way!
Mrt all build underground! minimise all noise above ground. Lengthen all MRT stations by 10 cabins and increase the length of each train.
Continue build ERP on heavy highways. Free PArking on all public car parks, fire all the parking attendents and donate their $$$ to the old n poor folks, improve their lives. These pple really need help.
Transport minister if u see this , start doing something.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Singapore
Worker's Party take on general issues.
Hope after reading, you can understand Opposition better.
Maybe not all agreeable to you but at least nobody can say Opposition have no policies and stand on issues.
Hope also you can find PAP's stand on various issues.
devilplate
23-03-11, 01:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workers%27_Party_of_Singapore
Worker's Party take on general issues.
Hope after reading, you can understand Opposition better.
Maybe not all agreeable to you but at least nobody can say Opposition have no policies and stand on issues.
Hope also you can find PAP's stand on various issues.
i tink daytona refering to ppl like u.....not opposition....
he urge u to tok more stuff tat can improve our daily lives
i tink daytona refering to ppl like u.....not opposition....
he urge u to tok more stuff tat can improve our daily lives
If everyone that says good things about Opposition must go and stand as candidate, then it will be a messy place right ??
Don't like Daytona's suggestion.
How about all the PAP likers join PAP as candidates too instead of trumpeting their liking here ??
Many roles are available in an election be it voters, agents, logistics provider, donors , candidates, campaigner etc.
PAP have it so does Opposition.
Not everyone need to be candidate.
devilplate
23-03-11, 01:58
If everyone that says good things about Opposition must go and stand as candidate, then it will be a messy place right ??
Don't like Daytona's suggestion.
How about all the PAP likers join PAP as candidates too instead of trumpeting their liking here ??
Many roles are available in an election be it voters, agents, logistics provider, donors , candidates, campaigner etc.
PAP have it so does Opposition.
Not everyone need to be candidate.
most of ur post is more like finding fault with PAP wor....
mabe u can post more juicy stuff about opposition members?
can post under coffeeshop....tks:cool:
Condo Kaiser
23-03-11, 02:57
No matter who is the govt, I just hope GST don't go up..
:scared-3: :scared-3:
actually wat obama had done so far?
USA in trillions debt wor....shd their minister pay be negative as well...hehe
As of February 28, 2011, the Total Public Debt Outstanding of the United States of America was $14.19 trillion and was 96.8% of calendar year 2010's annual gross domestic product (GDP) (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/GDP) of $14.66 trillion.[2] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasDebt-1)[3] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-TreasPenny-2)[4] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-BEAGDP-3) Using 2010 figures, the total debt (96.3% of GDP) ranked 12th highest against other nations
mabe using obama is a bad example....:beats-me-man:
technically speaking, obama isn't the trigger cause of the massive deficit. he inherited a hole of crap from the gun sligging wham bang bush and had to inject liquidity into the system when it dried up during the 2008 crash. it was not like he had other options available then
i have a bad feelings that GST is going to increase very soon(3 to 5 to 7 to ??) to fund it as in the past...si meh jialat...:doh:
the target had been set at 10% since couple of years ago, comparable to what's in the western countries.
if GST goes up, inflation up? if inflation up, in general property prices up?
most of ur post is more like finding fault with PAP wor....
mabe u can post more juicy stuff about opposition members?
can post under coffeeshop....tks:cool:
You do not need Internet to 'expose juicy stuff' on Opposition like exposing PAP.
Besides, whatever I posted about PAP is public news from MSM and are facts. If you think it reflects badly about PAP, I also cannot help it.
Maybe you can tell MSM to stop carrying news about PAP or is it simply the candidates are not good enough this time round.
MSM like ST and CNA will do that for Singaporeans provided you believe in MSM. MSM got very long and good track record in doing that.
No matter who is the govt, I just hope GST don't go up..
:scared-3: :scared-3:
It will go up. Unavoidable but PAP's reasons are not convincing.
After elections in 2006, GST went up from 3% to 7% in 2007.
The same might happen after elections 2011.
Market talk had been rife about this but government did not come out and come clean about it so it is very likely it would happen.
Last time, government use reason like helping the poor so GST increase but nobody was convinced.
This time round, not sure what reason is good.
Everything you touch and spend is more GST.
if GST goes up, inflation up? if inflation up, in general property prices up?
If you need to resort to record inflation like 6% now to increase property prices, then something is wrong with the market.
Besides, whatever you earn from property will be eroded by inflation.
most of ur post is more like finding fault with PAP wor....
mabe u can post more juicy stuff about opposition members?
can post under coffeeshop....tks:cool:
ST and CNA will do that for you, don't need Internet.
The whole world is saying it will come! sibei jialat lah.
spore is going towards high GST low personal tax route. so GST will definitely be in range of 10%~15%. but it will implement it gradually.
spore is going towards high GST low personal tax route. so GST will definitely be in range of 10%~15%. but it will implement it gradually.
Gradual or not, the need and usefulness for GST remains debatable.
HK wanted GST too but HK people protested and government backed down.
HK is still doing fine without GST and budget remain healthy.
This year HK government give angpow to HK people is more than Singapore government give to Singaporeans and HK government does not need elections to do that.
http://ax3battery.com/2011/03/01/hong-kong-government-is-giving-away-6000-to-every-adult/
Hong Kong government realise they do not need GST at all for additional government revenue.
After increasing GST to 7%, Singapore government hit record Budget surplus of $6 billion. How much GST is really needed ??
http://www.temasekreview.com/2011/02/17/0-gst-is-unsustainable/
devilplate
23-03-11, 09:36
You do not need Internet to 'expose juicy stuff' on Opposition like exposing PAP.
Besides, whatever I posted about PAP is public news from MSM and are facts. If you think it reflects badly about PAP, I also cannot help it.
Maybe you can tell MSM to stop carrying news about PAP or is it simply the candidates are not good enough this time round.
MSM like ST and CNA will do that for Singaporeans provided you believe in MSM. MSM got very long and good track record in doing that.
Like u said, st cna will do tat for u... U dun nid internet
Like u said, st cna will do tat for u... U dun nid internet
Then why you ask ??
Besides I am being sarcastic at the one-sided pro -government media.
You should know by now Singapore media is ranked closely to media in North Korea and dictatorship African nations in world rankings.
proud owner
23-03-11, 09:45
if oppositions rule ... and dont perform ... then kick them out at the next election
no point worrying if they are good or not ..until proven ...right ?
just have to take that chance and give them the opportunity to prove ..
if dont perform ..then they are out simple as that
singaporean are too complacent ... want good life ..complain here and there ... BUT not willing to take risk to find out if there are better things out there ..
videos that talked about "pay" !
2007 WP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIJzks6ByRs
2010 NSP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLQd14y8mTs
devilplate
23-03-11, 10:01
Then why you ask ??
Besides I am being sarcastic at the one-sided pro -government media.
You should know by now Singapore media is ranked closely to media in North Korea and dictatorship African nations in world rankings.
I m merely using back ur own reasonig on ur actions.... U like to slap ur own face
Btw, i dun agree on burden lies on reader/buyer.....Den y we nid cea?
devilplate
23-03-11, 10:04
if oppositions rule ... and dont perform ... then kick them out at the next election
no point worrying if they are good or not ..until proven ...right ?
just have to take that chance and give them the opportunity to prove ..
if dont perform ..then they are out simple as that
singaporean are too complacent ... want good life ..complain here and there ... BUT not willing to take risk to find out if there are better things out there ..
Who r the ones who r complaining in this forum ?
if oppositions rule ... and dont perform ... then kick them out at the next election
no point worrying if they are good or not ..until proven ...right ?
just have to take that chance and give them the opportunity to prove ..
if dont perform ..then they are out simple as that
singaporean are too complacent ... want good life ..complain here and there ... BUT not willing to take risk to find out if there are better things out there ..
if u know very well that a property is not worth buying but analyst/agent keep saying that the value will sure increase 50% in 5 years time. Will u buy?? if the property value drop 20% after 5 years, jus sell lor. is tat the risk u going to take?
Another intepretation: "Country before self."
Another scenario:
How many of us are guilty of promising our wives/girlfriends we will be back for dinner, yet when work calls, we have to stay back, finish our work. We are putting company/work before our wives right?
Or all of a sudden, there is reservist call up, how many us have to break our promise to our dates and go to camp. Duty calls.
Singapore calls for him, and he responds, even at great personal cost of breaking his promise. Kudos to him.
Country before self? Sure or not? I've some reserve for those new candidates wor.
Was told that a MP ever brushing off opposition suggestion of giving token sum to volunteers as it's more like an insult than rewarding. Applying the same approach, dun't you think it's an insult to garment if we need to pay high $$$ just to attract talents to serve nation and at the same time claiming Singapore calling?
This is like "I'm answering to Singapore calling becos I can contribute my talents to her needs. But hor, please show me the $$$ before I agree to join her." KNN
A rubber balloon is just merely a rubber if is not inflated with pressure.
Going with the same token, if a garment (rubber balloon) is not tested with opposition views (pressure), dun't you think that is risky?
One garment leader ever suggest that garment agencies folks should not felt ashame for taking huge salary becos they are the best in the world.
Again going by the same token and assuming SG civil servants are the best and let further assume if opposition is to win the election, do you expect this bunch of world class best civil servant will become lousy overnight meh?
By right, Garment manage civil service and civil service should serve the nation but not toward any POLITICAL party. What has happened now?
IMHO, opposition can serve as an alternative voice to check and balance power corruption if you believe in power corrupt, absolute power corrupt absolutely.
Credit to the founding garment MPs to build Singapore from scratch and I tot these batch of MPs are excellent. I would vote for them if they come to my area.
:2cents:
proud owner
23-03-11, 10:31
if u know very well that a property is not worth buying but analyst/agent keep saying that the value will sure increase 50% in 5 years time. Will u buy?? if the property value drop 20% after 5 years, jus sell lor. is tat the risk u going to take?
wrong analysis ...
if you feel the property(A) has its potential .. (unlike NOT WORTH BUYING)
but others are complaining at the current property(B) .. BUT not sure if A is indeed a gem ...
then one should take the risk ... buy A .. and see if A is indeed a gem ...
if after 5 yrs and no sound no picture ..then sell take a loss .. as oppose to sitting behind the desk and complain about B and do nothing
wrong analysis ...
if you feel the property(A) has its potential .. (unlike NOT WORTH BUYING)
but others are complaining at the current property(B) .. BUT not sure if A is indeed a gem ...
then one should take the risk ... buy A .. and see if A is indeed a gem ...
if after 5 yrs and no sound no picture ..then sell take a loss .. as oppose to sitting behind the desk and complain about B and do nothing
now the scenario is property A's potential is unknown. but judging from the quality, there is nothing can impress/convince u that it is indeed a gem. across the street there is a hot property B with record high transaction. which will u buy? definitely i will buy B knowing that even the price will not increase it will definitely not drop. this is not complacent. knowing that the country is doing well why would i want to change to take unknown risk, bear in mind any change affect 6 million people not only u
proud owner
23-03-11, 10:47
now the scenario is property A's potential is unknown. but judging from the quality, there is nothing can impress/convince u that it is indeed a gem. across the street there is a hot property B with record high transaction. which will u buy? definitely i will buy B knowing that even the price will not increase it will definitely not drop. this is not complacent. knowing that the country is doing well why would i want to change to take unknown risk, bear in mind any change affect 6 million people not only u
property B is at all time high ... i wouldnt buy ...
and being ALL TIME HIGH for so long ... there are signs of complacency ..thats when people start to think of giving A a shot
but A has not been given the chance to shine ... thats the problem ..
similarly
a young, talented fresh graduate .. not given the chance ..not offered a job .. will never be able to prove his talent and worth ...right ?
by employing him ..is it considered taking a risk ? after all we are happy with existing employees ... why should we take on an unknown ?
also the new candidates .. have they proven themselves ?? NO
but they sit in the same boat and they get voted in that way .. so are we not taking a risk blindly ...? in fact not even given the chance to say NO I DONT WANT HIM ...
devilplate
23-03-11, 10:50
if oppositions rule ... and dont perform ... then kick them out at the next election
no point worrying if they are good or not ..until proven ...right ?
just have to take that chance and give them the opportunity to prove ..
if dont perform ..then they are out simple as that
vy hard to build up confidence n reputation once its tarnished....its not so simple
vy hard to build up confidence n reputation once its tarnished....its not so simple
That's what MM Lee purports. Basically leave no room for error. But a bigger error may be in hiding if we don't even try. You don't polish the gem, you never know its worth.
proud owner
23-03-11, 11:01
vy hard to build up confidence n reputation once its tarnished....its not so simple
one of the current minister last time also cheated $$
but LHL gave him a chance .. and the people just accepted it .. so is that fair ?
so who has the power to give the opposition a chance ? PAP ? hell no
it has to be the people right ?
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:04
That's what MM Lee purports. Basically leave no room for error. But a bigger error may be in hiding if we don't even try. You don't polish the gem, you never know its worth.
jus to clarify: i duno MM lee purports tat....it just come out of my mind.....
yes...i agree nvr try nvr noe....my stand is clear: i will give opposition a chance if any contest my area.....i aso agree not all PAP leaders r good.....PAP brand cannot simply sell by itself....we goto listen to both parties and see wat they can offer yay....and pls dun simply just vote opposition in bcoz u hate PAP.....relax....listen to both parties with a clear unbias mind and u decide who to vote yay:D
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:06
one of the current minister last time also cheated $$
but LHL gave him a chance .. and the people just accepted it .. so is that fair ?
so who has the power to give the opposition a chance ? PAP ? hell no
it has to be the people right ?
i agree tat citizens hf to vote the right man in...i am just saying once Sg brand is tarnished....vy hard to rebuild....for eg...investor's confidence will b gone .....so vote wisely and not recklessly:D
can u explain why GIC's investment in Citi was poor ?
wenqing, pls explain, in your words, why GIC's investment in Citi was poor.
show us how much you know abt financials.
thank you.
one of the current minister last time also cheated $$
but LHL gave him a chance .. and the people just accepted it .. so is that fair ?
so who has the power to give the opposition a chance ? PAP ? hell no
it has to be the people right ?
In the past few elections, it is the voters themselves that dont give the opposition candidates a chance. I wonder why?
Lets say I am swayed into giving them a chance. But please no admin assistant level. Professionals like successful engineers, doctors, lawyers ok. Successful businessman also ok.
Afterall they are running wards only, not entire country, so mayhaps they should be given a chance.
So perhaps they should not contest all the wards, but repeat By election strategy?
Wild Falcon
23-03-11, 11:11
I think some here just happy with the status quo (dictatorship + total domination by one party) and don't want to rock the boat. So be it lah. And also, some has reasonable "wealth" and don't really care much about the poor aunties and uncles who clean the toilets and wipe the tables at hawker centers (uniquely Singapore). So, just vote with whatever one believes it. No need to convert each other. Just like some prefer to die die invest in CCR (even tho' redas is already trying to define the lines) and never even consider anything slightly more unconventional in their lifetime. Sometimes I wonder, how do you know if you don't even dare to try?
But i guess what others say about Singaporeans are right - we are just super obedient our un-questioning respect for authority is pretty amazing - must be education system that spoon-feed us everything such that we lack critical independent thinking skills. Some of the argument for total domination by one party seems like something taken out from the Straits Times - ie cut and paste.
proud owner
23-03-11, 11:14
jus to clarify: i duno MM lee purports tat....it just come out of my mind.....
yes...i agree nvr try nvr noe....my stand is clear: i will give opposition a chance if any contest my area.....i aso agree not all PAP leaders r good.....PAP brand cannot simply sell by itself....we goto listen to both parties and see wat they can offer yay....and pls dun simply just vote opposition in bcoz u hate PAP.....relax....listen to both parties with a clear unbias mind and u decide who to vote yay:D
i totally agree
i am not a supporter of either camp
i just feel that in every system .. there must be Checks
and that the people can and must have the rights to make a change
if the existing camp restricts free flow ...then tat is wrong
i also feel their pay is ridiculous ..
i vote for one or 2 candidates who i feel are good and deserve to be there
but BULK entry and all get paid so much is wrong
why dont they advertise
" IF YOU VOTE US IN AGAIN, WE WILL CREATE MORE WEALTH FOR YOU ,WE WILL ALSO RAISE OUR OWN PAY BECOS WE ARE GOOD" ???
see who will vote for them..knowing they will be raising their own salary
proud owner
23-03-11, 11:16
In the past few elections, it is the voters themselves that dont give the opposition candidates a chance. I wonder why?
Lets say I am swayed into giving them a chance. But please no admin assistant level. Professionals like successful engineers, doctors, lawyers ok. Successful businessman also ok.
Afterall they are running wards only, not entire country, so mayhaps they should be given a chance.
So perhaps they should not contest all the wards, but repeat By election strategy?
sometimes i wonder do people join becos of the high salary ?
afterall the govt already said we need to pay these people well to serve the country SO THAT THEY DO NOT NEED TO CORRUPT ..
wapiang
that thought itself is SO CORRUPT
jus to clarify: i duno MM lee purports tat....it just come out of my mind.....
yes...i agree nvr try nvr noe....my stand is clear: i will give opposition a chance if any contest my area.....i aso agree not all PAP leaders r good.....PAP brand cannot simply sell by itself....we goto listen to both parties and see wat they can offer yay....and pls dun simply just vote opposition in bcoz u hate PAP.....relax....listen to both parties with a clear unbias mind and u decide who to vote yay:D
In the interview leading up to his book the Hard Truths he ever admitted that everything the gahmen do now is solely for the purpose of Elections. And that the opposition parties must never be given a chance to rise at all. His justification is they raise up and that's it for Singapore. We are finished. The old man been known as the elitist. So he rather leave nothing to chance and hence giving opposition a chance to try them out is out of the question and equation.
I agree some opposition parties figures are simply clowns. They really are. In fact they are a shame to the entire nation. But there are also others who are proving themselves. Yes it is definitely a must to listen to what their (the opposition) agenda will be. To be frank I think the MP for my area is seriously getting very complacent after years of election walk-through. In my 20 years of tenure in my flat, I never had a chance to get up close and personal with the fellow because there is no need for him to come knocking on my door during elections. I don't even know if he is aware of the problems that the community is facing in my area. All I know is the fellow drives a flashy 350SLK coupe and god knows what full time job he has outside!
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:21
But i guess what others say about Singaporeans are right - we are just super obedient our un-questioning respect for authority is pretty amazing - must be education system that spoon-feed us everything such that we lack critical independent thinking skills. Some of the argument for total domination by one party seems like something taken out from the Straits Times - ie cut and paste.
i agree on the educational system...it lacks creativity and doesnt help to hone one's critical tinking....many top students mabe only noe how to memorise txtbooks word for word....
proud owner
23-03-11, 11:23
But i guess what others say about Singaporeans are right - we are just super obedient our un-questioning respect for authority is pretty amazing - must be education system that spoon-feed us everything such that we lack critical independent thinking skills. Some of the argument for total domination by one party seems like something taken out from the Straits Times - ie cut and paste.[/quote]
singaporeans only know how to complain about those 'below' themselves ..
and NEVER ever channel that energy to challenge some of the policies ... cos 'no seed'
i have seen singaporeans threatening to march down to the office of the tour agency to demand a full refund .. when the tour to Egpyt was cancelled due to riots there ...
its for their own safety and yet they so angry and said the agency Ruined their chinese new year ( the riots was just before CNY)
the agnecy was worried as cairo cut internet and phone line ..and they were afraid that these singaporeans might be trapped at the airport for days .. hence decided to cancel the tour
yet these sproeans turned and vent their energy at the agency ...sigh ...
when they were refunded the full amount .. they somemore demand for refund of insurance, taxi fare ?? WTF ?
so ugly ...so so ugly
only know how to bully those 'below' them, and when it comes to authority ...all NO SEED ...
sometimes i wonder do people join becos of the high salary ?
afterall the govt already said we need to pay these people well to serve the country SO THAT THEY DO NOT NEED TO CORRUPT ..
wapiang
that thought itself is SO CORRUPT
whats wrong with being practical and realistic? You think people are not tempted when in positions of power?
whats wrong with being practical and realistic? You think people are not tempted when in positions of power?
Nothing Wrong Sir. What's wrong is the ethics. If they are tempted by power and $, they should abstain from using catchphrases such as:
"WE ARE HERE TO SERVE YOU"
"I AM FULLY INVESTED IN SINGAPORE"
blah
blah
blah
Using the above made them the highest paid liars in the world.
proud owner
23-03-11, 11:27
whats wrong with being practical and realistic? You think people are not tempted when in positions of power?
so doing it openly is not corrupt ? hahah
so from now on all corrupt openly .. its not a crime anymore
But i guess what others say about Singaporeans are right - we are just super obedient our un-questioning respect for authority is pretty amazing - must be education system that spoon-feed us everything such that we lack critical independent thinking skills. Some of the argument for total domination by one party seems like something taken out from the Straits Times - ie cut and paste.
maybe it is a good thing. in times of disaster, people are trained to respond to authorities:)
Government can launch "no rioting" campaign, "no looting" campaign.
People queue orderly for their rations.
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:30
obedient citizens....no riots....not a bad thing....hehe....stable country mah
so doing it openly is not corrupt ? hahah
so from now on all corrupt openly .. its not a crime anymore
If the law allows it, then it is legal.
If corrupt openly and not legal, then it is still a crime. It is open secret that Malaysian and Indonesian police are corrupt, but it is still illegal.
I can see traffic offenders paying off police in the open, but it is still illegal.
:doh::doh::doh::doh:
guys, are all of you happy to see this place becoming a useless talkcock/ political ranting/complaining coffeeshop ?
all thanks to one annoying joker persistently posting his politics bashing/complaints/etc everywhere.
and 80% of the forum traffic are focused on this ?
are you all happy with that ? Is this the level you would like to see this forum become ?
do not engage him. he's having a hell of good time. he does not belong here. he does not understand economics, financials. this is a business forum.
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:34
so doing it openly is not corrupt ? hahah
so from now on all corrupt openly .. its not a crime anymore
i tink i prefer corrupt openly by paying high salaries if u interpret it tat way rather den to have a corrupted govt which only tink of ways/policies/regulations to make themselves richer?
bopian leh....
i posted b4....
$$ is the root of all evil ?
OR
not enough $$ is the root of all evil?
i tink both....wat to do....greed and fear rules....
ppty market for instance r mainly driven by greed and fear(market sentiment) rather den fundamental supply and demand....
devilplate
23-03-11, 11:38
:doh::doh::doh::doh:
guys, are all of you happy to see this place becoming a useless talkcock/ political ranting/complaining coffeeshop ?
all thanks to one annoying joker persistently posting his politics bashing/complaints/etc everywhere.
and 80% of the forum traffic are focused on this ?
are you all happy with that ? Is this the level you would like to see this forum become ?
do not engage him. he's having a hell of good time. he does not belong here. he does not understand economics, financials. this is a business forum.
yday midnite i was annoyed by wenqing....he happily created another thread to tok about politics again...initially, i saw the title...got blah blah...4rm HDB....i tot ppty related....but den....super turned off man!:doh:
http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=3089849&page=2
Transport Minister Raymond Lim: If GST is raise to 8.5%, Public Transport will be Free. Any Takers??
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rRfd_IefiU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsnX5QJ90UA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BygOYrP722Y&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxW6Bfr0eCE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcyZhJ4USrI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZgH3wbYH4I&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao-DGAw1Q2o&feature=related
i'm for it and will call his bluff. :cool:
even though i seldom take public transport, the few times i did it is really bad.
property B is at all time high ... i wouldnt buy ...
and being ALL TIME HIGH for so long ... there are signs of complacency ..thats when people start to think of giving A a shot
but A has not been given the chance to shine ... thats the problem ..
similarly
a young, talented fresh graduate .. not given the chance ..not offered a job .. will never be able to prove his talent and worth ...right ?
by employing him ..is it considered taking a risk ? after all we are happy with existing employees ... why should we take on an unknown ?
also the new candidates .. have they proven themselves ?? NO
but they sit in the same boat and they get voted in that way .. so are we not taking a risk blindly ...? in fact not even given the chance to say NO I DONT WANT HIM ...
PO,
No way will I use such analogy between under-valued ppty/ hiring a fresh grad with giving the opposition a shot in 'trying' out. You are talking about 3 mio citizen's wellbeing at stake here.
Further more, a fresh grad who cannot perform can be counselled out over a period of time, or shipped out within a day. Wrong guy voted in? At least 4-5 years. I'm certainly not taking that risk.
And it's this stability and low risk that Singapore is built upon and foreign investors seek. If they want risk, they will go else where. In fact, many places offer risk (and probably higher rewards) but Sg's competitive advantage is stability. This is the reason why a lot of people do not want to risk trying something else. Once we do not have this stability, we become just another 'risky' country. There is a bunch of them out there and how do we compete with them? And if we can't compete with them, the poor WILL become poorer.
:doh::doh::doh::doh:
guys, are all of you happy to see this place becoming a useless talkcock/ political ranting/complaining coffeeshop ?
all thanks to one annoying joker persistently posting his politics bashing/complaints/etc everywhere.
and 80% of the forum traffic are focused on this ?
are you all happy with that ? Is this the level you would like to see this forum become ?
do not engage him. he's having a hell of good time. he does not belong here. he does not understand economics, financials. this is a business forum.
aiyo...... who are u to decide who or what belongs here or where, why so dictatorial? :o
:doh::doh::doh::doh:
guys, are all of you happy to see this place becoming a useless talkcock/ political ranting/complaining coffeeshop ?
all thanks to one annoying joker persistently posting his politics bashing/complaints/etc everywhere.
and 80% of the forum traffic are focused on this ?
are you all happy with that ? Is this the level you would like to see this forum become ?
do not engage him. he's having a hell of good time. he does not belong here. he does not understand economics, financials. this is a business forum.
Initially I thot the same. But some things this guy posted are dangerous and has certain ramifications which will affect the society at large. This will definitely affect business and ppty. Thus I decided not to simply ignore him.
PO,
No way will I use such analogy between under-valued ppty/ hiring a fresh grad with giving the opposition a shot in 'trying' out. You are talking about 3 mio citizen's wellbeing at stake here.
Further more, a fresh grad who cannot perform can be counselled out over a period of time, or shipped out within a day. Wrong guy voted in? At least 4-5 years. I'm certainly not taking that risk.
"wrong guy voted in" applies to PAP too, do u not agree?
problem is Opposition can be easily voted out, but a wrong PAP guy voted in will almost be untouchable... worst u may not even know is a wrong guy because there is no independent media to investigate, no independent checks and balance to the system, and no transparency.
i also do not think the pap has a monopoly on talented people. there are many who are talented but refuses to get into politics or public service because they want nothing to do with a such a political system.
And it's this stability and low risk that Singapore is built upon and foreign investors seek. If they want risk, they will go else where. In fact, many places offer risk (and probably higher rewards) but Sg's competitive advantage is stability. This is the reason why a lot of people do not want to risk trying something else. Once we do not have this stability, we become just another 'risky' country. There is a bunch of them out there and how do we compete with them? And if we can't compete with them, the poor WILL become poorer.
my take is if u want stability, then u should be very concerned about the current state of affairs - where a rambling old man past expiry date still calls the shots, party cadres who are Yes men, no transparency and accountability, a limp judiciary, & no meaningful engagement with the ground. All these will lead to greater upheavals down the road, which no one wants.
A complacent ruling party spells bad news. A complacent and irremovable ruling party is even badder news. Voting Opposition, i believe is the only way to make the ruling party wake up their ideas lol. Better to inject competition and slight "noises" to stress test the system now rather than getting a big violent shock later which may just kill the system lol.
Americans will never give their rights to democracy and voting out governments, it is their culture.
They never like and never believe the idea of 'perfect leader' and propagandish one party government.
Dont talk crap about Americans if you do not know them well enough.
Many Singaporeans also go overseas to study especially government scholars.They prefer UK, US and Aussie universities.
Most of your new PAP MPs studied overseas than local universities.
From O to A levels, we take exams from UK GCE, so UK government is the best ??
You must be wondering why people of these countries still vote their governments out at times.
Linking people coming here to study to good government is really funny and shallow. It says alot about the shallow education Singaporeans are having in Singapore.
Your examples are there but weak and unconvincing.
Easily debunked.
Is this all you can do, just because I have highlighted positive things the govt has done, you call it shallow? Unless you choose to believe otherwise, it's because of the security, stability, and quality education that attracts foreigners to Singapore.
The very fact that a child who has gone through the education system in Sg and still be able to compete with others for a place in Ivy League Schools shows our education system is definitely robust enough.
No one is arguing nor will argue that our local universities are top of the world. Not even the Dean themselves. That's why we go overseas! To be with the best, and be trained by the best. And this speaks volume for the efforts of this govt to put in place an education system that gives singaporeans a decent shot at Ivy League Schools.
Many govts of the world proclaim that they want to provide basic education for their children. But not many succeed. However, this is 1 area which this govt has done well and do not, I repeat, do not take it away from them.
All you have done thus far is to keep bringing up issues and challenging others to debate. This is exactly what many do not believe in. Constructive debates are good. However, personal agenda with wild assumptions and flawed reasoning are unproductive and a waste of time.
And we also cannot just simply compare with Taiwan for instance. Their economy and population is so much bigger than Singapore. Their probability of success is naturally higher that Singapore. Singapore is unique and we need a unique solution. To just sweep across and suggest we can compare with other countries and adopt their system is at best naive (or shallow in your own words) or maybe a deliberate attempt to create a populist agenda. I believe in our current system and see harm if we try to change things just for the sake of changing coz we simply can't afford to take chances. This is my own belief, even before it's reported by MSM.
Easily argued too :spliff:
Allthepies
23-03-11, 12:55
why growth rate?
why not peg to size of economy? that would be helluva lot more proportionate
of course u must tied to growth rate not the pie size... here's a simple example
1) Manager A managed $100billion in asset but lose $10billion a year
2) Manager B managed $1billion in asset but gain $1billion a year
if u peg to size of economy, Manager A will be paid more than Mangager B. However Manager A does nothing productive but to lose the capital.... :2cents:
Is this all you can do, just because I have highlighted positive things the govt has done, you call it shallow? Unless you choose to believe otherwise, it's because of the security, stability, and quality education that attracts foreigners to Singapore.
The very fact that a child who has gone through the education system in Sg and still be able to compete with others for a place in Ivy League Schools shows our education system is definitely robust enough.
No one is arguing nor will argue that our local universities are top of the world. Not even the Dean themselves. That's why we go overseas! To be with the best, and be trained by the best. And this speaks volume for the efforts of this govt to put in place an education system that gives singaporeans a decent shot at Ivy League Schools.
Many govts of the world proclaim that they want to provide basic education for their children. But not many succeed. However, this is 1 area which this govt has done well and do not, I repeat, do not take it away from them.
All you have done thus far is to keep bringing up issues and challenging others to debate. This is exactly what many do not believe in. Constructive debates are good. However, personal agenda with wild assumptions and flawed reasoning are unproductive and a waste of time.
And we also cannot just simply compare with Taiwan for instance. Their economy and population is so much bigger than Singapore. Their probability of success is naturally higher that Singapore. Singapore is unique and we need a unique solution. To just sweep across and suggest we can compare with other countries and adopt their system is at best naive (or shallow in your own words) or maybe a deliberate attempt to create a populist agenda. I believe in our current system and see harm if we try to change things just for the sake of changing coz we simply can't afford to take chances. This is my own belief, even before it's reported by MSM.
Easily argued too :spliff:
hello pal, be fair
comparing with others who dont fare as well as us in some areas will always make ourselves look good. Comparing with others who are better than us in other areas is the way to improve ourselves. :)
imo in recent yrs there is not enough of comparing with others who are better... and the sense of humility in our ruling party seems to have evaporated too... worrying leh
Thus I decided not to simply ignore him.
It's really very nice of you to thoroughly rebuke his sensational claims.
But I can tell you it's going to be completely falling on deaf ears.
I challenged him to explain why GIC's Citi deal was "poor", to no avail. I'm not even sure he knows abt the terms of this deal, before making his sensational accusations.
The best he can come up with, is probably another sensational claim.
How do you engage a meaningful discussion like that ?
if u know very well that a property is not worth buying but analyst/agent keep saying that the value will sure increase 50% in 5 years time. Will u buy?? if the property value drop 20% after 5 years, jus sell lor. is tat the risk u going to take?
Another fortune teller using scare tactics. This tactic is outdated.
It only work on uneducated and shallow Singaporeans.
You should try this on North Koreans.
So when PAP was opposition and came into power = property prices dropped ??
How come other advanced countries change governments so many times, property prices never drop ??
It's really very nice of you to thoroughly rebuke his sensational claims.
But I can tell you it's going to be completely falling on deaf ears.
I challenged him to explain why GIC's Citi deal was "poor", to no avail. I'm not even sure he knows abt the terms of this deal, before making his sensational accusations.
The best he can come up with, is probably another sensational claim.
How do you engage a meaningful discussion like that ?
This is because it is everywhere in the news that Temasek bought into Citibank and value of Citibank continue to drop and Temasek sold at a loss just before Citi Group regain its value.
Go and read yourself.
You can self praise and be self delusion all you want, its your right.
devilplate
23-03-11, 13:15
to all opposition supporters....can post anything u like under coffeeshop talk....
and for the better quality of ur post, i suggest to post more juicy stuff about the opposition members as in gd stuff tat they hf shown and u tink u wana post it here(under coffeeshop thread) to create some awareness tat tells ppl tat hey: opposition got substance one....
i mean i am not convinced whether the person got substance anot if he/she only noe how to find fault and question why this and tat....:D
i am sure many of us r 'neutral' including myself....i side nobody but will vote the right man in which i tink he/she deserves....
devilplate
23-03-11, 13:17
It's really very nice of you to thoroughly rebuke his sensational claims.
But I can tell you it's going to be completely falling on deaf ears.
I challenged him to explain why GIC's Citi deal was "poor", to no avail. I'm not even sure he knows abt the terms of this deal, before making his sensational accusations.
The best he can come up with, is probably another sensational claim.
How do you engage a meaningful discussion like that ?
ya lor...get frustrated rite....and he likes to pick on the words u use.....wah piang....my english standard u all shd noe rite....full of grammar mistakes ....smtimes wrong choice of words....den kena twisted left right center.....haha
Is this all you can do, just because I have highlighted positive things the govt has done, you call it shallow? Unless you choose to believe otherwise, it's because of the security, stability, and quality education that attracts foreigners to Singapore.
The very fact that a child who has gone through the education system in Sg and still be able to compete with others for a place in Ivy League Schools shows our education system is definitely robust enough.
No one is arguing nor will argue that our local universities are top of the world. Not even the Dean themselves. That's why we go overseas! To be with the best, and be trained by the best. And this speaks volume for the efforts of this govt to put in place an education system that gives singaporeans a decent shot at Ivy League Schools.
Many govts of the world proclaim that they want to provide basic education for their children. But not many succeed. However, this is 1 area which this govt has done well and do not, I repeat, do not take it away from them.
All you have done thus far is to keep bringing up issues and challenging others to debate. This is exactly what many do not believe in. Constructive debates are good. However, personal agenda with wild assumptions and flawed reasoning are unproductive and a waste of time.
And we also cannot just simply compare with Taiwan for instance. Their economy and population is so much bigger than Singapore. Their probability of success is naturally higher that Singapore. Singapore is unique and we need a unique solution. To just sweep across and suggest we can compare with other countries and adopt their system is at best naive (or shallow in your own words) or maybe a deliberate attempt to create a populist agenda. I believe in our current system and see harm if we try to change things just for the sake of changing coz we simply can't afford to take chances. This is my own belief, even before it's reported by MSM.
Easily argued too :spliff:
You are repeating PAP mantra here that cannot change this and that.
But your reasons are weak and self-conflicting.
You are saying to scrap the election system that brought PAP to power.
Ironic right ??
hello pal, be fair
comparing with others who dont fare as well as us in some areas will always make ourselves look good. Comparing with others who are better than us in other areas is the way to improve ourselves. :)
imo in recent yrs there is not enough of comparing with others who are better... and the sense of humility in our ruling party seems to have evaporated too... worrying leh
August,
No worries. I'm not suggesting we do not compare with the best. As mentioned in 1-2 posts above, we want to be with the best and learned from the best (read my post on education). Thats the way to advance. But we also need to be careful in what we choose to emulate. We cant really take wholesale from others.
It's just that across numerous online chatter, you see similar rantings from some people with hidden agenda speaking against the govt. And they will hide behind the computer, overseas proxy, whatever, and try to spread their message across like it's the view of majority. I have read some comments here that so many are unhappy with the salary of ministers. But there are also others (many or not, we dun know coz nobody counted) who are fine with the salary of the ministers but they just did not say it out. Humans love to complain when they receive bad service. But how many will give a pat to others when good service is rendered?
Thus I just want balance things a little as some rants are getting too noisy for my liking. Actually, I seldom discuss such things and seldom engage in discussion with people who refuse to see the other side of the coin due to hidden agenda.
devilplate
23-03-11, 13:23
Another fortune teller using scare tactics. This tactic is outdated.
It only work on uneducated and shallow Singaporeans.
You should try this on North Koreans.
So when PAP was opposition and came into power = property prices dropped ??
How come other advanced countries change governments so many times, property prices never drop ??
lets tok about ur last time comments
u said: burden lies on readers/buyers and not seller/agts/writer.....tats really scary u noe.....tats really irresponsible u noe........den y govt set up CEA....enforcing transparency?
isnt tat comment shallow?
lets tok about ur last time comments
u said: burden lies on readers/buyers and not seller/agts/writer.....tats really scary u noe.....tats really irresponsible u noe........den y govt set up CEA....enforcing transparency?
isnt tat comment shallow?
You can set up CEA , set up SPCA , set up FIFA etc but whether you want to buy flats, buy pets and watch football still depend on yourself right ??
All the organisations in the world cannot force you do anything you do not have in mind right ??
So you still carry the burden of choice to buy or not right ??
Another fortune teller using scare tactics. This tactic is outdated.
It only work on uneducated and shallow Singaporeans.
You should try this on North Koreans.
So when PAP was opposition and came into power = property prices dropped ??
How come other advanced countries change governments so many times, property prices never drop ??
You also fortune teller what? Say if dun have opposition as check and balances, we might end up with chaos and riots. So are you shallow and uneducated?
This is an example of how you use ridiculous analogy to argue a point or try to make your argument seem reasonable. Like I said, we cannot just compare with other countries and suggest it's an apple-apple comparison. And as mentioned to PO too. Ppty px is driven by demand and supply. Nothing else. His argument is shifting govt in Singapore can lead to decrease in demand as part of our demand is foreign driven. However, shifting govt in other countries might not lead to lower prices is just because their driving forces are different from us. Thus I say again, we can't just simply compare with other countries. And I love it when you say others are shallow coz you sound just like one.....or you are deliberately throwing smoke screens?
This is because it is everywhere in the news that Temasek bought into Citibank and value of Citibank continue to drop and Temasek sold at a loss just before Citi Group regain its value.
I quote you here just to prove you know so little about financials.
So you know nothing about this Citi deal ? btw it's GIC not Temasek.
What if I tell you this deal is positive ? :cool:
This just shows you are ridiculously ignorant of what you are posting.
devilplate
23-03-11, 13:47
You can set up CEA , set up SPCA , set up FIFA etc but whether you want to buy flats, buy pets and watch football still depend on yourself right ??
All the organisations in the world cannot force you do anything you do not have in mind right ??
So you still carry the burden of choice to buy or not right ??
both parties r responsible.....the burden lies on both buyers/sellers/agts/readers/writers
its wrong to mislead....misrepresent and with CEA now, agts found out guilty of doing so can be jailed
You are repeating PAP mantra here that cannot change this and that.
But your reasons are weak and self-conflicting.
You are saying to scrap the election system that brought PAP to power.
Ironic right ??
Not right again. I'm not repeating their mantra. I just subscribe to their believe that's all. And even if I'm really repeating it, arent you doing the same by posting so much hardware zone, YouTube links. You mean only you can do it but others can't? Wow, isn't that dictatorship??!! :D See, very easy to expose you even without you appearing in public for public scrutiny.
Giving you the reasons and STILL keeping the election system for you to vote is what PAP is doing. So please do not put words in my mouth. Or again, is that what you are good at? Putting words in others mouth? Can we trust you at all if you wrongly accuse others of what they did not say? I rest my case.
Regulators
23-03-11, 14:00
This thread was started to discuss solely about the unjust increment of the president's pay and minister's high salary. No matter what leaders in our tiny country do, it will never justify them having the highest pay in the world. It simply makes no logical sense for many of the unknown MPs in Singapore to be paid more than Obama, Hilary Clinton or Ben Bernanke by any standards. Worse of all is for an 83 year old don't-know-do-what figurehead to be paid $4.2 million a year out of taxpayers.
With regard to the opposition, they need the support of the people to create a less lopsided political system. To have only 2 opposition MPs in parliament to help us fight for injustices against the people is simply not what a healthy political system should be. Please do not suggest for people who share their views against the government in this forum to join the opposition, coz i have said before that not everybody is suited to be in politics. Again it doesnt mean that people should be prevented from sharing their political views as political beings. In my travels to other developed countries, people talk about politics during meals and all the time without seeing it as taboo. I do not understand why some forumers here shun this topic like some kind of taboo. Why should such an important topic involving how taxpayer's money is used be coffeeshop talk? If one day you are not allowed to withdraw your CPF funds till 80 years, minimum sum increases to $1 million, ups the GST to 17% like the VAT, charges capital gains tax on selling of property etc etc that is going to hit you hard in the pocket, would you still have the same attitude towards them?
to all opposition supporters....can post anything u like under coffeeshop talk....
and for the better quality of ur post, i suggest to post more juicy stuff about the opposition members as in gd stuff tat they hf shown and u tink u wana post it here(under coffeeshop thread) to create some awareness tat tells ppl tat hey: opposition got substance one....
August,
No worries. I'm not suggesting we do not compare with the best. As mentioned in 1-2 posts above, we want to be with the best and learned from the best (read my post on education). Thats the way to advance. But we also need to be careful in what we choose to emulate. We cant really take wholesale from others.
actually emulation and adoption also applies to the ruling party, take e.g. emulation & adoption of GST, no?
regressive taxation hurts the poor most, and PAP's tag line "raising GST is to help the poor" is nonsense actually lol.
so this is definitely not emulating the best.
It's just that across numerous online chatter, you see similar rantings from some people with hidden agenda speaking against the govt. And they will hide behind the computer, overseas proxy, whatever, and try to spread their message across like it's the view of majority. I have read some comments here that so many are unhappy with the salary of ministers. But there are also others (many or not, we dun know coz nobody counted) who are fine with the salary of the ministers but they just did not say it out. Humans love to complain when they receive bad service. But how many will give a pat to others when good service is rendered?
Thus I just want balance things a little as some rants are getting too noisy for my liking. Actually, I seldom discuss such things and seldom engage in discussion with people who refuse to see the other side of the coin due to hidden agenda.
the emergence of internet has changed things. online media provides a channel for views and opinions that would otherwise have been suppressed, e.g. wikileaks. of course some people does not like this becos for the 1st time they are challenged & cannot dominate the flow of information, and information is power. So online media actually balances the one-sided mainstream media which until now had been able to dominate mainstream discourse and serve the agendas of their political bosses.
read our mainstream media and news, u get a good dosage of praises and positive rants. they even have this section in the forum titled Bouquets that lauds or praise good services haha. :2cents: But never for a second forget they too have hidden agendas of their own. So this is fair game imo.
we as neutral folks will be better served to be able to hear both sides of the discourse without someone controlling the flow of information and discourse.
August,
No worries. I'm not suggesting we do not compare with the best. As mentioned in 1-2 posts above, we want to be with the best and learned from the best (read my post on education). Thats the way to advance. But we also need to be careful in what we choose to emulate. We cant really take wholesale from others.
actually emulation and adoption also applies to the ruling party, take e.g. emulation & adoption of GST, no?
regressive taxation hurts the poor most, and PAP's tag line "raising GST is to help the poor" is nonsense actually lol.
so this is definitely not emulating the best.
It's just that across numerous online chatter, you see similar rantings from some people with hidden agenda speaking against the govt. And they will hide behind the computer, overseas proxy, whatever, and try to spread their message across like it's the view of majority. I have read some comments here that so many are unhappy with the salary of ministers. But there are also others (many or not, we dun know coz nobody counted) who are fine with the salary of the ministers but they just did not say it out. Humans love to complain when they receive bad service. But how many will give a pat to others when good service is rendered?
Thus I just want balance things a little as some rants are getting too noisy for my liking. Actually, I seldom discuss such things and seldom engage in discussion with people who refuse to see the other side of the coin due to hidden agenda.
the emergence of internet has changed things. online media provides a channel for views and opinions that would otherwise have been suppressed, e.g. wikileaks. of course some people does not like this becos for the 1st time they are challenged & cannot dominate the flow of information, and information is power. So online media actually balances the one-sided mainstream media which until now had been able to dominate mainstream discourse and serve the agendas of their political bosses.
read our mainstream media and news, u get a good dosage of praises and positive rants. they even have this section in the forum titled Bouquets that lauds or praise good services haha. :2cents: But never for a second forget they too have hidden agendas of their own. So this is fair game imo.
we as neutral folks will be better served to be able to hear as many sides of the discourse without someone controlling the flow of information and discourse.
I quote you here just to prove you know so little about financials.
So you know nothing about this Citi deal ? btw it's GIC not Temasek.
What if I tell you this deal is positive ? :cool:
This just shows you are ridiculously ignorant of what you are posting.
That is worse.
I am use to the daughter-in-law making losses but not her father-in-law.
Ok now I know both screwed up at 2009 financial crisis. Thanks.
You also fortune teller what? Say if dun have opposition as check and balances, we might end up with chaos and riots. So are you shallow and uneducated?
This is an example of how you use ridiculous analogy to argue a point or try to make your argument seem reasonable. Like I said, we cannot just compare with other countries and suggest it's an apple-apple comparison. And as mentioned to PO too. Ppty px is driven by demand and supply. Nothing else. His argument is shifting govt in Singapore can lead to decrease in demand as part of our demand is foreign driven. However, shifting govt in other countries might not lead to lower prices is just because their driving forces are different from us. Thus I say again, we can't just simply compare with other countries. And I love it when you say others are shallow coz you sound just like one.....or you are deliberately throwing smoke screens?
You talk here and there then insist PAP if replace will cause property price to drop.
What evidence do you have, did it happen before ? No right ?
Did Hougang and Potong Pasir cheap ? No also right ?
My examples I use is base on similiar history with authoritarian governments around the world and single family control.
At least my conclusions are closer than yours which has no historical basis.
devilplate
24-03-11, 22:15
glad tat the website is up again!
tks admin for reorganising :cheers6:
every1 pls do their part to post under relevant section:cheers6:
I've always been very clear on whom I will vote for but few days ago e opposition candidate came to my doorstep knocking n guess who it was - Steve chia now I'm undecided between voting for opposition to keep ruling party in check or voting for dis man with topless maid pictures but at least he has been a nmp before so can I say he is competent ? Y doesn't wp compete in my precint?
Regulators
25-03-11, 00:10
Likewise if you see wong kan seng, you would also be thinking about the escape of mas selamat. Steve Chia will provide a good check on the government as his political views are sound. He is at least true to himself and the people and not like many pretentious people.
I've always been very clear on whom I will vote for but few days ago e opposition candidate came to my doorstep knocking n guess who it was - Steve chia now I'm undecided between voting for opposition to keep ruling party in check or voting for dis man with topless maid pictures but at least he has been a nmp before so can I say he is competent ? Y doesn't wp compete in my precint?
That is worse.
I am use to the daughter-in-law making losses but not her father-in-law.
Ok now I know both screwed up at 2009 financial crisis. Thanks.
1st of all thanks admin for putting this thread in the right place. Pls observe the rules every one.
2nd I want to get this record straight. U dun know what u r talking abt. Let's for the moment dun even consider the political agenda behind. Pure financials alone, GIC's Citi deal was a very decent deal. It's a 7% note non diluteable senior debt. It's not callable for 7 yrs! And only converstable when a min 20% premium is reached. And most importantly, GIC now made a close to 3 bln USD profit, with half of it realized ! Dude, u need to give credit when it's due. Btw it shows how ridiculously ignorant you are for many real world issues. Remember, knowledge and expertise is not gained by google and Internet. :cool:
Lastly dun judge my political conviction based on my view on this Citi deal alone. Your view on politics is so simplistic, I cannot engage any serious discussion with you. So I'll just leave it at that.
the target had been set at 10% since couple of years ago, comparable to what's in the western countries.
western countries policies are different in many aspects...what I do know is when some body pay increases very high in our backyard,....someone is going to fund it..and who is that someone...the general public...:D
Likewise if you see wong kan seng, you would also be thinking about the escape of mas selamat. Steve Chia will provide a good check on the government as his political views are sound. He is at least true to himself and the people and not like many pretentious people.
Between Minister Wong's mistake and Steve Chia's mistake, Wong Kan Seng's mistake more serious so I will vote Steve Chia.
The same goes to PAP's numerous other mistakes last 5 years.
1st of all thanks admin for putting this thread in the right place. Pls observe the rules every one.
2nd I want to get this record straight. U dun know what u r talking abt. Let's for the moment dun even consider the political agenda behind. Pure financials alone, GIC's Citi deal was a very decent deal. It's a 7% note non diluteable senior debt. It's not callable for 7 yrs! And only converstable when a min 20% premium is reached. And most importantly, GIC now made a close to 3 bln USD profit, with half of it realized ! Dude, u need to give credit when it's due. Btw it shows how ridiculously ignorant you are for many real world issues. Remember, knowledge and expertise is not gained by google and Internet. :cool:
Lastly dun judge my political conviction based on my view on this Citi deal alone. Your view on politics is so simplistic, I cannot engage any serious discussion with you. So I'll just leave it at that.
Yep, you are the expert. I am just a road sweeper.
The positive headlines lessen the pain but losses are losses. Not just Citi.
GIC’s loss on UBS and Citi can fund 13 YOGs
GIC $59b loss
http://asiancorrespondent.com/25286/gic-59b-loss/
http://atans1.wordpress.com/2010/10/01/gics-loss-on-ubs-and-citi-investment/
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My+Money/Story/A1Story20090301-125407.html
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My+Money/Story/A1Story20100928-239487.html
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-30/gic-plans-to-hold-on-to-citigroup-ubs-stakes-for-many-years-tan-says.html
http://groups.google.com/group/soc.culture.singapore/browse_thread/thread/e8aac3ac58567529/349c1fea5eb1fea2?lnk=raot
I've always been very clear on whom I will vote for but few days ago e opposition candidate came to my doorstep knocking n guess who it was - Steve chia now I'm undecided between voting for opposition to keep ruling party in check or voting for dis man with topless maid pictures but at least he has been a nmp before so can I say he is competent ? Y doesn't wp compete in my precint?
While who let you down more the last 5 years and who make you pay more for everything the last 5 years ?
Who make mistakes more serious than Steve Chia's nude photo last 5 years ?
I doubt any answers above is Steve Chia. He never let Singapore down before when needed.
Letting himself down before is his personal matter and he already paid the penalty for it. It is an honest mistake, lets move on. ;)
I hope it answers your question.
If actor Tay Ping Hui who had one-night-stands before as admitted in media can be potential PAP candidate plus Jack Neo who abuse his position as movie director to have *** with a teenager can be PAP candidate, why not Steve Chia ??
devilplate
25-03-11, 02:37
Yep, you are the expert. I am just a road sweeper.
The positive headlines lessen the pain but losses are losses. Not just Citi.
todate: investing citi is a profit making investment for GIC....
and AMK is toking about citi only....do not include UBS into the picture....
u like to mislead reader....using sep 09 article......tats explain ur character....simply irresponsible....luckily u r jus a voter
he could have simply said: oh sorry I didn't know Citi was a profitable deal. Thanks GIC for making 3bln on Citi.
Instead , he did exactly what I said he would do: using other sensational postings to sidetrack. Even better, all he did was posting his internet search results.
Look, this is the quality of a person you are dealing with. It's worse than an admin assistant.
I have no interest to engage discussion with some one with this low level of integrity, knowledge, and expertise.
U know this Citi deal, even at the time when it was entered, was quite interesting. Had he been more competent, I would have loved to discuss with him the risk and payoff of the deal. Too bad he doesn't even understand, or even remotely attempt to understand, the meaning of senior debt, perpetual note, lock in callable window, redemption premium, preferred antidilution status, etc. All he can do is google search and read the headlines. :cool:
Sorry dude, I wrote off him completely. We are not at the same level.
Before other forumers jumping in and say "why dictate others". Well you judge yourself what kind of ppl you are dealing with here.
amk, I think majority of us are also ignorant what those terms means and their significance. And when we put together those terms in a deal, sure even more lost on how these terms interact with one another.
Googling those terms can give definitions, but the interplay of these terms,...:beats-me-man:. Not a roadsweeper but in agriculture.
amk, you work in investment banking?
devilplate
25-03-11, 10:43
i aso not sure about those terms...haha...
morale of the story: dun act smart:D
By the way, what exactly is the Citi's deal that GIC went into? What are the terms & conditions? Can provide some pointers to the details? Thanks! :cheers1:
he could have simply said: oh sorry I didn't know Citi was a profitable deal. Thanks GIC for making 3bln on Citi.
Instead , he did exactly what I said he would do: using other sensational postings to sidetrack. Even better, all he did was posting his internet search results.
Look, this is the quality of a person you are dealing with. It's worse than an admin assistant.
I have no interest to engage discussion with some one with this low level of integrity, knowledge, and expertise.
U know this Citi deal, even at the time when it was entered, was quite interesting. Had he been more competent, I would have loved to discuss with him the risk and payoff of the deal. Too bad he doesn't even understand, or even remotely attempt to understand, the meaning of senior debt, perpetual note, lock in callable window, redemption premium, preferred antidilution status, etc. All he can do is google search and read the headlines. :cool:
Sorry dude, I wrote off him completely. We are not at the same level.
Before other forumers jumping in and say "why dictate others". Well you judge yourself what kind of ppl you are dealing with here.
hopeful bro, if he doesn't know, he could at least 1) ask, 2) try to find out, and 3) dun post something wrong as fact. GIC's Citi deal was a good one from the start. I gave me chances several times by asking him to "explain in your own language". Had he actually spent any effort to understand what he posted, he would have immediately realized he made a mistake (abt GIC made a loss on Citi). Now even after I told him that deal is a 3bln profit not a loss, see what he came up with ? This says a lot abt a person's integrity.
hopeful bro, if he doesn't know, he could at least 1) ask, 2) try to find out, and 3) dun post something wrong as fact. GIC's Citi deal was a good one from the start. I gave me chances several times by asking him to "explain in your own language". Had he actually spent any effort to understand what he posted, he would have immediately realized he made a mistake (abt GIC made a loss on Citi). Now even after I told him that deal is a 3bln profit not a loss, see what he came up with ? This says a lot abt a person's integrity.
HE IS A COWARD!
todate: investing citi is a profit making investment for GIC....
and AMK is toking about citi only....do not include UBS into the picture....
u like to mislead reader....using sep 09 article......tats explain ur character....simply irresponsible....luckily u r jus a voter
talk about misleading & irresponsible?
the govt under fire decided to show some official stats claiming HDB housing is affordable. however it was exposed bcos but by changing the base year the stats shows up a completely different picture lol.
unfortunately the person showing these stats is a minister.....
HE IS A COWARD!
i tend to think cowards are those who dare not compete fairly, and has to resort to gerrymandering, hiding in GRCs, and using defamation suits to fix competitors.
:)
By the way, what exactly is the Citi's deal that GIC went into? What are the terms & conditions? Can provide some pointers to the details? Thanks! :cheers1:
when the deal was entered, these were the key terms: (GIC most definitely was NOT buying Citi shares !)
1)it's a perpetual note, meaning GIC lends money to Citi, forever.
2)it has a coupon of 7% fixed, forever.
3)it's not callable for at least 7 yrs. meaning Citi cannot on his side choose to repay this loan for at least 7 ys. It's kind of guaranteed coupon for us for 7 yrs.
4) indexed on shares: on the other hand, after 5ys, if the share price is more than 130% when the deal is entered, Citi has a right to convert this loan to Citi shares. So we will get shares knowing there is at least 30% upside at conversion.
5) preferred status: related to 4, very important, it's protected by any share dilution/rights issue/etc. Meaning the nb shares is not fixed. If Citi wants to issue new shares to raise capital, and hence dilute the shareholding base, we are protected.
At that time, GIC was lending a life line to Citi. The deal is similar to Warren's Goldman deal, except Warren's coupon is higher BUT Goldman can redeem anytime (which it just did)
The real risk of this deal is whether you think the US gov will allow Citi to go bust. As long as Citi does not go under, this is a debt that Citi must pay, with high interest. If the US gov does allow it to go bust, then we are are at senior debt (i.e. 1st charge in your mortgage terminology), then we see how much it can recover. At the time the thinking was, no way US would allow Citi/AIG to fail. The risk is worth taking.
What happened subsequently was, when GIC sees market was recovering, it agreed Citi's request to convert that into common shares at a reasonable price, somewhere <$3. This is another risk taking since GIC loses the preferred status. But this allows GIC to quietly unwind the position in the market, which yields 1.6bln profit realized.
devilplate
25-03-11, 11:17
talk about misleading & irresponsible?
the govt under fire decided to show some official stats claiming HDB housing is affordable. however it was exposed bcos but by changing the base year the stats shows up a completely different picture lol.
unfortunately the person showing these stats is a minister.....
aiyo....
i got problem wif wenqing nia....
aiyo....
i got problem wif wenqing nia....
you should not have a problem with him, u should deal with the issues raised.
personal attacks don't make your arguments any stronger, only weaker.
devilplate
25-03-11, 11:53
you should not have a problem with him, u should deal with the issues raised.
personal attacks don't make your arguments any stronger, only weaker.
Wat toking u? I m pissed by wenqing for his attitude n behaviour shown in this forum..... I nvr interested in debate on political issues....
For eg. He said i always make assumption which he often does tat himself as well....
Burden lies on reader n not writer.... Shows how irresponsible he is....
He uses sept 09 article to mislead reader as well ....
I dun understand y u wana defend such a person????
devilplate
25-03-11, 12:01
It is perfectly fine to support the opposition.... There r a few like regulator, eng n u..... But how come i m fine with them but not with wenqing.... N its not only me....
Worse still, calling ppl ignorant..... Den u aso say i naive....Isnt tis personal attack?
Tats terrible!!!
he could have simply said: oh sorry I didn't know Citi was a profitable deal. Thanks GIC for making 3bln on Citi.
Instead , he did exactly what I said he would do: using other sensational postings to sidetrack. Even better, all he did was posting his internet search results.
Look, this is the quality of a person you are dealing with. It's worse than an admin assistant.
I have no interest to engage discussion with some one with this low level of integrity, knowledge, and expertise.
U know this Citi deal, even at the time when it was entered, was quite interesting. Had he been more competent, I would have loved to discuss with him the risk and payoff of the deal. Too bad he doesn't even understand, or even remotely attempt to understand, the meaning of senior debt, perpetual note, lock in callable window, redemption premium, preferred antidilution status, etc. All he can do is google search and read the headlines. :cool:
Sorry dude, I wrote off him completely. We are not at the same level.
Before other forumers jumping in and say "why dictate others". Well you judge yourself what kind of ppl you are dealing with here.
All right all right. I apologised.
All the media stories are fake.
You are the one who knows everything.
You cannot blame a laymen like us to rely and believe on media headlines right?
I do not see anything wrong with my integrity relying on searching internet for answers.
The entire world does not revolve around banking.
It is perfectly fine to support the opposition.... There r a few like regulator, eng n u..... But how come i m fine with them but not with wenqing.... N its not only me....
Worse still, calling ppl ignorant..... Den u aso say i naive....Isnt tis personal attack?
Tats terrible!!!
Yep, I am the one that is ignorant.
You are the one with brilliant mind who knows the facts only.
Lets have tea.
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep:
amk, I think majority of us are also ignorant what those terms means and their significance. And when we put together those terms in a deal, sure even more lost on how these terms interact with one another.
Googling those terms can give definitions, but the interplay of these terms,...:beats-me-man:. Not a roadsweeper but in agriculture.
amk, you work in investment banking?
These was what happen when investors lost their life savings to Minibonds.
They lost the money to word play and definition play even bankers themselves do not understand.
This was the reply of DBS relationship managers when the crisis broke, none of them fully understood what they were selling.
Regulators
25-03-11, 18:19
The government should be making money for the people and even if they do, it is a duty that should not be linked to how they get paid as singapore is not a private enterprise. The topic here is with regard to the disproportionate pay scale of mps and their job role. If all mps should pay them themselves exorbitantly just because they help singapore to bring in revenue, then they should also get sacked if they help singapore to lose money, shouldn't they? Why is it the situation in singapore that when economy is doing well, mps reward themselves handsomely but when times are bad our when they make bad decisions, they still stay where they are? If mps peg their salaries to ceos, they should also get fired like ceos, in fact moreso as they owe not just a company an explanation, but the whole population of singapore.
These was what happen when investors lost their life savings to Minibonds.
They lost the money to word play and definition play even bankers themselves do not understand.
This was the reply of DBS relationship managers when the crisis broke, none of them fully understood what they were selling.
The only word play is capital protected vs capital guaranteed.
I have the misconception that capital protected is the same as capital guaranteed. :) If I had known it was different, I would not have invested in it.
Pay tuition fee for assuming.
don't ASSUME as it will make an ASS of U and ME :>
I just wish they will donate to the poor and needy.
I just wish they will donate to the poor and needy.
Yes, my sentiments exactly, why raise a big debate abt raising $30 for the poor and needy every month, but yet do not bat an eyelid about a $1million increase per year for the president? How many poor and needy can this $1 million feed?
After reading the story about what westman posted about the poor old man who might be charged of assault due to protecting his one and only investment ie his food trolley and that the assuage of FT have likely taken his likelihood and his survival chances, my heart really goes out to him and my choice is clear now on who Im going to vote for this round.
All right all right. I apologised.
All the media stories are fake.
You are the one who knows everything.
You cannot blame a laymen like us to rely and believe on media headlines right?
I do not see anything wrong with my integrity relying on searching internet for answers.
The entire world does not revolve around banking.
Wow! How convenient isn't it? Simply push all your wrong accusations to you being a layman. C'mon, everyone is a `layman' as long as he is not a banker. And if you are not familiar with the details, you do not go around spreading untruths. The way you post and argue makes it seems like you know a lot more than others. And in the end, its just hearsay? What a joke?! And how dangerous!
I'm not sure how old are you? But I say again, either you have a hidden agenda or you are just plain gullible. Now for the citi issue, you rely all your understanding on just internet, desktop research. What about other peeves that you might have with the govt? How many were just based on your hearsay and how many were based on your own experiences?
I just came back from Europe. Portugal just lost their Prime Minster while UK just announced their budget. One thing that struck me in the respective leader's speech was political stability. The Portugal PM said due to opposition from other parties, he has to step down and will no longer be able to push through his austerity measures. As a result, the country will have a financial crisis due to the political mess. The saving grace is they have EU to save them. But we do not have this liberty at all.
Separately, in UK's Budget for Growth', the Chancellor spoke of the need for political stability so that financial policies can be implemented to stabilize the economy. Even a layman like me can understand that political instability WILL upset the economy. Look at Thailand. Ask around how much businesses has suffered due to their constant changing govt?
You even claim others who disagree with you as shallow. Now, does reading baseless, outdated internet reports and quoting from them makes you more critical and less shallow than others? I don't think so?
Now, I don't think all that the govt has done is perfect. But I'm not confident the opposition (current or the past) would have done much better if they were in the same situation.
Wow! How convenient isn't it? Simply push all your wrong accusations to you being a layman. C'mon, everyone is a `layman' as long as he is not a banker. And if you are not familiar with the details, you do not go around spreading untruths. The way you post and argue makes it seems like you know a lot more than others. And in the end, its just hearsay? What a joke?! And how dangerous!
I'm not sure how old are you? But I say again, either you have a hidden agenda or you are just plain gullible. Now for the citi issue, you rely all your understanding on just internet, desktop research. What about other peeves that you might have with the govt? How many were just based on your hearsay and how many were based on your own experiences?
I just came back from Europe. Portugal just lost their Prime Minster while UK just announced their budget. One thing that struck me in the respective leader's speech was political stability. The Portugal PM said due to opposition from other parties, he has to step down and will no longer be able to push through his austerity measures. As a result, the country will have a financial crisis due to the political mess. The saving grace is they have EU to save them. But we do not have this liberty at all.
Separately, in UK's Budget for Growth', the Chancellor spoke of the need for political stability so that financial policies can be implemented to stabilize the economy. Even a layman like me can understand that political instability WILL upset the economy. Look at Thailand. Ask around how much businesses has suffered due to their constant changing govt?
You even claim others who disagree with you as shallow. Now, does reading baseless, outdated internet reports and quoting from them makes you more critical and less shallow than others? I don't think so?
Now, I don't think all that the govt has done is perfect. But I'm not confident the opposition (current or the past) would have done much better if they were in the same situation.
Guess you do not understand sarcasm and those type that take everything at face value only.
If only a forumer is right and all the media reports are wrong all over the world about GIC and Temasek, then all of them should close down.
Since you say all the internet search and media reports are untrue then why don't you email them ?
I got no hidden agenda, I just base on facts and what is reported in mass media which you insist is untrue.
I find you like to start accusing, sidetrack and blabbering like machine gun when you cannot show anything else.
Maybe you also cannot handle the truth about your beloved party too but thats your right.
He says A and and I do an internet search and media reports all over the world shows B, let people decide who is more accurate.
CNBC David Faber: Temasek's loss of $4.9 billion dollars 'one of the worst investment'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t8-HyA6wvU
Wow! How convenient isn't it? Simply push all your wrong accusations to you being a layman. C'mon, everyone is a `layman' as long as he is not a banker. And if you are not familiar with the details, you do not go around spreading untruths. The way you post and argue makes it seems like you know a lot more than others. And in the end, its just hearsay? What a joke?! And how dangerous!
I'm not sure how old are you? But I say again, either you have a hidden agenda or you are just plain gullible. Now for the citi issue, you rely all your understanding on just internet, desktop research. What about other peeves that you might have with the govt? How many were just based on your hearsay and how many were based on your own experiences?
I just came back from Europe. Portugal just lost their Prime Minster while UK just announced their budget. One thing that struck me in the respective leader's speech was political stability. The Portugal PM said due to opposition from other parties, he has to step down and will no longer be able to push through his austerity measures. As a result, the country will have a financial crisis due to the political mess. The saving grace is they have EU to save them. But we do not have this liberty at all.
Separately, in UK's Budget for Growth', the Chancellor spoke of the need for political stability so that financial policies can be implemented to stabilize the economy. Even a layman like me can understand that political instability WILL upset the economy. Look at Thailand. Ask around how much businesses has suffered due to their constant changing govt?
You even claim others who disagree with you as shallow. Now, does reading baseless, outdated internet reports and quoting from them makes you more critical and less shallow than others? I don't think so?
Now, I don't think all that the govt has done is perfect. But I'm not confident the opposition (current or the past) would have done much better if they were in the same situation.
You keep harping on political instability and comparing with the worse and using this fear tactic. You are not wrong but it is overhyped.
Has 'political instability' stop any country from progressing and achieving higher standard of living ? Has the country collapsed ??
Why did Standard Chartered, Shell, ExxonMobil still bother to invest in political unstable Africa and not politically stable North Korea ?
Political instability is not create all and end all and not an excuse to remain in power.
Is there proof more opposition and PAP lose power = political instability ?
You mean when PAP took over as Opposition, Singapore became instable ?
Since you say opposition = instability, then all things equal, is US, Europe, Australia, South Korea, Taiwan suffering everyday from it ?
Singapore is constantly getting products from these 'instable' countries.
You should stay in China and North Korea then, it will be your paradise.
I did not say everyone is shallow who disagrees. Please do not put words in my mouth.
I showed evidence of shallowness in their arguments before I remarked anything.
Since you say all the media reports on Internet are outdated and untrue, why come this forum then ??
Those media reports I showed are from 2009 crisis, of course it is outdated compare to now.
Those losses are real whereas the profits pointed out by the forumer happen later but still less than losses.
Profits got bonuses but losses nobody is held accountable.
Get your facts right first.
You keep harping on political instability and comparing with the worse and using this fear tactic. You are not wrong but it is overhyped.
Has 'political instability' stop any country from progressing and achieving higher standard of living ? Has the country collapsed ??
Why did Standard Chartered, Shell, ExxonMobil still bother to invest in political unstable Africa and not politically stable North Korea ?
Political instability is not create all and end all and not an excuse to remain in power.
Is there proof more opposition and PAP lose power = political instability ?
You mean when PAP took over as Opposition, Singapore became instable ?
Since you say opposition = instability, then all things equal, is US, Europe, Australia, South Korea, Taiwan suffering everyday from it ?
Singapore is constantly getting products from these 'instable' countries.
You should stay in China and North Korea then, it will be your paradise.
I did not say everyone is shallow who disagrees. Please do not put words in my mouth.
I showed evidence of shallowness in their arguments before I remarked anything.
Since you say all the media reports on Internet are outdated and untrue, why come this forum then ??
Those media reports I showed are from 2009 crisis, of course it is outdated compare to now.
Those losses are real whereas the profits pointed out by the forumer happen later but still less than losses.
Profits got bonuses but losses nobody is held accountable.
Get your facts right first.
One of the greatest form of deception is to mix facts and lies in the same breath so as to create the impression the lies are facts as well.
Thus I wonder if you are plain ignorant or just trying to spread half-truths? When it comes to profits and loss, you look at current performance, not historical because it was unrealised and thus we DID NOT actually suffer any losses at all. On the contrary, the profits were realised and real.
And pls do not tell me you are being sarcastic. You were darn sure and kept quoting articles after articles that the govt made losses on the citi deal. But when others have pointed it out to you otherwise, you scorn at people and brush it off......its no wonder people like you have to resort to spreading lies and untruths even in property forums....after doing it at gadgets (hardwarezone) and CNA forums. Why not speak at Hong Lim Park? Its the proper venue and you will get greater publicity and reach.
I have said before and I will say again. each country is unique, you like to compare so much, why dun you just migrate and leave this country? And I have shown to you that Thailand is suffering due to their political mess. Instead, you ask me about Taiwan, Korea, Europe etc. How dubious again. I hate it when somebody is slimy like a snake. If not for the political mess, Thailand's economy would be doing a lot better now.
err.. did wenqing sensationalise with internet links n news report?
i think he merely provide these facts.. if we acknowledge that these reports r facts..
bottom line, those of us of join in this thread r discussing the disgusting payrise of our mps..
ya, disgusting to me..
$30 bread n butter money to poor n needy.. CRUSHED:eek:
millions raised to mps.. all sitting behind comfortably tiam tiam n falling asleep n thinking ho sei liao.. HUAT AH!! pui pui pui
al except opposition n sylvia lim..
u guys r not disappointed meh..
One of the greatest form of deception is to mix facts and lies in the same breath so as to create the impression the lies are facts as well.
Thus I wonder if you are plain ignorant or just trying to spread half-truths? When it comes to profits and loss, you look at current performance, not historical because it was unrealised and thus we DID NOT actually suffer any losses at all. On the contrary, the profits were realised and real.
And pls do not tell me you are being sarcastic. You were darn sure and kept quoting articles after articles that the govt made losses on the citi deal. But when others have pointed it out to you otherwise, you scorn at people and brush it off......its no wonder people like you have to resort to spreading lies and untruths even in property forums....after doing it at gadgets (hardwarezone) and CNA forums. Why not speak at Hong Lim Park? Its the proper venue and you will get greater publicity and reach.
I have said before and I will say again. each country is unique, you like to compare so much, why dun you just migrate and leave this country? And I have shown to you that Thailand is suffering due to their political mess. Instead, you ask me about Taiwan, Korea, Europe etc. How dubious again. I hate it when somebody is slimy like a snake. If not for the political mess, Thailand's economy would be doing a lot better now.
You are contradicting yourself.
If Internet is all fake and not true, stop coming this forum cause this forum is in Internet as well.
You are the one comparing and making sure you take the worse case to compare.
What is wrong with comparing with developed nations instead of undeveloped nations ?
MM Lee wrote a book from Third world to First world.
Singapore is 'first world' so we compare with first world nations. Compare apple with apple and not apple with orange.
Why compare = migrate and leave country ??
Are you asking Singapore government to migrate and leave country because they always like to compare with other countries to win arguments.
Other countries have GST on Water Tax so Singapore must have to. Tax on Tax, that is civil service reply. why I never see you use uniquely Singapore ?
Showing bad news about government means got hidden agenda ? Your own logic or ST's logic ?
I wonder whether you are working or not.
We have this thing call Financial Year (FY).
People get bonuses or resign base on performance for each FY, not base on how many FYs they collected.
If good FYs, they got huge bonuses, bad FYs, no need to cough out the huge bonuses before but also no accountability ?
Since you insist 2009 crisis, GIC and Temasek did not incur losses, please show some media reports.
If you want to count 2010 FY and if they make profits, maybe you can tell us the bonuses too.
You keep insisting nothing happen in 2009 and everything is profitable and everyone is in Wonderland.
Please show some media reports to justify.
I know GIC and Temasek got make profits but definitely not every year and not in 2009.
By the way, GIC and Temasek make profits so what is the result, Singaporeans gain from this and how ??
I think you are referring to this. Alot of capital outlay but small net gain each year.
Even Minister Tharman admitted to losses in 2009.
Temasek has made net gain of S$56b since March 2003
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/432341/1/.html
http://app.mfa.gov.sg/pr/read_content.asp?View,12815,
Temasek losses – Enough is enough
Leong Sze Hian
Both the Merrill and BoA losses came to light only after securities filings in other countries or when international news agencies reported them – and were not voluntarily disclosed by Temasek or the government.
“Temasek Holdings sold its stake in British banking giant Barclays in December and January, at an estimated loss of between 500 million (S$1.2 billion) and 600 million pounds, sources told the Straits Times”. (Straits Times, 4 June 2009)
This comes on the heels of Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew’s remarks in March 2009 when he said: “We’ll most probably stay with the financials… Eventually, it must recover. It is the circulation system of the world.” (Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLKY))
When asked to comment on the latest suspected losses, which was first reported by Reuters, a Temasek spokesman was quoted as having said, “We don’t comment on unsourced reports”.
This is akin to saying to Singaporeans that they are still not entitled to know about how much of their money has been lost once again.
The remark by Temasek’s spokesman is really a very weak excuse not to confirm or dismiss the report.
I think Singaporeans and our Members of Parliament (MP) should finally say “enough is enough” and demand that the government and Temasek give us straight answers and be accountable and transparent to Singaporeans.
Both the Merrill and BoA losses came to light only after securities filings in other countries or when international news agencies reported them – and were not voluntarily disclosed by Temasek or the government.
Earlier in March, the Minister Mentor revealed GIC’s losses to Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLKY) and not to Parliament which debated the issue a few weeks earlier.
Are there any other losses that Singaporeans still do not know about?
And should Singaporeans wait for international news agencies to reveal these?
Non-disclosure of losses between November to March
I refer to the report, “Temasek has made net gain of S$56b since March 2003″ (CNA, May 28).
The Finance Minister said that “even after taking into account the recent sharp decline, Temasek’s portfolio had still grown by S$56 bn over the course of the cycle.”
So, what this means is that Temasek’s investment portfolio gained S$114 bn from March 2003 to March 2008, and then lost S$58 bn between March 2008 and November 2008.
The key point to note is that the mark-to-market unrealized losses (including Merrill) are only until November 2008. What we do not know is how much it has lost from November 2008 to March 2009.
The minister explained this by saying that “the full year accounts to end-March 2009 have not been audited” and that “the picture should not be fundamentally different.”
He further said the sale of the Merrill/BoA investment would not have aggravated the results either. Still, Singaporeans would want to know the losses incurred, if any, for the period November 2008 to March 2009.
If the “sale of the Merrill/BoA investment would not have aggravated the results either”, why is it that the actual amount lost is still not disclosed to Singaporeans?
Inconsistent and arbitrary use of market cycle periods
I am somewhat puzzled by the apparent inconsistency that after 9 paragraphs of the Finance Minister’s statement in Parliament, which referred to a 5-year cycle, from paragraph 10 onwards, it started to refer to a 6-year market cycle instead.
“But while Temasek has performed better than many other large investors over this 6 year market cycle, it is not realistic to expect it to outperform in every cycle,” Mr Tharman had said.
“It is also not realistic to expect it to avoid losses on every individual investment, or losses on its overall portfolio when the markets go through sharp corrections.”
While that may be true, without a consistency in reporting of its performance over 1, 3, 5, 10, 20, 30 years, and since inception, how can one make a meaningful comparison with others?
Why does the minister arbitrarily use a 6-year market cycle for his evaluation, instead of the 5-year cycle he used earlier? In the final analysis, Singaporeans still do not know how much was lost in the Merrill investment.
And the how, why and who were involved in the decisions and processes leading to the loss!
If we don’t question how and why it happened, how do we learn the lessons to avoid a repeat of the Merrill/BoA saga?
This is the fundamental issue, which is an entirely different issue from how well Temasek has done over the last 6 years.
Read also: Temasek may have lost 800 million pounds on Barclays (http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/06/temasek-may-have-lost-800-million-pounds-on-barclays-reuters/) – Reuters —-
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/06/temasek-losses-%E2%80%93-enough-is-enough/
devilplate
26-03-11, 18:14
Wenqing just dun admit his mistake.... We only toking abt tat citi deal....den he start to bring in other articles.... Worse still.... Just say wat do citizens benefit if gic make profit..... Wenqing.... Poor thing.... Just let him win the arguement lor.... Hehe.... Give in to oldman ok mah.... Let him tok watever he wants as long its within coffeeshop thread... CheersX100!
Wenqing just dun admit his mistake.... We only toking abt tat citi deal....den he start to bring in other articles.... Worse still.... Just say wat do citizens benefit if gic make profit..... Wenqing.... Poor thing.... Just let him win the arguement lor.... Hehe.... Give in to oldman ok mah.... Let him tok watever he wants as long its within coffeeshop thread... CheersX100!
but you and I must admit, his database of articles critical of PAP government is huge. :rolleyes:
You are contradicting yourself.
If Internet is all fake and not true, stop coming this forum cause this forum is in Internet as well.
You are the one comparing and making sure you take the worse case to compare.
What is wrong with comparing with developed nations instead of undeveloped nations ?
MM Lee wrote a book from Third world to First world.
Singapore is 'first world' so we compare with first world nations. Compare apple with apple and not apple with orange.
Why compare = migrate and leave country ??
Are you asking Singapore government to migrate and leave country because they always like to compare with other countries to win arguments.
Other countries have GST on Water Tax so Singapore must have to. Tax on Tax, that is civil service reply. why I never see you use uniquely Singapore ?
Showing bad news about government means got hidden agenda ? Your own logic or ST's logic ?
I wonder whether you are working or not.
We have this thing call Financial Year (FY).
People get bonuses or resign base on performance for each FY, not base on how many FYs they collected.
If good FYs, they got huge bonuses, bad FYs, no need to cough out the huge bonuses before but also no accountability ?
Since you insist 2009 crisis, GIC and Temasek did not incur losses, please show some media reports.
If you want to count 2010 FY and if they make profits, maybe you can tell us the bonuses too.
You keep insisting nothing happen in 2009 and everything is profitable and everyone is in Wonderland.
Please show some media reports to justify.
I know GIC and Temasek got make profits but definitely not every year and not in 2009.
By the way, GIC and Temasek make profits so what is the result, Singaporeans gain from this and how ??
I think you are referring to this. Alot of capital outlay but small net gain each year.
Even Minister Tharman admitted to losses in 2009.
You post too much rubbish so I will be selective in answering those glaring mistakes.
First, I come to this forum is to update myself of ppty news and developments. That is until you mistook this for TOC, CNA or Sammyboy. Ok, you want to talk politics, no issue, i dun really care coz I can just ignore since I dun like to talk politics anyway. BUT, when you start spreading lies and misleading others with outdated internet articles and half truths, I just feel I have to address some of these nonsense you are spreading even if it takes away my precious time reading other ppty stuff in other parts of this forum.
Now, if you mention other realised losses like the Shin Corp deal in Thailand, I will not hve anything to say. BUT, you chose the wrong example :D. You chose the Citi deal!! Why? I have no idea, haha. It only serves to expose your lack of financial knowledge and ALSO that most, if not all of your criticisms arises from your reading of internet articles and taking them as gospel truth. Like I said, you are either darn gullible of you have an axe to grind. And before you continue to insist that the citi deal was loss making, let me tell you it will only make a fool out of yourself. But of coz, IF you still cannot differentiate the difference between realised and unrealised losses, I urge you to talk to somebody with basic financial knowledge before posting all these nonsense again.
And i didnt take the worst case vs us. If I did, I would have chosen countries in Africa, parts of South East Asia or even some European countries like the PIGS nations. Some of these countries, despite being blessed with abundance of natural resources like black gold, natural gas etc but due to weak political and/ or unstable political environment, they were unable to ensure their people are given basic education, shelter, food, jobs (not even road sweeping jobs coz they dun even have roads to begin with except for dusty tracks). Now tell me, does Singapore enjoy any natural resources? Are we considered rich (financially)?
I dun think its too far off to compare Singapore and Thailand.
And finally, not all things in the internet are fake or false. But what you have posted on Citi are definitely lies and untruths. And by lumping it together with other issues, you just make yourself an easy target to be exposed. As such, you have also exposed your lack of creditability AND integrity for that matter.
Wenqing dont mind sharing ah, after u exposed PAP so many "ugly truth", what are some of your plans ahead to help ignorant Singaporeans ?
You post too much rubbish so I will be selective in answering those glaring mistakes.
First, I come to this forum is to update myself of ppty news and developments. That is until you mistook this for TOC, CNA or Sammyboy. Ok, you want to talk politics, no issue, i dun really care coz I can just ignore since I dun like to talk politics anyway. BUT, when you start spreading lies and misleading others with outdated internet articles and half truths, I just feel I have to address some of these nonsense you are spreading even if it takes away my precious time reading other ppty stuff in other parts of this forum.
Now, if you mention other realised losses like the Shin Corp deal in Thailand, I will not hve anything to say. BUT, you chose the wrong example :D. You chose the Citi deal!! Why? I have no idea, haha. It only serves to expose your lack of financial knowledge and ALSO that most, if not all of your criticisms arises from your reading of internet articles and taking them as gospel truth. Like I said, you are either darn gullible of you have an axe to grind. And before you continue to insist that the citi deal was loss making, let me tell you it will only make a fool out of yourself. But of coz, IF you still cannot differentiate the difference between realised and unrealised losses, I urge you to talk to somebody with basic financial knowledge before posting all these nonsense again.
And i didnt take the worst case vs us. If I did, I would have chosen countries in Africa, parts of South East Asia or even some European countries like the PIGS nations. Some of these countries, despite being blessed with abundance of natural resources like black gold, natural gas etc but due to weak political and/ or unstable political environment, they were unable to ensure their people are given basic education, shelter, food, jobs (not even road sweeping jobs coz they dun even have roads to begin with except for dusty tracks). Now tell me, does Singapore enjoy any natural resources? Are we considered rich (financially)?
I dun think its too far off to compare Singapore and Thailand.
And finally, not all things in the internet are fake or false. But what you have posted on Citi are definitely lies and untruths. And by lumping it together with other issues, you just make yourself an easy target to be exposed. As such, you have also exposed your lack of creditability AND integrity for that matter.
Firstly, I did not use Citi as example, someone else did if you bother to read at all.
Next, I did not lump all together, the events and media did as it just so happen it all happen in 2009.
You do not want to read the media articles that prove you wrong but never show reports to prove you right. How to believe you ?
Why don't you email all the media companies and tell them their reports on Temasek and GIC is rubbish as you describe it.
You tend to use only worse examples to compare and win arguments and now you use no natural resources.
But you never add good examples like :
Singapore already have 'natural resources' like no natural disasters,
small in size,
deep harbour,
good geographical location for shipping,
no four seasons,
docile population etc which prompt even Raffles to exchange Indonesia for Singapore and Malaya.
Myanmar is stable politically and plenty of natural resources but why no investments ?
Your method of argument is stuck in 1980s.
but you and I must admit, his database of articles critical of PAP government is huge. :rolleyes:
Just do simple internet googling and you can find quotes from Ministers everywhere and media articles.
Yes, googling is a new term and is a skill.
This is why Google share prices remain strong and why Internet revolutionise authoritarian politics.
If ST and CNA do not keep score for Singapores then Internet will help Singaporeans to remember.
Whether Citigroup is profit or loss in the end remains to be seen.
I also hope it ends up as profit too to save further embarassment.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/03/04/idUSLKY
GIC assets slide 25 pct, "too early" buying banks
Lee Kuan Yew says GIC "too early" buying into global banks
* Equity holdings trimmed to 45-50 percent
* GIC sticking with financials, looking at property
* Singapore GDP shrinking 8 percent becoming a probability
By Kevin Lim (http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=kevin.lim&) and Neil Chatterjee
SINGAPORE, March 4 (Reuters) - Singapore's top wealth fund GIC is looking at investing in property and private equity, after rushing into global banks "too early" and seeing its multi-billion dollar portfolio slide 25 percent from its peak.
Lee Kuan Yew, chairman of GIC, one of the world's top wealth funds, told Reuters on Wednesday he saw the healthcare sector as being resilient to the downturn, but he said the financial sector would recover.
"We'll most probably stay with the financials," Lee said in an interview. "Eventually, it must recover. It is the circulation system of the world."
Prime minister of Singapore from 1959 to 1990, Lee said GIC can weather the storm for 10 years if necessary but the city-state's economy could shrink 8 percent this year as demand for its exports slides.
Lee said GIC bought "too early" into global banks such as Citigroup (C.N (http://forums.condosingapore.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=C.N)) and UBS (UBSN.VX (http://forums.condosingapore.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=UBSN.VX)), which were both hammered by the financial meltdown that quickened in the second half of 2008.
"How could we have known this was the extent of the damage? You look at all the big-name banks that have gone down, misjudged the situation, ruined their careers," he said.
"When the market fell, we went into UBS and Citi. But we went in too early. That is part of the ride."
GIC last week converted its $6.88 billion worth of Citigroup preference shares into common stock at a price of S$3.25 a share to shore up the embattled U.S. lender, realising in the process a loss of around half its investment.
Analysts estimated that the value of the fund was around $300 billion a year ago, although GIC has only said it manages well over $100 billion. For a factbox on GIC, see [ID:nGICFACTBO].
"A 25 percent decline would probably suggest an out-performance against the global markets," said Song Seng Wun, economist at Malaysian bank CIMB in Singapore.
The MSCI World Index .MIWD00000PUS reached a peak in November 2007 and has fallen almost 60 percent since then. GIC will have been shielded by its high bond and cash holdings.
Singapore's other wealth fund, Temasek [TEM.UL], also piled into Western banks such as Merrill Lynch, now part of Bank of America (BAC.N (http://forums.condosingapore.com/finance/stocks/overview?symbol=BAC.N)). Its portfolio shrank 31 percent -- or by S$58 billion ($37.37 billion) -- in the eight months to end-November.
http://www.asiaone.com/Business/News/My+Money/Story/A1Story20090301-125407.html
GIC cuts loss in one fell swop http://www.asiaone.com/a1media/site/common/blank.gifBy Conrad Tan
THE Government of Singapore Investment Corp (GIC) will convert all its preferred shares in Citigroup into common stock to cut its losses.
The swop will give it an 11.1 per cent stake in the troubled US bank, which yesterday announced a sweeping plan to boost its common equity base.
The conversion will pare GIC's paper loss on its original US$6.88 billion investment in Citi from 80 per cent or US$5.5 billion to 24 per cent, or US$1.67 billion, based on Thursday's closing price of US$2.46 for Citi shares.
Separately, Citi said yesterday that it plans to swop up to US$52.5 billion of its preferred stock, including US$25 billion of the US$45 billion held by the US government, for ordinary shares.
Citi also recorded a massive US$10 billion charge for impairment of goodwill and other intangible assets in the fourth quarter, resulting in an additional net loss of US$9 billion for the final three months of last year.
For GIC, the decision to convert its shares appears to have been the lesser of two unpalatable choices.
Citi yesterday suspended dividend payments on its preferred shares as well as common stock, which means that GIC would lose the 7 per cent annual dividend that it has been receiving if it chose not to convert its holdings.
The conversion will make GIC the second-biggest shareholder in Citi with a stake of about 11 per cent, compared to about 4 per cent at the time of its original investment.
The US government will be Citi's largest shareholder, owning 36-38 per cent of Citi's common equity. The final stakes will depend on how many investors in the publicly held tranche of Citi's preferred stock decide to participate in the share conversion.
One thing is certain: Existing ordinary shareholders will suffer massive dilution of more than 70 per cent. Citi shares plunged 37 per cent to US$1.55 at the start of US trading yesterday after the bank's announcement.
At that price, GIC's unrealised loss on its Citi investment would be US$3.6 billion.
The profitability of US banks 'is likely to be impaired in the next two years', said Ng Kok Song, GIC's group chief investment officer in a statement.
'GIC's view is that with this latest move, Citigroup's capacity to weather the severe economic downturn will be strengthened.'
Before yesterday's announcement, the market value of the preferred shares held by GIC had already slumped 80 per cent to just US$1.376 billion since its initial investment in Citi, as mounting losses made it less likely that the bank would be able to keep up its dividend payments.
The US government, GIC and other investors that bought Citi preferred stock alongside GIC in January last year will receive common stock at a price of US$3.25 a share. Those investors, including Saudi Arabia's Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal, have agreed to the exchange, said Citi.
At the conversion price of US$3.25, GIC will get some 2.12 billion common shares in exchange for its US$6.88 billion in preferred stock. Based on Thursday's closing price of US$2.46 a share, GIC's stake after conversion is worth US$5.21 billion.
That puts GIC's unrealised loss on its original US$6.88 billion investment in Citi at US$1.67 billion after the conversion, compared to US$5.5 billion before.
Under the original terms of GIC's investment in Citi, it would have had to pay a much higher conversion price of US$26.35 for each common share, GIC said. That would have translated into a stake of just 261.1 million shares, worth a mere US$642 million at Thursday's closing price for Citi shares.
But the conversion also means that GIC will now bear greater risk than before, as an ordinary shareholder. It also gives up for good the 7 per cent annual dividend that it previously earned on its preferred shares.
Citi chief executive Vikram Pandit said that the conversion plan had just 'one goal' - to increase the bank's tangible common equity or TCE.
Converting its preferred shares into ordinary equity will boost its TCE ratio - the focus of stress tests by US regulators starting this week as a key measure of the bank's ability to withstand further losses if the recession is worse than expected.
Ordinary shareholders are the first to suffer any losses, so common equity is seen as the highest quality of capital that a bank holds, and the size of a bank's common equity base relative to its assets is considered the purest measure of its buffer against losses.
The hope is that by raising its TCE ratio, Citi will be able to weather the worst recession that the US has seen in decades. The plan is expected to increase its TCE as a proportion of its risk-weighted assets from less than 3 per cent now to 7.9 per cent.
Crucially, it does so without the need to inject more money from the public purse.
That makes it unnecessary for the US government to seek the approval of lawmakers for more funds amid growing public fury over the use of taxpayers' money to bail out large banks.
But the US government could still inject more capital into Citi - in the form of mandatory convertible preferred shares - if the stress tests show that the bank's capital cushion still needs bolstering. That would mean further dilution for ordinary shareholders, including GIC, when the shares are eventually converted to common stock.
'As a shareholder, GIC supports the initiative by Citigroup and the US government to strengthen the quality of the bank's capital base in view of the challenging economic environment,' GIC said in a statement.
This article was first published in The Business Times (http://www.businesstimes.com.sg/).
Yep, looks like GIC made 1.6 billion paper profit on paper from Citi.
Great news, we should give record bonuses to people in GIC and increase Minister pay for a fine work done.
Can some expert here tell us the eventual result whether it is net gain or net loss after all the buying and selling ??
I only remember media headlines.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aalfuzelYF94
Singapore’s GIC Pares Citigroup Stake to Below 5% (Update2)
Sept. 22 (Bloomberg) -- The Singapore government pared its stake in Citigroup Inc. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=C:US) to less than 5 percent, realizing a $1.6 billion profit as the city-state’s investment companies reduce holdings in European and U.S. banks.
Government of Singapore Investment Corp. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=GIC:SP) sold the stock after converting preferred shares in the New York-based bank into a more than 9 percent common-equity stake, it said in a statement. The company, manager of more than $100 billion of foreign- exchange reserves, also has a $1.6 billion paper profit on its remaining holding.
Citigroup shares have surged more than fourfold since falling below $1 on March 5, as the U.S. economy began to show signs of emerging from its deepest postwar recession.
GIC’s Citigroup bet fared better than those of Temasek Holdings Pte (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=TMSK:SP), Singapore’s smaller investment company, which sold its stakes in Bank of America Corp. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BAC:US) and Barclays Plc (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=BARC:LN) at a loss.
“There is clear evidence that the financial stimulus by central banks are bearing fruit,” said Singapore-based Roger Groebli (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Roger%0AGroebli&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1), head of financial market analysis at LGT Capital Management, which oversees about $75 billion in assets.
Citigroup (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=C:US)shares traded in Frankfurt gained 2.3 percent to 3.07 euros as of 12:08 p.m. local time.
GIC exchanged $6.88 billion of convertible preferred stock (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=C:US)for Citigroup common shares at $3.25 apiece on Sept. 11, together with the U.S. government and other investors. GIC ended up with a stake of more than 9 percent in Citigroup following the exchange.
‘Too Early’
“This was the level GIC had intended when it invested in Citigroup through the convertible security,” GIC said. A “stake below 5 percent reflects GIC’s goals and desire to be a portfolio investor” after reducing its holding through open market sales, the company said.
GIC said it remains committed to its $18 billion of investments in Citigroup and UBS AG (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=UBSN:VX). New York-based Citigroup, the largest U.S. bank by assets, said in January 2008 it was getting $14.5 billion from investors including GIC.
The overall portfolio value of the foreign-exchange reserve manager fell about 25 percent between October 2007 and December 2008, Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Tharman+Shanmugaratnam&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) said in March. GIC bought stakes in UBS and Citigroup “too early,” the Straits Times reported on March 5, citing Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Lee+Kuan+Yew&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1).
GIC said last month it didn’t take part in the placement of 6 billion Swiss franc ($5.9 billion) of UBS shares sold by the Swiss government, adding that it maintains its “confidence in the long-term prospect” of the Zurich-based bank.
Temasek reported last week a 66 percent drop in profit in the 12 months to March 31 on losses from the sale of its stakes in Bank of America and Barclays, part of S$16 billion ($11.3 billion) of divestments last fiscal year.
To contact the reporter on this story: Netty Ismail (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Netty+Ismail&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1) in Singapore
[email protected] (
[email protected]).
To contact the editor responsible for this story: Andreea Papuc at
[email protected] (
[email protected])
rattydrama
27-03-11, 01:20
seriously if you think that the government aka ministers are doing a lousy job ... get yourself into that position and make the difference.
they are smart however if information and data are inaccurate, it can be a bad decision cos of incomplete picture captured.
not all are bad and certaintly there are free riders. Health Minister, so far that I see, is quite good.
seriously if you think that the government aka ministers are doing a lousy job ... get yourself into that position and make the difference.
they are smart however if information and data are inaccurate, it can be a bad decision cos of incomplete picture captured.
not all are bad and certaintly there are free riders. Health Minister, so far that I see, is quite good.
I don't think so.
Health costs are expensive and mercenary these days and more people reluctant to get medical services due to costs.
My doctor friend complain to me even though he is part of system but these days doctors and nurses are doing sales too like recommending unnecessary follow up treatments, health packages, making cold calls etc
I see private and public hospitals hiring cheaper foreign doctors and foreign nurses but did not translate to cheaper medical care but price went up instead.
My friend could stay in Tan Tock Seng for 2 months in the 1980s until full recovery and his father is just an average door-to-door salesman but could still afford the bill.
Now, same hospital, same class ward, his grandfather could only stay 2 weeks before hospital said not enough beds. By then, his bill reach thousands already.
It is good to have First world services in health and legal but if too expensive to use for average Singaporean, it defeats the purpose then as only the wealthy can access medical and legal systems.
http://singaporealternatives.blogspot.com/2010/03/sorry-no-enough-minister-khaw.html
http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/bed-crunch-continues-even-as-new-hospital-opens/
Bed crunch continues even as new hospital opens (http://yawningbread.wordpress.com/2010/07/28/bed-crunch-continues-even-as-new-hospital-opens/)
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/278291/1/.html
Khaw: Treat hospital bed shortage with care
SINGAPORE: The current high occupancy rate at some public hospital is stressing doctors to discharge their patients, admitted Health Minister Khaw Boon Wan yesterday.
Occupancy has hit highs of more than 90 per cent for some hospitals recently, above Mr Khaw’s ideal of 85 per cent. “When you run at over 90 per cent, it’s very stressful,” said the Health Minister, who was the chief executive of several hospitals from 1985 to 1992.
rattydrama
27-03-11, 02:14
he inherited the legacy system and its not easy to change a system without jeopardising the rest. There is a pap philosophy regarding health care which most of us like yourself disagree - the charges from the specialist are extremely high.
He did his job within his means and at micro level.
Why bother to argue with this clown? He is not satisfied with very minister. He adore only the opposition. A party that know how to ask the big why with no solution. Pity this old man, if I were him I will enjoy the countdown days.......
rattydrama
27-03-11, 02:39
if argue too much into politics scare this forum will shut down again... :simmering: ..I think this is by far the best property forum in SG.:spliff:
Why bother to argue with this clown? He is not satisfied with very minister. He adore only the opposition. A party that know how to ask the big why with no solution. Pity this old man, if I were him I will enjoy the countdown days.......
Sigh,it is sad you resort to name callings and personal attacks when you have nothing to debate about.
Truly sad.
if argue too much into politics scare this forum will shut down again... :simmering: ..I think this is by far the best property forum in SG.:spliff:
Hey bro, it is not my intention to argue with you who is right or wrong but I do have right to disagree with your observations.
Besides, my impressions are base on media articles and people sharing their experiences.
Politics is current affairs which affects our daily lives, we cannot avoid.
If you find the healthcare system good, so be it. I find it different though.
It is First World no doubt but cost has become a barrier to access which is as good as not having any health system.
I just find the healthcare system becoming more expensive, mercenary, cold and quality dropped compare to 80s - 90s. Days were good then.
I went a public hospital recently and got a Filipino doctor attended to me, he was searching for diagnosis on the internet. :eek: :eek:
I went a public hospital recently and got a Filipino doctor attended to me, he was searching for diagnosis on the internet. :eek: :eek:
are u kidding me?
if argue too much into politics scare this forum will shut down again... :simmering: ..I think this is by far the best property forum in SG.:spliff:
actually this guy has alot of data which can make people sit up and think...time has changed with internet...:2cents:
actually this guy has alot of data which can make people sit up and think...time has changed with internet...:2cents:
Found this
Singapore Gov't Fund Notches $33B Loss - Feb 19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uoi8YWZvELU&feature=related
Funny.
Hitler Slams Temasek and Ho Ching
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7skdIMzVJPw
actually this guy has alot of data which can make people sit up and think...time has changed with internet...:2cents:
Without Internet, PAP can still cruise through with their gaffes like in the 1980s.
Regulators
30-04-11, 02:26
with the internet, citizens are more well-informed and less likely to get hookwinked by the MIW. I am sick and tired of looking at the pro-PAP media coverages of the rally, so I go strait to the internet when i want to hear the opposition rally speeches
All the MIW bashing here and in internet are useless and a waste of time. Despite 20,000+ people attending WP rally vs 500+ (or whatever) for PAP, PAP will still control the govt with at least 80-7 seats, but more likely 86-1. :beats-me-man:
devilplate
30-04-11, 09:03
All the MIW bashing here and in internet are useless and a waste of time. Despite 20,000+ people attending WP rally vs 500+ (or whatever) for PAP, PAP will still control the govt with at least 80-7 seats, but more likely 86-1. :beats-me-man:
i wonder how many out of the 20k+ ppl r die hard OPP supporters?
i gave WP a chance by attending their rally....but all i hear is 1st world parliament and fearmongering
I went a public hospital recently and got a Filipino doctor attended to me, he was searching for diagnosis on the internet. :eek: :eek:
Sure or not? Probably just an attendant entering your details into the electronic records.
One should do a survey at MBS and RWS to assess the % of foreign workers/FTs.
kingkong1984
30-04-11, 09:40
Sure or not? Probably just an attendant entering your details into the electronic records.
U must ask him on his paper qualifications and state of mkind after the medications.
Sometimes it's hallucinations. What's wrong with the doc's nationality if they can do their job? Better to have a doc than a maid here right?
i wonder how many out of the 20k+ ppl r die hard OPP supporters?
i gave WP a chance by attending their rally....but all i hear is 1st world parliament and fearmongering
goh chok tong made a very good statement. "1st rated government is better than 1st world parliament".....1st rated govt deliver result, 1st world parliament only talk and talk and talk and ask and ask and ask.....
goh chok tong made a very good statement. "1st rated government is better than 1st world parliament".....1st rated govt deliver result, 1st world parliament only talk and talk and talk and ask and ask and ask.....
Bro, can you offer just one example what thing does not required redundancy plan?
For cars, spare tyre
For health, insurance
For education, tuition
For parliament?
It is rather obvious for a MP turns PM and now the SM to point this out. Opp will always ask. You should see the threatening statement made by MM in today's ST. He is desperate as he might lose a few Ministers!
goh chok tong made a very good statement. "1st rated government is better than 1st world parliament".....1st rated govt deliver result, 1st world parliament only talk and talk and talk and ask and ask and ask.....
Bro, can you offer just one example what thing does not required redundancy plan?
For cars, spare tyre
For health, insurance
For education, tuition
For parliament?
For parliament? Good govt tat deliver. if opp is needed, the opp must be strong enough to take over anytime. if they are not ready forget it
See. U only go to their oppn rally but not the PAP rally for comparison. It's always easier to scrutinize oppn when u have doubtful impression first in your mind. U must be objective to hear opinions from both sides.. Some of pap candidates r not better either! But the point is why these people can just take free rides n get into parliament so easily but oppn candidates have to fight very hard n yet can't get in.
i wonder how many out of the 20k+ ppl r die hard OPP supporters?
i gave WP a chance by attending their rally....but all i hear is 1st world parliament and fearmongering
For parliament? Good govt tat deliver. if opp is needed, the opp must be strong enough to take over anytime. if they are not ready forget it
Good point from u.:)
I would like to build on from there...
1) when do you buy insurance?
During good health or when you are terminally ill(provided you can still find a insurance company to accept your case)
2) if we dun't nurture a good opposition today... Mind to share when will be a good time?
Rome wasn't built in 1 day n oppn also recognize that they r not ready to take over. I gathered that most people still want the incumbent to be government but very unhappy with some of the policies such as ministers' salaries, multiple-seat GRC et...but have no way to stop it:eek: oppn wanted to be stopper for these policies. Obviously, still long way to achieve that:rolleyes:
Obviously, the reasons given by government r still not very convincing to justify for the ministers's pay n GRC. If u have unpopular policies, u have to prepare for scrutinies.....r u convinced?:p
For parliament? Good govt tat deliver. if opp is needed, the opp must be strong enough to take over anytime. if they are not ready forget it
For parliament? Good govt tat deliver. if opp is needed, the opp must be strong enough to take over anytime. if they are not ready forget it
Good point from u.:)
I would like to build on from there...
1) when do you buy insurance?
During good health or when you are terminally ill(provided you can still find a insurance company to accept your case)
2) if we dun't nurture a good opposition today... Mind to share when will be a good time?
Regulators
30-04-11, 11:55
Let me build on further. We support the opposition to create a voice for us in parliament and to create a balanced parliament but it doesn't mean we do not support the eventual government. We get the opposition in to help us spk up, not to cause a rebellion. Lky was also once an opposition member so it is wrong to think that nothing good comes out of the opposition
Good point from u.:)
I would like to build on from there...
1) when do you buy insurance?
During good health or when you are terminally ill(provided you can still find a insurance company to accept your case)
2) if we dun't nurture a good opposition today... Mind to share when will be a good time?
Let me build on further. We support the opposition to create a voice for us in parliament and to create a balanced parliament but it doesn't mean we do not support the eventual government. We get the opposition in to help us spk up, not to cause a rebellion. Lky was also once an opposition member so it is wrong to think that nothing good comes out of the opposition
I agree. There are plenty here who dare not vote the opp for fear of their property price going down - but that does not solve the fundamental problem.
Let me build on further. We support the opposition to create a voice for us in parliament and to create a balanced parliament but it doesn't mean we do not support the eventual government. We get the opposition in to help us spk up, not to cause a rebellion. Lky was also once an opposition member so it is wrong to think that nothing good comes out of the opposition
Thanks Regulator to the continual effort. ;)
Bro AY123, opposition is not necessarily not able objection for the sake of objection.
With more OPP in, garment have to scrunitise their own plan before putting forward to the parliament for discussion before enacting into policies and laws. By doing so, PAP garment will be forced to review very carefully else they will be judged badly.
Dun't you see many laws and policies (stupid in some senses) were passed without much debating. Evidently, Opp can aids to prevent group think among PAP's leaders (Casino is a good example)...
I agree. There are plenty here who dare not vote the opp for fear of their property price going down - but that does not solve the fundamental problem.
Bro, I can assured you voting is confidential as I know the process VERY well.
Bro, I can assured you voting is confidential as I know the process VERY well.
OK but that's not what I meant - I meant that if opp win and carries out their plan of tying HDB prices to median household income some are worried their prop investments may crash
Actually the converse is true - bubbles will disappear, fundamentals stronger and better appreciation of prices in the long run...
devilplate
30-04-11, 12:28
See. U only go to their oppn rally but not the PAP rally for comparison. It's always easier to scrutinize oppn when u have doubtful impression first in your mind. U must be objective to hear opinions from both sides.. Some of pap candidates r not better either! But the point is why these people can just take free rides n get into parliament so easily but oppn candidates have to fight very hard n yet can't get in.
i wrote my part of the story about my rally experience oredi
went to PAP rally first....no crowd, no atmosphere, boring speaker....so i jumpship to WP rally....
life is always unfair....u goto job interview....ppl see ur CV/resume first....if u CV/resume not gd....u dun even hf the chance for an interview!
so for the opposition to win votes....very naturally we will scrutinise....nothing wrong about it since they got no track record so to speak....BUT they r given a chance for an interview and they SHOULD make full use of it to impress the voters out there.
i am not telling anybody not even to listen to their rally.....i believe in giving every1 a chance.....but u nid to convince me to win my vote
devilplate
30-04-11, 12:33
Rome wasn't built in 1 day n oppn also recognize that they r not ready to take over. I gathered that most people still want the incumbent to be government but very unhappy with some of the policies such as ministers' salaries, multiple-seat GRC et...but have no way to stop it:eek: oppn wanted to be stopper for these policies. Obviously, still long way to achieve that:rolleyes:
Obviously, the reasons given by government r still not very convincing to justify for the ministers's pay n GRC. If u have unpopular policies, u have to prepare for scrutinies.....r u convinced?:p
blame who?
i mentioned so many times oredi....bcoz voting is SECRET!!!
its not bcoz humans r cowards or smthing....if we can calibrate the election result.....i am sure the opposition will get at least 1 GRC or even 1/3 seats:D
I hope there is no herd mentality just like purchase of property or people join longer queue at a hawker centre becos they think it must be good. Use the brain.
i wrote my part of the story about my rally experience oredi
went to PAP rally first....no crowd, no atmosphere, boring speaker....so i jumpship to WP rally....
life is always unfair....u goto job interview....ppl see ur CV/resume first....if u CV/resume not gd....u dun even hf the chance for an interview!
so for the opposition to win votes....very naturally we will scrutinise....nothing wrong about it since they got no track record so to speak....BUT they r given a chance for an interview and they SHOULD make full use of it to impress the voters out there.
i am not telling anybody not even to listen to their rally.....i believe in giving every1 a chance.....but u nid to convince me to win my vote
devilplate
30-04-11, 12:39
I agree. There are plenty here who dare not vote the opp for fear of their property price going down - but that does not solve the fundamental problem.
i repeat again!!!
not coward but due to the fact VOTING IS SECRET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we can even do a poll....i am sure many wanted to hf 1 OPP GRC or even 1/3 seats....BUT nobody wants 5-82!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so how r we going to calibrate our votes to achieve our desired outcome?!?!?!?!
The worst are those everyday complain what pap this pap that, cannot take pap lah bla bla bla....then in the end still vote pap.
:doh:
i repeat again!!!
not coward but due to the fact VOTING IS SECRET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we can even do a poll....i am sure many wanted to hf 1 OPP GRC or even 1/3 seats....BUT nobody wants 5-82!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
so how r we going to calibrate our votes to achieve our desired outcome?!?!?!?!
Relax can? Read my 2nd post above :)
Bro, I can assured you voting is confidential as I know the process VERY well.
what happened during the 6 months in the Vault? Any person to monitor?
You didnt respond to my request last time. And the articles about about seals,tags, locks, did you read it?
devilplate
30-04-11, 13:25
OK but that's not what I meant - I meant that if opp win and carries out their plan of tying HDB prices to median household income some are worried their prop investments may crash
Actually the converse is true - bubbles will disappear, fundamentals stronger and better appreciation of prices in the long run...
wah piang...u still tink tying HDB bto flats px to median will work?? IT WUN.....i expalined so many times oredi!!:doh: :doh: :doh:
we nid a more balanced solution.....:)
what happened during the 6 months in the Vault? Any person to monitor?
You didnt respond to my request last time. And the articles about about seals,tags, locks, did you read it?
I tot I've response?
Sorri if I've not...
I'm very familiar in Polling and Counting.
From WP's website...
Voting and Ballot Secrecy
Have you heard people say that your vote is not secret? The short answer is that individual votes cannot be traced, unless an order of court is obtained under very specific circumstances.
http://wp.sg/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/yvis.1-145x300.jpg (http://wp.sg/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/yvis.1.jpg)
Below are some frequently asked questions about the voting process.
Q: Why does the election official call out my name and voter number at the polling station before giving me the ballot paper? I find it unsettling.
A: This is required under the Parliament Elections Act. Calling out you name and number enables the representatives of political parties at the polling station to verify and cross out your name on their registers. This is a transparent process to help both the ruling and opposition parties in 2 ways – to check against double-voting by any voter, and to tally the total number of votes and the number of ballot papers issued out at the close of voting.
Q: Why must the ballot papers have serial numbers?
A: This is a good way to guard against election fraud such as bringing counterfeit ballot papers into the polling station, vote impersonation or basing ballot papers which have been marked by others. We are not the only country in the world to have ballot papers numbered.
Q: After I have cast my vote, what happens to it?
A: After the close of polls at 8 pm, the votes are sealed and moved to the counting centres where they will be counted by civil servants from different departments in the presence of the candidates and agents from both ruling party and opposition. Once counted, the votes, together with all the relevant records, the stubs of the ballot papers as well as unused ballot papers are sealed and transferred to the vault at the Supreme Court where they are kept for at least 6 months. The votes cannot be retrieved unless a court order is obtained on the ground of election fraud.
According to the Elections Department website, no court order has been issued to retrieve votes since Singapore conducted elections in 1948.
At the end of 6 months, the sealed votes and records will be transferred to an incineration plant for destruction. The whole procedure is witnessed by candidates/agents from all parties. The Workers’ Party has been present and has found the seals on the votes and records intact. The Workers’ Party is satisfied about voting secrecy.
Q: After the election, politicians started saying that certain communities / blocks supported the ruling party or the opposition party. This shows that the votes are not secret.
A: Nobody knows how each individual voted. Each polling station serves about 10-20 blocks of flats and/or a few landed housing estates. Since the counting of votes is done by polling stations, it is possible to know the overall results of each polling station, which consists of a few thousand votes. The voting results, sorted by polling stations, are accessible to all political parties contesting in that constituency. It is possible to say a particular zone of residents supported a political party by x%, but it is not possible to narrow down the level of support to a particular block or an individual. The comments of politicians may be based on ground feel and feedback.
Q: How else can you reassure me that my vote is secret?
A: The Workers’ Party has participated in every General Election since the independence of Singapore. Based on our experience, we are certain that the vote is secret.
For anyone who is still in doubt, do bear in mind that tampering with the electoral process is illegal and tantamount to breaking the law. Doing so is not in the interest of the government as its power and legitimacy will be in question and its reputation tarnished locally and internationally. The government actually has more to lose if it fails to ensure that the vote is secret.
Q: After I have cast my vote, what happens to it?
..........Once counted, the votes, together with all the relevant records, the stubs of the ballot papers as well as unused ballot papers are sealed and transferred to the vault at the Supreme Court where they are kept for at least 6 months. The votes cannot be retrieved unless a court order is obtained on the ground of election fraud.
According to the Elections Department website, no court order has been issued to retrieve votes since Singapore conducted elections in 1948.
At the end of 6 months, the sealed votes and records will be transferred to an incineration plant for destruction. The whole procedure is witnessed by candidates/agents from all parties. The Workers’ Party has been present and has found the seals on the votes and records intact. The Workers’ Party is satisfied about voting secrecy.
.....
my question is: any opposition candidates monitoring the vault for 6 months? Anything can happen in 6 months.
Why do they need 6 months to dispose since no request for recounts?
Are opposition candidates security experts? Do they know when a seal has been tampered with? If you have read the articles posted, all seals can be defeated, ie tampered without detection.
If the boxes are sealed, do they open up the sealed boxes and check whether the records intact? if they dont opened up and send straight to incineration plants, how do they know records intact.
Regulators
30-04-11, 13:42
Do you think the opposition will allow the pap to get away scot free for this? I do not think pap members have the audacity to do this unless they want to make history by being thrown into jail for electoral fraud
my question is: any opposition candidates monitoring the vault for 6 months? Anything can happen in 6 months.
Why do they need 6 months to dispose since no request for recounts?
Are opposition candidates security experts? Do they know when a seal has been tampered with? If you have read the articles posted, all seals can be defeated, ie tampered without detection.
If the boxes are sealed, do they open up the sealed boxes and check whether the records intact? if they dont opened up and send straight to incineration plants, how do they know records intact.
...........
For anyone who is still in doubt, do bear in mind that tampering with the electoral process is illegal and tantamount to breaking the law. Doing so is not in the interest of the government as its power and legitimacy will be in question and its reputation tarnished locally and internationally. The government actually has more to lose if it fails to ensure that the vote is secret.
To quote a zen saying:
If a tree fell down in a forest and there is nobody to see it, did the tree actually fell down :cool:.
Sorry, but the 6 months or more in the vault bothers me....it is kind of illogical.
devilplate
30-04-11, 13:46
how i wish voting is not a secret!
den we can see how many ppl r wearing masks! hahaha
wenqing taught me a gd lesson......dun assume he will vote for opposition
Do you think the opposition will allow the pap to get away scot free for this? I do not think pap members have the audacity to do this unless they want to make history by being thrown into jail for electoral fraud
well, the results of who won are already known after election. Why need 6 months or more to incinerate? Any opposition asked for recount so far in history?
Not every pap members are trusted to do this deed of course.
Now with fast scanner with OCR, can scan quite fast already and compile database.
A practical purpose is:
If they can know at individual level who vote for the opposition, next election, they can gerrymander better :).
and not to fix that person for voting opposition.
my question is: any opposition candidates monitoring the vault for 6 months? Anything can happen in 6 months.
Why do they need 6 months to dispose since no request for recounts?
Are opposition candidates security experts? Do they know when a seal has been tampered with? If you have read the articles posted, all seals can be defeated, ie tampered without detection.
If the boxes are sealed, do they open up the sealed boxes and check whether the records intact? if they dont opened up and send straight to incineration plants, how do they know records intact.
whether they check or not, i believe majority do not vote opp not becos of fear
devilplate
30-04-11, 13:57
whether they check or not, i believe majority do not vote opp not becos of fear
by saying cowards vote PAP oredi a big mistake....
no matter how nicely u put across.....stand out from ur FEAR....blah blah....
its just so distasteful.....remember opposition will be scrutinised more severely....life is unfair.....so pls dun make such comments:doh:
duno wat to tok, better dun tok
dun be a empty vase tat makes the most noise....:doh:
dun be a kettle calling a pot black too.....keep saying fearmongering.....so weak:doh:
Regulators
30-04-11, 14:10
It is just a standard protocol to provide enough time for things to settle after election before destroying the votes. Issues of electoral fraud might crop up in one day, one week, one month or three months after election, so 6 months is good timing
well, the results of who won are already known after election. Why need 6 months or more to incinerate? Any opposition asked for recount so far in history?
Not every pap members are trusted to do this deed of course.
Now with fast scanner with OCR, can scan quite fast already and compile database.
A practical purpose is:
If they can know at individual level who vote for the opposition, next election, they can gerrymander better :).
and not to fix that person for voting opposition.
my question is: any opposition candidates monitoring the vault for 6 months? Anything can happen in 6 months.
Why do they need 6 months to dispose since no request for recounts?
Are opposition candidates security experts? Do they know when a seal has been tampered with? If you have read the articles posted, all seals can be defeated, ie tampered without detection.
If the boxes are sealed, do they open up the sealed boxes and check whether the records intact? if they dont opened up and send straight to incineration plants, how do they know records intact.
When the box is seals, both contesting camp's counting agent will sign on the seal. Also, the seal tapes used are "tamper prood" type.
Six months later, both camps will meet outside the vault to witness and ensure boxes are free from tampering....
You are welcome to participate as volunteer to witness the process your self if you still have doubt. :)
It is just a standard protocol to provide enough time for things to settle after election before destroying the votes. Issues of electoral fraud might crop up in one day, one week, one month or three months after election, so 6 months is good timing
Opposition is there to witness during Election day and also during vote count. They accepted the results and you meant to say 3 months later, opposition alleged electoral fraud and ask for recount?
Perhaps I dont read widely, but electoral fraud is usually alleged/accused right after election day by the losers and not after 3 months later.
Let me google for countries where electoral fraud is alleged 3 months later.
When the box is seals, both contesting camp's counting agent will sign on the seal. Also, the seal tapes used are "tamper prood" type.
Six months later, both camps will meet outside the vault to witness and ensure boxes are free from tampering....
You are welcome to participate as volunteer to witness the process your self if you still have doubt. :)
Alamak, you havent read the articles posted on seal security?
Anyway, you can google: Los Alamos Johnston Roger seal
So during the 6 months, I am correct to say nobody is monitoring the ballot boxes in the High Court Vault? Is it deep inside the High Court? And so no members of public is allowed to observe who goes in and out of High Court Vault?
As for signature wise, I dont think I can recognise whether my signature is genuine after 6 months if it is a reasonably done forgery.........
Mentioned earlier, a practical purpose of knowing voters voting records is for better gerrymandering and not out to fix.
the thing that doesn't connect is the 6 months storage.....
That is the weak link in the voting secrecy.
Perhaps I have an overactive imagination...... and watch too many TV serials.
Alamak, you havent read the articles posted on seal security?
Anyway, you can google: Los Alamos Johnston Roger seal
So during the 6 months, I am correct to say nobody is monitoring the ballot boxes in the High Court Vault? Is it deep inside the High Court? And so no members of public is allowed to observe who goes in and out of High Court Vault?
As for signature wise, I dont think I can recognise whether my signature is genuine after 6 months if it is a reasonably done forgery.........
Mentioned earlier, a practical purpose of knowing voters voting records is for better gerrymandering and not out to fix.
the thing that doesn't connect is the 6 months storage.....
That is the weak link in the voting secrecy.
Perhaps I have an overactive imagination.......
I dun't know what to say if James bond movies start coming in.... you win.:doh:
I dun't know what to say if James bond movies start coming in.... you win.:doh:
I guess PAP has easier task to manage population if people have no imagination.
Just because people think it is against the law or morally wrong to do an act, they think that other people will also not do the act.
I guess people here doesnt know the extent any rulers will go to cling on to power.
So if nobody is monitoring the High Court Vault during the 6 months,....
Think carefully, Vote wisely......
by saying cowards vote PAP oredi a big mistake....
no matter how nicely u put across.....stand out from ur FEAR....blah blah....
its just so distasteful.....remember opposition will be scrutinised more severely....life is unfair.....so pls dun make such comments:doh:
duno wat to tok, better dun tok
dun be a empty vase tat makes the most noise....:doh:
dun be a kettle calling a pot black too.....keep saying fearmongering.....so weak:doh:
You are usually unruffled man...think this GE really agitating you
U concerned about ur property prices? Go for PAP loh :D
It will be a pity if this is going to happen to a first rate garment. They will have to answer to their maker.
I guess PAP has easier task to manage population if people have no imagination.
Just because people think it is against the law or morally wrong to do an act, they think that other people will also not do the act.
I guess people here doesnt know the extent any rulers will go to cling on to power.
So if nobody is monitoring the High Court Vault during the 6 months,....
Think carefully, Vote wisely......
http://www.facebook.com/notes/richard-seah/why-i-vote-opposition/1795226559290
interesting read...
devilplate
30-04-11, 16:12
You are usually unruffled man...think this GE really agitating you
U concerned about ur property prices? Go for PAP loh :D
not due to ppty prices....see my quote: papermoney:hell-hath-no-fury:
this GE and all these discussions reminds me of the past unhappiness tat happened to me....to my frens/relatives/loved ones and those i hf seen happening to strangers.....
Life is so UNFAIR!
humans r full of SINS! all these industralisation......urbanisation......:hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury:
$$$$$ is the greatest DEVIL!:hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury:
Remember when you are young, most parents will say: Study hard, get a good paper qualification and find a good job = $. Children are drilled with this mindset since young. This generation wants make $ fast and retire early and enjoy life.
not due to ppty prices....see my quote: papermoney:hell-hath-no-fury:
this GE and all these discussions reminds me of the past unhappiness tat happened to me....to my frens/relatives/loved ones and those i hf seen happening to strangers.....
Life is so UNFAIR!
humans r full of SINS! all these industralisation......urbanisation......:hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury:
$$$$$ is the greatest DEVIL!:hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury: :hell-hath-no-fury:
devilplate
30-04-11, 17:59
Remember when you are young, most parents will say: Study hard, get a good paper qualification and find a good job = $. Children are drilled with this mindset since young. This generation wants make $ fast and retire early and enjoy life.
self fulfilling prophecy!!!!:hell-hath-no-fury:
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Positive_feedback) between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Prophecy) can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) and ancient India (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/History_of_India), it is 20th-century sociologist (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Sociologist) Robert K. Merton (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Robert_K._Merton) who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton defines self-fulfilling prophecy in the following terms: e.g. when Roxanna falsely believes her marriage will fail, her fears of such failure actually cause the marriage to fail.
The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.[1] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-merton-0)
In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.
Unfortunately, this is the teaching of many parents. I m not sure about your parents. Not sure if you have kids, but do you practice this?
self fulfilling prophecy!!!!:hell-hath-no-fury:
A self-fulfilling prophecy is a prediction that directly or indirectly causes itself to become true, by the very terms of the prophecy itself, due to positive feedback (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Positive_feedback) between belief and behavior. Although examples of such prophecies (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Prophecy) can be found in literature as far back as ancient Greece (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) and ancient India (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/History_of_India), it is 20th-century sociologist (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Sociologist) Robert K. Merton (http://forums.condosingapore.com/wiki/Robert_K._Merton) who is credited with coining the expression "self-fulfilling prophecy" and formalizing its structure and consequences. In his book Social Theory and Social Structure, Merton defines self-fulfilling prophecy in the following terms: e.g. when Roxanna falsely believes her marriage will fail, her fears of such failure actually cause the marriage to fail.
The self-fulfilling prophecy is, in the beginning, a false definition of the situation evoking a new behaviour which makes the original false conception come 'true'. This specious validity of the self-fulfilling prophecy perpetuates a reign of error. For the prophet will cite the actual course of events as proof that he was right from the very beginning.[1] (http://forums.condosingapore.com/#cite_note-merton-0)
In other words, a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy.
devilplate
30-04-11, 18:52
Unfortunately, this is the teaching of many parents. I m not sure about your parents. Not sure if you have kids, but do you practice this?
my mindset was 'opened' after i read rich dad poor dad and who moved my cheese:D
although the books r so basic....simple logics....its really enlightening.
i will urge every parents to buy these 2 books for their children instead of tat outdated and old self fulfilling prophecy;)
What a coincident, I read that 10 years ago and started applying some of the concepts and sharing them with my children too.
my mindset was 'opened' after i read rich dad poor dad and who moved my cheese:D
although the books r so basic....simple logics....its really enlightening.
i will urge every parents to buy these 2 books for their children instead of tat outdated and old self fulfilling prophecy;)
devilplate
30-04-11, 18:58
What a coincident, I read that 10 years ago and started applying some of the concepts and sharing them with my children too.
great.....leaving for another round of rally now....cya:)
Me too! Going to potong pasir.
great.....leaving for another round of rally now....cya:)
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